BS: Is Lord of Rings offensive to fundament. too

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Mark Clark
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 10:49 PM

Well I thought the Rankin-Bass animation of The Hobbit was pretty good. One problem with all the Rings films is they always ran out of budget before achieving their goals. You could tell that some accountant had pulled the plug and told them to distribute whatever they had in the can. A film that does justice to Tolkien would have to be many separate films each several hours long.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Brían
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 09:37 PM

I actually found both The Chronicles of Narnia and The Lord of the Rings to have very conservative messages. The notion I believe Frodo had of always having a Shire that stayed the same to return to sounds to me like the 50's American Ideal tha many Christian Conservatives hold dear. C. S. Lewis, by the way, was a theologian. The Last Battle is actually a description of Armageddon for children. Read his Screwtape Letters if you want to see Radical Right-Wing Christian arguments.

That being said, I do remember both stories fondly. The president of the art school where I earned my useless degree suggested I read The Lord of the Rings in an effort to get me to "lighten up".

I rather enjoy Thread Creep.

Brían

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Robin2
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 09:14 PM

Art,

From the trailers I've seen, this is going to be one amazing movie! These books have been my top favorites for over 20 years, and I always told Hubby, NO ONE could do them justice. (Remember those horrible attempts about 15 years ago?..shudder) The previews I have seen, I've been able to identify exactly what part of the book, down to exact passages in dialoge...

Here's hoping... I have correctly brainwashed all of my children, so we are all going together to see it...how's that for good upright Christian values?

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 09:01 PM

Gee whiz, didn't we already go round on this last week- and the week before-and the week before-and

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 08:14 PM

Mark is right, Fundamentalist Christianity is indeed an oxymoron although not for the reason he gives.

Christianity is not some easy, feelgood, touch-feely, hey let's all be pals together, luvya babe system of beliefs.

If ypou are indeed a Christian you believe the following articles of faith.

A. Tou were conceived in sin and you are a sinner.
B. Christ was born the Son of God and died to save you from the consequences of your sins
C. If you do not accept Christ as your Savior, and do not truly repent of your sins, you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven (which in effect means you will rot in Hell)
D. Christ was crucified and rose again on the third day, and HE WILL RETURN AGAIN, at the time of the Second Coming. The Second Coming is fundamental to Christian belief. This is when you will be judged.

That pretty much sums it up.
Christianity is Christianity is Christianity.

Do I believe? Ask me on my deathbed.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Art Thieme
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 07:45 PM

Look kids, this is just such a sad state of affairs if only because we've got to live togather in this world while we are at odds with one another. It is dumb and stupid to give each other a hard time on this. We must live and let live and respect the desires of others -- their needs for themselves. As I've said before, I'm an atheist secular Jew and I probably only say that because my mother was a Jew and Hitler would've cremated me alive only beause of that fact. (Dad wasn't.) My wife is a Jehovah's Witness and she and her friends KNOW all the f-ing answers. (Some just need to have certainty I guess.)
I've seen sad and terrible problems when the kids NEED other things in their lives---things that are natural to desire if one is true to the STRONG urges of one's "wisdom body"--as Joseph Campbell called it ---the natural searching force to break out on their own hook that young folks exhibit.--- It's inherant, as I see it, in most people to go their own ways--read their own books, venerate things as they view it---not as others force them to see it. And it should be o.k. and not a threat when they look to so-called "heathen" religions, witchcraft, or maybe occult or shamanistic societies. If freedom of religion is more than an ideal, we must make room. It's in their interest and our own.

As I said, it's just a wondrous story--imagination made beautiful in it vividness and it's complexity. It will be fantastic to see it on the screen IF it is done well.

May the hair on your feet grow long. And if you want to dye it pink and gel it and spike it or pierce your little toe and cultivate your foot fetish---so be it.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Mark Clark
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 07:13 PM

Art, I too have read “There And Back Again” many times including readings to our daughter, Kate. I made up different voices for all the characters and we both always looked forward to the reading at bedtime.

As for fundamentalist Christians, I don't think I know any. I think the term itself is an oxymoron since fundamentalists never seem to espouse any theology that Christ might recognize. They are to Christianity as Al Qaida is to Islam. The KKK views itself as a Christian organization as did the Nazis.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Burke
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 06:53 PM

I've read the other thread & now this one & feel really compelled to make a point.

It is basically impossible to say what fundamentalists as whole believe because they simply do not speak with one voice. We all know that the Catholic Church has it's official teachings that not all Catholic's really hold to. Well, that central organization to give you the official teachings just does not exist for fundamentalism. There are Christian Denominations that more or less hold to the general ideas of fundamentalism, but to a one, they are not centrally controlled & cannot define the teachings of their local preachers, much less the person in the pew. They prove this by splitting constantly over seemingly trivial matters.

There are indeed leaders who speak & seem at various times have more or fewer followers, but their power comes from their ability to persuade.

So the answer to the question here is, that some do object. Others look on LotR's as Christian fantasy & happily incorporate it into whatever else they are doing. For a number of years I attended an independent, evangelical church. We had a discussion group on LotR's & Narnia that was completely positive about the books. Even more so on the creation story in Silmarillion.

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: SharonA
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 06:44 PM

Clinton asks: "Is there anything besides the frigg'n Bible that isn't [offensive] to those zealots?"

Not much, Clinton, not much. They do like the Reader's Digest! : D

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 06:33 PM

"Is The Lord Of The Rings Offensive to many fundamentalist Christians the same way Harry Potter seems to be? "

Is there anything besides the frigg'n Bible that isn't to those zelots?

And really, who besides them gives a flying tinkers cuss??? They can take a good long leap, as far as I'm concerned...

idiots...

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 06:29 PM

When a thread about creeps starts of with a thread creep what sort of direction is up?

There's always a clash between a theory of democracy in which majorities have the power to do what they want, and one in which minorities have rights which can't be over-ridden. Including miniorities of one.

Of couyrse Lord of the Rings isn't about democracy in any case. The only place where you could say there's some kind of democracy is The Shire - and that's not a democracy, it's a well functioning anarchist enclave.

Since The Lord of the Rings is full of magic and doesn't make any overt referances to Abrahamic religion (ie Judeo/Christian/Isamic), and Tolkien was a believing and practicing Catholic, I imagine there is bound to be a lopt of flak from certain sorts of fun-damn mentalists, but so what?

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 06:25 PM

My kids were at the proper age to read "Lord.." and I read it also, wearing out a set. One of the not so many books that appeals to a wide age group. The kids are in their 40s now. I read all the books on sorcery that I could find when I was a kid, and saw all of the Bela Lugosi, etc. movies. I blame them for leading me into the sciences for my livelihood. I believe those kinds of literature help to shape an inquiring mind.
In spite of the ignorant and narrow-minded, I think the movie version will make a big splash. Already sales of the books are jumping. They will help form another generation of kids with a good percentage of inquiring minds. Haven't read the Potter books, but they seem to be good for the youngest readers.
Thread creep here too- It's a good thing that Powell is there to toilet train and tell Bush what to do.

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 06:17 PM

I'm confused. What was the question again?

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: SharonA
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 06:17 PM

To answer your question: yes. So is just about any similar fantasy novel (my folks even had trouble with C.S. Lewis and the Narnia books). So is any science fiction.

Subject: RE: BS: IsL. OfRings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 06:15 PM

(Yeah, but it's good thread creep... )

Subject: Is L. Of Rings offensive to fundamenta.too
From: Art Thieme
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 06:05 PM

The title of the thread: Is The Lord Of The Rings Offensive to many fundamentalist Christians the same way Harry Potter seems to be?

I've loved the Lord Of The Rings for 40 years. For at least 25 or 30 of those years I've read the whole or selected parts of it each year. There are "dark lords" and "orcs" and "wizards" and magic galore in those books. This was way back before the so-called silent majority and long before fundamentalists and other minority groups learned that, like labor unions, there was power in the union of like-minded individuals who got together, stood their ground, and empowered themselves and their movement's tenets. Democracy was interprited to mean that, even if you only had one more than 50% of people on your side, you and your group got to take ALL the marbles home with you--and the gloves, bats and balls to boot. George Bush even got to take all those and more home with him EVEN THOUGH he he lost the American election. Now he is giving America away to his mega-rich supporters..

(Sorry, I've made my own thread creep even before starting the train.)

Art Thieme