ADD: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc (bawdy)

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,Chuck the Canuck
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 04:42 PM

Hey Little John Cameron,

Aren't you supposed to be Canadian? All of the stuff cited in your poem might pertain to the U.S.A. with its constitutionally mandated separation of church and state, but that is not the case in Canada.

The Lord's Prayer is still recited at the beginning of the day in many Canadian schools. As a Jew who was forced to learn the Lord's Prayer when I went to school, I wish we had that separation here.

Chuck the Canuck

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 04:14 PM

Bill D. hear, hear, but first of all why is there a Pledge of Allegiance? do away with the whole thing, AND take those four words of the money, AND stop the swearing-in of our government leaders on a Christian bible, etc. There has been more and more encroachment of religion into our civil institutions over time, and many people today do not even know that those words weren't on money until 1864, or that there was no Pledge of Allegiance until 1892 (written by a Christian Socialist), with no mention of 'under god' in it until the Knights of Columbus rammed it through a red hunting Congress in 1954, and that there is no law requiring it be said in schools or anywhere else until recently. We do not threaten the majority, just leave us be free! by 'we' I mean all individuals, ----believers in god, or gods, or satan, or nothing, or whatever.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 03:59 PM

"Freedom of religion must necessarily imply the right to freedom from religion for those who so choose"

pray all you wish, but not AT me, not as part of the school procesure, and not in a way that assumes I am in agreement with your prayer/diety.

(and {USA} take those two words back out of the "Pledge of Allegience" and those four words off my money!)

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 03:41 PM

Willie-O: The poem that ljc posted refers, in the first stanza, to "this great nation under God". I suppose that most Americans would take this as a reference to the US Pledge of Allegiance. ljc didn't say where he found the poem, or where the student was from, so we can't assume that the author is someone ljc knows.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 03:20 PM

Gee, I got some really neat-o religious spam, written by some ignorant lower-midwestern cow posing as a poor, oppressed Xtian teenager in my inbox today! Maybe I should cut and paste it here, too? :P

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Willie-O
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 03:04 PM

Wey-ell, Ah'm confused.

Most posters here are assuming this is about (aboot) the US of A. John, aren't you still in Newfoundland? (a province where a religious-based school system has been the norm until very recently--change is occurring now, I believe. Is that what prompted this?)

And anywhere that is enjoying a neo-conservative governmental regime, it ain't exactly a "freedom scene" in high school. Dress codes, limited arts options, and lots of uninspired fact-cramming passing for a "new curriculum"--I'm speaking as a parent of a very bright 15-year-old who is flunking out of grade 10 because it won't meet her halfway (and neither will she).

We fought and won the battle against compulsory school prayer and "religious education" years ago. I'm still glad about that, but there's little more to cheer for in the current educational regime.

And someone who would lump together "vampires, witchcraft and totem poles", in an apparently negative context, needs a broadening of horizons more than a prayer meeting.

W-O

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:50 PM

where is the anecdotal or other evidence that Jimmy couldn't say his blessing?

If there was such a case, shame, stupid. But I don't believe there has been or ever will be such a case.

Make up something more egregiously outrageous and stupid, and people will again say, 'yeah that's wrong'. But it hasn't happened.

'Jimmy, say all the prayers you want at lunch or anywhere else'. Some other kids might make fun of you if your lips move too much, but kids are cruel.

There are courses in History of Religion in must colleges and universities, some high schools, but my fear is that courses like this might become teach all about Christianity for 8 months and spend a month on all the other religions, if that. And again, I have no evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, that this has ever happened, and so I'm not giving an example of what abuse has occurred, but I can see that it might happen in some communities. And ad hominem attacks do not advance your argument or support your theories. to each his own.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Kim C
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:39 PM

When I was in the 4th grade, in 1976, my public elementary school did a holiday program wherein Christmas and Hanukkah traditions were included. Nobody batted an eye, nobody made a peep. 'Course that was a long time ago.

I think what is happening is that some people want to strive for diversity but only for the minority populations, then the majority populations feel slighted. Does that make sense?

Sure, there's no law in the US against praying wherever you want to. But what happens is that some well-meaning people misinterpret that to mean that Jimmy can't say a blessing to himself before he eats his lunch in the cafeteria.

Has anyone considered the idea of approaching religion in school from a historical standpoint? Whether a person participates in a religious faith or not, religion is a worldwide concept which often dictates how people behave. I think it could be useful for young people to learn about it from a factual basis.

Anyway.... I'm not sure exactly what I'm trying to say...

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Amos
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:05 PM

Beautiful prose, eh?

We'd all do well to take it to heart regardless of which metaphysical convictions we choose.

A

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:03 PM

I found the reference for my last post: Matthew 6:6

Here are the first 6 verses of Matthew 6 (King James Version of the New Testament):

[1] Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
[2] Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
[3] But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
[4] That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
[5] And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
[6] But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.


I don't know if the other major (or minor) religions have similar edicts, but many Christians tend to ignore this one!

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:02 PM

The Christian right is forever misrepresenting the law to make it appear that they are victims. The law does NOT say you can't pray in public schools. (Which is not to say there has never been a school official somewhere who has misunderstood the law and incorrectly TRIED to prevent students from praying in school.)

What the law mainly says is that teachers and administrators in public schools can't LEAD prayers or order that prayers be said. But if students on their own initiative decide to pray, there's nothing you can do to stop them. (Unless they're doing it in a disruptive way somehow, but you wouldn't want to do that anyway, would you?)

But if you ask me, there are plenty of good RELIGIOUS reasons not to pray aloud in public schools.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Amos
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:00 PM

John:

As far as I know, noone has been forbidden from praying. The law at least at the Constitutional level is against the establishment of any religion or religous sponsorship by the government. This mandate is called "the separation of Church and State", colloquially. It is NOT called "the separation of religion and individual".

The issue is that our government must NOT support one religion or another in any way the encroaches on the freedom of individuals to worship as they choose.

I grant you that the current Residency is striving mightily to weasel the issue and duck the principle. But that is the source policy.

IO highly concur that an education in the nature of ethics and philosophy would be a wonderful thing to require of high schools.

I am sure there are those who would whine about that too!! "We don't need no stinking Greek philosophers -- buncha furriners!! I get all the fee-losofy I need from this here Aramaic testamentary!!"

A

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:00 PM

Is your english as bad as your scots Cameon..you are shameful in both from what I can see. I wish you would stop that silly dialect thing. You do it badly and it makes it difficult to understand you, which is the point of communicating, is it not.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 01:56 PM

Didn't Jesus teach that prayers are best said in private, where only God can hear?

Subject: Ya...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 01:54 PM

Religion has no place in a school... A school is an institute for higher learning...

Ya want religion?

Go to the building down the street with the stain glass windows and the bell!

And while I'm at it... this is a family place... can we keep the profanity, at least out of the subject lines???

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 01:52 PM

Mah point isnae aboot teachin Religion,it is aboot no' bein aloud tae say ah wee prayer tae whaever.Look aroon ye,the bloody place is gaun doon the tubes. ljc

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 01:52 PM

Amen to that, LEJ! ';^)

Ljc: What bit of Bill's post did you object to? The only part I had trouble with was the concept that teenagers will be "ok" if they're left alone to hang out. Perhaps that works if they're not left alone as children – if they're brought up to be mindful of others' rights and feelings and respectful of their own bodies and characters – but sometimes, even then, they don't turn out "ok."

By the way, were there some lines missing from the original poem? I see no rhyming line for "The law is specific, the law is precise." I assume that there was no rhyming line for "So, Lord, this silent plea I make:" since it was a silent plea!

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 01:25 PM

I'm not big on teaching religious instruction or celebration in school, but we damn sure need classes on ethical behavior, since so many kids get their concept of right and wrong from MTV.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 12:50 PM

What did you learn in school today?
Mommy, I learned how to pray
I asked Jesus to forgive my sins
For my heart's where the devil's work begins

It's good they're teaching wrong from right
And the schools have finally seen the light

What did you learn in school today?
Mommy, we followed the Jewish way
We learned that Jesus was a phoney
And for lunch, they wouldn't let us eat bologna

Well, I don't think that those higher powers
Should teach beliefs that are not ours!

Today we prayed on knees and hands
Towards the place where Mecca stands
At Islam, teacher had us look
She'd read all about it in a book
What's next? Of Paganism will they speak?
Well no, at least not till next week.

Mom, religions they have stopped explaining
Too many parents were complaining
That beliefs should not be taught by teachers
And they were better left to preachers

I'm glad that they finally saw the light
Prayer in school just isn't right

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 12:37 PM

Whit bit is it ye object tae Tony? ljc.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,ferret
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 12:25 PM

live and let live

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: TonyK
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 12:20 PM

LJC: I support your right to express your opinion. I thought the choice of language in your post, intolerant, was not something that would attract a prospective Christian. To my recollection, the only people Jesus did not tolerate well were the religious intollerants. Love God and love your neighbor.

Bill K: I like your post a lot.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: RichM
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 12:16 PM

The question is, whose god should people worship?

Mine?
Yours?
His?
Hers?
Theirs?

Already, it's complicated.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,haryoungsr
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 12:01 PM

i for one think schools should be a place where no religion is celebrated in our schools i see xmas trees xmas decorations but no kwanzaa,ramadan,a bit chanukah but only a token amount there ought to be a law schools are disgracefula t xmas time time to close them down from thanksgiving to after new years

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:55 AM

For"CHRIST SAKE!!!"Bill,that's the maist Oxymorons ah've ever seen in a single post.Whit a pile o' rubbish.ljc

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:48 AM

ballocks - you can pray out loud anytime anywhere, just don't MAKE students in classrooms have to pray or make it awkward for students to decline to do so. Pray on the street, pray in a building, out loud, anytime, but don't require others to join in, and not under the auspices of governmental agencies, including school boards and administrations.

How hard is this to understand?

No one is taking away your rights, so stop encroaching on others rights. The US is NOT, I repeat, NOT a 'Christian Nation'. It wasn't founded as one, it will never become one. It is a secular country that allows the freedom of practice of any and all religions, and does not sponsor a State religion. This 'Nation under God' thing didn't begin until the 1950's, with the Red scare of 'Godless' Communism, which was just a ruse to get the 'good Christian folk' to join the anti-Communism, and anti-union, and anti-Socialism crusade. And, sadly, it worked. Communism and Socialism as systems are not evil though particular regimes may be. What do you think is the system under which nuns and monls and priests live if not Communism? From each according to his abilities to each according to his needs. They give up thier worldy goods and give a life of service and in return they are housed and fed and given a little spending money to do with what they like (a generalisation, but basically sound). & Northern Europe has many Socialist states that support or allow religious practices. The Soviet Union did not. Cuba is beginning to.

So the great evil of Communism, that it is godless and suppresses religious practice is not a part of its philosophy, any more than the US Constitution is in anyway a testament to the Christian beliefs of its creators.

Practice whatever religion you like, just don't make everyone else have to join you. Leave our schools alone. Get out of our government and look to your own salvation in your churches, synagogues, mosques, temples, shrines and homesand in your daily lives.

And every now and then we can all get together and sing some good old time hymns we all know and love, whether we believe in what they espouse or not!

And why is it a surprise that this was written by a teen? Shakespeare it ain't, but it's not bad, it scans pretty well, but teens are pretty smart, inteligent, generaly ok folk. Leave em alone, give them some space to hang out, do thier thing, and they'll be ok.

Subject: RE: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:41 AM

Aint that the truth LJC Fuck em all, pray and say what you like.

Subject: Fuck-All tae dae wi' music ljc
From: little john cameron
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:04 AM

Now I sit me down in school
Where praying is against the rule
For this great nation under God
Finds mention of Him very odd.

If Scripture now the class recites,
It violates the Bill of Rights.
And anytime my head I bow
Becomes a Federal matter now.

Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
That's no offence; it's a freedom scene.
The law is specific, the law is precise.
For praying in a public hall
Might offend someone with no faith at all.

In silence alone we must meditate,
God's name is prohibited by the state.
We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks.

They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
To quote the Good Book makes me liable.
We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.

It's "inappropriate" to teach right from wrong,
We're taught that such "judgments" do not belong.
We can get our condoms and birth controls,
Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.

But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
No word of God must reach this crowd.
It's scary here I must confess,
When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
So, Lord, this silent plea I make:

Amen

this was written by a student.ljc