What sort of folk club is yours?

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 06:14 AM

I was recently reminding myself of what acoustic sessions were on in my area via Traditional Music Sessions in Sussex and Surrey. Very useful definitions of what goes on at each session. I'd be wary of just turning up at some without a clear idea of what I was letting myself in for!

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 06:05 AM

I'm not sure about definitions being unhelpful, Al. Agree absolutely about the R&B thing - just when the hell DID that happen btw? I like to have a general idea of what I am letting myself in for though and without some sort of definition how would I know if I was going to a festival of accoustic music or a techno rave?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 05:37 AM

definitions are odious and unhelpful.

i remember being shocked when |I heard Quincy Jones refer to Saturday Night Fever as R and B.

Rand B had always meant Muddy Waters, Buddy Guy and Chuck Berry (at a stretch0.

Nowadays R and B means some girl band whispering sweet nothings to a disco beat.

folk, Schmolk...who cares. we know what we mean.

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 05:10 AM

Whoops - HTML cock up but I am sure you get the gist:-)

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 05:09 AM

Of 60s style clubs, Barbara asks >i>and I'm not sure what you don't like about that, David.

I have never said I don't like anything about them, Barbara. What makes you say I don't? I just said I would not, personaly, do it myself. I am more than happy for people to run any kind of club they want and I have said over and over and over no single type of club is better than another. Rest assured that if your club were closer to me I would be there regularly:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 07:12 PM

I organise a club on the basis of 2 singers/musicians nights then one guest night. Without exception our guests have been entertaining and I ask for feedback after everyone (yours was particularly good Mr Bliss although I sadly missed your performance) - we pay the fee requested, provide accomodation when asked and have good attendances. Our singers nights are also very well attended with a diverse range of traditional and contemporary muscians and singers - we don't have any bad performances but we do have people who improve with every performance they give. We keep our prices reasonable, pay a hefty PRS fee but have a great room and landlord who can outplay most people I know. IF it was any different why would I want to spend hours every night answering emails listening to demos and doing publicity? I worry for folk performers simply because of the sheer volume of them out there and because most clubs have budget constraints.Folk clubs are a sum of their parts and I am grateful for the members of our club which create its success.

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 06:33 PM

Correction to that last post: "Kent" should have been "Hampshire" - I sent Bob off in the wrong directon! :-)

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 06:29 PM

Bob Copper was asked to go out and about by the BBC with a portable tape recorder in the '60s (read his book "Songs and Southern Breezes") to collect songs from singers in rural communities, mainly in the south of England. His short time as the landlord of a pub in Kent stemmed from his travels on his recording activity. The book describes it very fully. I can't recall exactly what the equipment was - but it would have been the standard, radio reporter's portable kit of the period.

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 06:22 PM

Bob Copper - his recording equipment???

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: BB
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 03:26 PM

"If anyone feels that Folk clubs will thrive again by going back to what was happening in the 60s then they are more than welcome to open a club in that style."

In one sense, I think that's exactly what we're doing at our club - and I'm not sure what you don't like about that, David. Leadfingers' thought on it was the same as mine - it was the sheer diversity of styles which created the richness of the experience.

As I've said before, once a month ours operates in singaround style, and once a month as, effectively, a concert with pre-booked local performers and a main guest. The only differences from the '60s on that night is that the local performers are pre-booked, and the guest does 2 x 45 mins. instead of 2 x 30 mins. We have a wide range of music within what might be called the 'folk canon' - we haven't quite got to the Jug Band yet (only because we haven't found one), nor are there many guest acts doing Music Hall these days, but we wouldn't rule them out.

We don't call it a folk club (not wanting to mislead the likes of Jim C!), but Shammick Acoustic (thus not calling it a club either). Although the singaround nights have been going for some years, the concerts have only been going for 18 months, and it seems finally that numbers might be rising as word is going around our (quite large) village that these concerts are pretty good entertainment. Interestingly though, they appear to be calling it 'folk' even though we don't!

Hopefully, people are hearing a fair amount of traditional music and song in amongst other things, and won't think of it as anything rare or strange as many of Joe Public seem to do. What I hope we provide is good quality acoustic music and song without too much labelling.

Barbara

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 02:08 PM

Tom,
Thinking on your point further (thanks for that).... I would have thought that, certainly in the UK anyway, any concept of the term 'folk' from outside the clubs, (if not from Miss Pringle jangling out 'Jackie Boy-Master on the school upright) would rather be drawn from the 'folk boom' era, taking in such performers as The Dubliners, The Clancys and The Spinners, rather than John Denver.
The Spinners were still producing top selling albums decades after the boom subsided.
All of these groups were producing sounds that were light years closer to the real thing than virtually everything that passes for 'folk' nowadays.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: mattkeen
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 06:15 AM

Sorry for the typos - I am supposed to be working!

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: mattkeen
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 06:14 AM

I think new names for a folk club is essential if you want a younger crowd
I hope it works in Coventry
Its working for Sam Lee at the Magpie's Nest in London

Might be an idea to ask the young performers what sort of club/night where their peers might turn up to?

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 06:05 AM

Al - 'I, for one, don't believe in going backwards and look forward to what comes out of the current Folk revival'.

For the first bit - I would not like to go back to the Folk club models of the 60s or 70s just as I would not like to wear flairs and satin shirts. Been there, done that. Want something new:-)

Second bit - There seems to be a huge boost in Folk at the moment with all sorts of main stream events and media coverage. Lots of young performers coming out of it as well, both traditional and contemporary. I am realy looking forward to seeing how this will resolve at grass rotts level. New and young people finding they want more? Starting new Folk clubs under a different name? I dunno - It's exciting to see if and how it will develop.

Any clearer?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 04:40 AM

There was an interesting article on the 1956 definition in a scholarly Boston journal, whose title and author unfortunately escape my ageing brain (Malcolm Gebhart, possibly?). In it, he commented that the never ending wrangles over the 1956 definition ("what is folk music?", etc.) invariably revolve around the origins of the music - as opposed to the purpose of the music.

I've often thought that the music, as defined by that definition, was pickled and packaged when Sharp, RVW and others started the collecting process by noting it all down, and when people like the Lomaxes and Bob Copper went out with their recording equipment and captured it on wax and tape. There may be vestiges of the oral tradition left in the Western world, but I'll bet there aren't many 'Catters (for example) who didn't get the greater part of their repertoire, in the main, from recordings or from books. Jim Copper wrote down all the songs he'd known - in his songbook. Thereby saving them, and "freezing" them for subsequent generations.

If you accept that this is true - and you don't have to (!) - then comes the question: what is the purpose of the clubs? To sing the stuff in a way that (we assume, but we don't know) it's always been sung? To rework the material in an individual way - and, if so - by how much? To add to it by individual composition - within the traditional style - without that style? Is it, for example, an art form to sing something beautifully in a strictly "traditional" fashion, following the precepts and style of older generations? Or is an art form something that inevitably develops - and, in fact, can't help but develop?

For me, the beauty of the best folk clubs is in clubs where you can hear a rich mixture of old and new music - entertain and be entertained. Clubs which are warm and welcoming, and have a communal and community spirit. Where friends and strangers can meet to make music. It also goes without saying - and this is a purely personal view - that performers in those clubs, whatever they do, should do it to the best of their ability. But's another thread!

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Fidjit
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 04:34 AM

Ah! Now you're talking Tom!

Chas

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 04:31 AM

Jim I agree that the forces you cite have certainly been at work. And I admit that I plucked my 60m figure from thin air - but I was basing on a world view. That world view has been coloured by a decision made in the US (where roots, not being so deep in local soil, perhaps, are seen differently, and where clearly indigenous art is celebrated whatever its age) in the 1950s and 60s to accept contemporary songwriters who present in a particular style as folk musicians. The route between UStrad, Guthrie, Dylan and Denver is well travelled, and whatever we may think of the wisdom of applying the same criteria on this side of the pond too; it happened. I'm sorry that you can't accept it but the broad, confusing, annoying, misleading application of that word across the English-speaking world IS a fact of life - and we'll get nowhere until we take that fact on board.

Yes we must decide how we're going to deal with the problem, because this ill definition lies at the root of the issue we're discussing here - confused 'brand' identity. Because you're completely right when you say "success or failure of the music depends on being clear on what you are trying to present."

If we didn;t use the saem word to describe all of Dave three types of club, you'd not have a problem (as long as the word folk was only applied to the type which fidded your understanding of the word. But it's not your word. It belongs just as much to those who use it to describe a community activity as a repertoire. The clubs where any kind of music goes as long as it's presented in a particular way, and accepted by that group.

A world dictator needing to solve this problem might be tempted to insist of different words for each type of club - and there are clearly more than 3. I just tried jotting down all the different permutations and gave up at 15.

Yet all these permutations can and do go under the title of 'folk club' - and even those who carefully avoid one or both of those words are called folk clubs at times.

So we have two challenges.

1) How more accurately to brand the gatherings we host in the UK, so that people who come to the door will know what to expect and not be disappointed.

2) How to stop everyone laying claim to the same two or three words while applying completely different meanings to them. Because without 2 we're surely never going to achieve 1).

We are not re-siting deck-chairs. We're down in the bilges fighting to the death over who owns the bloomin bung!

Tom

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 04:14 AM

I can't say it actually bothers me Jim, if I DON'T hear a tradtional folksong all night. As long as people are singing in folk clubs - the possibility of folksong is there.

I'm sorry if our analyses of the great decline are different. But we were both there. I was chatting with Derek Brimstone only last week - and he must have played nearly every folk club in England. More than both of us. His memory of the actual events pretty much mirrors mine.

I'm glad you've found an oasis of tradtional music to retire to. To some of us folksong is a long established artform in England and it renews itself without consciously aping the archaic and esoteric forms of the past.

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Acorn4
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 04:10 AM

Actually, I would have thought that the majority of people think John Denver is country music.

Tom,

We used to put up Paul Metsers many years ago when he was touring and he eventually seemed to reach the same watershed as yourself. What finished Paul off was touring with a band, having just scraped by as a solo artist, so the situation is not just a recent one.

Like yourself, Paul produced what was, in my opinion, his best work just before the decision. People still do his songs, and he does seem to be making tentative steps towards a comeback.

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 03:43 AM

Tom,
As usual, from my point of view, and I know from past experience, not from yours, no confrontation intended, frustration maybe (hand on heart Joe).
I believe that the success or failure of the music depends on being clear of what you are trying to present and presenting it in an honest and open manner and to the best of your ability so that it can be appreciated and enjoyed at its best (and stand or fall) for what it is. This does not preclude experimentation, adaptation, changes, whatever... in the music, as long as it is recognised that, whatever its origins, once those changes go beyond a certain point and it loses its function, it ceases to be folk. Experimentation can only work if the end result doesn't choke the life out of the mother plant, as I believe has happened here. If you want evidence of this, look through the threads and seek out those who find an evening of folk music 'boring', or whinge about 'long ballads' (we even had an organiser of a 'respected' club proposing a three-minute moratorium on the length of songs performed, thereby wiping out virtually all of the ballad repertoire).   
"John Denver is understood as folk music by millions of people,"
You continue to say this (I think the figure you gave last time about the misconception of what is and is not 'folk' was in the region of 6o million) without presenting any evidence. If a minuscule fraction of this figure knew, thought they knew, or even cared what folk music was we'd be in a different ball game. The fact is that all but a tiny handful of people even have an opinion on the matter, that tiny handful continues to shrink at an alarming rate, and will go on doing so until we get our act together.
The decision of what is presented as folk music (or any music) has to be made by those who, by calling their music 'folk' take responsibility for it.
Far from Al's point that it was the 'purists' who did the damage (they were always far too much of a tiny minority to have an effect on anything) it was at the point when it became possible to spend the night in a folk club without hearing a folk song that the mass-exodus took place; the final crunch came with the abandoning of standards - I really was there at the time it happened, took some part in the debate and finally went off and worked on another aspect of the music. Over the time I have been involved I witnessed the rise, the limited success and the decline of the music - just as, more recently, here in Ireland I have seen the rise and what I believe to be its long-term establishment as an art form.
I have no intention of attempting to dominate this thread, but I felt I couldn't let it pass without restating my opinion on what has gone wrong in the clubs - to me, all this is just resiting the deck-chairs, not finding the leak and blocking it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Acorn4
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 03:23 AM

Ian,

I am a Suswegian by birth and some of my earliest folk memories are of a club in Preston Circus where the excellent Miles Wooten used to perform. Good to hear things are still going well down there.

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 02:29 AM

Sooz
Sack the malingerers and move closer to Grimsby!
Nah!
I was only joking.

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: GUEST,Ian Fyvie
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 10:06 PM

Back to the original question......

Cellarfolk (Brighton) is a singaround in a function room, which books very occasional guests drawn from peolple who have visited us on a normal singers' night. It works well, with 15 to 30 people coming along on the normal sinaround nights.   

Yes guest nights are variable. Because regulars have seen guests as ordinary circle singers first then there have been no disasters - but one very good performer who we see quite often at a normal singaround was very disappointed that quite a few regulars were missing on his guest night.

A bit of history - Cellarfolk was started in May 2007 to address problems we'd encounted in our twice weekly bar singarounds (Brighton Singers' Club). While we had an excellent public bar for our Sundays, it relied upon folk club etiquet to be honoured by all those in the bar to allow for a good night (and many of the nights over the years were amazing!). However in later years we found an increasing number of people/singers coming along who were happy to talk over other singers (their right in a Public Bar) and generally only listened to their chums - so the atmosphere was destroyed.

We reluctantly abandoned Public Bar sessions and shifted Brighton Singers' Club to the Function Room of a nearby pub (Crown and Anchor, Preston Village) where the evenings have developed into a very different (but far more satisfying) singaround with chat (average about 9 people both for Wednesdays and Sundays).

AND we have the lovely Cellarfolk sessions as a bonus from the experiment to solve the problems of the long running Brighton Singers Club.

Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 08:10 PM

One of the things I remember from the early days of UK Folk Clubs was
the wonderful variety of music that was performed and enjoyed in the clubs that were NOT trying SO hard to be either Purist Trad or Purist Contemporary . The clubs that always seemed to have Bums On Seats had Traddies , Songwriters , Music Hall . Jug Bands , and even Hard Line Blues , both as Guests AND Floor Singers .

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Acorn4
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 08:04 PM

Crap music of ANY genre is a put off to most people .

a questionable statement?

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 07:57 PM

' I, for one, don't believe in going backwards and look forward to what comes out of the current Folk revival'

don't understand that bit Dave. And the three axes. supposing theres four axes or six. I mean lets face it, there are any number of determinants in this equation

'according to Al, it was traditional purism that killed them'

no Pip I never said that. I said it was people willing to bore the audience shitless. there were contemporary bores as well as traditional ones. The contemporary ones were just stupid though. whereas the the traddies had a certain sadistic relish - I detected a twinkle in the eye every time I was driven from the room.
Aha! another ignoramus who couldn't withstand my dazzling insight into folksong! I bet he watches coronation street and has millions of kids and lives in a council house.

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 07:32 PM

Thanks, Joe. I am sure we all can but if it looks a little hostile at times don't worry too much - It could well be the boisterous Brits at it again. We don't usualy mean anything by the banter. Well, most of us don't;-)

Crap performances of an undefined music might be a good starting point.

I agree, Jim, as you know. Crap music of ANY genre is a put off to most people but we realy do need to steer away from the 'what is folk' argument. I know there is the 1950-odd definition but we have had Bob Dylan, Steeleye Span and Ziggy Marley with the Chieftans since then. Like Tom says, to most people, Folk IS John Denver. No-one would ever dream of attending a rock concert without knowing something about he band(s), they were going to see. Is it classic ballad rock? Metal? Indie? Goth? Why should it be assumed that Folk is a narrower river than other music genres?

Out of interest, I heard Dougie MacLeans 'Caledonia' again tonight. A contemporary song that defies the 50-whatever definition. But I would put money on the fact that if 100 people listened to it for the first time more than 90 would call it Folk!

I don't like the idea of genres and sub-genres but if it makes people happy to categorise into traditional or contemporary Folk and then still further into traditional by country, region and town or contemporary by Dylanesque, in the traditional idiom or just plain wrist slashers then please feel free to do so. It won't help Folk clubs but it will help people to know what to expect! Or will it?

If anyone feels that Folk clubs will thrive again by going back to what was happening in the 60s then they are more than welcome to open a club in that style. I, for one, don't believe in going backwards and look forward to what comes out of the current Folk revival:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 07:08 PM

I like the three axes, but I don't think there can be as much variation on the 'repertoire' axis as on the other two. I don't think the word 'folk' can ever be reclaimed for the 1956 definition, but I don't think that's the most important part of what Jim Carroll's saying (apologies to Jim if he thinks otherwise!) The question to my mind is whether the 1956 definition describes anything, and if so whether it's something valuable. Obviously(?) I answer Yes to both of those.

That leads to the question of whether this valuable thing has anything to do with the wellbeing of folk clubs, and if so what. According to Jim, moving away from traditional repertoires killed the folk clubs; according to Al, it was traditional purism that killed them. To me what matters is that 'folk' venues and events are the only places where you'll hear traditional music; you may hear a lot of other stuff there, but none of it is stuff that you can't hear anywhere else. That to me suggest that something's going wrong if the clubs aren't providing a home for traditional music, however well they're doing. A flourishing folk club is one that puts on traditional music and packs 'em in.

That's the view from my perch on the X axis, anyway.

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Acorn4
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 06:07 PM

I've just looked at the local diary in the Leicester area - for tonight there are six clubs we could possibly go to -that is within a drive of about 40 minutes or less. There are also other clubs which run on ,say for example the second Monday of the month. they are a good mixture of the three types quoted. I think all of those clubs would be packed if everyone who ever came went on the same week.

Five of these are clubs we've visited and would definitely like to support but we can't do them all, and would like to investigate no 6 somewhen. With the occasional Monday when other things crop up, it means that we can probably only get to each one every six weeks. Sundays is a simlar crowded schedule.

In the Midlands it would seem that we're a bit thinly spread, but it doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of people who go to clubs.

There's also the question of "non-folk" people in venues -we've got a range of bits and pieces we do that branch over into country and pop, so that we can adapt (our duo name is "On the Fence"!) although folk song is probably our favourite genre. We were playing in a pub singaround once when the punters became really enthusiastic about the music being played which was mainly folkish - Julia commented afterwards:-

"You don't expect normal people to like folk music do you?"

I suppose she was right in the sense that you do start to feel a bit conscious that you might be "inflicting" your tastes on other people.

Interesting experience at Bedworth this weekend. There was a new landlord in the White Swan who had agreed to host parts of the festival. On Saturday night the singaround went over time, and the canned music was unceremoniously switched on (in the middle of someone's song) -obviously the landlord, who was quite new, didn't want to lose his normal Saturday night trade for the sake of one week. We obviously feared bad vibes!

On Sunday, the singaround/session was supposed to finish at 4.30 but we decided to carry on to see what would happen, quite prepared for the fact we might be booted out. By about 5.30 the landlord was leaning on the bar, listening and laughing out loud at some of the "craic" going on, really getting "on board" with it all, and at the end, saying he was definitely going to be involved in the festival next year "if I'm still here!"

It's a symbiotic relationship between performers, punters , organisers, audience and landlords which has to gel to work. We can't exist in a bubble!

Perhaps "can normal people like folk music could be a thread title!"

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 05:52 PM

This could be an interesting discussion. See if you can carry it on without animostity.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 05:20 PM

Jim that's exactly what I'm doing. Trying to find out. But in a non-confrontational way, so that people will feel able to voice opinions even when they disagree with me. So that we might all slowly grope towards some mutual understanding, assuming we're willing to listen and learn. I respect your pedigree, I admire your forthrightness and can see much merit in your argument. But I also respect those who feel that folk music is all about participation, that repertoire is not the chief criterion, and/or believe that no-one should be denied the joy of making music - even if they're not very good at it. And I also respect the Z axis too - those who are passionate about new musical directions and new ideas flowering from old roots. I won't ask you to change your beliefs, but might I cordially request that you express them without recourse to insult? We really do have a job to do here, and a lot of people are taking this very difficult challenge seriously. I'm not going to restart our very interesting former debate about larders and tins and grills and jazz and all of that. But you must understand that words always and only mean what people choose them to mean, not what academics define (that follows common usage, it does not drive it), and we have to start from where we are at the end of 2008, not where we were in 1956. John Denver is understood as folk music by millions of people, and they have every right to that understanding. If we want to make progress we have to start with an acceptance of that status quo, not rail against the moon and frighten the horses. I do hope you can take that on board and maybe come up with some practical ideas on how to work through this problem. Thanks

Tom

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 04:26 PM

"You even could call these the X,Y and Z axes of folk if you wanted"

Nice one, Tom. If you wait long enough you'll probably find someone offering to grind them...

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 03:43 PM

"Groonty Club"
Then I'd expect to hear 'grootny' music Tom - if that's what it says on the tin.
If you haven't learned from the fact that you've lost over three quarters of your clubs and audiences and why the 'folk' scene is living a hand-to-mouth existence - I suggest you try to find out. Crap performances of an undefined music might be a good starting point.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 03:36 PM

"You even could call these the X,Y and Z axes"

But Tom, whose going to grind them???

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 03:30 PM

OK - I'll rephrase before someone tells me I'm talking bollocks. One is dead and one does not exist. Same difference:-P

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 03:25 PM

You takin' lessons from Jim Royal, Jim:-)

Lets not get into either Folk Club Manners OR what is folk music!

D.

(BTW - JD and BMcG must be folky - they are both dead:-D )

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 03:00 PM

Oh dear. Here we go again. Jim - just forget that they're talking about something called a 'folk club.' Pretend it's called a Groonty Club. See? No problem! T

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 02:57 PM

Thanks for those answers chaps and chapesses.

I guess the big issue re quality is that the benchmark is not universal - and what one group of people think is 'very good' might be considered 'very dire' by others, specially newcomers who have not had their ears trained properly yet. (Though some will love it from first hearing, of course).

Certainly folk music can be strong meat to those with a sensitive palette. And as others have said, it's not just abut people being in tune or in time (or not), because by some folk criteria these are less important than other totally different qualities such as story-communication, provenance or personal growth.

Maybe we could say that the things that go on in folk clubs these days can be defined by a number of different and at time conflicting philosophies - with perhaps three that are key; participation, repertoire and style. You even could call these the X,Y and Z axes of folk if you wanted, and then every individual, and to a certain extent every club, could be plotted onto a 3D graph according to how important they rate each of these philosophies.

Acorn 4 mentioned the 'Manners threat' (love the Freudian typo, Acorn!) and though it became impossible for me to contribute to that one I did read it with a great deal of interest. We saw adherents to each of those three philosophies in that thread and their commitment was compelling. I found myself agreeing passionately with people who were in irredeemable conflict with eachother!

Certainly I feel there's room for everything as long as there's a live and let live approach - and clear labelling.

In the past I've suggested that the chief challenge facing folk clubs (in fact the whole folk movement) is not one of quality or promotion or conservation or originality - it's merely about branding. Or to use a less contentious word, language.

If there were universally understood and different, non-confusable terms for Dave's 1 2 and 3 - (and, ideally, terms for the main sub-sets of 3 too - booked/vetted supports against floor singers, for example) most of the problem would disappear. (Hey - maybe we should use XYZ co-ordinates in all publicity to warn people where we stand)!!

But as long as we use the words 'folk club' to describe such massively different types of event, the endless skirmishes of our civil war will continue, and we'll go on confusing the pants off the rest of society.

It wouldn't solve the problem of regulars/members expecting guests to be poor, but maybe if we fixed the big problem of branding we'd have a LOT more clubs and more people could find the right level and outlet for their talents.

Who knows

Tom

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 02:54 PM

"This is drifting rather ominously towards the "Folk Club Manners" threat at times,"
"Folk club" has to be about what you put on and how well it's done - otherwise , what's the point?
John Denver and Bobby McGee my arse!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Acorn4
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 02:32 PM

A club we go to quite a lot is a good example of a "type 2" - the whole thing depends on the dedication of one organiser withou whom it would have folded long ago, who is now about £3,000 personally in debt as a result of booking good guests - just one bad night can set you well back!

Both organisers and artists are stuggling as it is at the moment.

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Northerner
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 02:14 PM

Well yes, the audience is probably bigger for "names". Depends on what you call a name probably.

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 02:13 PM

Mmmmm - Lots of food for thought there people - Thanks! I am pretty sure that John has the right idea. Lets see a balance that helps see music and entertainment restored. I would also like to see, as in Banjimans club, more 'out there', in the bars and pubs but to perfectly honest I wouldn't dare bring one or two of our 'folk performers' out of their nice little club cocoons. Not entirely on a 'quality' basis either. I know some no more than copmpetant musicians who are extemely entertaining (seeing two tonight - I know you won't take any offence Ron or Mike :-) ) and some technical brilliant ones who could bore the pants off a statue of Queen Vic!

Al is right as well. Let us see all sorts of music. There is no reason, other than snobbery as far as I can see, why John Denver and Bobby McGee should not have their place in folk clubs alongside Patrick Spens and Shirley Collins. (See what I did there? Clever, eh? Eh? :-P ) As long as they are all performed in a manner that people enjoy there should be no reason why clubs should not come out of the closet and go into the front room. Maybe it is the kick start pubs have been waiting for? Oh - Like the hot buffet as well, Al:-)

Anyway, where was I...

Oh aye. I hope that at Swinton we can see the format continue with some minor tweaks. Maybe move to an 'open mike' in the pub on occasions? Maybe we can subsidise artists, so we don't see the like of Tom 'fall by the wayside'. (Maybe I should post the same question on Yahoo - Whatcher think, Tom?)

I still don't know what to think but there are some ideas spreading like a fungus under this old gnome hat... Hmmmmm. Keep 'em coming!

BTW - I am after a career change. Anyone know who would pay me to do this sort of stuff and come up with ideas? ;-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Mrs Scarecrow
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 02:09 PM

May be I'm lucky inthe quality (mostly) of our local sing arounds.
To Answer Tom I would not want to see the end of concerts as I know many people who are not like me and who would not dream of getting up and performing but who love folk music. I do see that there is a difficulty for middle range performers who may not be well known enough out side their own areas to attract as audience. What the answer to this is I really dont know.

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 01:34 PM

Hi Northerner, And do those two clubs reliably get full houses on guest nights, or is it like elsewhere, and only reliably full for Names? Thanks, Tom

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Northerner
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 01:30 PM

I go to two folk clubs regularly. They both have the same format - they alternate a singaround night (tiny entry fee) with a guest night (modest entry fee). There are raffles every week. On guest nights the guest performs for about an hour and a a half and is supported by floor singers. There isn't enough time for all of our local floor singers to perform on guest nights but on singaround nights generally all of the performers can get a spot. There are occasional evenings when not everybody can perform on a singaround night - we can get twenty or so regulars up performing. A lot of talent round here (Tees Valley). Luckily there are other clubs in the area. Some of the smaller clubs are mainly singaround clubs with only occasional guests. It is a very active area - new clubs start up. The Young 'Uns started club in Hartlepool not so long ago and I've started a storytelling circle this autumn. As a storyteller and singer I go to folk clubs plus the storytelling circle plus open mics at literature events (the literature events have given me a warm welcome).

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Chris Green
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 12:03 PM

Twick Folk - it already has!

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Acorn4
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 11:41 AM

This is drifting rather ominously towards the "Folk Club Manners" threat at times, and I agree if folk club manners are sometimes a bit lacking "Open Mike Manners" will perhaps eventually stretch to 2,000 posts and rival "War and Peace".

Congratulations to JK on the rescue job on "Ponchartain" - I think "Ride On" might be beyond redemption,though!

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: evansakes
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 11:32 AM

"We have a policy of not turning anyone away who wants to sing"

They should carve those words on the gravestone when that club finally dies.

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 11:09 AM

it seems that when everybody in the room is having a go, the balance shifts towards the 'dire' end of the spectrum

I think it depends who's in the room. I've heard a lot more GEFF and practising-in-public at my local 'open stage'* club than at any of the singarounds I've been to. This may sound silly, but I think there's something about getting up in front of people that attracts performers whose enthusiasm outstrips their talent - it's your fifteen minutes of localised fame.

*Not an 'open mike' club as no PA.

Subject: RE: What sort of folk club is yours?
From: Chris Green
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 11:06 AM

It took me so long to write that four posts happened while I was doing it!