BS: Poverty in the USA

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 12:35 PM

There are people who collect paychecks. There are people who   consult, consider, connect. Guess to which one AWG belongs?

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: AWG
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 10:05 AM

'AWG, how can you consider an ivory tower to be where Bobett and Janie live? If 'getting your hands dirty' means what it should: that you are out there laboring with all your heart to make a difference, their hands are dirty.'

Please do tell, how have Bobert and Janie acutally helped the poor ?? By having full time jobs ? By spending half their life in this thread , talking about it. I'm itching to know, as are others I'm sure. What have they done to improve the lives of the poor ? (since you brought it up, Ebbie).

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 12:53 AM

Aw shucks! 1000.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 12:52 AM

Kipp,

Thanks for coming into this thread and sharing your experience and observations. I hope you consider carefully before deciding to appease Dickey's (or anyone else's) curiosity about your particular circumstances.

I wonder, when you talk about people making big money in the industry that has indeed arisen around 'services' for the poor, if you are speaking of the privatization of traditionally publicly run programs? You don't say enough about that for me to know exactly what you are talking about. I know there are definitely businesses making money, and lots of it, who contract for job training and job development programs, and in mental health. It is the CEO's and the very upper level management of these firms who are profitting, and profitting nicely. I also know that New Jersey has some famously corrupt municipalities (don't know about county and the state gov't) where agents of the the government historically have made tidy sums from kick backs, etc. I don't think of these people and the management of these companies as 'do gooders.' I think of them as corrupt opportunists. I also know from my own professinal experience that the amount of 'spin' that goes into programs, public and private' that are touted as services for people in need are in reality something else intirely. I do not mean that no one in need is ever helped by these programs. However, the publicly stated mission of service is simply a cover. The real mission is something else intirely. Usually some combination of profit for a small number of top level management, irresponsible cost-shifting, and the creation of political capital for some one else. This is a whole topic unto itself, so I won't comment further on it at this time.

As you know much better than me, shelters are appalling environments. The most dysfunctional of the poor, the bottom of the barrel so to speak, make up the majority of the population in shelters. but the this is not who comprises everyone utilizing a shelter. And those in shelters are representative only of those in shelters, and not all who are poor in this country. I think you make that point, actually. What I hear, when I read the few posts you have made, is confirmation that stereotyping people is an ineffective way to view people. And contrary to popular belief, people are people, whether they are poor or not.

A related but somewhat off-topic aside - crack cocaine - is probably one of the most destructive agents to influence our society in our history, and it is definitely a contributor to the maintenance of poverty to an extent that no other addictive substance has ever been. It's corrosive effects on the personality and behaviors (choices) of crack addicts goes well beyond that of opiates, alcohol, meth-amphetamine, powder cocaine, or any other drug I can think of. It is also most definitely a poor man's drug. Short of the extinction of the substance, I do not know how this destructiveness can be stopped or slowed. No amount of law enforcement or treatment known to mankind today can stop it. I'm not convinced that even extremely draconian measures such as automatic, permanent removal of children from the homes of crack addicted parents, or even forced sterilization of confirmed crack users as the only way to prevent increasing numbers of 'crack babies' born with significant organic brain dysfunction from en utero exposure to crack would bring it under control.

More later. gotta go to bed.

Thanks again for posting Kipp. Hope we hear more from you.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 10:49 PM

I would like to hear some details from Kipp like why he is in the situation he is in, how he got there going back to his childhood.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 10:00 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert - PM
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 05:32 PM

Okay, AWG... and Peace..."

Tell ya what, Bobert. It's all yours. Keep it under control, will ya? Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 06:16 PM

Well said, Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 06:09 PM

Busy.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: AWG
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 04:39 PM

Ebbie, I never said that about Bobert or Janie specifically, just many posters in general. Let's face it, when it comes to solving poverty there are a lot of 'armchair quarterbacks' on this thread. I think Kipp made a great point about the ivory tower. Are YOU there Ebbie ? I know I'm not, as Im sure Dickey and Kipp aren't either. Haven't heard from Peace, yet. Any particular reason for the sudden silence, Peace ??

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 01:48 PM

AWG, how can you consider an ivory tower to be where Bobett and Janie live? If 'getting your hands dirty' means what it should: that you are out there laboring with all your heart to make a difference, their hands are dirty.

As opposed to those who only have dirty tongues.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: AWG
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 10:19 AM

Well said, Kipp. I couldn't agree more. I think that 'ivory tower' is getting pretty overcrowded these days, mostly from a lot of posters on this thread. I, for one, don't mind getting my hands dirty, and it looks to me that Dickey and yourself are also in that camp. How about you, Bobert ?? Peace ??

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Kipp
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 10:12 AM

I am not from Trenton I am from somewhere else in New Jersey. But Tent, Like Camden ans Newark and I think Atlantic City are the only shelters in the state. So that when people become homeless and poor that is a few of the choices they have I am sure that there are others. I have gone through the tranportation hub in Camden and ther are people sleeping on the floor at all hour I suppose. and this is one more choice. The shelters are a place that some people go when they have know knetwork to help them there they apply for welfare and wait. Some apply for section eight housing not everyone can get it it depends apon the avaslability. It seem to have a hirerarhy as to who has the best chance of getting it women with children have the easist time of it men have a harder time. A jewish man with a MA from Harvard might not ever get it, it does not help even if he is sixty years old. Cercomstances put him where he is even though he made the choices that more than likely put him there and will keep him there, although he is now sleeping outside now.
Not all the poor are who we expect them to be. and as the rich seem to get richer and the poor get poorer, and the amount of poor people just increases all the time. It will not be long before the middle class in greater number will find themselves in simalar circumstances. I believe that unless something changes this is what will happen.
Saddly for some if not most the people that are thought to be the support group for these people will say even if they can help they wont there relpy is go to social services. But they will not say but it is implyed we don't what nothing to do with you .
No one what the poor around it is bad for the bottom line property values will go down. Hang around and the police will run you out of town take you to jail or a mental ward.
Now if any one thinks what I have to say is not about poverty then they do not know poverty then. You can not talk about poverty from an ivory tower you at some point have to get your hands dirty poverty is a very complex problem that will always be with us That is at the very core of any solution because I think it is a part of human nature to be selfish and greedy

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 10:00 PM

Well well well, some folks believe labor unions improve the plight of the working man. That was true way back when but I think unions have outlived their time. That is why they are shrinking.

It used to be that there was an excess of labor and greedy employers took advantage of this for cheap labor (see Bound for Glory or read The Grapes of Wrath). Now there is a shortage. I saw a guy being interviewed in the unemployment line on TV. He had his stylish jacket and his walkman on. The took off the earphones long enough to say "I ain't goin to bend over an pick sumthin' up off tha groun' man."

Now days it is the illegal aliens getting boarhogged instead of the Okies. That could be fixed if the minimum wage was raised to at least $10 per hour for citizens and the law that forbids hiring illegal immigrants was enforced.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: AWG
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 05:53 PM

Just having some fun while you were gone, Bobert. But now that you are back, its back to business. Okay, now you and Dickey can continue your bickering and everyone else will leave you two alone. And Peace, please stick to the subject, how many times have you been told ?

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 05:32 PM

Okay, AWG... and Peace...

This is a rediculuous discusssion going on here that has absolutely nuthin'---I repeat---absolutely nuthin' to do with this thread... It is a deliberate attempt to change the conversation... Okay, a little comic releif is fine but now it's going beyond fine and disrespecting the folks, myself included, who have ***invested*** a lot of time and resources into this discusssion...

This thread is about poverty... Not labor unions... Not Trenton...

It has been and can continue to be a very worthwhile discussion and one that our nation needs to be havin'....

Please, folks, if your intent is to change the dicussion (for whatever reason) or to dirive entertainment values from having highjacked a thread, please rethink why it is that you are posting on this thread...

And, for the record, yeah, you have a 1st ammendment right to say whatever you want (kinda) but there are lots of other threads that, IMO, need a good highjacking so why not take your 1st ammendment rights over there, thank you...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: AWG
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 05:18 PM

Ah heck, I was just trying to cut the union members some slack. The truth is they are ALL lazy, each and every danged one of them. One giant group of lazy dog f***ers, looking to do as little as possible, for as much money as possible. Oh yeah, and do whatever they like because they know they will never be fired by the poor, poor company that gets saddled with them. I can't believe you people who feel bad for poor people actually defend these union 'workers' (and I use the term loosely). I say get rid of unions all together, and donate the saved BILLIONS to help the poor. There, problem solved. Who's with me ???

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 05:15 PM

Kipp,

I am sorry you are going through that. I agree that for many poverty is a result of bad choices. It is not that way for ALL people, or even the majority. Some folks have no choices to begin with. They later have no choices to end with. You are correct that some know how to work the system. They can be bad MFs, and they tend to be until they meet someone badder.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 05:08 PM

Testy, not touchy.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: AWG
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 05:06 PM

I said not all union members were (are) lazy.(just most). You want proof, take a tour of any automobile mfg. facility operated by the big 3, or keep an eye on your local parks and rec. crew (you know, 10 guys leaning on shovels, while one guy digs). Don't get sensitive, just pay attention. If you are in a union, you are most likely lazy, but there is no guarantee of that, you might be one of the few who actually breaks a sweat. Why the heck do you think companies fight like hell to keep them out ??!! Duh. And Peace, you sure are touchy these days, but I admit, you sure spice up this thread. LOL (friggin' trolls, eh?)

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 02:25 PM

1) Please, either block that guy

or

2) Close this thread.


Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 12:23 PM

Hey, Peace... The poor guy is livin' in Trenton... That explains a lot.... Everyone is Trenton is lazy... LOL...

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,Kipp
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 12:22 PM

Education and lackof it has a lot to do with poverty. And when people are denined education because of a couriped school Board and administrators that is a travistry of justice And lack of read justice also has a lot to do with poverty

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 10:27 AM

An I will stand by my statemnet that that there are many if not most people that are in poverty because of the choices that they made . They may not be aware of it but there choices, life choices lead them there.
Right now I am living in a shelter and in that shelter areare one person with a Masters degree in finance from Harvard another person with two masters degrees a nuber of people with under graduate degrees. They are the most ovious and there aree many that have been in prison And most of all there are those that are crackheads alcholics and these people have no intention of stopping they have money coming in the sell there food stamps will sleep out side untill the money runs outand make their way back in. The other night some one had theor throat slashed over a dispute over who cut in line in front of who. The next night a man got the shit beat out of him for his cell phone. These are the poor people and they don,t all live in the shelters. They are violent visious hate white people and would just as soon kill you if it was not that they would go back to jail. I am not saying this is all but this a big part that live in the magor cities. And they want everything we have and they have no intention of working. They sell drugs get welfare get ther women hooked the y become prostitudets. its all here This is the reality and no one I mean no one has any answers and if they saay they do than they are liars

Kipp

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 10:14 AM

Guest: if you have a name, use it. Otherwise, you are just one more friggin' troll out to stir shit. Also, your post has zero relevance to this thread which has to do with poverty. If the substance of your allegations are true, take your knowledge to the police and the school board. You'll have to do so under your real name. Until then, kindly take your shit off this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 10:03 AM

Tenure has a lot to do with it Tenure that once protected teachers from gitting fired because of bad School boards Now school boards can not fire teachers for the things they have done that is criminal The school superhas choosen not to proceed because it would require to take thoose involved to court. All of this is in our local paperhere in Trenton New Jersey Also in the local paperit has been reported thaton of the male teachers 53 years old has been cought for the second time having sex with the same 17 year old student. He is still teaching by the wayUnbelieveable but sadly true. Ther are many stories like this but they don't all get to the news. Ireally does not make much difference as the public seems to be more interested in Paris Hilton, What Brittney Spears is not wearing and the whole soap opera surounding Anna Nicole Smith.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 09:54 AM

"First off, most union members (not all) are lazy, because they can be, that's a fact."

I don't suppose you want to get bogged down with anything as cumbersome as proof?

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 09:52 AM

Exxon is the biggest company in the world so naturally they have the biggest profit in the world, not percentage wise though, that goes to drug companies.

Exxon makes 70% of it's profits on operations in foregin countries.

Noam Chomsky, invests in Exxon and Halliburton through the TIAA-CREF stock fund.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 05:28 AM

AWG, do you understand what a gratuitous assertion is? What an idiotic thing you have said.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 02:13 AM

It is not a fact that union members are lazy. Union members are organized so that they don't become slaves.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: AWG
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 06:19 PM

Also, Barry, I agree with most of what you said but keep in mind that although Exxon may be pushing to increase profits, (what company isn't ?), they are also pushing to keep up with the ever increasing demand for their product. How do you get to work ?? Try it without companies like Exxon ! Better yet, try walking or riding a bike, or car-pooling (if you don't already). If you want to get smart, buy shares in Exxon, Haliburton, Chevron, Petro Canada, Suncore, Encana, and so on....just pick one and fatten your wallet. Then donate the profits to the charity of your choice !! Maybe youll sleep better at night, and find yourself saying " Go Exxon ...!! "

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: AWG
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 06:06 PM

"...*** Union members are lazy and/or immoral

*** Exxon is your friend

*** Poverty is a choice..."
First off, most union members (not all) are lazy, because they can be, that's a fact. Second, Exxon is not my friend, just another huge company (the biggest in the USA, by revenues, I believe), and lastly, nobody chooses to be poor, IMO, they may end up that way possibly because of some of the choices they have made in the past, but they can also choose to try to reverse their misfortune. They may or may not be successful but not for lack of trying. I guess I might fail Dickey's course. Oh yeah, just a thought... Exxon is raking in the cash, but is that their fault ?   They make more money as oil prices rise, but do they set the price of oil ? Let's face it, it's about supply and demand and demand is huge due to the gluttenous appetites of Americans and others who refuse to conserve. So blame yourselves, not Exxon !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 02:49 PM

I am not your friend. Piss off. You are the reason guests should not be allowed to post to the BS section.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 01:53 PM

"Nothing will happen as they have tenure."

That is speculation on your part. IMO, it's pure unadulterated bullshit. Tenure has nothing to do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,Kipp
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 12:24 PM

Not all the people are poor because of what happened to them they are poor because that is there choice. Just as it is the choice to be rich as some would say. It is lifes choices that put us where we are. And we have the choice to change. A good number of the poor are adicted to drugs of some sort or alcohol it may not be an easy thing to over come but then again life is not easy either.
There is a school district here in New Jersey that it was just reveal in the media that the school administrators falseified the records of about 100 students and made them thak over classes they had already passed,kee-p others back even though they recieved the credits to pass, and also gave some credit for classes the have never taken. The parents should have known and said somethingyet the did not. there was a whistle blower But after the stae finally stepped in the parent sueded the school board. which is not going to fix anything. there are a number of student that will not graduatebecause of the actions that the admistrator took. Nothing will happen as they have tenure.There are more details.
Anyhow we as Americans have stood back for far to long and have become vitums of the politcal systm in this country. It is both the right and the left republican and demicrate it does not discriminate. We have both parisites from the top and from the bottom. It is the working class thouse in the middle that are paying the most and have the most to lose. When the middle class start to become homeless then we are really in for some trouble. And I don't think that is to far fetched
                         Kipp

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 11:42 AM

Bobert's class warfare 101:

A.Why try to do things the responsible way?

B.Just attack the biggest target and try to convince everybody that it is the cause for something or other.

Independant thinking 101:

A. Witch hunts and burnings do not cure anything.

B. Class warfare and straw man falacies are misleading and do not cure anything.

C. Cures are found by studying the causes and removing them.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,Kipp
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 10:03 AM

I just have to interject here There is something that nobody on this thread seem to acknowledge and that is that poverty is a big businessand that a lot of the self profess dogooders are making a lot of money off the poor. It is in ther interest that the amount of poor people increase and that they get there welfare checks madicade housing subsidies and what ever so that they can get a peace of the pie. I anyone really didany real research they would come up with this themselves. And these poverty pims are not the rich but they do become rich and the are for the most part liberals not republicans. You only have to be homeless for a couple of mounths and live in a shelter as I have I live in the State of New Jersey which is Democrate Controlled property taxesare the highest in the nation and the State goverment is the biggest employer or at least on of the biggest. Housing is very expensive hare and that is not the fault of the rich,it has a lot to do with taxes

                   Kipp

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 08:12 AM

Flawed Thinking 101

Synopsis: This course will cover the the Big Three lies that the ruling class has propagated over the last half of the 20th century:

*** Union members are lazy and/or immoral

*** Exxon is your friend

*** Poverty is a choice

Schedule: Daily, flexible hours

Place: Mudcat

Teacher: Dickey

Notes: Enroll early as this class fills up quickly with True Believers

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Barry Finn
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 04:03 AM

Dickey I will pick on Exxon for you. In it's push for profit it has costed the people of Alaska there lively hoods, depleated their natural resources, poluted their coastline so that many of the coastal animals that inhabited the area will not see a rise in their population for generations & the fines imposed even after all these yrs have not been payed & the clean up was never completed & who paid for that?. Think, where do they get their oil from? What do they pay in costs to the owners of the land that they draw the oil from? Someone own's that land, someone owns those resources & those someones aren't seeing much from the granted oil & land rghts. The price of gas is skyrocketing & their profits are enormous, their tax brakes & shelters are getting larger all the time & the workers that are producing are not really seeing much in the way of wages & benifits. As a matter of fact Exxon has been pushing consistently over the years for reduced crews aboard their tankers & fighting double hull plating as saftey standards. So Dickey tell me about your rich friends & how they take care of the poor.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 01:13 AM

Bobert:

To make a class of the rich people is like saying Black people are responsible for this or Mexicans are responsible for that. You who spout off about bigotry are blind to your own bigotry.

Suppose I said poor people are responsible for crime or black people are responsible for the murders?

You have to take things on a person by person or company by company basis. Is every used car dealer a crook? Every politician? George Soros, John Kerry, Al Gore, Oprah Winfrey, John Edwards, Ted Kennedy are all wealthy but no doubt you will think they are great. I have associated with rich folks and most of them are so nice they make you feel good just to talk to them. They know how to lift your spirits and bring out the best in people. I also know a few rich greedy assholes that try to beat you down an demand more and more.

Why don't you draw your bead on MS13, drug pushers, credit card companies, rap artists with lyrics like find'em fuck'em and flee as a source of problems for poor people? Teenage unwed pregnancy and dropping out of school?

To me, Citicorp is a prime example of an evil company that tries to entrap niaeve young people into an 18 to 24% credit card debt that they will never be able to pay off. Their profit margin is mich higher than Exxon but you focus on Exxon as being evil. How does Exxon entrap poor people into anything?

You just look for the biggest easiest targets and claim they are the reason for poverty. Is it too hard to identify the real culprits and go after them? Is it too much trouble to try to separate the good from the bad or do you lack the judgement?

A lot or maybe most of the rich folks you are issuing a blanket comdenation on are cash cows that can be milked instead of killed and eaten.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 11:51 PM

Well written Mick. I do not know a lot about unions except that In my experience we avoided them as much as possible. When I think of unions I envision Mafia types as leaders and people sitting around reading magazines and making the upper $20's an hour at Ford because of some contract requirement and some lack of work for thier particular expertize. WTF? They can't stoop low enough to do something else? The earth might crack open if they do something that is not in the contract.

We had an ex-union man in our shop because he was banned from the union. He was a Business Agent who had taken bribes and embezzled money. I used to bum around with another and he damned near got me in jail several time by infulencing me into stealing things.

I am realted to another that is a real straight, workaholic and he has occasionally sided with the companies on the wages they have to pay. He also relates to me how his company buys another, liquidates it an fires everybody to eliminate competition.

All that said, I realize that I am probably biased against the unions and they are probably not so bad if I just knew more.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 10:06 PM

Probably it's more complex than simple envy. Remember the hit TV show of a few years ago, called something like 'The Rich and Famous', hosted by a Robin somebody. Some people enjoy looking in, so to speak. And fantasy is a powerful thing.

Maybe after putting oneself virtually into a beautiful home and whatnot, it is difficult - maybe not seemly - to put them down.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 09:35 PM

bobert - "I still wonder why a couple of folks here continue to support the rich, Unless of course they are part of the rich??? Other than that, I don't get it???"

I think they are envious of the wealthy. They also have the distorted idea that good = wealth and bad = poverty. Some people actually believe that God rewards people (financially) if they are righteous.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 08:34 PM

Well, fir a gub nut, that was purdy well said, Mick...

Awww, jus' messin; wid you about the gun thing... Go shoot off yer gun at midnight and I'll shoot mine and all will be okay...

But really, this is the real deal on wealth, money and the short end of the stick the non-rich have gotten since the RayGun years and if you ain't ben in the upper 5% then you know exactly what we are talking about here...


I still wonder why a couple of folks here continue to support the rich, Unless of course they are part of the rich??? Other than that, I don't get it???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 01:20 PM

My dear friend Janie asked me to lend some perspective a while back and I forgot to do it. I apologize for that.

I am not going to get into all the issues here, as that has been handled admirably, but rather I will provide a bit of historical perspective on labor, and where it is today.

Before doing so, I would like to second Dianavan on the issue of the underclass vs the overclass. It is quite simple to see the effect of capital centering in fewer hands, which is the mark of success for the overclass. When it happens, we create and ever larger underclass, and at the top of the underclass is the working poor. Folks like Janie who are eminently qualified, educated, and effective in their profession. Yet they have a hard time supporting their families. I don't dispute that business create jobs. But business is created by a healthy middle class. The dream that became the United States of America happened because, after a bumpy start, we created a prosperous middle class. Look at all the great civilizations, they rose to prosperity on the backs of the middle class, and failed when the middle class weakened. It is not a new concept.

One of the most important pieces to creating this prosperous middle class, was their empowerment by law, beginning in 1888 with the first federal law that protected workers. This was in the railroad industry. It is interesting to note that all labor law is rooted in commerce law, to protect commerce. In the case of the first federal law, it was to insure the trains ran. Many laws followed, including Taft-Hartley, Landrum-Griffin, etc. These are now embodied in the National Labor Relations Act. Labor law is a favorite ping pong ball in politics, depending on the mood of the electorate. The years beginning with the Reagan Administration until present have seen labor weakened to point worse than we have seen in many years.

Much is made of the fact that Organized Labor now represents around 8% of the workforce. When one eliminates from the figure the workers not eligible to be organized, the number is somewhere around 20%. At one time the labor unions represented about 36% of the workers in this country. There are many reasons for the decline, including technology. But one cannot minimize the effects of two very important things. One is the unfair trade laws which penalize American workers for having fair wages and benefits. In the pursuit of profits, the company CEO's justify shifting work to countries that have very poor environmental standards, very poor worker safety protection laws, and no ability to form effective collective bargaining units. The effect of this is simply moving the sweatshop to other countries and thenshipping the same product back here. Testament to this is the incredible profit made by corporations. Once upon a time in America, the boss would keep a company going as long as s/he could cover expenses, and try to preserve jobs. Today a company will close, not because it isn't profitable, but because it isn't profitable enough. The second reason for the shrinking of most unions has to do with the steady erosion of labor laws which served to protect the workers right to organize. I used to wish that I had the Canadian laws to organize under. Unfortunately the disease that has decimated America's Unions has spread north and infected Canada. Their laws are still superior to ours, but they are in decline. And there is a corresponding drop in the prosperity of the middle class with the labor laws being weakened. I used to be able to assure workers that they could not be fired for organizing a union. I can no longer say that with confidence. The National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) is ostensibly the organization that was created to represent the interests of the worker. Today it is run by pro business interests. At the street level, the Board Agents are still overwhelmingly pro worker. But the Administration is so pro business that Board Agents often are worried that if they find in favor of the worker, it will be killed at a higher level. These things, among many others, have all contributed to the shrinking of America's organized workforce. One last thing before I move on to the next piece. Many unorganized workers have expressed a desire to be organized, and support for the concept of unions, but are very afraid because they have families to raise. Were there the climate free of harassment and intimidation, as the law supposedly protects, there would be a much higher percentage of organized workers.

As to the state of labor. Janie suggest that the International Unions have strayed from their traditional roles and have become big businesses unto themselves. While I am sure there are some like that, I must tell you that is not the case in my union, or in many others that I have worked with. Virtually every labor leader that I have worked with are radically inclined, and in the fight every single day of their lives. I have seen examples of labor officials that were simply drawing their checks and not really working hard for the membership, but they are the exception rather than the rule. In virtually every institution this is the case, and Organized Labor should not be held to a different standard.

But that does lead me to an area that I believe some labor leaders need to pay attention to. When we started, we were a movement. Once Unions became established as legal bargaining representatives, they became institutions. When we are under attack, as we are now, we take on the radical aspects of a movement, and that is when we shine. I am always troubled when labor organizations call themselves partners with management. We are not partners with management. Workers are not associates. Workers need to pay attention to the perceptual attack they are under. An Associate plays golf with the boss. We are workers. We bargain our labor for wages and benefits. When the economy is good, and laws fair, we profit by virtue of our labor's worth to the company. When the economy is down, and laws weakened, it is often our concessions that save companies. The perceptual battle occurs after concessions when we try to get back our share. We are called greedy. Another example of perceptual warfare is going on right now with the sale of Chrysler. The press and management are prepping the public for their attack on retirees and workers by creating the perception that the legacy costs are outrageous, and of course they must be brought in line. They are trying to get you to buy into this,in the hopes you won't remember the pension raids of 20 years ago. Want to know why the funds aren't there for retiree health care and pension benefits. Because the Reagan courts allowed the raid of the excess pension funds even though they were simply the earnings of the negotiated pension contributions of the workers. This left the pension funds underfunded. And here we are.

Be careful of the perceptual attack. These folks talk about retiree health benefits as if they were a bad thing. And you folks nod your heads. I kind of liken it to gas prices going from $2.00 a gallon to $3.00 a gallon and everyone being happy when it drops back to $2.50 a gallon.

Do you feel like you just asked an Irishman what time it is? **smile**

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 01:03 PM

"One of the most disturbing and extraordinary aspects of life in this very wealthy country is the persistence of hunger. The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) reported that in 2005:

35.1 million people lived in households considered to be food insecure.

Of those 35.1 million, 22.7 million are adults (10.4 percent of all adults) and 12.4 million are children (16.9 percent of all children).

The number of people in the worst-off households (previously called "food insecure with hunger" and now called "very low food security" households) rose in 2005, from 10.7 to 10.8 million."

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 12:52 PM

"Most material things except food ARE nearly worthless"

Very true Peace. There are rich people in varying degrees who are willing to pay too much for things and that creates an inflated net worth on paper.

Take those people who can overpay out of the picture and we are back to the barter system. What would a Van Gough be worth if there was nobody that could afford it? Someone that owned a chicken that could lay eggs would be richer that the Van Gough owner.

Bobert: It is not that "the-economy-woould-collapse-without-rich-people". It that the economy would collapse if rich people had to liquidate all the stuff that makes them rich, like $300 million yachts, in order to fork it over to the poor folks. Who would buy it? The poor folks?

Who would buy Larry Ellison's Yacht for $300 million? It would be worth about as much as a rowboat if all the rich folks were selling all their expensive stuff in order to fork it over to the poor.

Bobert has his mind fixed on rich folks as his final answer and he thinks objectively to find whatever it takes to arrive at that conclusion. Objective thinking rather than subjective thinking.

Why did those "real economists" have to pay for that ad Bobert?

If it is true and the rich folks and the government are in control of the media, how did it ever get published?


(Asked of 484 adults in Form A) Do you think the tax cuts which Congress passed and George W. Bush signed into law have mostly helped the U.S. economy, have had no effect or have mostly hurt the U.S. economy over the past three years?

Mostly helped          39%
No effect               23
Mostly hurt             35
No opinion               3

(Asked of 531 adults in Form B) Do you think the tax cuts which Congress passed and George W. Bush signed into law have mostly helped your family, have had no effect or have mostly hurt your family over the past three years?

Mostly helped          34%
No effect               48
Mostly hurt             16
No opinion               2

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 12:22 PM

"Rich people make the world go around"

You have it exactly backward. Its those who provide service and labour who make the world go 'round. If the rich people had no employees, they wouldn't be rich at all. They would have to do their own work. How long do you think that would last?

If you start appreciating the contributions of the working class and pay them accordingly, their taxes would be able to provide programs and services for the poor. The upper classes have little or no understanding of poverty but the middle classes do, unless they've brainwashed into worshipping the rich.

I would go so far as to say that it is the worship of the rich by the middle classes that does the most harm to the poor.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 07:30 AM

Ah hah... Finally we have the "the-economy-woould-collapse-without-rich-people" argument... This is the cvornerstone of the Bush economic policy... Problem is that, like the flat-earth scientists that Bush brought into his administartion, he also surrounded himself with flat-earth economists...

There have been a couple full page ads in the Post over the last few years paid for and signed by hundreds of real-economists 'round the country who say "hog-wash" to the theory that the tax cuts that Bush gave the upper 1% are driving this economy...

Actually, the only segment of the population really feel the economy is doing well are the rich and upper middle class... Everyone else fully understands that this is not a full-service economy as these "everyone elses" are losing ground from stagnant wages and run-away inflation....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 12:27 AM

"most material things except food would be nearly worthless"

Most material things except food ARE nearly worthless. You have a mixed up sense of priorities. To quote a lime from the movie 'Platoon', "Ya gotta be rich in the first place t' think like that. Sheeeeit."

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,Janie
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 12:26 AM

Thanks, Harpgirl. I didn't take the time to do more than skim right now, but clearly she is a voice worth listening to, and I will definitely take time later to read what is available on-line.

Here is a link to some Publications by Sharon Beder.

harpgirl, do I recall correctly that you have either a Ph.D. in Social Work or a DSW? What are your particular areas of interest?

Janie