BS: Judicial murder in China

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 05:31 PM

You'd have to ask a moderator Falco.

I suspect you'll find that no-one is censored.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 04:24 PM

Are you the only one here allowed a viewpoint Lox ?????

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 03:49 PM

Unfair?

Is Falco suggesting I be compassionate?

Now I have read everything!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 03:11 PM

Sorry to hear of your experience Lox. I think your remarks about akenaton are unfair. He has expressed an opinon, one I share.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 02:58 PM

For the record folks, I have had personal experience of the damage drugs do.

My ex partner fell victim to addiction and her health and behaviour deteriorated to such a level that she was no longer allowed to have my daughter to stay overnight.

I then had to move town to protect myself and my daughter from her dealers who thought my daughter was their business.

My home address has been kept confidential by the court since then.

I fully understand the risks, the fear and the anger and know exactly what damage is done by drugs to the addict and to their environment.


None of this has any bearing on whether or not a mentally ill man should have been made to die.


If Myra Hindley isn't a good enough example for you, then lets talk about Ian Huntley instead.

Since he was put in prison he has tried to commit suicide, which shows that the pressure has well and truly got to him.

The horror of his crimes has got to him.

The fear of how he is seen has got to him.

Good.

If he was dead he would know none of this.



Ake,

To put it very simply, you are way out of your depth.

Your way of thinking is so inflexible, and you are so incapable of learning and evolving, hindered in my view by your own fear and loathing of "others", that openly engaging in discussion of the type exhibited in this thread by everyone apart from you and Falco is simply beyond your imagination.


I note from your last 3 posts that you have given up trying to compete, but instead have resorted to smarmy sycophancy with whoever you think you can enlist as an ally in your fight against the "liberal fascists" and their repression of your freedom of speech.


Hating people will only give you a headache.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 12:32 PM

People who attack their own society should be made to pay a price. The overriding consideration of a government should be to protect the vast majority of the population who prefer to live by rules which insured that what ever else might go wrong in your life, crime was not on the list. It is too easy these days to blame someone of something for how your life has turned out.

And they also have the old "Mental health" card to play. The person here in question was never treated for a mental health problem. He saw his G.P. several times since returning to the UK from Poland and America, but never once for a mental health related problem. This attempted smoke screen was thought up by his family, none of which are health professionals. So please stop referring to him as suffering from mental illness, unless you can produce proof ?

Now I see it is possible for an inmate to have a family life at Her Majesties pleasure. A prisoner rights organisation has called for more Conjugal rights for prisoners. "Allowing prisoners access to a partner could drastically reduce their tensions". Great, not only do they enjoy a hotel lifestyle, we have to allow them a weekly rattle at some tart as well.

We have to break this ultimately destructive choice of life style which fast becoming a reasonable option for many. Only those who respect the rule of law should be credited with a full set of human rights.

If a drug dealer murders your child, I know your opinion will alter.I hope to God it's something you never have to experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 11:50 AM

Those who have commented on Myra Hindley, have the Hindley/Brady relationship wrong. He was merely a rather pathetic fantasist until she came into his life: he shared his fantasies with his new mistress, Hindley — whereupon she persuaded him that fantasies were no use if not enacted, persuaded him to leave it to her to lure the children back to where he was, and then helped him render them as helpless as need be for him to do the actual killing, which she shamed him into doing to avoid losing face in her eyes. So tho it is technically true to say that he physically committed all the actual murders, he would neither have attempted it other than in fantasy without her persuasion [which took the form of a mixture of scorn & encouragement], nor have had the children physically present for the purpose. The Home Secretaries who forbade her release knew what they were about. She was the trigger for the commission of the murders; he was merely her instrument.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 11:09 AM

"What a bunch of wriggling arseholes you are......leave Shirod alone, he's worth twenty of you lot.....Ake"

You don't really need to defend me, Ake, I'm perfectly capable of defending myself, but thanks anyway! Actually, I think that, in between the traditional 'hang 'em and flog 'em' merchants and the 'knee-jerk' liberals, there's some good, thought-provoking stuff on here (the contributions from Lox and theleveller for example) which I'm still trying to digest and to compare and contrast with my own thoughts.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Smedley
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 10:58 AM

Hindley was also a victim of misogyny - in the popular imagination her crimes outdid Brady's because she was a woman and thus '''''even worse'''' than him. And it has usually been other women I have heard advancing that view.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 10:24 AM

Ha Ha...The Hindley case was a perfect example of "liberal" hypocrisy, she never actually murdered anyone and was very obviously under the influence of evil personified by Brady.

Her sentence was continually extended, not for additional punishment, but simply because successive "liberal" home secretaries were to cowardly to release her.

"Liberal" rights are conditional on many things....in this case it was the politicians sense of self preservation.

What a bunch of wriggling arseholes you are......leave Shirod alone, he's worth twenty of you lot.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 09:15 AM

Leveller,

"this is something that Falco is totally against, we are talking about basic human rights that form the basis of a civilised society and of democrarcy"

Actually it's Ake who has repeatedly shown scorn towards the "liberal" idea that human rights come first.

Shim,

I don't expect remorse, I do agree with someone having their freedom to live in normal society removed, and to make it clear to them that the reason they are in prison is because of their actions.

In the case of those who feel emotion, they may reflect on their crime and lie awake at night horified by their own evil.

In the case of those who have no emotional capacity, it is enough that they spend their lives associating their actions with their imprisonment and knowing that they are responsible for their own lack of freedom.

Myra Hindley for example was reported in the last few years of her life as having requested that she live out her remaining short time in freedom, having rehabilitated herself and learned her lesson.

When she was imprisoned, she was remorseless.

She spent her life in prison reflecting and spent her last days craving a day of freedom.

This was denied.

Eventually, she died grieving for the lives she destroyed - including her own.

If she had been hanged, she would have died with no care for her own life, let alone those of the children she and Ian Brady murdered.

I feel justice was better served in her case by a life sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: theleveller
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 08:18 AM

Shimrod, I think the answer to your question is a fairly simple one which would, of course, go totally over the heads of those like Falco and Co who espouse totalitarian values.

Firstly, it is not just the death of one person we are talking about but the whole priciple of having a death penalty, which accounts for the deaths of many thousands of people each year. To edit my previous quote from Tordorv: "we may therefore question whether states that continue to make wide use of the death penalty can really be considered part of the democratic world."

Secondly, and here again, this is something that Falco is totally against, we are talking about basic human rights that form the basis of a civilised society and of democrarcy as enshrined in so many priciples from Thomas Paine through to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Totalitarianism relies on the subjugation of individual human rights, as anyone who has studied the history of the 20th century will know. One of the basic human rights is to justice - a fair trial and not to be subjected to inhumane punishment. If we violate the human rights of an invididual, we are setting a precedent to violating the human rights of groups and then the rights of the entire populace. For an excellent summary of human rights today, you may like to read A C Grayling's Liberty in the Age of Terror. Falco, of course, will continue to rely on his own ignorance and stupidity.

I agree that there are many problems in the world which need to be addressed but that doesn't mean we should ignore tha basic ones on which a civilised and democratic society is based.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 08:15 AM

"I want them to die old and heartbroken in prison, wishing they had behaved differently."

Lox,

I take this to mean that you want them to experience retribution and to show remorse?

I can't actually remember the sentences that the Baby P killers received but other child murderers have received 'limited' sentences and have been protected from the 'mob' after their release.

In addition there are people in our midst (clinical psycopaths) who are incapable of experiencing pity or showing remorse - what do we do about them?

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 07:30 AM

"And having written those things I realise that I am talking about my emotional responses to them ('revulsion', 'anger' etc.). But, at the end of the day, reactions to crime and injustice inevitably involve emotion. Perhaps the (hypocritical) authorities, in attempting to be 'objective' and 'unemotional' can sometimes end up doing more harm than good(?)"

I too have emotional responses to crimes.

Baby P's torture and murder would be a classic example.

I looked at the photo's, and read about about what had happened and the sheer cruelty of the adults who inflicted the injuries he died from.

My first feeling was a paternal instinct to pick that little boy up and hold him safely out of reach of those monsters.

Of course that simply wasn't an option.

My second emotion was utter hatred for the adults involved.

I felt that if I ever saw these people out in public I would be unlikely to restrain myself from inflicting the worst torture imaginable on them.

I felt crimson in tooth and claw.

But in reality, I am glad that I never have seen them and that they have gone to prison for their crimes.

I believe their actions to have been those of savages.

In taking that line I make a distinction between myself and a savage.

To be consistent I must define what the differences are between savages and non-savages.

In my mind a non-savage is able to restrain themselves from indulging their lust for blood.

A non-savage considers more sophisticated alternatives.

They work out what they wish to achieve, why they wish to achieve it and how they will go about achieving it.

Baby P's killers should be seperated from society and kept away from kids for their whole lives as they are a danger.

That is something everyone agrees on, death or no death.

By not killing them, we define our society as being better than that.

We encourage our society to see that killing is never justified.


A parallel worth considering is that of whether to arm the police.

In the UK, we don't arm the police and the number of gun crimes is very low.

The flow of guns is well controlled and there are less shoot outs on our streets with the result that less innocent bystanders get caught in the crossfire.

Guns are not a significant part of our society when you compare us to the USA, south africa or other countries where there is an ethos of "each man may defend himself".

I believe that the same principle applies in the case of the death penalty.

If the government sanctions a view that killing is justified retribution, then citizens will hold the same view.


Besides, I want the killers of Baby P to stay alive so that they can reflect everyday for the rest of their lives just how much they are hated and reviled and so they have nightmares everynight about the crimes they have committed.


I want them to die old and heartbroken in prison, wishing they had behaved differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 05:44 AM

Most countries have a significant number of mentally ill and intellectually disabled people in prison. That's a crime and a tragedy. I don't think we're much further advanced than China and the US, we still imprison them but just don't execute them.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 05:34 AM

China requires that guests who arrive from a another country must respect their traditions, their symbols, their culture and most of all their laws. Shaikh didn't, so he was dealt with. Now he's boxed up and ready for dispatch.I do hope the British taxpayer doesn't have to pay for the return of the stiff. End of story.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 05:02 AM

Lox,

You raise lots of interesting questions. I confess to being a bit overwhelmed - and don't really know where to start!

The dilemma that I find myself in, when thinking about the death penalty, revolves around such things as:

- Physical revulsion at what is actually involved in putting someone to death.

- A persistent feeling that, for certain monstrous crimes (e.g. genocide), the death penalty may actually be justified.

- Anger at various justice systems which, far too often, tend to punish the innocent while trying too hard to show mercy to the guilty.

- Vague annoyance at the influential western liberal mindset which has a tendency to blame an individual's crimes on 'Society' thus depriving the individual of responsibility for his/her crimes.

- Failure to recognise that there are 'wolves out there' who are a danger to us all and that we have no choice but to defend ourselves against them. At the end of the day 'nature is red-in-tooth-and-claw' and we should acknowledge this fact and try to come to terms with it - rather than attempt to deny it.

- Anger at the hypocrisy of those in power who, on the one hand, tell us that the death penalty is wrong, whilst, at the same time, dealing out death and destruction in other parts of the world when it suits their purposes to do so.

And having written those things I realise that I am talking about my emotional responses to them ('revulsion', 'anger' etc.). But, at the end of the day, reactions to crime and injustice inevitably involve emotion. Perhaps the (hypocritical) authorities, in attempting to be 'objective' and 'unemotional' can sometimes end up doing more harm than good(?)

Going back to the unfortunate individual, recently executed in China, I think that in a 'just' world he should have been deported back to Britain and served out a sentence in a British prison. But this person failed to recognise the risks that he was running by dealing in drugs in China - he failed to recognise or acknowledge that in some parts of the world 'nature' is still very much 'red-in-tooth-and-claw'!

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 08:29 PM

Shim,


You've referred to religious opposition to the death penalty.

And you've given a pretty wide overview of the ethical difficulties in determining where a course of action is or isn't justified.

The problem with your argument as I see it is that if we see the human race as being a mere blip on the fabric of spacetime and derive a fatalistic approach to ethics from such a view, then we have to apply that approach across the board.

In which case we become a jumped up self important species by merit of believing that our existence is of any meaningful significance at all.

Applying such an approach would mean having to say that anything goes, so murderers, dealers, tyrants, child abusers etc would be lumped into the same boat as the rest of us in a free for all of ethics free survival.

Fair enough. This view is easily supported and understood.


However, for some reason, most human beings, religious or otherwise, have a sense of ethics and of what constitutes acceptable and unacceptable behaviour.

Humans have, over thousands of years, developed ideas around which the patterns of our lives now revolve.

Examples of these ideas are: money (this is nothing more than an abstract concept that only exists because we agree it does), property, freedom, liberty, equality, democracy etc etc etc.

Our whle lives are built on ideas and nothing more.

Slowly we have evolved to seek out a deeper and deeper understanding of our existence, and somewhere along the way we have, pretty much universally, developed an idea of the importance of valuing human life and human consciousness.

Somewhere along the way we have also developed ideas around consistency and double standards.

As a species we have found that life can be an infinitely more qualitative experience when we cooperate with each other.

Hence, the creation of domestic laws on one hand and international conventions on the other.

We are very sophisticated animals.

Should we as a species condone the killing of other humans or not.

If we do condone it then where do we draw the line and why?


The death penalty is meant to serve as a deterrent and to punish criminals permanently and finally.

It is meant to protect ordinary innocent people from the predations of those who would otherwise destroy them.


In fact, it does not act as an effective deterrent and sometimes innocent ordinary people lose their lives as a result of judicial errors.

Sometimes, in some countries, people lose their lives for very spurious 'crimes'.


So what are we to do? Carry on evolving or just say "fuck it - it makes no difference in thescheme of things" and do exactly what we like without a conscience.

Why do we have a conscience?

What purpose does it serve?

And why (this is more to the thread at large) should people get so upset and aggressive when Leveller begins a thread suggesting that we reflect for a moment on the execution of Akhmal Shaikh?


Finally, (pay careful attention to the wording) the only reason that this universe is important to you is that you are here to experience it.

Our whole existence is subjective no matter how we look at it.

Even when we accuse humanity of being jumped up and self aggrandizing we are subjective.

So in claiming to speak for the rest of the universe we stand guilty of greater arrogance.

We would be more honest speaking for ourselves.


So what do we think and what do we want?

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 07:33 PM

Well, what would happen to the military/indusrial complex if it couldn't sell it's wares??? I mean, wouldn't that be bad fir the economy, 'er somethin'???

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 07:24 PM

Are you by any chance a mind reader Shim?
Another fine post...much too considered and thoughtful to be of much use to those who would judge you.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 07:13 PM

Lox,

That's a good question. If I answer it though I'm damned in your eyes and damned in the eyes of others - I'm not actually prepared to be judged over this - so I'll keep my specific opinions on this particular case to myself. On balance though I am prepared to say that I would prefer to live in a world in which no-one is executed and it is not necessary to execute anyone.

But we don't live in such a world - we live in one in which bad, selfish, greedy people are a threat to us all (and being non-religious I'm not convinced that everyone is redeemable). Furthermore we also seem to live in a world in which monstrous crimes are excused and petty ones are punished; it's certainly not a just world. I also suspect that this taboo against executing people in the west certainly has a moral and ethical basis but, in addition, its also got something to do with the exercise of power. Our rulers once gave themselves the power of life and death over everyone - now they've decided just to kill foreigners. Mind you I reckon that if someone was seen to represent any sort of serious threat to their power, they'd probably wind up dead.

Religious people insist that all human life is sacred and, again on balance, this is a good thing and keeps the majority of us safe most of the time. But in the grand scheme of things we have to bear in mind that we are animals and other animal species die every day and the Universe probably doesn't even notice. If the biosphere becomes sufficiently degraded and the population becomes too great vast numbers of humans will die, whether their lives are 'sacred' or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 04:09 PM

Shim.

I agree that those things happen and that they are horrific and inexcusable.

Does the fact that these things happen make the muder of Shaikh right?

No.

They are all wrong.

There are many threads on those subjects.

This thread is about a specific execution.

In your opinion, was that execution justified or not?

You don't seem to have expressed a view either way.


I ask because Ake and Falco seem to think that you believe it was right.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 03:24 PM

I will second that.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 03:20 PM

Well said Shim!

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 01:48 PM

What has always puzzled me about the, so-called, 'western liberal democracies', who have abolished the death penalty, is that they are quite happy to manufacture and export the the most horrendous weapons of destruction such as land mines, phosphorus bombs, grenades, automatic firearms of various types, helicopter gunships, fighter-bombers etc., etc., which are manufactured for just one purpose: to kill people - often poor, weak and defenceless people, and to send young men to suffer horrible deaths in foreign wars. They also appear to be happy to degrade and over-exploit the biosphere, destroy the farms and farming methods of the world's poor people through the imposition of profitable (for the few) 'cash crops' and turn a blind eye to the obvious problems caused by over-population. All of which promise to lead, in the not too distant future, to the painful and protracted deaths of BILLIONS. This makes the death of some pathetic drug smuggler pale into insignificance. To my mind the main problem with the human race is that it has absolutely no sense of proportion!!

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Smedley
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 12:41 PM

Yes, Leveller, my eyes 'pricked up' when I saw the term 'degenerate' - you have to be *very* deeply immersed in far-right idiocy before that term tumbles out so easily.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 12:36 PM

What is interesting is that Falco not only espouses the values of the totalitarian state but has now slipped so easily into its terminology where "degenerate" is the word used most frequently used to describe anyone who dissents from the official line. Methinks Mr Falco has inadvertently disclosed his true colours.

"Most Loathsome Scrote of 2010 award" LOL! I think the statuette should depict an empty scrotum sac - that would be a true depiction of Mr Falco in so many ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Smedley
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 12:21 PM

Falco, congratulations. The year is not yet a day old and you have already secured the Most Loathsome Scrote of 2010 award. I hope you keep it in a prominent place.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 12:18 PM

Quite the opposite, Shaikah is cold tonight without a pulse. How could I possibly be upset, In fact the more I think about it, I am ecstatic !

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 10:21 AM

BTW, Ake, ol' son... A good read is Harry G. Levine and Craig Reinanman's "Alcohol prohibition and drug prohibition. Lessons from alcohol policy for drug policy" (2004, Amsterdam, CEDRO) which really delves into the subject...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 08:31 AM

Drug abuse and prohibition go hand in hand... That is what studies show... That is the reality... And that is why we are all quilty of promoting drug abuse...

And, for the record, the Earth is not flat...

(Shockin', Boberdz, just shocking!!!)

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 07:58 AM

Don't you just love the rabid rantings of a reactionary - especially when they are so ineffectual! I can practically see Falco foaming at the mouth.

The alternative to individual human rights, as anyone with a modicum of intelligence knows, is totalitarianism. The utter unthinking drivel that Falco spouts shows the sort of state he would prefer. Unfortunately for you, Falco, you'd be unlikely to get the job of Fuhrer, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 07:34 AM

Drug abuse destroys lives, FACT. It wrecks families and devastates communities, FACT. The human cost has been enormous, FACT. The financial consequences incalculable, FACT. The drain on our social services, justice system and NHS is immense, FACT.

So called 'Human rights' legislation has effectively nullified the British criminal Justice system. It is yet another great British institution that has been devastated by liberal policy and 'EU' meddling.

Human rights are being used as a smoke screen by those who see it as means of avoiding the consequence of their actions. It is about time people stood up to this misuse of this right, that has been tolerated for too long.


One of the most frustrating things is when a drug dealer who have shown not one ounce of compassion for their fellow human beings start trying to have the shield of human rights drawn around them. They use this legislation as protection. Have you any idea how offensive this is to the family of a victim ? No I doubt you would.

The two degenerates above are quick to talk about the human rights of drug smugglers, but are happy to take away the human rights of others.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 06:02 AM

Well put, Lox. It's reassuring to know that, unless the unbelievable happens and we get a BNP government, the death penalty will never be reinstated in this country. What we of a liberal disposition, who find this legalised slaughter utterly disgusting, need to do is back up those organisations that are fighting to abolish it in the barbaric countries where it still exists. Probably the hardest addiction to overcomme is the addiction of goverments to killing people.

Maybe that would be a good new year resolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Lox
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 09:08 PM

Alcoholism is a more destructive force in Scotland than Heroin.

Just one of many many sources.

"One thing is certain, we must not content ourselves by protecting the civil rights of addicts while they die in ever increasing numbers. I think I may have said that before in another context!"

Ake has no idea what "civil rights" means.


He thinks that protecting peoples civil rights means letting them die.


He thinks that taking peoples civil rights away means caring for them.


Its a bit like saying that 1 + 1 = Thursday


Heroin addicts need to be treated and rehabilitated.


There is NO connection between this and their civil rights.




In fact, it is because we value the rights of every human being equally that we show concern for addicts.


However, we digress (again) as this still has no bearing on whether or not Junkies and Dealers should be murdered.


"Heroin addiction is not like cannabis smoking....it is not "recreational" it becomes a nessecity to maintain a minimal standard of life.
It can lead to the depths of degradation and is gnawing at the fabric of society in this part of Scotland."


Gosh - with a synopsis like that I don't think Bobert needed to bother with any credentials.

Heroin is an addiction.

It does not maintain any standard of life.

It creates a physical dependency.

This dependancy is a chemical one.

Heroin, alcohol, amphetamine and cocaine are examples of chemically addictive drugs.

Addiction is a diagnosable and treatable mental illness.


Gambling and sex are not addictions, they are compulsions.

It is important to be clear about what words actually mean.


But while we are talking about how addiictions ruin lives, let us be clear that Alcohol is addictive and it kills and it destroys lives, families and whole communities in ways that heroin only imitates.


So - do we jail pub and off licence owners or do we execute them?


This question is just too hard for Ake to answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,Falco
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 08:39 PM

Mr.Don(Wyziwyg)T. I'm sorry, I think you are confusing me with someone else. I have no conflicts or problems with you.

Irrespective of your opinion on those who sell or supply drugs. it appears you have either confused me with someone else or you are deliberately attempting to create a distortion to discredit me. If the latter is the case, that is despicable.

One can disapprove of behaviour and express views on those engaging in it. I make no excuse I hate drug supplying killers.

I oppose hate of a nation, race or creed. So tell me how or why do you link me to a party such as the Bnp. To make such a slur against me is simply pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 07:00 PM

Well, Ake... The cost of drug rehab is nothin' compared to the the alternative which is crime, lawyers, court time and then incarceration... Incarceration, BTW robs the family of a bread winner... Yeah, so does addiction but if the addict is probated to a place like Rubicon and lets say that he or she is one of the 25% who stay clean for 2 years then there is alot more benefit (on all levels) than going the criminal route...

That's what I mean by pragnatism v. emotionalism... Yeah, I can get emotionally protective of my pragamtic positions (lol)...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 06:51 PM

Bobert...I don't think there's a straighter guy on Mudcat than yourself...I don't need no "verification".

I didn't mean to imply that you were not clued up on "H"addiction, but looking back at what I've written, thats what it looks like....sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 06:27 PM

Fumbler,

You are a troll...

How much time did you spend on Google??? I'll tell you how much time... Not one friggin' minute... All, you did was get on yer little hobby horse and balst away with your proclamations...

Now either go do the research 'er I'll ignore you like you were a radiation pit...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 06:24 PM

Ake,

There is nothing you can tell me about heroin addiction that I don't allready know about...

I worked at Rubicon North, a halfway house for drug addicts in Richmond, Va., for close to 4 years... Work???... Okay, I all but lived there... I could write a book on the experiences I gained in those 4 years... Believe me, I know more than you could ever imagine about the pains of addiction... I took pictures of everyone that came thru that facility and have a scrap book of hundreds of people I worked with... I know the ones that died... I know the ones that were killed... I know the ones that went away for long sentences... One of my closest friends, Jim "Sugar Bear" Coleman, and who also was one of my "clients" (residents) is doing life... James??? Dead The Lip... Dead... Greasy Easley???... Dead... Benji???... Dead...

I mean, I could go one and on...

I don't come to my opinions on this subject lightly... I come with a heavy heart... No, it ain't easy to see folks you care about die, get messed up, go off to prison... But we are all guilty here... We need to get the heck outta legislating morality when the only victim is the user... It ain't helpin'... Every danged study says so... Yet we still drag out the war stories and we stil continue doing the wrong things in the face of what is the right thing...

If you have any other questions regarding my 4 years at Rubicon, including the names of other folks who died, or the names of folks who will tell ya that, "Yeah, the skinny white guy did the time there" then PM me... Be glad (no, not glad) to share those with you...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 06:15 PM

The laws in China are harsh and the death penalty was issued in this case and carried out. Though sometimes commuted for financial crimes they are rarely commuted for drug smuggling, rape and murder.

After living 10 years in China I would be very wary about breaking their laws. The legal system is quite at odds with what we are used to in the west. Legal representatives have a hard time gaining access to clients and getting sight of evidence. Even in civil cases I have seen cases in the press where the lawyers are threatened with breaching state secrets when presenting evidence at trials.

As of now we have little idea of what was stated in court in this case. The only reports were from state controlled media which would be skewed to say what they want them to say.

The laws are harsh but in a country of 1.5 billion people the government in Beijing is of the view that in order to rule they have to issue harsh punishments and they do.

While living in Shanghai I met the son of a convicted smuggler who was over visiting his father in Qing Pu prison just outside Shanghai. His crime was to be caught with cannabis and he received a 15 year sentence with no chance of remission or repatriation. That is the Chinese way.

When you next visit Singapore, Thailand or Malaysia remember they too carry out capital punishments in the case of drugs smuggling.

Gordon Brown made his comments, but it is at odds that he commented on this mans mental state and asked for clemency but failed to comment or do anything in the case of John McKinnon the UFO obsessed man who is to be handed over to the US despite there being a clear case of mental illness. Perhaps he did not want to upset BO.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: fumblefingers
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 06:14 PM

Bobert - You are apparently ignorant of Texas law and the Governor's limitations where clemency is concerned. Since you're the one making the accusations, I have no obligation to Google anything to prop up your argument--if that's what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 06:13 PM

""Don(Wyziwyg)T. Would you care to explain yourself ? I am not a member of Facebook.""


No, of course you aren't.....not much!.

It is of course a total co-incidence that the last time I was being harrassed and targetted by infantile supporters of nasty Nick, I had a friend request from you which I had to block and report as abusive, since it pointed to a profile using my photo and representing me as a BNP supporter.

Checking back today, I find another fake profile purporting to be me, which has, in its photo album, my Facebook profile photo, photoshopped to replace "Hope not Hate" and "Folk against Fascism" Logos with BNP crap. It also has a profile message which is word for word your sick, gloating, satisfaction at the result.

While I agree with the notion that anyone who commits a crime is rightly subject to punishment according to the laws of the country where the crime was committed, and for that reason there is no mileage in slagging off the Chinese, I nevertheless deplore your sick minded reaction.

Pointless to discuss anything with you, but I did want other members to know the kind of human (and I use the word in its loosest sense) being they are dealing with, behind that Guest Falco tag.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 06:02 PM

Well, fumbler, all ya' gotta do is google up "Capital Punishment, Texas" and read until yer heart's delight... There's enough stuff there to keep you busy until next New Years eve...

Yeah, I've read about alot of the cases... I once had a file on about 20 of them... Then one day I was going thru some files and thought to myself "Self, every time you go thru that file you are depressed and pissed off for several days" so I threw it out...

Like I said, plenty of stuff out there on Texas and capital punishment... Enjoy... BTW, I hope you don't like Bush because if you do then that's gonna come to an end as you find out just how many people were put to death under him and how he couldn't have cared less...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 05:57 PM

Pragmatism v Emotionalism

From what I know of you Bobert, I'm pretty certain that you would be one of the most emotional when faced with some of the things I have witnessed over the past few years.

Heroin addiction is not like cannabis smoking....it is not "recreational" it becomes a nessecity to maintain a minimal standard of life.
It can lead to the depths of degradation and is gnawing at the fabric of society in this part of Scotland.

If we are unwilling to expend the huge amount of money and medical expertise required to defeat drug addiction, then we have no option but to takle the problem by punishing those who are themselves it's victims.

One thing is certain, we must not content ourselves by protecting the civil rights of addicts while they die in ever increasing numbers. I think I may have said that before in another context!

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: fumblefingers
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 05:47 PM

Bobert: "We allow people in Texas to be rounded up, have confessions beat out of them, appoint dumb attorneys who sleep in court while supposedly defending them and then, ahhhhhh, murder them..."

Would you tell me if you are referring to a specific case, or Texas justice in general? Names and dates if you please.

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 05:43 PM

More Government Stats.


here

"There were 897 deaths involving heroin or morphine in 2008. This is an 8 per cent rise compared to 2007 and the highest number recorded since 2001. The number of deaths involving methadone also increased from 325 in 2007 to 378 in 2008, a rise of 16 per cent. This is the highest number of deaths involving methadone since 1998, when 398 deaths were recorded. Deaths involving cocaine rose to 235 in 2008, continuing a long-term upward trend since 1993.

Deaths mentioning paracetamol and its compounds increased slightly in 2008 to 260 from the lowest recorded number in 2007 (242 deaths), following a long-term downward trend since 1997. The biggest impact on this decline was from deaths involving co-proxamol (paracetamol and dextropropoxyphene formulation) where the number decreased by one third between 2007 and 2008, from 72 to 48 deaths."


So if the dealers are killers and Tyrants, then so are the pubs, not to mention the Pharma companies selling paracetamol etc.

It should also be noted in the above stats that over 30% of men and 50% of women were deliberately trying to kill themselves by overdosing on whatever they could get.


Lets see if the King of double standards believes that people who sell dangerous chemicals should all be prosecuted or not ...

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 05:35 PM

Thank you falco, the same good wishes to you and yours.

We have more in common than you know..

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 05:31 PM

Has anyone posted the number of deaths due to alcohol ...

Click here

... that's before factoring in deaths due to drunk driving and other drunken misadventure ...

And what about Alcohol fuelled violence - including domestic violence and rape?

Should we put brewers in Jail or execute them?

Subject: RE: BS: Judicial murder in China
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 04:58 PM

Ya' see, ake, ol' son... It's this way... Prohibition has a tendency to create problems... I mean, there was a reason for the 21st Ammendment to the US Constitution... That reason is that the US discovered that with prohibition comes more headaches than without it...

Let me give you a little example... We have this island out in the middle ot the Chesepeake Bay called Tangier Isalnd and it is dry, dry, dry... No alcohol at all unless folks sneak it in... The problem arises when the islanders get off the islnad 'cause they get rip-roarin' drunk, fight, get arrested, etc... Tangier is a microcosm of counties or states that think they are doing this morally correct thing by legislating morality... The problem is that it doesn't work... Take Amsterdam... Fewer people percentage-wise smoke pot there than in the United States...

See what I mean??? I'm sure that it is devastating to lose someone or see someone ruin their life form the use of drugs but when you look around the evidence points to an interesting corralation between prohibition and problems....

Hmmmmmmm??? So, yeah, you can point to all those deaths as the evils of the drugs and I point back and say, "Why don't they have this level of problems where things aren't illegal???"

Pragmatism v. Emotionalism...

B~