Folk Club Manners

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:10 PM

If you can't see the conceit, the only reply I could make would appear rude, and as yet you have not quite driven me to that.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:07 PM

I urge everyone to go back and read 'Treewind's wise words of 21st October, 7:31 am. To quote him:

"It's not about how good you are, it's about how much effort you make."

Exactly!!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 03:45 PM

>>I wonder how a local amateur dramatic or light opera society would react to somebody knocking on their door demanding a part in their latest production - it seems acceptable behaviour at folk clubs, judging by some of the responses here.

My experience of amateur dramatics is very much that people come along with a wide spectrum of talent and are usually found a spot somewhere within a production which echoes that talent. Much like folk clubs though they rarely DEMAND (your words) but ask.

Where things perhaps differ is that in some folk places the people who run things seem to have no mechanism for dealing with people who have a surfeit of confidence and/or a dearth of talent. Places that are clear about what the are trying to do (whatever that might be) rarely seem to stumble at that minor hurdle, and my experience seem to deal with it quite easily.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 02:57 PM

RichardBridge,please show what these conceited remarks were.here are my posts.
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:09 PM

The objective, really for the singer is to create a situation where when he starts to sing he's no longer worried about technique, he's done all that, and he can give the whole of his or her attention to the song itself she can give her or he can give his whole attention to the sheer act of enjoying the song".
Jim Carroll.
EVERYONE, PLEASE TAKE NOTE.
If you are serious about encouraging new singers run a workshop.[jim carroll].
yes,and perhaps instrument workshops too.
The sign of a good club [imo]is among other things good organisation,it is perfectly possible and can be acceptable if a weak singer,is followed by a good singer or a resident,so this is the reponsibilty of the organiser or mc.
in this way singers who may or may have potential[but need help] can be encouraged,and sandwiched between good performers,making it more acceptable for the paying public.
Bad Manners,does come in all shapes and sizes,it is the responsibility of the organiser,to have a decent mc,so that everyone gets a proper introduction,and gets the guests name correct[it happens more frequently than one thinks]
some while ago,I was guesting at a folk festival.and the MC[a professional performer himself,introduced me ;now we have Dick Miles,what sort of a bloody introduction is that.
this MC was paid to be at that festival,whether he likes the performer or not,he is paid to present and introduce people properly,this involves at the very least,stating what the performer does [plays concertina sings traditional songs is over here on tour from Ireland etc etc]and convincing the audience that the person is good.
3.From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 04:45 PM
4 .Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:01 AM

running workshops is good but running workshops successfully requires skill and diplomacy and tact.
firstly singers should not be told they must sing in a certain way[stylistically],
workshops should concentrate upon improving technique,suggestions can be made,directing the singer to recordings of differing singers that the person might benefit from listening to.,and then let the person chhose their own direction,suggestions can be made that a singer might be more suited to singing shanties or whatever,but that is about as far as you should go.
the singer has to make their own decisions,telling people what to/ or how to sing will often be counter productive and is bad manners.
it is also bad manners,to say to a performer while they are on stage: we dont allow political songs here,or you must only sing songs from your own culture or in your own accent[ Ibelieve this is what happened to Lisa Turner,a fine blues singer at the ballad and blues club,or was it Maccoll/Seegers singers club].
A club may have rules,but the time to sort that out is not on stage,but during the break or afterward

Songs should be performed without any crutches.
if a performer forgets the words,they should keep cool, ad lib,and/or carry on to the next verse,that is what performing is all about,
5.Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:13 AM

,when I started as a floor singer 1971,the competition was tough,nobody ever sang songs with words in front of them.
I can remember going out to the toilet to run through words ,to make sure I had it right,if you werent any good you didnt get a chance to sing the next week,if a performer forgot a word they carried on,we had to learn how to perform,as we were doing it,and that[ imo] is the only way.
I experienced all those things as a newbie performer,but I got up and did it,I practised a lot before I went on,if i played a wrong chord aor sang a wrong word [I let it go ,and made sure I got the next verse right].
making a mistake can happen to anyone,the most important thing is to learn to feel at ease,whilst performing,[this is what the alexander technique is about],throw away your word sheets,if you make a mistake,make it up or make a joke.,carry on,nerves have to be conquered.
on the other hand Iwould never criticise anyone in a club if they were singing with words [if I was guesting,or whatever],Iam not that bad mannered,I am just stating my opinion
those are my posts to date Richard Bridge,what the fuck are you on about,you may be having a bad day,but you want to get your facts right,what is conceited in those posts.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Amber
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 02:56 PM

It seems very clear to me that there are different sorts of folk clubs - those who welcome performers of all standards and are ready to give encouragement, support and help when needed - then those which insist on a standard which many can never reach,although not through the want of trying.For heavens sake whats wrong with giving EVERYONE who is keen enough to attend a song or two if they want - with or without the words, which so many catters are saying they find helpful? I don't mean we don't want to encourage people to develop and improve as singers but we are not talking concerts here!

Yer pays yer money and yer makes yer choice!

Amber

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Aeola
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 02:55 PM

I saw Les Barker reading from a book, He didn't half make it sound good!!!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 02:50 PM

"Over the past couple of years I have had some of the most enjoyable times of my life playing music and singing and I owe a huge debt to the people who have encouraged and put up with my improving efforts over the last 6 years. I think that had I been faced with the attitudes of some of the people on this thread then I would probably not have had the resilience to have kept trying because I spent the best part of forty-eight years not playing in front of people. Earlier this year I sang at a beer festival in front of a few hundred people and there is no way in the world I would have - or could have - done that five years ago."
And having experienced that from others having the generousity to extend the same kindness and encouragemnet to others.
Thank the big capo in the sky there are more people around like Nick
than there are the others.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 02:39 PM

The question remains unanswered as far as I'm concerned.
Should there be a standard beneath which a club does not drop? - it really doesn't get any more complicated than that.
I wonder how a local amateur dramatic or light opera society would react to somebody knocking on their door demanding a part in their latest production - it seems acceptable behaviour at folk clubs, judging by some of the responses here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 02:22 PM

"I think flicking through folders of words to decide what you're going to sing next when others are doing their bit can be a bit offputting."

Guilty as charged. Panic makes me rifle through my little binder o'songs even though I typically put a number of planned songs in the front, just so I won't do this. And yes I need the words because brain will freeze in mid song.   I do get fearful through out the session that maybe I don't know a song well enough or feel the mood isn't right for what I previously selected. I try to do my searches for another song on the sly though not always successful.

As to noise and talking and crisp munching, though I typically pay attention to performers, I like it kind of boisterous when it comes to my turn (only in sing around sessions - no floor spots for me). The busier and noisier it is the less inclined I am to panic. I feel kind of hidden in the crowd and that lends me confidence. I tend to really belt out in that "safe" environment.

Quite daunting though, when the room shuts up and people start filtering in from other rooms and from outside the pub once I start singing. This is precisely when I find I need the words.   

Moral of the story? Please go easy on us toddler and/or doddering folkies. We are learning and/or fogetting how to behave in folk settings.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 01:40 PM

No, captain, you got attacked because you made some very conceited remarks.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 01:01 PM

in one of my earlier posts,I stated clearly,that we all make mistakes.everbody [ myself included occassionally forgets words]ElvisPresley forgot are you lonesome tonight,but no one cared because Presley handled it right.
that is what performing is about.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Girl Friday
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 12:50 PM

What do you suggest we melodeon players can do to stop guitarists joining in with the wrong rhythm(Grin)?

For that matter, what do you guitarists do about the piano accordions? Or the man with the bag of whistles?

Mumblin' Len's advice. Use the singing cowboys's tequnique(Roy Rogers?) in Son of Paleface. Rifle inside the guitar.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Drowning Fish
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 12:39 PM

Our local club is probably a bit different in it's attitude to audience noise. As long as it's kept to a decent level nobody minds. Many people come to the club who would not step over the threshold if it had a 'silence when the artist is performing' policy. This isn't to say that sometimes you can hear a pin drop in the place! I've been a regular for the last couple of years and prefer the relaxed atmosphere that exists, rather than the way clubs were in the late 70's and 80's where everyone sat so silently it was almost funerial. Harvey Andrews loved it! Anyone who so much as whispered to the person next to them was withered by the glare of 'The Organiser'. Give me real people, real ale and a vibrant folk club anyday. All performers of all abilities and musical skills are encouraged and enjoyed at our club and long may it continue!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 12:31 PM

because I have a different opinion,I am subjected to a personal attack from Richard Bridge.
right Richard Bridge here are some facts,I have ben professional for 35 years, made 4 cds ,5 lps,one of which Martin Carthy played guitar,one of which A Concertina Compilation,featured John Kirkpatrick.
neither of these two would associate with me on a recording if they did not rate me.
Dave Bryant regularly booked me at clubs he ran.
Iwas gigging before Eliza[that doesnt mean I am any better,just different],but I have had long experience,so I am reasonably well qualified to talk about changes in folk clubs over 40 years.
both you and Amber have completely over reacted to my opinion,at what point have I been ungracious?
as Jim Carroll says its not about being better than someone,its about feeling at ease with songs so that youcan perform them well.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: John Routledge
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 11:22 AM

Nick - you would have survived because you are prepared to put the effort in and you care.

The rest of this post would have been what Silas just said but longer :0)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 11:18 AM

"If you have a novice who is prepared to put a bit of effort in and practice and have some idea of where he is trying to get, he would have my support and the support of most people I know. Its the lazy bastards who just about manage to string three chords together, have a looseleaf binder with 100 or more songs in that they don't know and have probably never played who set out to 'entertain' us. They never practice any song, they can't sing in tune, their timing is all over the place."

Silas, those words should be pasted up on the walls of every folk club in the land!!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,James H
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 11:17 AM

I've read the thread so far and am currently cogitating on my biggest frustration with a regular folk club I go to.

said club is quite small - 10 or so 'regulars', another 20 or so 'occasionals', and once in a blue moon everybody turns up at once. It's a far more fun evening when there are more people there - more voices to join in the choruses, a bigger variety of material... but when it's quiet it gets dominated by one of the regulars who seems to do most of the things listed above as pet hates - she reads off the words, stumbling and forgetting the tune as she goes, does songs that she happily announces she's only just found (or written) and then stops half way through... I'm sure you can imagine.

Now, we're a friendly club. Nobody has actually said anything bad to her (that I'm aware of) about her performances and we all listen carefully, try and join in the places she wants us to join in, and clap, politely if not enthusiastically. Various of the people who know her fairly well have, I think, made gentle supportive suggestions along the way, about type of material or delivery or whatever, and over the 5 years or so she's been coming a long she has improved a little tiny bit, and seems to really enjoy herself. She starts fewer songs, proportionally, than any of the other regulars, which is I think because she's self aware enough to realise that the applause for her stuff is sometimes a bit... polite shall I say.

Now, I don't have a problem with her coming and I want to be supportive... but I do worry that she puts other people off coming. The club is only just sustaining itself in terms of attendance, and we'd love there to be more regulars who are strong singers, so that every time it could be like the fun nights when all the regulars and occasionals turn up at once. But if someone new turns up and their first impression is that they'd have to sit and listen to bad songs done badly... they may well not come back. I do know quite a few local folkies who only turn up *very* occasionally and I know that in some cases it is precisely because of this woman. So the club suffers for the sake of being nice to one person.

so what do we do? unless she changes her attitude to the whole thing, I don't see her having got any better in the *next* five years either - maybe a tiny bit, but she's got a long way to go. The club might have folded by then for lack of numbers... or we bite the bullet and are a bit more bluntly honest with her, which might upset her and she might stop coming, which would probably be better for the club, although we'd all feel like horrible people – and I get the feeling half the people on this thread would condemn us for being cruel & unsupportive. Or am I wrong?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 11:13 AM

Hi Nick, just listned to your link - very nice indeed, I could listen to singing like that all night - really.

If you have a novice who is prepared to put a bit of effort in and practice and have some idea of where he is trying to get, he would have my support and the support of most people I know. Its the lazy bastards who just about manage to string three chords together, have a looseleaf binder with 100 or more songs in that they don't know and have probably never played who set out to 'entertain' us. They never practice any song, they can't sing in tune, their timing is all over the place.

Life is too short to be bothering with shit like that.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 10:46 AM

From: GUEST,LDT - PM

"'Do you have trouble whistling a melody?.'
Yep. I even have trouble whistling! lol! (usually I get a long whistle so high only dogs can hear it.) And don't suggest humming or singing either...I can't hold a tune to save my life.
;)

I am unfortunately not naturally musical....and envy those who take to it naturally. For me its a lot of hard work and concentration."

Okay, so that might not be the right approach. However, what I first wrote still applies. The way to memorize _anything_ is frequent repetition.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 10:41 AM

You won't hear the applause just playing on Youtube.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 10:37 AM

Over the past couple of years I have had some of the most enjoyable times of my life playing music and singing and I owe a huge debt to the people who have encouraged and put up with my improving efforts over the last 6 years. I think that had I been faced with the attitudes of some of the people on this thread then I would probably not have had the resilience to have kept trying because I spent the best part of forty-eight years not playing in front of people. Earlier this year I sang at a beer festival in front of a few hundred people and there is no way in the world I would have - or could have - done that five years ago.

But from some of the comments of people on this thread I think I'd have been weedkillered out of existence before my shoots were much out of the ground so that a fully grown shrub could have been substituted - either for their instant gratification or for the sake of quality. Thank f*** I didn't meet them at the wrong time.

So on a positive note I thank the people who put up with my faltering efforts at starting to sing, my acute shyness and the times when I've died in the friendliest of surroundings much to my chagrin and no doubt the listeners' frustration and embarrassment.

So - because it's another side of good manners - let me give out some thanks to a few people who come to mind: my local friends and visitors to Flaxton (formerly the Blacksmiths Arms in Farlington); Ossonflags; Gedpipes; Linda Kelly and Hazel of Hissyfit; lots of folk in Beverley; Mark Kane; all the people I've sat in sessions with from Sidmouth to the Isle of Arran who hopefully have enjoyed some of the things I have played and that we've shared with each other. Just a few of the people who have been a real encouragement and opened a load of doors and avenues.

And to those of you who would discourage people from contributing - bollocks to you.

From my end I practice hard and learn more and reckon I get better as I play with better people. Hopefully in turn we encourage people in the weekly gathering we organise (?!) to get involved if they want to and go out of our way to make it easy for people to feel at home rather than exclusive and up our own arses. Personally I get a huge buzz out of having seen people I know go from non-participators to (in some cases) solo performers at folk festivals within a two year period. They work very hard at what they do I know but if the door had been slammed shut in their face before they had hardly begun then I don't think they would have done that. And for those who will never get to that level it is as satisfying to see that they have battled against all sorts of stuff and done as well as they could.

But I do share some of the frustrations voiced here (and, yes, there are people I race for the loo as their turn approaches) :- of people who never get any better (but I guess that's their choice) who feel they have reached their best even if others know they haven't; of people whose ego and self confidence far outweighs their talent (and there are a LOT of them out there); of people who impose their view of a song or a tune on others rather than use their ears and listen to the singer or soloist; people who can't play in time; people who spoil other people's music by imposing their own; narrow minded bigots and those who 'know what is right and what is the only way to do things' etc

When some friends and I played recently at a hall in a local village to a group of people they commented afterwards how they noticed how many times various of us would close their eyes as they sang and wondered why. What is perhaps curious about this is that a good half of the people that evening had the words written out 'just in case'. I suppose it comes down to that strange phenomenon of see through eyelids or perhaps some of us just like a safety net there in case we should fall.

I enjoy singing and playing in singarounds and sessions but doubt that I will ever get booked as a solo act in a folk club (so as people know where I'm coming from I sound roughly like this - it's recorded in my car during lunchtime at work as I wanted to sing it at our singaround so it's full of mistakes and only the third time I'd sung it and the guitar is very basic and and ... all the usual excuses :)!!) but I sing and play in a couple of groups and am happy in that environment and people seem to like us because they invite us back (we do have a mighty good lead singer though!). But I must be like hundreds or thousands of others who do the same and just enjoy doing it for the fun of it all; for the social bit of it all; for the joy of making music TOGETHER rather than apart; for the hope of improvement; for how happy it makes me. For me that is also something about what folk music should be about (though I totally realise it isn't a definition of it lest we bounce off at a tangent into oblivion)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 10:37 AM

Thanks for the suggestions though. I think I may be a lost cause...and won't be inflicting my poor attempts on anyone except on youtube.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 10:34 AM

"Do you have trouble whistling a melody?."
Yep. I even have trouble whistling! lol! (usually I get a long whistle so high only dogs can hear it.) And don't suggest humming or singing either...I can't hold a tune to save my life.
;)

I am unfortunately not naturally musical....and envy those who take to it naturally. For me its a lot of hard work and concentration.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 10:26 AM

From: GUEST,LDT - PM
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 09:00 AM

"I can't remember music off by heart...any tips for how to?"

Measure by measure. Repeat a measure until you can play it without looking at the music (assuming you're learning from music). Then learn the next one the same way. Then try to play both together, referring back to the music until you can do it without looking. Continue memorizing small segments and combining them into larger ones. It requires lots of repetition. It will probably take a couple of days and when you go back to it, you will find that you've forgotten a lot of what you could do, but it will be easier to learn it the second time.

Some people find visualization helpful. I don't particularly like this technique and never use it for memorizing music.

Really, what I find helps the most is the ability to play by ear and basic knowledge of harmony. That way, it's not really necessary to memorize something perfectly, since one eventually comes to "just know" what's coming next. It's taken me a long time and I'm far from perfect, but I have noticed a big improvement in my ability to do this recently. I find that it makes it much easier to figure out songs, too.

Many songs have simple harmonies, too. If you can "feel" when a tonic, sub-dominant or dominant is coming, you don't need to sit down and memorize the song. I find I'm sometimes able to do this when playing without too many mistakes, but I need to be playing; I can't do it without a guitar. Perhaps that will come.

Do you have trouble whistling a melody? Most people, even non-musicians, don't. The trick is to be able to do that on one's instrument. I wish someone had told me this when I was a child taking music lessons. If you've got the melody, the chords are usually (but not always) a piece of cake.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 09:56 AM

Hi LDT yes
If I had any tips I wouldn't have the problem :-) but it really only applies to concertina. does anyone else have a 'selective' memory for just one aspect of music?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 09:00 AM

"LDT shouldn't you be practicing concertina or are you using a time machine?"
actually I should be working 'sussh' ;) (your from c.net I'm guessing)

I can't remember music off by heart...any tips for how to? I've tried the old trick of associating the thing you want to remember with a familiar object...but its not working for notes. I have a hard enough time playing the right thing with it written down in front of me, my fingers seem to have a different idea to my brain.

I don't think I could perform in public....I get nervous if I even think someone is listening.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 08:52 AM

No problem withb people who site read music - different thing altogether.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 08:51 AM

Hi
LDT shouldn't you be practicing concertina or are you using a time machine?

Whilst I personally prefer not to use a'crib' sheet I do have a problem playing concertina without having 'dots' -guitar -no problem, words-not too much of a problem tho' i have been known to 're-write' a song as the words 'disappear' from memory and 'new' ones 'appear'. I do wonder why it is acceptable for orchestras to use music, for choirs to use music, for opera (recital) singers to use music but not acceptable for 'amateur' performers in folk music to do the same. Are we saying that these professional performers can't be good enough because they use music? Is it just in folk music?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: mattkeen
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:46 AM

Surely its about context

Be equal let everybody have a go IN A SINGAROUND OR SESSION

Good and capable performers in performances though


Discrete back up sheet is ok for a while providing the performance is good

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:44 AM

he started jumping in at every lul in the evening and was doing up to NINE songs in an evening

Perhaps if this starts happening the "jump in when ready" approach needs to be tempered by a bit of firm-but-fair MCing. JIWR is brilliant when it works - I love the flow of song from one voice to the next - but I don't think "have you got one for us, Silas?" disrupts the flow or harshes the buzz excessively. Or "have you got another one for us, Pip?" That works very well, I find.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Amber
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:43 AM

Please don't let put you off Guest LTD. Most folk clubs are really warm, friendly and supportive.

Amber

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,baz parkes
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:42 AM

So do we/would we ban the Coppers (Young or Old...I'm being rhetorical here)for using the famous Book?...:-)

Baz

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: treewind
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:31 AM

Look, lets get this "words on paper" thing straight...

There is a HUGE difference between:
(1) learning a song (really learning it) and taking a crib sheet in case you forget the words,
and
(2) not learning a song at all, and reading it all, - no question of forgetting the words because you've never learned them in the first place.

It's the same with all other technique whether playing an instrument or singing. We don't all have the same abilities or skills but we do owe it to our audience to spend some time at home practicing what we do to the best (or something approaching it) of OUR ability.

It's elitist to put down somebody who's basically not very talented but is making an effort, and IMO it's quite right to chastise someone who quite clearly can't be arsed to practice or learn anything and is wasting everyone's time.

Even the most musically illiterate audience member can tell the difference. It's not about how good you are, it's about how much effort you make.

(I think I posted something like this earlier, but it didn't seem to stick)
Anahata

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:02 AM

Capos have two uses. One is for getting into either Ab or F#, the 6 black notes soon sort out all but the best squeezers and tootlers. But the other is for the sound palette. I doubt if anyone could do some of the songs I use a partial capo for, anything like the way I do them (you might not like it but that's a different issue) in the keys I do them, without a partial capo. It's not because I'm brilliant - I'm not, it's the capos.

Sneering at them is stupid.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 06:56 AM

Manitas - Wire cutters, a sharp knife and a welding torch are all useful tools when faced with those problems!

Seriously though how many people have arranged tunes or songs with "interesting" chord patterns only to have the effect ruined by the three chord trick strummers who insist on joining in anything that's being played.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 06:55 AM

OK, we had an issue some months ago. A certain person who had been attending our club (Its a session club really - nothing too formal)decided he was going to learn to play the guitar and sing. He managed to learn a few chords and cribbed loads of lyrics from the internet and proceeded to regale us with his reditions of some of his favourite songs. He was trying to run before he could walk, which is OK, many people do this and eventually manage, with help, to get there. This guy had a really poor voice, his timing depended on how difficult the chord change was. People did try to help him, one guy offered to pop round his house and run through a couple of songs with him. He would not accept any help or take on board any crittisisms.
It was bad enough when he was doing one or two songs per night, but he started jumping in at every lul in the evening and was doing up to NINE songs in an evening. Despite the fact that when he started singing people went to the bar, bog or out for a fag and when he finished there was little or very scant aplause, it was like water off a ducks back - good performers stopped coming, people who poped in as a one off heard him and never came back. Eventually, the landlord of the pub banned him form singing. Sad, but there you are.

I play and I sing at home, I don't think my voice is too bad, but I would not like to inflict it on others - some people just can't do it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 06:48 AM

Hi Mark,

What do you suggest we melodeon players can do to stop guitarists joining in with the wrong rhythm(Grin)?

For that matter, what do you guitarists do about the piano accordions? Or the man with the bag of whistles?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 06:40 AM

I've not been to a 'folk club' before and reading this thread they sound quite scary places....like x-factor for folk music.
And so many rules. :O very daunting.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 06:36 AM

I thought a capo was an essential part of the guitarists' armoury - I mean how else do you shut up melodeon players who want to join in with your sensitive songs. Capo on the first fret and play in Ab - sorted!

Simon - The guy you referred to said to me that he had been told not to play at one club! (he didn't say which one) Since he's been coming to our club he's had all sorts of encouragement from people who give him tips on the guitar or his performance style and he's really come on. OK ocassionally he trips up as do we all but you get back on the saddle and carry on. Actually last night I personally thought everybody raised their game a bit perhaps because we had a guest on (Bryony - excellent) which we don't normally do at our place so maybe it gave people incentive to put more into it.

Cheers
Mark

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:53 AM

So who makes this distinction of who is cut out for it and who is not and 'need to be jumped on'? Who do you see as entitled do this 'jumping on', Silas? Most people who actually DO have potential, as already said, nearly everyone can improve. Many new singers who have experienced harsh, uncalled for criticism, whether it is direct or indirect, especially if the individually concerned is of an even remotely sensitive nature have been put off from ever singing again in public. IMHO a great pity.

Amber

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:52 AM

Well said Simon G. I totally agree.

In the short time I have been on the folk scene I have seen many people grow in confidence and ability because the clubs they attend have open attitudes and respect for all. I am thankful not to have seen more than a couple of Prima Donna's (or should that be Prima Dona's as they were male?) in that time. These men could sing, sure, without a crib sheet, but there was nothing in their voice that suggested feeling or emotion. They were 'delivering' a set of words, parrot fashion, as they had obviously done hundreds of times before. I was not touching at all though the subject matter should have been.

Converse to that I have heard many a good song delivered by somone reading off a crib sheet who have captured the emotion of the words. I cannot subscribe to the idea that singing off a crib sheet kills the message, or dulls the sense, as I have witnessed great songs sung by great singers... but with crib sheet.

Of course it is wonderful when you get someone who knows the words, their instrument, and can sing flawlessly. But I refuse to consider anyone as doing less than that as being some kind of sub-species. I was once at an opera work-shop, with Sherrill Milnes (a great Verdian baritone), when he came out with a comment I have always tried to remember. "Sing the song like it is the first time you have given those words to the person you are saying them to" and I try to do that even now (even with a crib sheet, or cheat sheet as I call it). In other words, don't go parrot fashion with a song. Sing it always the first time and mean it. The emotion will be built in.

Surely, the person who is singing their song off a crib sheet is quite capable of still showing emotion. They may be concentrating on the words or the music, and that may detract on occasion, but such musical nudity - singing there in front of peers - deserves our respect as they are showing all they have to give at that moment.

It is easy to snigger and denigrate someone of lesser skill. But remember we are all lesser skilled than others in our midst. Should they then snigger at us? What has been an amazing thing for me to see is how many good singers - and pro artists - show full respect to their lesser admirers and how many are more than willing to give tips and join in with helping. Many should take a leaf from their book.

Another essay. I apologise. I am just grateful I obviously attend the right kind of clubs with the right kind of folks because, without their encouragement and support, I would be far lesser a whole person than I am. I owe a lot to Folk and folks in it.

I'll shush ;-)

mp

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:32 AM

Well Simon, if you saw and heard some of the absolout dross that we sometimes get at our club, you may think it worth the risk of losing a potential good performer. I am all for encouraging people with even the slightest amount of potential, but some folk are clearly not cut out for it and need to be jumped on from a very great hight.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Simon G
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:18 AM

We went to the Room at the Top folk club last night for a fantastic evening, which welcomed all comers. As Mark Dowding said earlier in the thread we did have a couple of people, who couldn't read, come in during a song despite his very legible sign on the door.

A very well behaved audience, without the need for Mark do resort to his whip to bring them to order. It was a treat to hear people in such silence.

There was all sorts of performances, but all were enjoyable (mine might not have been, but I wasn't listening). I got the impression from everyone that they hadn't put their all into the performance.

One guy with a lovely tenor voice and a sweet guitar picking style performed two songs, he has only been singing regularly since March, so much potential you just know he is going to get better and better. It took him at least a couple of years to work up the courage to sing, because of attitudes like those exhibited by some on this thread.

Many people need lots of encouragement, not only to start singing but to continue working at it. People like Mark Dowding and Joan Blackburn to name but two locally are great at this, but we all need to take some responsibility for encouraging our fellow performers.

Artificial rules about paper, capos etc simply end up being hurdles for someone - everytime you get on you high horse someone takes a step back, someone with potential take it no further and we all loose.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:50 AM

"he can play anything in any key anywhere up the fretboard to the last fret" - only, as you correctly say, actually he can't - unless he has six fingers on his left hand. I guess you could manage some open tuning shapes over a permanent barre, for example, but the drone strings would never ring the way they are intended to do without a fixed capo.

I trained in classical guitar and frequently use the teenage frets - but I only do a handful of songs without a capo - and that's solo where I have the freedom to choose. If you play with another instrument that has it's own range issues - specially any tune-leading sonophone like fiddle or banjo, or most squeezeboxes - where cross fingering is crucial to the sound feel, you'd be a fool not to embrace the capo.

Tom

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,LJW - at work
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:32 AM

Nice one Tom - the acoustic guitar is an amazing instrument made even more versatile with use of a capo. A friend of mine is a fantastic guitarist who NEVER uses one because he can play anything in any key anywhere up the fretboard to the last fret - but he can't touch those beautiful sounds and colours you can reach when using one. There are many examples, but the playing of Alan Taylor comes to mind - no way could my friend get his sound.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:22 AM

Capos? A crutch for poor players? Are there really people around who think that? Lorks! Things are even worse than I thought.

In classical music, yes - blues, rock and jazz, perhaps - but there's an entire style of guitar playing (which intersects intimately with 'modern roots music') in which the use of a capo is as essential as the use of a bow to a fiddle player. (You can play the violin without, but you're not going to make the most of the instrument). Capos have been around since the invention of the guitar (Some old ones were secured through holes drilled through the neck)!

It's frequently not physically possible to make the noises you want, with the sound you want, in the key you want without a capo. You might as well suggest that a keyboard player is cheating if he uses the black keys!

Staggered of Leeds.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:06 AM

Personally I love thst line about... I don't believe in electronic tuners!

As though they're an abstract concept like god and require a belief system to sustain them.

Or, I got this from a book ....(yeh go on! blame it on the book!)

Or the Newcastle oyster catchers/South Wales steel workers/miners of South Devon - they all used a wodger at work. So when I sing, 'Haul away on me Wodger lads.....!'

Or, I've had a cold all this week and lost me voice something shocking, so I can't 'really' sing...... (ah yes! one thinks, but its 'reality' we are involved in tonight!)

Or this is my son Edgar who has been for guitar lessons and he's going to sing and play for us, 'Cocaine Blues'.

Its that sort of mismatch of material that really grabs you.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 03:40 AM

Richard,
It's not really about being as good as anybody- it's about making a reasonable attempt at a song and making it work. When I was singing, if that happened I went home happy (and hoped that at least one of the audience did likewise).
When I started to sing it was usually on CND marches or such like; some people who heard me were kind enough to encouraged me and it became my major interest. I worked at my songs and became a little better; I was invited to perform regularly, till eventually I was asked to join The Critics Group. I was never more than a competent singer but I came to value and respect the songs enough to realise that the harder you worked at them the better they got - and above all - THE SONGS WERE WORTH THE EFFORT.
In the seventies I found my interests expanding into other fields of folk music so I wasn't putting in the time - my singing deteriorated and I wasn't prepared to sing in public on automatic pilot, so I stopped (basically because I stopped enjoying it). Nowadays, if I am pressed to sing (it happens a lot over here) I will fall back on the two or three songs I constantly sing about the house because I know I won't make a complete hames of them; I seldom enjoy singing them because, as much as I still like them, I no longer connect with them - I don't see the pictures any more.
For me, it can never be about competing with other singers, nor can it be about having an audience - it has to be about that beautiful moment when the song takes over - when it becomes part of you, and when you become part of it, that has to be the objective of a singer or they become little more than clever parrots reciting words they don't understand.
I have said a hundred times before - ANYBODY (unless they have a physical problem) IS CAPABLE OF BEING A GOOD SINGER. In forty plus years of involvement, at least twenty of those spent involved in singing workshops, I have never met anybody who is genuinely 'tone deaf'. True, some have to work harder than others, BUT ALMOST ANYBODY CAN SING if they work at it.
If in the end someone finds they are 'tone-deaf', isn't it a little bizarre to try to sing publicly - rather like that wonderfully tasteless Monty Python sketch about the one-legged actor auditioning for the role of Tarzan.
I believe the secret (no secret really) lies in the work, putting in the time, whether you do it on your own or with others.
Sticking non-singing singers in front of an audience like so many 'Florence Foster Jenkins' is not the way to do it - that's cruel - to the singer, to the listener, to the song and to the tradition.
MacColl used to talk about the feeling of 'having the right to be there because you knew that you had something to say' - that's when you are ready and that's when you start to sing well.
Crib sheets
There are ways of dealing with a flagging memory, but again I believe that has to be offstage, not in public. The minute I see somebody using one I automatically think "they're not feeling the song; they're reading it" and I ceased to be convinced - even if it's word and note perfect.
One of the simplest ways of dealing with a song you think you might forget is to rehearse it at double speed (and not to sing it until you get it word perfect that way).
Another is to 'tell' the song as a story using your own words so that you become totally immersed in it as a plot rather than a text.
I watched MacColl as he got old and began forgetting the words, but he was so steeped in the language of the songs he was singing that he always managed an on-the-spot repair repair so only those who knew his singing intimately noticed.
Surely it has to be about singing the song and not the words (I think the Cap'n already said that).
It may well be that we become too old to do what we want to do, Joe Heaney once told us rather plaintively that "It now takes me all night to do what I used to do all night". Some of the source singers we met were in their eighties, and even nineties and, while they might not remember what they had for breakfast that day, they could give us songs that they hadn't sung for half a century (sometimes they had to work on them, sometimes, like MacColl, they patched them up as they went along - but they eventually got there).
For me, isn't it about being a singer (an interpreter of songs) rather than a 'performer' or rememberer of songs?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 02:52 AM

From: weelittledrummer - PM
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:49 PM

"I just got my guitar out after twenty years this afternoon, so I AM sorry if its not in tune [...]"

Oh, no! I say, "I can't understand it, I only tuned it last week!" You mean, it's not original?!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:49 PM

well i can appreciate some people have real difficulty in learning songs. and if they need crib sheets fair enough - no one would want their voices to be stilled, I hope.

But breathes there a soul so dull, who doesn't give an inward sigh of grief when he hears the words - I wrote this, this afternoon and I might get it wrong; or I haven't sung this one for twenty years but I was thinking when I was driving here, I' d like to sing it tonite its just the words and tune I've forgotten: and that old chestnut - I just got my guitar out after twenty years this afternoon, so I AM sorry if its not in tune, but I don't pretend to be an expert; or I got these uillean pipes off e bay last week - look they're new in the box and they're dead easy.......

I mean seriously sometimes you can feel the whole room mentally reaching for the machine guns. The Americans are so brave letting everyone have access to firearms.