When is it time to leave a band?

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: hesperis
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 12:09 PM

I was invited to join a band by the bandleader. All the guys are very dedicated, awesome people,and quite probably better musicians than I am. (I've never had to write songs with other people before and my memory is shit right now because of life issues so once a riff is played I can't remember it afterwards especially when someone else is noodling.)

However, the rest of the band wants a more democratic process and a slightly different sound than the bandleader does. Really not sure how to handle moving towards a democratic base without hurting the guy's feelings.

Leaving is not an option. I need to learn what I can and they need to get used to playing with a singer who isn't familiar to them. :)

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST,MadDwg
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 09:05 PM

Hey WYSIWYG: I was once in a band that recorded and released an album.
We were quite good! Unfortunately, one of the members was strapped for cash and felt set upon to "donate" his vehicle along with everyone else's to transport the band and its gear. So, he decided to request payment by the mile as reimbursement. Unfortunately, those of us who drove did so as well, using "government" stats as the guideline. Therefore, most of the gig pay went to transport. Of the 5, I was the only one who had a "real" 9 to 5 5 day a week job. Two members were part time guitar and mandoling teachers and one even was taking mandolin lessons from a local mandolin virtuoso of international fame, so he could not make ends meet. When it was decided that our success was such that we could buy a used Greyhound bus and outfit it ourselves, with the help of a financnial backer, two members decided that was that, including the one who started the whole reimbursment deal. The decision to quit was made solely on financial reasons as well as emotional reasons. Rules are great! Policies are great! Just when the policy is initially made, write it down and agre to it and NEVER WAIVER!!! We NEVER agreed to the reimbursment plan, we just greedily did it!

When is it time to leave? When unrealitic demands are made of the group, such as threatening its rinancial health. IF the group is together for th fun of it, than leave when you aren't having anymore fun. If you can't exist with an "all for one and one for all" attitude and can't remember there is no "I" in "TEAM", then leave. No amount of clerical intervnetion is going to change anything. And feelings have toenter into it. Afterall, we areonly human and our feelings are one of the reasons were are humn!

BTW, Susan, W L D's proposal of bigamy sounds like it might be fun, but one heck of a swim!

MadDawg

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 10:22 AM

Outsiders view.
There seem to be two problems

1) the songs haven't got notation.
2) the newer songs aren't as popular.

easy solutions to both problems.
1) Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.
This is a job for a very specific skill. A good transcriber could do half a dozen hymn tunes in hour. Pay him out of church funds. Your local musicians union should know someone who is good and fast.
End of prob.

2) Performing a song is also a very specific skill. To influence an audience to enjoy it, the front people have to know it back to front and back again. they have to know clever little bits and harmonies that they enjoy, to add those flourishes that an audience will get off on. That goes for ANY kind of music.
Take ONE new song that you can agree on. That is enough for one or even two months. Taking a whole book full at once is just plain ridiculous.

stop getting pissed off with each other. its in the nature of things that band members blame each other when things go wrong.

it does no good. think about what your ambitions and hopes were when you started with this band - don't give up on your dreams too easily.

al

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 01:52 AM

Susan,

In case you haven't noticed, I am not interested in you and your manipulations. It's interesting to hear that you have been "playing defense." I think the ONLY time I ever really sought out any kind of assistance was when Veronica didn't return. Silly me. I thought you were being a caring member of the church parish but now I know better...you were playing defense. Well, I guess I learn something new every single day. Losing Veronica in the manner that we did and how much I grieved for that child is not a case of anyone crying victim...it's an example of a human being in the deepest kind of pain there is.

Susan, I know you and I don't see eye to eye on many things, but that's pretty low. I don't always like you but I did trust you. Never, ever again. Score two points for you.

Michelle

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST,lilyfestre's husband
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 11:39 PM

Susan,

I have been quite about you treating my wife like dirt these past years because she got some enjoyment out of playing in your band (lord only knows how with all hoops you make people jump through). There is no open door becuase I will not let you take advantage of her no more. You are a user plain and simple. Too lazy to do any of the work yourself so you have to get others to do it for you. So you can type up your own crap from now on. So go ahead be nasty to her so I can show you just how nasty I can be.



Pissed off husband

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 10:42 PM

When is it time to leave a thread?

Have yourself a time, Michelle. I'm done playing defense whenever you decide you are being victimized again. No one else who has played has had any trouble getting along. The door is open. It's up to you what action to take.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 05:48 PM

Susan,

    When I joined the band, the first thing you told me is that the greensong book comes back when you leave. I offered it back to you and you told me to keep it as you expected me to come back at some point. There are some very interesting shades of the truth going on here. I also have emails. All of them.

If you'd like to share more about me in this forum, please feel free but at least be honest about it and take some responsibility for your part in this mess.

   Not all of what you just posted is accurate. I'd go on about it, but what's the point? You will throw it in my lap anyway. Go ahead. I'm getting used to it. According to you, nothing is ever your fault, it's always mine. *shrug*

Michelle

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 03:33 PM

Yes, that too.

Perhaps, Peace, you might care to suggest a prayer we can print to insert into each of our songbooks, for the ministry of us all. (We used to have one in the first iteration of the band's playing at the church.) The Sunday AM folks involved in the sanctuary group always pray together before they embark on the morning's services. I don't think of myself as our band's spiritual advisor... but the guy who started us all off and still pitches in to help with everything, despite many personal adversities, is the most unfailingly positive person I know, and I bet he would be very honored to be appointed our chaplain.

I hear that prayer thing actually works. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 01:51 PM

And it's all done for the greater glory of God.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 09:30 AM

It sounds better when you sing as you aren't so close to the mic. When FG speaks into the other mic, it is more understandable.

I often "eat the mic" when I sing-- singing with my lips actually touching it. The difference is not the microphones or the closeness to them. It's mostly Hardiman's strong carryng voice even away from the amp, from the center aisle, unobstructed by pews. (My speaking voice is not nearly as strong as my singing voice.) And it's the placement of the amps-- we are on two different amps and without amp stands, speech does not cross the pew barriers well. The amps are aimed, also, to eliminate feedback. Since you have not worked with sound systems (not needing one for the fiddle), you would not know this.

Some people who sit elsewhwere in the church hear me just fine, BTW. We do the best we can within the limitations we've been given to work with.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 09:15 AM

Michelle,

I think it is more accurate to say that you offered to return the material awhile back because you had a busy time coming up with your student teaching, and that you were told then that although some band changes were taking place as a result of FG's taking over while I took a break, we welcomed your participation any time you could join in.

You were told then about the offertories, eventually offered one one weekend, and then canceled the offer about 24 hours later because you and your fiddle were not getting along. No one complained when this occurred, although it did mean some last-minute scrambling for the person who had originally been scheduled for that week's offertory.

You recently had an opportunity to the extent and nature of the changes that had been in the works, and offered a fresh start to contemplate if and when you resumed playing your fiddle. All this verbiage has ensued now that you know what will be expected if you should find you wish to return.

Of course we hope you will return, and as the policy states we want existing members to move toward the new approach-- not that people who can't meet the desired commitment are being asked to leave. No one has asked you to leave-- quite the opposite, I have been proactive in making every effort I can think of to find a way you can keep some involvement that works for you. As a matter of fact, I've reviewed the last severeal years' emails about this matter, and I see a longstanding cycle where idea after idea has been shot down.

So it has become clear to me that for whatever reason, this isn't working for you at this time. If that is not the case-- the remedy is simple. Just let us know when to expect you to return to involvement, plan on having some rehearsal time before you are on the spot to "perform," work on some simple, melodic communion music of your choosing from whatever source you wish to use, and THEN see if it works for you. I'll even be happy to give you a copy of some of the source songs we're working from, and arrangements for the new material whether you're playing with us or not, if that would be helpful in thinking about how the fiddle might be useful as a side part if you want to work on those skills.

As I have said now several times-- and I think clearly and patiently-- the approach is not intended to exclude anyone, but simply a structure to provide a way people can participate to the extent of their abilities.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 07:33 AM

I tried to do that earlier because I can't commit the way I should and was told to hang on to the music as they expect and want me to come back.

Michelle

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST,bandleader
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 05:55 AM

just go and give them some peace if you feel like you do you can't be giving your all to the band.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 05:48 AM

It sounds better when you sing as you aren't so close to the mic. When FG speaks into the other mic, it is more understandable.

More than enough said from me on this thread.

To the orginal poster, thanks for the thread, it gives me some serious pause for thought.

Michelle

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 11:29 PM

It would be wonderful if the Sunday AM folks could tolerate our putting the amps up on amp stands, wouldn't it? We used to actually have to put them away every week. Sure wish when they bought an expensive sound system for the parish, they'd have realized we neeeded sound, too, and that a speaking sound sytem is different from a music one.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 11:13 PM

Susan,

   I think that's a fine idea. I'd be asking things like how many of you would find notes useful in singing the music? Another thing I'd be curious to find out, and think you would be surprised, at how many folks have trouble understanding the spoken page number...I don't know what it is about that mic, but it comes out garbled. I have talked to Hardi about this a few times but since nothing changed, I thought he didn't think it was an issue. Watch sometime at all the folks talking to each other after the page number is read...they are asking..what page did she say?

   I'm not caught up in anything that I haven't asked about before. As far as upset...I can't speak for anyone but me. And yes, there is a process, I've tried that route before...hopefully others will meet with better results.

Michelle

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 10:17 PM

Michelle,

Praise-music churches don't distrubute notes, either, BTW, as I posted earlier. They don't even provide a words-only book in most cases.

Now, it's a funny thing, but at the nursing homes where we use songsheets with words only, we've never had anyt trouble about notes. I guess they just know a lot of songs.

I can't even begin to count the number of commercially printed songbooks we reviewed in the early years, looking for something that would work and that the parish might be able to afford. You have a copy of one of them now-- don't you just love the tiny print and the limited number of songs?

I think as far as congregational input, we'll go ahead and do a survey. They really should be talking to us about this, instead of circulating upset behind our backs, don't you think? There is Biblical instruction on how to resolve upsets that isn't being followed-- and we are not mind-readers. I do hope you will encourage people to talk to us, for themselves, about any concerns they have. It's too bad you have gotten caught up in it.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 09:46 PM

That tells me that having notes would be useful. I do have several of the songs from the greenbook....I think....printed out here...but since the only rehearsals are only right before the service, there is little chance to catch the feel of how you folks sing it, keys aside. I'm not a great player, I need time for that kind of thing. Even if we practiced the song a week or two ahead...that would give me (or whoever else) time to work out the bugs (rhythms, runs, skipped over parts, etc) in the song so there stood some kind of chance of it sounding decent from a note playing stance. Being that I have spent time both in the pew and in front of the people, I can also tell you that folks have repeatedly said that it would be nice if they had notes to sing by. I don't think it's strictly a player issue. Whatever. It's your group. You are the leader...so I guess if this has been a problem in the past, is a problem now, then it will be in the future....and that really is just a shame.

Michelle

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 08:27 PM

Michelle, no, you are not the only person who has wished that notes were always available, and who neither chose to do that part of the job nor sought a volunteer to do it for them. The answer has always been the same. So far, no takers on doing the notes. I do have MIDIs printed for most of the the songs in the next book, BTW, but again there's no guarantee all the keys will be covered.... I don't know what key I'll be able to sing in in several months. And the job of matching text to notes is a further complication.

You're also not the only person who has been invited to suggest music for the band. One person took a set of 8 tapes and I got them back 2 years later-- long after I'd forgotten how any of them even sounded and after my tape player died and I changed to all-CD storage. Another person took several weeks one summer to listen through my fat binders full of CDs-- his idea. He said he enjoyed them a lot-- but he never made notes on what he liked and he could not even recall which ones he had listened to. Another person took another set of tapes once, and although he had an hour's drive each day to work, and back, he never went through them. He did contribute other songs, though. All hand-written and hard to read, harder to copy cleanly-- assumed I'd type. (And I'm a very poor typist.)

As far as not knowing what key we will be in, you're right-- no, we often don't know that. It kind of goes along with the music being sung by different people and with different vocal situations at different times. The only vocalists we've ever had available also talk all day, and that is really hard on a voice. Even Tom sometimes had no idea what key he wanted a piece in on a given night, even on songs he'd brought to the group. (Eventually he began to learn to do his own transposing.)

The realities of playing week in and week out, and singing whether one has a voice or not, are seldom considered when people set out on a job like this. It's sure taught me a lot-- it's taught me that I have to be realistic and that I have to make my limitations clear or drown in people's desires for what I will do for them.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 07:55 PM

Susan,

   II'm not assuming that everything you've written is about me, I know that there have been many people who played and have moved on....but that particular part is about me, it happened this week. If you weren't referring to me, then it's something that is a reoccuring problem.

Michelle

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 07:50 PM

Michelle, you seem to assume all that I've written is about you. It's not. There have been a number of people who played with us for awhile-- some in church and some in other settings-- from whom we learned some hard lessons. The policies reflect all of that.

Let's move on.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 07:27 PM

Susan, you also posted this:

Pete, your post is kind of ambiguous in oe regard-- are you saying your wife is actually a member of the parish I play at? If that is the case, have you participated yourself? Are you sure you're getting the whole story? Would you like to sit in and see for yourself?

As I stated above, yes, his wife, me, is a member of the parish which you play at. I don't mean to speak for my husband but I do know the answers to these questions.

Yes, he has attended the Saturday night services on occassion. If you would prefer a more detailed answer as to why he is not coming more frequently, well, I can answer that too...but I'll leave that to him...if he wants to share that you or not.

Is he getting the whole story? YES. He hears things from me, other family members, friends and has seen things for himself. Are you insinuating that I am lying to my husband? I didn't think so. *cough*

Would he like to sit in? I'm thinking that if he wanted to sit in you'd have seen more of him.

I'll be anxious to see if he chooses to add anything more.

Michelle

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 06:02 PM

Susan,

   I didn't bring up that bit so perhaps you have addressed it to the wrong person.

This part is about me and I'm not shy about it. You wrote: As an example of equitable songbook preperation-- someone whose approach to music is very note-dependent asked if the next songbook will include notes. I replied that they can include notes for some of the published songs--- if someone will take on that part of the task of making the book. It's a huge task. I already spend fulltime hours doing the books as they have been. Unpaid. It's been uphill work even having folks share the job of reviewing possible songs.

I am the person who plays by notes. That's the way it is. I have also played in the church band or whatever it is. Because the music is written with only the chord note above the words, I am unable to do very much. I could add much more if I had notes. I told you I would look up some of it and I have. The trouble is this. I never know what key is going to be your pick of the night so that means learning several versions of the same song that we might or might not do. If we, as a group, practiced something in advance of the night of the song and had a key picked out, I could prepare something. I know that doesn't work for you so there's no need to go into that. I have also done everything you asked of me regarding the band with the exception of last week in regards to listening to music to help pick out songs. Why did I say no? Because we've been down this road before and the things I pick out, you never seem to like or need...we aren't on the same wavelength at all...why waste both of our time and heap frustration on the pile? It makes no sense. You later asked me to type up the lyrics, I told you what I could handle given my current schedule and followed through.

Yes, the songbooks are a lot of work and I don't think anyone has argued that point. I don't think it's necessarily fair to say that each volunteer has the same amount time or commitment to gospel music that you do. For myself, I enjoy the music, I enjoy playing, I wish I had more time for both but the reality is, I don't have it to give. I'm not being obstinate or ornery are requiring any kind of handholding...it's just how my life is right now and you know that.

I'm not trying to make anyone look bad or anything of the sort...and you are right...there is always more to the story.

As for the new band thing, either you are referring to what Ridge Plucker had to say or you have decided to exercise your freedom of choice...that's up to you.

Michelle

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 02:33 PM

Michelle,

Who's in the new church band? When will they start?

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 02:18 PM

Susan,

    Yes, Pete's wife is a member of your congregation, that would be me. Since the position is volunteer, you have the same option as the rest of us.

Michelle

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 11:13 AM

What people find "singable" is always an issue in any church setting, Mmario. A lot of Sunday AM musicians say that ANY new song (new to the people) takes several repeats to become part of the music the people find singable. The choir will introduce a new piece as an offertory, then repeat it as a congregational piece a few weeks later, and hope it sticks the third time around. Last night at evensong, in another parish, a well-known text was new to music I had never heard. There was not much singing going on, and no choir leading. Finally one stroing but pretty unattractive voice took it up and we all followed; bt the third verse most of us had most of the tune but then there was no fourth verse.

At other churches using praise music it's the same thing. No notes most of the time, because the note books are very expensvicee, so the words are usually put up on an overhead projector or there's a words-only book. A congregation develops a body of songs they are comfortable with, everyoine gets very excited, then it either gets stale with songs always-repeated or else the band intorudces now songs and the people have as much trouble going into new material as any Sunday AM tradtional-songs congregation. In any event, if you are a newcomer to any congregation, the body of music that congregation uses is going to seem strange for a long while. Our Sat. night folks now include an extended family of 6 former Baptists. Naturally, they don't know the same songs we do. They push me to look into Baptist hymnody for new material, and when they first started coming I made a serious effort to find songs they might know-- but then the rest of the folks didn;t know THOSE songs.

Now, since it began, our Saturday group have broken all those precedents about "new music is not singable". They've been notable for being excited about new, rare material, and that's kept it frsh for everyone.

But in church life as anywhere else, you can't please everyone and some people tend to be more positive in their approach to saying what they think, and some people tend to be more negative in their manner. It's all information-- you try not to take criticism personally and to hear the infromation instead. You do the best you can, to present material you hope will be useful to people's spirituality, but if they don't TELL you what is working, all you can go by is the atmosphere after the service ends. I sure haven't seen anyone cringing their way in, or out-- although a little personal feedback has been positively offered on a regular basis by several folks, and this has provided great guidance to us over the years. One lady in particular has surprised me over and over; she seems like a very conservative, traditional lady, but she's been coming regularly since we started many years ago and she has liked it all! I told her, one night, that I look her way often to see if a new song is pushing the envelope to much-- if SHE doesn't approve, I know I've gone too far. She was very energetic in assuring me that she has liked it ALL and I shouldn't worry. (Of course she's right that a worried mind is not a good approach in church!)

I'm very grateful our band has the process it does. We always-- no matter which of us has picked the music for the night-- bring more pieces than will be needed. We run through them in rehearsal. The band reaches a consensus on which ones will work best, before the night's final choices are made. We are not limited, as a Sunday AM choir is, to the hymns listed in a bulletin; we announce them as we go.

We also have the option of adjusting the choices as the service unfolds; when we play out of an existing songbook, sometimes the choices change on the fly. I've had one song we were planning for a closing, for instance, and then I might see that the opener didn;t go well and I might pass a note along the line to the band that I'm chaging the closing because it's similar to the opening. Or we might make a change on the fly when a person who has made a request several weeks back has not been there the week we did their request-- they'll come in after the service starts and we go to their request instead of doing the planned material.

Of course, it's helpful to have musicians who are capable of that degree of flexibility. It would be a lot to expect of a new player.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: MMario
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 10:39 AM

Okay - I thought possibly you'd shifted over to instrumentals or something...participation and enthusiasm among the congregation have always seemed pretty good when I've visited.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 10:11 AM

Mmario, we've added some stuff the last few weeks I had no trouble singing along with the first time I heard it, just like anything we've ever tried on a Saturday-- but the source is black gospel or stuff that originated with black gospel and was adpated by another "white" group from whom I learned the song. I don't know if that has anything to do with how some people have reacted, but I do know several people have really enjoyed that stuff, too.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: MMario
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 10:07 AM

?? Virtually all the music The Good TImes Band plays at services is "sing along" - unless things have changed radically since I've been there.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 09:59 AM

Pete, I'd be thrilled if a church band formed-- and a long post I wrote about this yesterday got lost when my cable connection went south. We had the start of a second unit until the person who I guess would have become the "founding member"-- a strong singer with his own repertoire-- left the parish over other issues and soon was transferred to another part of the country by his company.

We don't tell anyone they can't play-- we make a distinction between people who are ready to play for the people and people who need to bring their skills and confidence up to the level where they actually can play. We've been more than generous with our time in helping people play, but at 7PM the handholding has to stop and the players need to be oriented to the people, not to their own fears.

We do welcome people to sit in with us at rehearsal time, as I described below. Our approach provides for a gentle start-up for a new member, not exclusion.

As far as the music choices, all band members participate in choosing music, and we have ecelectic interests-- as does the congregation. Our new approach will provide for even more variety in type and source of music-- The offertories members provide (those which can be sung congregationally) will be included in upcoming songbooks. The work of doing the songbooks will be more equitably shared as well, so that there will be more than two to choose from.

The older song book has mostly nursing home favorites most people know. The newer one we've used for Lent has a lot more non-traditional music; some of the people have found the songs harder to sing but many of the songs have been well received. They ALL have been topical for the Lenten readings, a wekaness of the older songbook. Some of the least-traditional pieces have been the best-received, and we never know which are going to go over well until we intrduce them. If they prove unsingable, we don't usually repeat them in that setting.

As an example of equitable songbook preperation-- someone whose approach to music is very note-dependent asked if the next songbook will include notes. I replied that they can include notes for some of the published songs--- if someone will take on that part of the task of making the book. It's a huge task. I already spend fulltime hours doing the books as they have been. Unpaid. It's been uphill work even having folks share the job of reviewing possible songs.


So-- back to your question-- would I love a church band to form, to attempt to meet all these diverse needs? You bet I would. There are lots of other opportunities our band could be pursuing if I put my time in doing the booking, instead of making songbooks. When can they start?   Are they really prepared to give up every Saturday night a year? Do they have a singer who can put a song across in place of a full choir? I'll tell you-- no one like that has been identified in our parish.

But-- will I be expected to fill in when this new church band can't appear? Lend my sound equipment? I think our band will be pretty busy.

Pete, your post is kind of ambiguous in oe regard-- are you saying your wife is actually a member of the parish I play at? If that is the case, have you participated yourself? Are you sure you're getting the whole story? Would you like to sit in and see for yourself?

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Roughyed
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 07:42 AM

Very interesting thread. Every band has it's own dynamics and every member takes a role within it. Sometimes those dynamics lead to one or more people leaving or the band disintegrating. But every band also has it's own parabola and every member it's own parabola within it.

All bands finish sometime. The important thing is to be as reasonable as possible when leaving, even if other members aren't. That way your conscience is clear and even if there is bad feeling at the time you stand the chance of making it up later when people have a bit of perspective.

Life's too short to stay where you don't want to be, to lose friends unnecessarily and to harbour grudges. I've played with loads of people over the years and they're all friends that share something special with me - even if it's only the memory of how terrible we were!

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: nosluap57
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 09:59 PM

Thank you to all who have provided me with some insightful advice.

The band I spoke of is a "church" band. All members are volunteers, except for the band leader.

I have decided to leave, for various rasons, after one final gig. We are playing a CD release show on 22 April, at the Fine Line, in Minneapolis. That's a pretty significant venue, so I feel that's a good way for me to leave with all the good memories I'm sure that show will produce.

The CD is avilable on iTunes. Search for "Spirit Garage Bands", then click on "Faith, Love, & Rock and Roll". Three bands on the CD. I'm the acoustic guitar for Identity Crisis.

Peace to all!

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST,ridge plucker
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 06:40 PM

Susan,

I was not arguing with you I just do not understand how it is you get to tell a member of a church they are not allowed to play music or sing in a church that they are a member of. I have heard from other members of this church besides my wife that it would be nice if the "band" could play something they could sing to. Maybe you would benefit from some of the members playing with you guys so they enjoy the show more so to speak and not cringe so much.

So what would happen if the members of the church wanted to form a band of their own? Would this not be allowed.   

Pete

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 04:25 PM

Interesting.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 04:20 PM

Oh.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 03:59 PM

1. Although our most frequent "gig" is a weekly church service, the band existed before that service as a separate entity with a distinct focus. It is neither a church band nor made up exclusively of members of the parish where we most often play. Its role is not to cater to members, but to lead music for other people.

The Good News-Goodtime Band is an independent, community-based band with members from a variety of churches and from outside the church community as well. There are a couple of people who don't play in church on a regular basis who DO play at other settings and with whom the core members share a repertoire and a long, varied perfomance history at community functions.

The band existed long before the Saturday night service did. The band did not form out of the church membership overall or the Saturday congregation in particular. In the main, most expenses of the band are not paid by the church or paid as part of anyone's pledge to the church. The church also does not own the sound equipment.

This has been reflected in our band website for several years, in the church website, and in the gigs the band plays beyond the church setting, some of which include a veriety of secular music.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 03:57 PM

The Good News-Goodtime Band is an independent, community-based band with members from a variety of churches and from outside the church community as well. There are a couple of people who don't play in church on a regular basis who DO play at other settings and with whom the core members share a repertoire and a long, varied perfomance history at community functions.

The band existed long before the Saturday night service did. The band did not form out of the church membership overall or the Saturday congregation in particular. In the main, most expenses of the band are not paid by the church or paid as part of anyone's pledge to the church. The church also does not own the sound equipment.

This has been reflected in our band website for several years, in the church website, and in the gigs the band plays beyond the church setting, some of which include a veriety of secular music.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 03:24 PM

We aren't a church band? I'm confused.


Michelle

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 09:13 AM

Thanks, Charley. It's never happened to us-- I am not sure how we would handle it. We've either been lucky or we've had sound judgment in members-- or both!

I'm not going to argue with ridge plucker-- as it happens, I do actually know what I am doing. Our policies are our policies, and we've had the benefit of lots of good advice as well as our own experience to draw upon.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 08:22 AM

Susan-

An excellent set of rules based on long experience.

Errrr, is there a procedure for asking a member to leave? I realize pospective members have to survive a trial period but what do you do if a "core member" is no longer functioning well?

Our group is legally incorporated and we can dismiss a member of our "board" by majority vote. Usually they leave on their own volition but everyone knows that is possibe.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST,ridge plucker
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 11:00 PM

Susan

As long as you are playing in the church for church services and not charging people to see you, you are a church band. What you do outside is your own business.

Pete

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 10:37 PM

Pete, ours is NOT a church band. We just happen to play there.

~Susan

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST,ridge plucker
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 10:32 PM

Seems to me that if you are not having a good time that is when you need to say enough is enough. If you are not having a good time it will show in your playing. Music is suppose to refreshs the soul, clears the mind, and brings joy to your life. Some people like to put a long list of rules to a band to me that just kills the joy before you even get your instrument out of the case. Why bother their main interest is not the band just having some kind of control or power over the other members. It is my experience that these are the people that have little actual musical talent so they make up for it by being bossy fun suckers. I can see if it is a band that is getting payed and the members are doing it for a living then more rules come into play and are required. If it is a church band or similar then it should be more loosely structured where any interested members feel like they can be apart of it. I do not know how you could exclude a member of the church from the church band that wanted to play. Would you ask a member not to sing hymns? I would hope not. Loosen up anyone up for a little I, IV, V acoustic blues.....

Have a good one,
Pete

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: number 6
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 04:35 PM

"When the Music being played no longer makes you happy...that's a crunch point."

Alba's statement above just about sums it up. The usual clash of egos's which is a trait in a lot of musicians/artists is one impact of the 'happy' aspect.

The direction of one's artistic evolvment also is an indicator of when to leave the band. Be honest with yourself. When you know your aren't 'clicking' with the band due to what you want to do artistically due to changes in your own vision ... leave.

sIx

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 03:31 PM

It's good to start out with a set of "rules" so that everybody knows what's expected of them. The problem, I think, is that many bands just sort of "form themselves" out of friends or session mates.   As they start working more and gigs are coming in each member naturally settles into what they are best at or inclined towards - and often that means one person ends up handling the business end of things, another the musical arranging, another the sound system, etc. Sometimes one person seems to get stuck with everything and the rest just seem to turn up, play their instruments or sing and pocket the cash, which they feel should be evenly divided.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 03:02 PM

Band policies have been a subject of heavy discussion between core members of the band for a long, long time; I think I alluded to it before in this thread. Core members are myself, my husband, and banjo player Ed. Why do we consider ourselves the "core members"? Because we carry the frieght, in whatever form the freight lands on the band, every time. We're the ones who can and do "do it all;" maybe we're not all blessed with the greatest ability as musicians but we do demonstrate the greatest commitment to following through so that the people who hear us (singalongs) can have a good time, so the people who book us have a good experience, and so anyone else who wants to play with us has a good opportunity and materials and gigs to get the job done. We also have been the only songfinders-- myself, primarily, and the other two as time and resurces have permittted.

Things came to a head in the last year for a variety of reasons... The winter saw many discussions under the general heading, "What would we want it to be like if we were starting the band, today?"

As a result of these talks-- sometimes hilarious venting occasions-- we've been working with current members to help them move toward new policies, which are now as follows:

1. Although our most frequent "gig" is a weekly church service, the band existed before that service as a separate entity with a distinct focus. It is neither a church band nor made up exclusively of members of the parish where we most often play. Its role is not to cater to members, but to lead music for other people.

2. All members are expected to contribute to the effort required for the band to exist, each according to their talents.

3. New folks wanting to play with us are welcome at any rehearsal. From time to time visitors are asked to solo, when they clearly have the necessary performance experience. Weekly rehearsals are partly jams where improvisation is welcomed, and partly opportunities for members to teach others new material and arrangements to be played as taught. Time is a foctor in this area.

4. New folks can be asked to join us for a trial period, sitting in as side players and following existing arrangements. From time to time visitors are asked to solo, when they clearly have the necessary performance experience, as associate members.

5. New folks invited to join us for a trial period are expected to prepare and present instrumental communion music for the weekly worship service for which our band provides the music. A month's commitment to this is normative. It is assumed that the person will play solo; they are welcome to ask senior members to join in and, if so, they are expected to work with them on the material on their own time.

6. The next level of increased involvement is that the new person takes a place in the monthly or seasonal rotation of offertories, choosing these and taking the lead in presenting them. A month's commitment is normative; from time to time, a member may ask another member to fill in on short notice so it is a good idea to have one ready at all times. If the person needs help from a senior band member, they are expected to ask for it and to make appropriate arrangements.

7. Any sung offertory material needs to be given to the band as a copy for consideration for inclusion in later songbooks. Copies must be clear, camera-ready photocopies and a text file via disk or email of the lyric, including all copyright details. A source recording is helpful if available.

8. At the request or option of the band's leadership, offertories once presented may be transposed, rearranged, or text altered so that the material is appropriate for congregational singing. (Guidelines can be found in ECUSA canon law.)

9. The band's leadership owns sound systems and some related equipment which are available as needed. New members are expected to furnish their own mics or pickup and cords, to feed into the mix. Vocal mics must be Shure SM-58 or similar quality.

10. Members furnish own music stands and, if they require lights, stand-lights and extension cords.

11. Arrangment books are lent to members and may not be copied, distributed, or altered in any way without permission. New transpositions and arrangmeent are welcome but must be included in ALL copies of the books to maintain standard resources for all members.

12. Recordings of proposed new material are welcomed for band consideration.

13. Participation of associate and new members in gigs is at the discretion of the band;s core leaders. ANyoine not playing at a scheduled appearance is encourtaged to participate by helping at rehearsal and at the gig, including tech tasks, setup, breakdown, and audience management.

14. Rehearsals for gigs, as occasionally required, are essential to maintain membership. Every effort is made to ensure scheduling that will work for all.

15. Everyone shares the task of moving all instruments and equipment for gigs, and setting up/breakdown of all gear, each according to their physical abilities (not only according to ownership).

16. The "Fairfield Four Rules" for band comportment are in effect from rehearsal time through departure. A copy of Fairfield Four bass veteran Isaac Freemean's description is available from senior members.

~Susan

---

FAIRFIELD FOUR RULES (at 47:20)

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 02:34 AM

if all else fails, show them that last message!

all the best

al

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 02:32 AM

Pauline what you are not saying speaks volumes.

These are not very good musicians. Believe you me, all musicians (classical in particular) love improvising and messing about with melodies and rythms.

A lot of the attitude probably comes from the fact that if they spend their time trying to cover bases and play crotchets, with no great success - they probably have turned to folk music as a bit of light relief. To their surprise - they find themselves in a very unforgiving element.

In folk clubs in England, there is a long tradition of being nice to crap players and performers - paricularly performers - we all had to start somewhere.. However folk music isn't like classical music - you don't take an exam - get six out of ten and they give you a certificate. You can either do it or you can't. And you can feel yourself playing crap, and before long the gloves come off and SOMEONE tells you - you're crap mate!

Doubtless your classically trained friends feel insecure. try making them a cocoa, telling them they're wonderful, great effort - but you've been taking notes........

all the best

al

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: Pauline L
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 01:24 PM

In my case, it's not a band performing for money. It's supposed to be just for fun among friends. I'm the one in the group with the most experience in this kind of music by far. Most of the others have never even played it. These are classical musicians who have not jammed, arranged music, negotiated a melody, improvised harmony, put tunes together into sets, explored subtypes of this kind of music, etc. I think they need me more than I need them. It was probably not a good idea for me to get myself into this. I'm seeing things more clearly now. I'd be happier playing in a group with peers or with people I can both learn from and teach to.

Subject: RE: When is it time to leave a band?
From: GUEST,JMC
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 10:19 AM

I highly recommend duos for the weary of spirit. Less tricky to organise, less group dynamics, less potential for argument.