BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 11:56 AM

Jimmy boy,

"You are actually using the deaths of children as a propaganda exercise."

Yes, you are.


408 killed- If that is valid (ONLY source is Hamas) then HOW MANY were killed by anti-personnel warheads on Hamas rockets?

I gave you numbers before-

650- 1000 rockets HIT GAZA after being launched by Hamas.

EACH ONE will kill between 0 and 25 or so. GAZA HAS NO SHELTERS because of HAMAS using that material to make attack tunnels to threaten Israeli civilians. So it would be reasonable to use the higher end.

So IF 408 children were killed, and children are what percentage of the population- over the 31% killed, certainly- that means if ALL the HAMAS rockets are considered, EACH ONE would only have to kill 1.3 to 2 Gazans to give that number of dead kids .


1320 total dead civilians from Hamas rockets- Gee, that is about what civilians YOU claim Israel has killed TOTAL.



I am sure the actual number killed is less than that- SOME civilians ARE being used as human shields by Hamas, and at least 600 of the rockets were launched from schools, apartments, mosques and hospitals - so Israeli COUNTER-FIRE may have killed SOME civilians.


But to state that Israel has killed those 408 children, when the numbers indicate that Israel is FAR less efficient at killing Palestinian civilians than Hamas is, is plain bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 11:53 AM

251 boys and 157 girls .

How do you explain that discrepancy?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 11:31 AM

"As long as you keep repeating that 500 children have been killed by Israel in Gaza, you are supporting Hamas propaganda."
UNICEF claimed that up to August 4th, 408 Palestinian children were reported to have been killed, 31 percent of all civilian casualties. More than 70 percent of the 251 boys and 157 girls killed were 12 or younger.
An estimated 307,000 Palestinian children had been traumatised by the war.
The actual figures are unknown - you (and Israel) are trying to massage them down by claiming that some are not children.
"I have provided more than enough information about HAMAS killing kids"
You have brought up those who were supposed to have been killed while building tunnels, while at the same time ignoring the number of kids who have been killed by Israel in various incursions, or those who have died or had their health permanently destroyed due to the prevailing conditions brought about by the walls or the blockade.
You are actually using the deaths of children as a propaganda exercise.
As long as you and yours keep claiming "antisemitism you are quoting Israeli propaganda.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 10:34 AM

""Moreover," she said, "the journalists who entered Gaza were fixated on the notion of peace and on the Israeli narrative." She asserted that the foreign press was focused "on filming the places from where missiles were launched. Thus, they were collaborating with the occupation." (The Israeli army said last week that 600 of the 3,300 rockets fired into Israel over recent weeks were launched from residential areas, including schools, mosques and homes.)

"These journalists were deported from the Gaza Strip," al-Mudallal said. "The security agencies would go and have a chat with these people. They would give them some time to change their message, one way or another.

"We suffered from this problem very much," she added. "Some of the journalists who entered the Gaza Strip were under security surveillance. Even under these difficult circumstances, we managed to reach them, and tell them that what they were doing was anything but professional journalism and that it was immoral."

On Monday, the Foreign Press Association, an umbrella group representing foreign journalists working in Israel and the Palestinian Authority, issued a strongly worded condemnation of Hamas's intimidation tactics and its interference with their reporting in Gaza."




So, since Steve wants me to tell him what to think, I suggest that he look at the information that he has based his opinions on, and a evaluate how much of what he is repeating as FACT is bias from an information vacuum.


It is pointless to ask the three stooges to even think.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 09:22 AM

I hope I am.
Saying you are sorry for all the poor people is just weasel words Steve.
We all feel that and it should go without saying.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 08:35 AM

Come to think of it, you'll find (well you won't, cos you won't want to look) plenty of posts in which I have expressed sympathy for ordinary Israelis and regretted that, due to the actions of their short-sighted leaders, they can't live in peace and security, and have stated the hope that one fine day they will see through them and throw them out. I have no time for Hamas nor for the Israeli regime. I have all the sympathy in the world for people on both sides who are forced by inept leaders to live in fear and insecurity, and, in the case of many Palestinians, also under siege and in poverty. That's where I am and all this may be gleaned from my posting track record here. You're a fine one to accuse anyone else of not being even-handed, aren't you?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 08:28 AM

I have criticised Hamas many times on this forum. I have no time for Hamas nor for anyone else who invokes religion to support their cause and I'm sick of saying it. You are applying to me the same lack of principle you apply to all your nonsense here: soak up what suits your prejudices and burble on about it, ignore anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 08:23 AM

Sorry.

"You will not find a single post on this forum in which I support Hamas"

Nor any supporting Israel.
Fair and even handed, but you will not find a single post on this forum in which you criticise Hamas.

OTH, you post pages of criticism of Israel and constantly dismiss reasonable criticism of Hamas' brutalities and atrocities and war crimes.

That is biased, one-sided prejudice.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 08:22 AM

"You will not find a single post on this forum in which I support Hamas"

Nor any supporting Israel.
Fair and even handed, but you will not find a single post on this forum in which you criticise Hamas.

OTH, you post pages of criticism of Israel and constantly dismiss reasonable criticism of Hamas' brutalities and atrocities and war crimes.

That is biased, one-sided prejudice.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 07:33 AM

Steve,

Greg had nothing to do with it.


"an arch-weasel, Greg."

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 07:31 AM

Steve,

As long as you keep repeating that 500 children have been killed by Israel in Gaza, you are supporting Hamas propaganda.

I have provided more than enough information about HAMAS killing kids, and the number of HAMAS anti-personnel warheads hitting GAZA to show that:

IF there were 500 children killed in Gaza, (ONLY NUMBERS COME FROM HAMAS) HAMAS has killed the majority.
HAMAS has admitted that they killed 160 children digging tunnels TO ATTACK ISRAEL- YET YOU SAY NOTHING.

YOU ARE supporting the killing of children BY HAMAS with your attacks blaming Israel for those deaths.
You are demonstrating Anti-Semitism (BY THE EU DEFINITION) by singling out Israel for criticism while ignoring GREATER evil by other parties in the conflict. To hold Israel at fault for legally defending itself WHILE IGNORING the admitted WAR CRIMES of HAMAS qualifies you.



""The Palestinian Ambassador to the U.N. Human Rights Council, Ibrahim Khraishi admitted on a live television interview recently, in a moment of extreme candor, that Hamas are the ones perpetrating war crimes against Israel and not the other way round.

His comments, which were made on a Palestinian Authority TV interview in July and translated by MEMRI, are particularly interesting as the U.N., over the last few days, has put together a panel of so-called experts to compile a report on alleged Israeli war crimes against the Palestinians. The claims arise over Israel's actions during its recent defensive war against Hamas in Gaza, and its response to the launching of thousands of rockets and the digging of dozens of terror tunnels.

For fear of being taken to the International Criminal Court for prosecution, Khraishi advised his interviewer that it was best all round if the issue was not raised with the U.N. In his own words, "each and every" Palestinian missile fired on Israel constitutes "a crime against humanity," while he admitted that Israel "followed the legal procedures" when carrying out retaliatory attacks against Hamas terrorists, who purposely embed themselves within civilian populations.

Even a Hamas spokesman admitted on a TV interview recently that: "The Israelis warned them to evacuate their homes before the bombardment. As for the missiles launched from our side, we never warn anyone about where these missiles are about to fall or about the operations we carry out."
"

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 07:20 AM

Greggie,

Since YOU cannot be bothered to ever provide FACTS or SOURCES, I see no reason to provide mine- YOU can go find them, or even ( GASP) look for FACTS to argue that the facts provided are wrong or misused.


But you obviously would rather make personal attacks and insults than actually support your opinions with facts.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 06:14 AM

"You will not find a single post on this forum in which I support Hamas"
You are wasting your time with this serial liar Steve - he has retreated into the cowards-hole of "all critics of Israel are Antisemitics and supporters of Hams" he's not even open to an offer of a donation if he provides evidence for such statements.
I really wouldn't bother - let him go on with his example of what these pro-Israel shower-of-shits look like.
These morons are indulging in self-harm on behalf of the Jewish people - a typical example is the 'Tricycle Theatre' fiasco in London.
The theatre is one of the most progressive in the country and I was disturbed to read that it had "banned the Jewish Film Festival' it was due to hold there, according to the Israli propaganda machine and its supporters.
It turns out that The Festival was receiving Israeli Government funding and, as the Theatre wished to make its feelings know over what was happening in Gaza, and to disassociate itself from anything Israeli at the present time.
The Management asked the Festival Organisers to refuse the Grant, in return, they offered to recompense in full the loss.
Result - the organisers refused and they pulled out - and the Tricycle became "Antisemitic" and has been reported so ever since.
When I heard of the "ban" I was extremely upset, and were several Jewish friends in London - had I still been a member I would have resigned.
These morons will continue to attempt to justify the slaughter that has taken place byblaming the victims and making criticicism of Israel of Israel a no-go area - an example of how they are attempting to do so in Israel:
Jim Carroll

THE IRISH TIMES Friday, August 15,2014
ISRAEL BANS RIGHTS GROUP FROM NATIONAL SERVICE PROGRAMME
Israel has disqualified its fore¬most human rights group as a volunteer option for youths who choose civilian national service over military conscription, officials said yesterday, citing the group's criticism of the Gaza offensive.
The government move against B'Tselem, while unlikely to affect the group's operations, reflected growing anger within Israeli prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu's rightist coalition at Israeli activism it sees as stoking pro-Palestinian sympathy.
Hoping to close ranks with minority Arab citizens and ultra-Orthodox Jews exempted from the draft for ideological reasons, and to accommodate pacifists, Israel has been sponsoring alternative service in public bodies in areas such as education and health.
Civilian national service volunteers have their living expenses covered by the state and later become eligible for benefits akin to those extended to discharged soldiers.
No more staff
The government's Authority for National-Civic Service said it would stop providing staff for B'Tselem after the group argued that some military strikes in Gaza, where 1,945 Palestinians, mostly civilians, have died in a month-old war, were illegal. B'Tselem currently has one national service volunteer, authority director Bar-Shalom Jerbi told Israel's Channel 2 TV.
"The volunteers represent one camp, in that they want to contribute to the country, to society and to their community," Mr Jerbi said. "B'Tselem crossed the line in wartime [by] campaigning and inciting against the state of Israel and the Israel Defence Force, which is the most moral of armies."
B'Tselem director Haggai Elad, responding in the broadcast, described the ban as politically motivated and undemocratic. "We act out of a deep commitment to the values of the society we are part of," Mr Elad said, calling on Uri Orbach, the government minister in charge of the Authority for National-Civic Service, to overturn the decision.
Mr Orbach, a member of the ultranationalist Jewish Home party in Mr Netanyahu's government, was unmoved.
"Israel is in the midst of a difficult military and diplomatic campaign against terrorists," he said, referring to Hamas-led Gaza militants who have killed 64 Israeli soldiers and three civilians inside the Jewish state.
"An organisation that works to prove allegations that Israel is committing war crimes should be so good as to do so with its own resources and not with civilian national service volunteers and state funds."
Trim funding
Rightist lawmakers have been advancing legislation to trim foreign funding for advocacy groups they view as encouraging international censure of Israeli policies toward Palestinians. Left-wing lawmakers fear an attempt to stifle dissent.
An investigation by the UN Human Rights Council into possible war crimes committed by either side has been dismissed as a "kangaroo court" by Israel.
During the fighting, Israel's state broadcaster rejected a B'Tselem request to air names of killed Palestinian children. The group appealed to the high court of justice, which upheld the broadcaster's decision.
Meanwhile, a new, five-day truce between Israel and Ha¬mas appeared to be holding yesterday despite a shaky start, after both sides agreed to give Egyptian-brokered peace negotiations in Cairo more time to try to end the war. - (Reuters)

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 04:47 AM

The source is CNN.
It is by AH Foxman.
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/07/opinion/foxman-israel-hamas-gaza/

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 07:47 PM

Experts have revealed that it was composed by an arch-weasel, Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 06:19 PM

Source of 14 Aug 14 - 12:09 PM C&P, Bullshot?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 03:32 PM

You will not find a single post on this forum in which I support Hamas. Criticism of Israel does not amount to support of Hamas. I've criticised Hamas here many times, and you know I can't be doing with anything connected with religion of any kind. Stop being so neurotic, weasel.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 03:30 PM

It has been said that

The world knows that

On the news every day

Counts vary, but most put the numbers of

All deaths that come about as a result of this conflict are tragic.

It seems the world wakes up only

And there can be no doubt that

Weasel words, the lot. I invite you to look the term up on wiki. Then try to stop doing it, moraliser-in-chief. You're a big enough laughing stock already.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 03:29 PM

Steve,

You seem to be supporting Hamas-

160 dead kids to build attack tunnels
650- 1000 antipersonnel warheads hitting Gaza LAUNCHED BY HAMAS
Not ONE shelter built for civilians in Gaza.
When Israel warns Palestinian Civilians to evacuate a site ( being used BY HAMAS for military purposes) Hamas tells them ( and sometime forces them) to remain in the declared attack zone.

I see where YOUR morals are: The more dead Palestinian civilians, the happier you are.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 03:21 PM

You wouldn't understand "moral clarity" if it jumped up and bit you on the arse. I wonder whether five hundred dead kids would appreciate your "moral clarity" if they're up there looking down at you from somewhere.

Oops, forgot! I'll just stand out of your way while you leap around screaming that Hamas has murdered everyone murderable since before the Big Bang...

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 12:09 PM

It is time for moral clarity on Gaza. The facts bear repeating. Hamas intentionally started this conflict. Hamas militants built miles of underground tunnels -- at least 30 tunnels in all -- using about 600,000 tons of cement and other materials that could have built homes or schools for Palestinians. Instead, it went into a sickening subterranean network of tunnels designed to carry out surprise terrorist attacks across the border in Israel.

It has been said that the only real growth industries in Gaza are in rocket-building and tunnel construction. This unconscionable waste of resources has brought about the two crowning "cultural" achievements of Hamas: Thousands of rockets raining down on Israeli towns and cities and terrorists armed to the teeth emerging from holes in the ground, intent on kidnapping more Israeli soldiers and killing Israeli civilians. This culture of death is an essential part of Hamas' identity and ideology and has motivated the Hamas leaders for the more than eight years they have controlled Gaza.

The world knows that Hamas intentionally stores its rockets in homes, mosques, hospitals and schools. No matter how careful Israel tries to be in warning civilians before attacks, no matter how much restraint it exercises, Hamas has guaranteed that civilians will be victims. Children make up nearly half the population of Gaza, and so women and children are among those dying because of Hamas's maximalist strategy against Israel.

In Israel and Gaza, a war against peace

Israel did not want this war, and certainly does not want to see civilians killed. But no matter, the calumny continues to rain down on Israel. What hypocrisy this is.
Has anyone condemned Hamas for the death of 160 children during the construction of the Gaza tunnels? The Institute for Palestinian Studies reports Hamas uses child labor to build its terror tunnels and prizes their nimbleness and work ethic.
On the news every day there is the macabre body count of how many civilians have lost their lives in Gaza, invariably accompanied by a comparison with the cost of life for Israeli soldiers and civilians. Counts vary, but most put the numbers of Palestinian deaths around 1,800 and Israeli deaths at 65.

All deaths that come about as a result of this conflict are tragic. But who is taking steps to limit casualties? Israel. Who is apologizing for the loss of life in Gaza? Israel. Hamas, on the other hand, tries at every opportunity to inflict as much pain as possible on Israel, trying to kill more Israeli civilians by firing rockets at large population centers, by sending suicide bombers across the border and sacrificing the lives of their own children. They make no apologies for their culture of death.

Look out at the world, there is no shortage of horrific violence and tragic death. Death by the thousands, by the tens of thousands in Syria; human destruction in Libya, in Afghanistan, in Iraq. Muslims slaughtering Muslims. And in Iraq, Muslims are killing Christians. Why have the voices of outrage in response to the more than 170,000 dead as a result of Syria's civil war gone silent?
There are no cameras out there, there are few editorials, and there are even fewer demonstrations in the streets of Paris, of Rome or London.
Here is where moral myopia verges on moral blindness. It seems the world wakes up only when Jews in their own defense -- defending their men, women and children -- are forced to kill Muslims and Palestinians. That's when the world demonstrates.

This is the true hypocrisy of the "condemn Israel" phenomenon.

And there can be no doubt that the anti-Israel campaign that is unfolding around the world is a function of the anti-Semitism that we know lurks just underneath the surface in some European societies and is all-but rampant across the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 08:16 AM

Here is a clip of Hamas fighters setting up and launching in a civilian area.
The soldiers are in civilian clothes and would be counted as civilians if they became casualties.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/06/world/middleeast/indian-tv-crew-shows-rare-video-of-rocket-launch-from-gaza.html?action=click&

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 04:31 AM

Steve, there is undeniable proof that Hamas launches rockets and other military operations from civilian areas without evacuating.
That is what the term "human shields" refers to.
They are guilty.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 03:50 AM

Thanks for the interesting link Keith:

http://israelisoldiersmother.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/what-is-army.html

Anybody who bothered to open it should have noted the "transport" the Hamas or Islamic Jihad "fighters" with the RPG's were sitting on - in conflict zones only one organisations vehicles are painted white - those of the UN.

OK then Christmas, Greg F, Qur'an Shaw - care to tell us how and why these brave souls are pictured posing on a UN vehicle and would you as an enemy commander view them as being a legitimate military target posed as they are (I dare say the women. old men and the children are crammed in the back ready for the post strike photo-op). I take it from their uniforms that none of you clowns are going to try and claim that these tossers are part of Hamas or Islamic Jihad's Mountain and Arctic Warfare Cadre.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 06:02 PM

Let's try do be objective about an emotive and tragic issue Steve....That is the war crime of using human shields.

Let's be objective about "human shields", Keith. You have no evidence that Hamas has ever used people as human shields. It's what one always say about one's enemy in order to salve one's bad conscience regarding collateral damage (as we used to call it: "human shields" sounds like a far better excuse for killing innocent people). If you have evidence that Hamas has used human shields, then let's have it. And, as I always have to tell pete, evidence does not mean links to biased sources. You're quite good at that. Not as good as minnow bobad, of course, who is so inarticulate that biased sources are all he can manage. Or she. He could be a girl I suppose. I hope not, girls.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 05:41 PM

Gaza City (Palestinian Territories) (AFP) - A 72-hour truce between Israel and Hamas teetered on the brink of collapse Wednesday with a rocket hitting the Jewish state just hours before it expired at midnight.

Shortly before the rocket hit, an official told AFP Israel was willing to extend the lull by another three days as the Palestinians expressed hope they could reach a deal in indirect talks brokered by Egypt.

Israel police and the army said the rocket hit an open area near Gaza's northern border shortly after sirens rang out across the south.

But Hamas, Gaza's Islamist de facto rulers, said its militants were not responsible.

"Hamas denies firing any rockets towards the occupation this evening," spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said in a statement.

The attack jeopardised the hopes of millions who were banking on Egyptian mediators to clinch an agreement after days of frantic shuttle diplomacy between Israeli and Palestinian delegations.

Without agreement on an extension or a long-term truce, the two sides risk a resumption of the deadly fighting, which has killed more than 1,950 Palestinians and 67 on the Israeli side since July 8.





Not ONCE has a ceasefire run out of time- they have ALL been violated BY HAMAS before the end.

AND NOT ONCE have any of the stooges said a word about it.





They seem to WANT to have more Palestinian civilians killed by Hamas, so they can blame Israel.

What a bunch of sick SFBs.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 03:36 PM

UK announcement on arms 'exceedingly odd' — Steinitz

In a somewhat backhanded way, Strategic Affairs Minister Yuval Steinitz slams the British government's announcement to halt arms sales to Israel in case the fighting with Hamas resumes.

"I heard it, but although I have a PhD in philosophy, I didn't understand it," he says about UK Business Secretary Vince Cable's announcement that, "in the event of a resumption of significant hostilities," London will suspend 12 export licenses for equipment that could be used by the Israeli army in Gaza.

"If this is the message, this is exceedingly odd," Steinitz says at a press conference in Jerusalem. "If Hamas will choose to resume the fighting, Britain will [place] some restrictions on defense cooperation with Israel? I hope this is not the message, because this might be very encouraging for Hamas to resume fire."

Steinitz says he knows many British people and government officials and that most of them are extremely intelligent. "I don't want to believe that this is the message. So I prefer to say that I misunderstood it."

– Raphael Ahren

Read more: Rocket hits near Ashkelon, 2 hours before end of ceasefire | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/day-37-london-to-nix-some-arms-sales-to-israel-if-fighting-resumes/#ixzz3AIo80gu4

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 01:24 PM

Lucky that Jewish Palestine, before if was the state that became Israel, had an army, Haganah. They were highly trained and motivated, ready to repel that invasion of all the surrounding Arab states when it occurred.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 12:38 PM

Well thanks for that amazingly unbiased link, Keith. :-)
You only had to look at the pictures. Do you imagine they are faked?

Actually, I normally think of states having armies.
There are exceptions.
Hezbollah for instance.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 12:35 PM

Let's try do be objective about an emotive and tragic issue Steve.

The figures show that Hamas is lying about how many civilian casualties there are.
It is what you would see if soldiers were fighting from civilian areas.

That is the war crime of using human shields.
Civilian casualties are inevitable as the result of that war crime, and committing that war crime does not make it illegal to strike back at them.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 12:20 PM

Well thanks for that amazingly unbiased link, Keith. :-)

Actually, I normally think of states having armies. Now I'm getting really confused. Anyway, never mind that. What about those two-thirds of your "1431 casualties" who definitely were not in any sort of army or wotteverwewannacall it? And, by the way, Keith, do you think that dead women, old people and children care whether they're under-represented or not?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 12:03 PM

Some nice pictures of Hamas soldiers here Steve.
http://israelisoldiersmother.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/what-is-army.html

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 10:24 AM

Trouble is, bruce, I can't help harbouring this image of you, a funny little goatee-sporting goblin in a pointy hat with bells on, leaping up and down hysterically shouting about how Hamas has murdered just about everyone who has ever been murderable. What's noticeable about both you and bobad is that the chaps here who one might have thought would be your allies never, ever speak up in support of you. I reckon you probably make even Keith shift uncomfortably from buttock to buttock at times.

Go on, tell me you're really a six foot eight Adonis with a PhD in philosophy...

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 10:17 AM

Hamas does have an army of fighters, uniformed and heavily armed.

What are they called? Where are their barracks? Where do they do their drill? Hang on a mo, there's an army of peacock butterflies on my buddleia...

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 10:12 AM

Jimmy, YOU STATE:

"I suggest you back and read exactly what the ambassador said.
He points out that both the attack on civilians and homes are "crimes against humanity"
You can work out for yourself just which was the greater crime - the rockets have killed 18 in twelve years - how man was it who have been killed in the last three weeks in Gaza?
At not time does he mention the justification of either.
"Your description of what he said was not "candid" - it was a distortion"

If you cannot provide ANY indication of where you heard this, I will ( continue, as for all your post) to think you made it up. That has been your past history.



"The question of the "warnings" is a red-herring - officials at hospitals which were blitzed were given hardly any time to evacuate the buildings - an impossible task to carry out in the time.
".....when an Israeli military officer called the hospital late on Tuesday warning that it must be evacuated by 8am the following morning"
TERMINALLY ILL HOSPITAL DEFIES WARNINGS
In early attacks, staff described having been given an hour's notice"

Perhaps HAMAS should NOT have been using those buildings as military storage and command sites, WHICH REMOVES THEIR PROTECTED STATUS according to the Geneva Conventions.



" like your statement that the Gazan lad who was beaten to death by extremist Israeli thugs when you stated that it was an "honour killing" - you are once again taking Israel's word for it (that turned out to be an attempt to smear the victim."

Since I have NEVER MADE SUCH A STATEMENT, this is another of your blatant lies.



"You are once again trying to smear the victims by making them terrorists -where is your proof for any of this."

I have been akin YOU that question about your blaming Israel for Hamas rockets killing Palestinian civilians, but you seem to be incapable of addressing any request for you to provide evidence for your lies.



I cannot call you a " sordid little man" as your MANhood is in doubt- a lying kid, perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 10:08 AM

"Fighting units are legitimate targets."
You have no evidence what they are.

The casualty statistics are strong evidence.

The figures show that Hamas is lying about the number of civilian casualties, and the media has been passing their lies on to the world as UN supplied fact.
You have been deceived by them.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 10:03 AM

Hamas does have an army of fighters, uniformed and heavily armed.
Who do you think responsible for IDF's unprecedented casualties?
They launch the rockets, emerge from the tunnels and fire mortars into Israel.
They are not non-combatants and not civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 10:01 AM

Jimmy,

YOUR making statements does NOT change WHAT HE SAID:

"The Palestinian Ambassador to the U.N. Human Rights Council, Ibrahim Khraishi admitted on a live television interview recently, in a moment of extreme candor, that Hamas are the ones perpetrating war crimes against Israel and not the other way round.

His comments, which were made on a Palestinian Authority TV interview in July and translated by MEMRI, are particularly interesting as the U.N., over the last few days, has put together a panel of so-called experts to compile a report on alleged Israeli war crimes against the Palestinians. The claims arise over Israel's actions during its recent defensive war against Hamas in Gaza, and its response to the launching of thousands of rockets and the digging of dozens of terror tunnels.

For fear of being taken to the International Criminal Court for prosecution, Khraishi advised his interviewer that it was best all round if the issue was not raised with the U.N. In his own words, "each and every" Palestinian missile fired on Israel constitutes "a crime against humanity," while he admitted that Israel "followed the legal procedures" when carrying out retaliatory attacks against Hamas terrorists, who purposely embed themselves within civilian populations.

Even a Hamas spokesman admitted on a TV interview recently that: "The Israelis warned them to evacuate their homes before the bombardment. As for the missiles launched from our side, we never warn anyone about where these missiles are about to fall or about the operations we carry out."

U.N. Watch, an NGO body that monitors the U.N., reported that Ambassador Ibrahim Khraishi wasn't coy in his assertions of Palestinian war crimes. As he said himself:

"I am not a candidate in any Palestinian elections, so I don't need to win popularity among the Palestinians. The missiles that are now being launched against Israel, each and every missile constitutes a crime against humanity, whether it hits or misses, because it is directed at civilian targets."

Khraishi spelled out very clearly the fact that, in his opinion, the Israeli side followed proper war protocol, unlike the terrorist factions occupying Gaza:

"Please note that many of our people in Gaza appeared on TV and said that the Israelis warned them to evacuate their homes before the bombardment. In such a case, if someone is killed, the law considers it a mistake rather than an intentional killing because [the Israelis] followed the legal procedures."

The new U.N. commission, which was just announced, is being headed by well-known anti-Israel genocide expert William Schabas. Undoubtedly, it will make a mockery of the real facts on the ground in the ongoing conflict between the Jewish State and the Palestinians, and will likely echo the previous discredited inquiry chaired by Richard Goldstone.

based on past performance, the U.N. is unlikely to bring Hamas or the Palestinian Authority to task for firing thousands of rockets indiscriminately on Israeli towns and villages. The Hamas policy, which it does not deny, is to purposely fire those rockets from schools and mosques in the hope that Israeli retaliations would cause maximum Palestinian civilian casualties and garner world support against Israel.

The fact that Israel is being taken to task by the U.N. for alleged war crimes in Gaza is absurd, and a disgrace to the United Nations whose whole purpose is supposed to be to champion human rights and not oppress them."





YOUR comments are NOT supported by facts- YOU LIE.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 09:58 AM

Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 09:53 AM

Barking mad, Bruce, barking mad.


Is this an admission of your mental state?

I see NO factual basis to call the Palestinian Ambassador to the U.N. Human Rights Council, Ibrahim Khraishi, a liar, though YOU seem to be able to call ANYONE who disagrees with your OPINION one.

If you don't agree with what he says, why not argue THAT, instead of making unsubstantiated statements about people who report things you don't want to hear???

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 09:56 AM

"The Palestinian Ambassador to the U.N. Human Rights Council, Ibrahim Khraishi admitted on a live television interview recently, in a moment of extreme candor, that Hamas are the ones perpetrating war crimes against Israel and not the other way round."
I suggest you back and read exactly what the ambassador said.
He points out that both the attack on civilians and homes are "crimes against humanity"
You can work out for yourself just which was the greater crime - the rockets have killed 18 in twelve years - how man was it who have been killed in the last three weeks in Gaza?
At not time does he mention the justification of either.
Your description of what he said was not "candid" - it was a distortion
The question of the "warnings" is a red-herring - officials at hospitals which were blitzed were given hardly any time to evacuate the buildings - an impossible task to carry out in the time.
".....when an Israeli military officer called the hospital late on Tuesday warning that it must be evacuated by 8am the following morning"
TERMINALLY ILL HOSPITAL DEFIES WARNINGS
In early attacks, staff described having been given an hour's notice
"Fighting units are legitimate targets."
You have no evidence what they are, but like your statement that the Gazan lad who was beaten to death by extremist Israeli thugs when you stated that it was an "honour killing" - you are once again taking Israel's word for it (that turned out to be an attempt to smear the victim.
You are once again trying to smear the victims by making them terrorists -where is your proof for any of this.
You are a sordid little man   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 09:53 AM

Barking mad, Bruce, barking mad.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 09:51 AM

Well, Top Cat, let's have a little think about this. Do Hamas have an army? Hmm, well no, not really. You wouldn't really want them to have one, would you? So what is a "civilian" then? If an Israeli soldier burst into my house, threatened my wife and kids, I punched his nose and made him scarper - well am a I still a civilian? Freedom fighter? Terrorist maybe? Military man? Would it be different if I'd cracked him over the head with a machete instead of punching him? You see, the reason you're trying to make a lot of this is that you would far rather dwell on the one-third of your "1431 casualties" who might just have been involved in the fighting (not forgetting, of course, that many might not have been, and neither you nor I has figures to put on that), and try to divert us away from the other two-thirds, who were definitely not involved in the fighting, and which included, among many other innocents such as women and elderly people, about 500 children. Or perhaps you'd like to persuade us that those kids were all carrying grenades or something. I wouldn't put it past you.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 09:34 AM

That was my point.
Why do you say it is not?
The figures show that Hamas is lying about the number of civilian casualties, and the media has been passing their lies on to the world as UN supplied fact.
You have been deceived by them.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 09:32 AM

"Khraishi spelled out very clearly the fact that, in his opinion, the Israeli side followed proper war protocol, unlike the terrorist factions occupying Gaza:

"Please note that many of our people in Gaza appeared on TV and said that the Israelis warned them to evacuate their homes before the bombardment. In such a case, if someone is killed, the law considers it a mistake rather than an intentional killing because [the Israelis] followed the legal procedures."
"

So ONLY HAMAS has been murdering Palestinian civilians, regardless of what the three stooges have claimed.

At least according to the Palestinian Ambassador to the U.N. Human Rights Council, Ibrahim Khraishi.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 09:31 AM

Yes, not very nice, Michael. But you're Islamophobic because, unlike me, you focus only on atrocities (and atrocities they are, as you'll note I'm always at pains to point out) perpetrated by the one side. I'm perfectly happy to condemn all your highlighted "Islamic" atrocities as atrocities. Even Hamas rockets aimed at civilians (though I haven't worked out how else they can resist - cue pointless lecture from Keith). But the really nasty thing is that you choose to rail against "Islamic" crimes (though crimes not sanctioned by the holy text) during the very month that 500 children have been slaughtered by the nation that you're merely "disappointed" by.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 09:24 AM

That wasn't your point, Tee Cee. Stop moving the goalposts. Some of us notice when you do that. We're not all Top Cats, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 08:45 AM

Steve,
Yes. In fighting units the world over, armies, navies, militias, whatever, men aged 20 to 29 are going to be over-represented.

Fighting units are legitimate targets.
Hamas claims they are civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 08:36 AM

Have no extensive statistics to hand; but some will be found in following from Wikipedia, which I copy just as a kind of 'for example' of the sorts of things I am on about. I have hilighted a couple of passages, inc those noting penalties for offences not even illegal in most places:

=====================================================

Corporal and capital punishment in Saudi Arabia
Judicial corporal punishment --- In Saudi Arabia this includes amputations of hands and feet for robbery, and flogging for lesser crimes such as "sexual deviance" and drunkenness. In the 2000s, it was reported that women were sentenced to lashes for adultery; the women were actually victims of rape, but because they could not prove who the perpetrators were, they were deemed guilty of committing adultery.[12] The number of lashes is not clearly prescribed by law and is varied according to the discretion of judges, and ranges from dozens of lashes to several hundreds, usually applied over a period of weeks or months. In 2004, the United Nations Committee Against Torture criticized Saudi Arabia over the amputations and floggings it carries out under Sharia. The Saudi delegation responded defending "legal traditions" held since the inception of Islam 1,400 years ago and rejected interference in its legal system.
Saudi Arabia also engages in capital punishment, including public executions by beheading.[13] The death penalty can be imposed for a wide range of offences[14] including murder, rape, armed robbery, repeated drug use, apostasy,[15] adultery,[16] witchcraft and sorcery[17] and can be carried out by beheading with a sword,[15] stoning or firing squad,[16] followed by crucifixion.[17] In 2005 there were 191 executions, in 2006 there were 38, in 2007 there were 153, and in 2008 there were 102.[18]
============================================================

All most praiseworthy & hunky·dory to Steve & all our other Islamophiles, no doubt.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 08:26 AM

That anomaly requires explanation.

Have done so twice already. Try to keep up, Top Cat.

The most likely would be that Hamas is lying about the status of its casualties.

Look up "weasel words" on wiki.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 08:15 AM

Children and females are under-represented, all males are over-represented, and young men very over-represented.

That anomaly requires explanation.
The most likely would be that Hamas is lying about the status of its casualties.
Have you another?

Yes. In fighting units the world over, armies, navies, militias, whatever, men aged 20 to 29 are going to be over-represented. They are the ones doing the shooting and the ones who get shot at. Yours sincerely, Steve, Professor of Plain-As-The-Nose-On-Your-Face, University of the Bleedin' Obvious. What is it Musket calls you? Not Top Cat, is it?