BS: Death Penalty?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Cruiser
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:46 PM

Susan,

Have you ever had a close relative murdered? I have and the pain is tremendous, especially for the parents. Those parents are fundamentalist Christians. They wanted justice (death) to the kidnapper, rapist, and murderer of their teenaged daughter. She suffered a tortured death with a cattle prod, super glue in her eyes, and duct tape on her mouth and hands a she traveled in the trunk of his car before her mutilated, dead body was dumped in the desert. Fortunately, the murderer was killed by a brave law enforcement officer in a hand-to-hand fight when he was apprehended while on the run. His name was Christopher Wilder. He kidnapped and killed many young models in his reign of terror.

Why on earth would any reasonable person want such a man to live? His appeals would likely be ongoing today.

Cruiser

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:29 PM

For me, the productive meditation about the death penalty is this one:

If I am against it, logically, as an intentional and deliberate extension or application of my values system, when I consider the issue in general, then what is all that stuff that happens in my head, heart, and spirit when a crime so stirs me up that I want to kill the bastard who did it?

And if I should choose to reframe my position, and be for it, then what is all that stuff that happens in my head, heart, and spirit when a personal transgression committed against me (as I perceive it) first stirs me up so much that I want to kill the bastard who did it, but then LATER, if I am honest, I have always found a way to forgive and, usually, even, resume dealings with that person when I have sorted out all that stuff (and maybe they have too)?

The "crime" and the "stuff" vary with the circumstances, but the pattern of "kill then forgive" seems constant.

So... I find I cannot be in favor of a permanent, time-determined approach to punishment, when by my own example I can see how a process of reconciliation is at least theoretically possible, given enough time. It isn't so much that I want the perp to have more time.... it's the society dealing with the event that I want not to limit by a policy of finality.

Also, I find that I cannot make life or death decisions based on financial preferences-- the argument that it's cheaper to kill than house murderers seems quite barbaric to me-- and pretentious, because somehow it never seems to be the people having to actually decide on or implement the sentence who start from that place, but the bystanders.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Cruiser
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:23 PM

Yes, yes, a gazillion times yes!!!................................

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:12 PM

We either believe in the sanctity of life or we don't.

No, no, a thousand times no!!!........

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:01 PM

For it...

In extreme cases like Paul Bernardo, Charles Manson, Jeffry Dhamer... anyone who absolutely CANNOT be helped... Why waste the money keeping them alive sucking on the state teat? One 25 cent bullet to the back of head and the problem is solved...

And if more than 2 people SAW you do whatever crime it is that got you convicted, or if your crime invloved a single child (Especially if your 'vocation' required you to wear a while collar while you were violating children) or the consumption of human flesh, you get NO appeals... you don't hang around on Death Row for 10 or 15 years... you get taken out behind the woodshed immediately after your trial, and you don't come back...

We can call that "The Express Lane"

For that matter, while yer at it, bring back the guillotine, and the gallows, and make sure there's TV coverage by my local cable TV station! Sell tickets, and popcorn and big foam hands that say "We're #1" on 'em for the kiddies!

Make it a family event!

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 12:49 PM

Hurt my family, I hurt you. Life is simple for me.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 12:47 PM

Amos:

Nice argument, but does that apply to the Americans who planned the bombing of Hiroshima & Nagasaki,or do we accept 'extenuating circumstances'?

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Cruiser
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 12:31 PM

Hang 'em High.

(or barring that, send 'em to Hull for punishment. Sorry jOhn, could not resist.)

This is the only life we have and society should not have to support or tolerate the likes of 'em. Give them their just reward here and now because they will not get it from anyone, anywhere, anytime or anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 10:25 AM

My sense is that there are surely some crimes for which the death penalty is appropriate.

For example, if you are in a position to activate a weapon which then destroys the lives of thousands of people and leaves hundreds of them dead, and hundreds more broken or dismembered, or mad with pain and stress...and you go ahead and push that button, and the fields are then littered with corpses of people who would have been alive if you hadn't done so, and you did this with full reflection and malice aforethought...let's say, for discussion's sake, that it was 2000 lives all told on your hands...wouldn't that be reasonable grounds for capital punishment? Or at least, impeachment?

A

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Bohdran Killer
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 10:05 AM

It also says in the Bible " thou shalt not suffer a witch to live "
We have not learned much since those days have we ?
Thank god I'm an atheist.
Killer

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 09:51 AM

Strongly in favor of it but it's a terrible idea. One mistake is too many.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 09:51 AM

And think of all the other ballads that would have been written since, had we not the sense to outlaw it. Guildford four? Birmingham six?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 09:43 AM

I was always under the impression that what was said in the good book was "Thou shalt not commit murder" not, "Thou shalt not kill".

Personally I am against it - judicial systems are all too fallible. Thought that way ever since hearing "The Ballad of Timothy Evans" when I was about fourteen.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Partridge
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 09:29 AM

Against it

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 09:15 AM

Old joke, kill one man and you're a murderer, kill a million and you're a world leader.
eric

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 08:12 AM

Harvey/Giok - I know what you're saying - and (probably!) agree. But I think the issue really is about who's doing the killing, not that killing is wrong in principle. In other words , the pro lobby says it's wrong for individuals to kill, but it's not wrong for the state to do it.An argument of pragmatism, then, rather than principle, it seems to me.
Dáithí

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:01 AM

For people within the European Union, this is a settled issue. Individual countries don't have the power to bring back it back, even if they wanted to.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 06:31 AM

If it is wrong for them to kill,it must,logically speaking, be wrong for us to do the same.
John

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 06:15 AM

Where does it say "Thou shalt not kill, except to kill killers"? And if you kill killers are you a killer yourself? And if you're a killer should you be killed for killing a killer because you thought killing wrong, except if you decide to kill only killers?
Just asking.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: alanabit
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 04:30 AM

I am against it for anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: mooman
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 04:17 AM

Against it.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 03:53 AM

No, as a deterrant it has proved useless, to use it now reduces it to a mere act of revenge.
eric

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 03:50 AM

Define terrorists John. The miserable set of Fenian bastards who murder innocent English folk or the glorious freedom fighters of Erin struggling against the yoke of British oppresion?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Gurney
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 03:37 AM

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: C-flat
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 03:00 AM

Every conviction has to be "beyond reasonable doubt" or they should be found innocent and yet there has always been miscarriages of justice and always will be. I could easily fall into the "flog 'em and hang 'em" brigade, especially where crimes against children occur, but unless our legal system is completely and 100% foolproof how can you advocate the death penalty?

Subject: RE: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:46 AM

ok, the question is now a bit easier=
should we exterminate Child Killers, Terrorists and Cop Killers?
if not, why not?

[if they were convicted beyond all reasonable doubt, ie you KNOW they killed someone, children, cop or innocent folk?

Subject: BS: DEath Penalty?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:42 AM

Yes or no, shou;ld we kill the bad guys [they are usually men]
no big stories, yes or no?