BS: Syria: the new nightmare?

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 11:53 AM

I have no doubt if there was no oil and no pipeline routes in the middle east there would likely be no wars either. But the politicians will never tell the true story.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 11:29 AM

TRUMP on SYRIA

TRUMP on SAUDI ARABIA

SEVEN FASCIST REGIMES ENTHUSIASTICALLY SUPPORTED by AMERICA
Where America goes, Britain obediently follows.
RIGHT WING BRITAIN

Take your pick
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: bobad
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 11:27 AM

There Are Reportedly No Hospitals Left in Aleppo

Russian and Syrian strikes on rebel-held eastern Aleppo have reportedly taken out the last hospitals that serve the 250,000 civilians who still live in the city.

The Atlantic

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 10:51 AM

"Where are the sanctions on Saudi? They do not exist. Why do we have sanctions on Syria"
Go and ask the Government - I have no idea how their double standards work.
They have known about the Syrian torture chambers and "disappearing" of many thousands of their opponents for nearly twenty years, yet they remained lose friends with the Assad family - like the Saudis, they considered both a 'safe pair of hands'
Action against Assad was only taken when the massacre of the Syrian people became impossible to ignore, and then it was only half-arsed.
Apparently we need Saudi to keep our SUVs on the road - money wins out over humanity every time.
Cheap Propaganda
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/08/harrowing-accounts-of-torture-inhuman-conditions-and-mass-deaths-in-syrias-prisons/
MORE "CHEAP PROPAGANDA"
Is Syria another of your crusades, alongside of Trump?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 10:37 AM

Where are the sanctions on Saudi? They do not exist. Why do we have sanctions on Syria? Because of cheap propaganda that the gullible believe without question. As yet there has been no proof offered that Assad had used chemical weapons, but the US has admitted to using depleted uranium( a true weapon of mass destruction) in Syria while participating in a totally illegal war. Also many of the terrorists fighting there are both trained and supported by the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 10:16 AM

"How the western world can condemn Assad while condoning Saudi bombing the Yemen escapes me"
Who on earth does?
Cameron went to pay homage at the funeral of the Saudi Patriarch while a journalist was being administered 1000 lashes for speaking out of turn - who can condone that - except the British right?
Shortly after Arabs began their protest over the social conditions and lack of freedom in several countries, that same Cameron launched a massive arms fair so sell arms to despots like the Saudi rulers (who used them in Yemen) and right-wing regimes like Bahrain and Israel - who can condone that - except the British right?
Where were you people when we were condemning the sale of chemicals possibly being used for stockpiling weapons by the Assad regime.
We have condemned every aspect of this war, including Britain's appeasing of the regime, while you turds stayed silent - or, in a couple of cases, actually supported the sale of equipment to repress the protestors.
Don't come this shit Bobad - appeasement of terrorism is your bag - not ours
That goes for both of you, with your latest support for the new fascist on the block - Trump
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 09:50 AM

How the western world can condemn Assad while condoning Saudi bombing the Yemen escapes me. Syria had a stable secular government and Assad was re elected with a majority in a widely supervised election.
Saudi by contrast is a one religion state with medieval, barbaric practises where women cannot even drive cars.
The true reason for destabilisation in Syria is to run a pipeline to take Quatari gas to europe. There is a lot of American smoke blowing about good and bad terrorists.
Putin's take is that a good terrorist no longer scavenges oxygen. Having seen what a fine job was done in Iraq and Libya, Assad invited Russia to come to his aid. Legally Russia and her allies are the only legitimate entities there. Everyone else is invading a sovereign nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: bobad
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 09:46 AM

We have noticed your outright condemnation of the massive slaughter of civilians carried out by the "good guys" as they target markets, hospitals, schools and homes.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 08:53 AM

By the way - sing the fall of Communism, Russia is one of the good guys - it is part of "The Free world" nowadays and a very fine example if it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 08:51 AM

"Notice there has not been one single peep from the resident phony social justice warriors"
A total lie Bobad - there has been outright condemnation of what has happened in Syria from day one - with the exception of your tiny handful of friends who opposed the sending in of troops when he could have been stopped and their full support of selling him ammunition and riot control equipment.
Your crocodile tears for the situation in Aleppo is put into context with your open support for the destruction of schools, hospitals and community shelters by your Israeli friends - particularly in 2015.
We condemn all such acts - you are happy to support one side and use Syria against those who oppose all State terrorism.
Syrian and Israeli fascism are two sides of the same coin.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: bobad
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 08:27 AM

VIDEO of a children's hospital in Aleppo being bombed. It is one of many hospitals that have been deliberately targeted by Assad and the Russians. Notice there has not been one single peep from the resident phony social justice warriors. Any guess as to why that is? You can be sure that if the Israelis were doing this there would be multiple threads with thousands of posts condemning them with vehemence and bold, multi-coloured, upper case invective.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: bobad
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 04:16 PM

There already is another war - stopping it would make a lot of people not dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 03:53 PM

999, beware of propaganda for the pretext of a U.S. invasion of Syria. It hasn't yet been established that Assad is using sarin. He might be capable of that then again he has everything to lose if he does.

Remember that Agent Orange was a chemical weapon used in Vietnam.

Meanwhile the U.S. is applying gunboat diplomacy off the shores of Syria by
deploying troops, battle ships and weapons.

How about another war? Would that make everyone happy?

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 10:21 AM

Bobad, what is it with the love affair US administrations have with ruthless dictators?

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 05:23 PM

Without Western intervention, Libya would still be a relatively stable country.....as would Iraq.

The extremists now have the weapons and the power.....and what do they see as the greatest threat to their vision?

Western "Democracy"!

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 05:18 PM

We imagine that we can change these countries into "democratic" consumer societies in the hope of enslaving their people in the money trap......but these folks don't care about money any more than they care about life......checkmate!

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: bobad
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 05:11 PM

The "cauldron of hate and bloodshed in the Middle East and North Africa" is not in need of facilitation - it manages very well by itself, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 05:02 PM

Lest I be misunderstood, the cauldron of hate and bloodshed which we have facilitated in the Middle East and North Africa will in all probability hasten the end of Western "culture" we know it.

So the "liberal" conservatives are actually revolutionaries....the biter, bit!

"The people is a beast of muddy brain."

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: bobad
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 04:59 PM

What is it with the love affair armchair socialists have with ruthless dictators?

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 04:51 PM

Bobad was one of the main cheerleaders here for the disgraceful shables in Libya.

To further the cause of "democracy and freedom" how fuckin' simplistic can this forum get?
Now that the disgraceful shables is patently obvious, people like bobad and Charley move on to the next "liberal" target......I dont think they even realise the damage they and their ilk do to the wonderful egalitarian, democratic and free Western way of life(irony).

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 04:40 PM

Thanks, Peter. I certainly hope so. They may be the only two 'powers' that could get through to Assad. Threats from all over won't work.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 04:32 PM

999, Russia would not be contemplating military intervention. It just happens to be a friend Assad might listen to. Maybe China too.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 08:50 PM

I'm with the Capt'n on this one...

We backed the Taliban against the Russians and look how that turned out...

What we have in the Middle East is a revolution... The folks who want a bigger say are like America's working poor... Educated, motivated, in tune with what's going down and not getting opportunities...

This is a global problem... Too many upper 1%ers glamming onto too much wealth... And too few folks with a lot to contribute workin' for nothin'...

Syria??? Egypt??? Libya??? The USA??? You pick...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 08:43 PM

Thank you, Peter. However, I don't understand why Putin should be allowed to deal with Syria anymore than you understand why various other countries should not be allowed to deal with Syria. I suppose that's a sticking point.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: kendall
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 08:32 PM

What, and just mind our own business? Unheard of.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 08:27 PM

Sorry Keith, I did post the wrong one, or at least not the one I thought I'd posted, though reading it will have done you no harm.

Some contributor to an online debate included at that link goes some way to answering 999's question to me:

If I were a betting man, I'd wager this entire 'crisis' would disappear if the US and the other nations of the world demanded that Israel match Iran signature-for-signature on every nuclear control protocol and every inspection regime. Why hasn't this been done already? Why hasn't the issue of Israel's undeclared nuclear weapons been brought up each and every day in the UN and other international forums?

But my short answer to 999 is that I would have stayed out of Libya and Iraq and I would leave Syria for Putin to deal with, or not, as he thinks appropriate. I had no problem with Gadaffi, didn't like Saddam's indulgence of his mentally unhinged son Uday and don't care for what I've seen of the younger Assad. None of which gives me any entitlement to interfere, any more than I would advocate interfering with the obscene regime of (say) Lukashenko in Belarus.

We live in an unhappy world and have no magic wand to make it better.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: bobad
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 04:17 PM

"As anonymous sources within the U.S. state department leak information Syria may be loading warheads with chemical weapons, sources in France have begun indicating that a Western strike against the Assad regime could begin very soon.

Although the chemical weapon agents had not yet been loaded into planes, the State Department source, quoted by NBC News, said that if they are "there's little the outside world can do to stop it."

French weekly Le Point is reporting that France is preparing a military response similar to that used against Libya. There is no ground assault or sustained air campaign planned, the magazine says, but several smaller raids that would target chemical weapon sites and take away President Bashar al-Assad's air superiority.

The timing of Syria's moves on their chemical weapons come as the situation is "accelerating" on the ground, with Assad's regime losing to the rebels."

More

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 01:15 PM

So, uh, Peter, your method to solve the problem would be what exactly?

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 01:05 PM

You must have posted the wrong one Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 01:04 PM

I am quite aware of those arguments that Iran's bomb is nothing to worry about and they are not making one anyway.

You must have finished up at the wrong link Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 11:44 AM

You can't arrest someone for what they might do.
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 11:37 AM

Peter, thank you for that gratuitously insulting Keith, I expect I'm wasting my time, as in your simplistic mind no argument could ever have two sides, but nevertheless I suggest you try a little bit of reading:

Like all of us I do have a position on some issues, but it is the likes of Jim and Don who get so cross when an opposing view is presented.
I am quite aware of those arguments that Iran's bomb is nothing to worry about and they are not making one anyway.
I just do not happen to believe that.

Last time I discussed this on Mudcat, Jim Carroll was quite frenzied in demanding that NATO troops should intervene in Syria against Assad's forces.
Any change Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: bobad
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 10:50 AM

The IAEA contradicts Waltz re. weaponization in Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: pdq
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 10:44 AM

"******'s major crime has been to defend his regime; a regime that was harsh and brutal by western standards but one which did for some years continue the stability achieved by his father."

Sounds like you're talking about the Shah of Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 10:15 AM

; it has I'm not sure that 999's ranting hysteria is the path to peace and tranquility in this troubled world.

As Little Hawk said so cogently, Bashar's major crime has been to defend his regime; a regime that was harsh and brutal by western standards but one which did for some years continue the stability achieved by his father.

His father, it might be argued, was far more brutal. Indeed Hafez al-Assad was responsible for the region's biggest massacre in modern times, one that by most estimates comfortably eclipsed the one achieved by Saddam at Halabja. Yet it was Assad who forced through equal rights for women, in the face of fanatical Sunni opposition. He even overturned a decree barring women from the presidency, though the Muslim Brotherhood together with other Islamic factions eventually succeeded in rescinding that initiative.

The west never for a moment considered intervening on behalf of the many thousands of victims at Hama, any more than they did on behalf of the victims at Halabja. But of course many years later Halabja was eagerly cited, as a justification for the mission creep whereby regime change became a legitimate objective in the Iraq war.

In all likelihood, any military intervention in Syria would be as catastrophic as that in Iraq, which has resulted in a hundred times more deaths than those inflicted by Saddam.

I fear that western attitudes, whereby a corrupt tyrant like Mobutu is to be funded and cherished while the Saddams and Bashars are demonised - and which can lead ultimately to 999-type hysterics - are dictated by little more than what is fashionable at the time.

Keith, I expect I'm wasting my time, as in your simplistic mind no argument could ever have two sides, but nevertheless I suggest you try a little bit of reading:

Iran and the bomb: a fabricated threat

The Waltz article itself, under discussion at that link, cannot be reached without going through a pay wall, as far as I can see.(It's on a website I access through someone else's account.} That's a pity: it has caused a little stir in academia and even caught the attention of a few politicians.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 06:55 AM

Atomic weapons, biological weapons, chemical weapons: none of them are good for humanity. Now we know our ABCs, won't you sing along with me!

####################

"Iran has confirmed for the first time that forces from its revolutionary guards corps (IRGC) are in Syria helping Bashar al-Assad's government crush rebels, and warned that it would get involved militarily if its Arab ally came under attack."

That was reported in mid September of this year by http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/16/iran-middleeast .

As the relative worth of Iran's rial drops, so too does its economic support of Syria's money. Taking three billion dollars a year as a low figure, and with Iran's oil going to China and Russia at bargain-basement prices, Iran will not be able to continue its fiscal support of Syria's pound at the present level, a level that has been dropping for months. If Assad does implement a "What the hell, I have nothing to lose so I'll start taking people with me" line, we could be watching the beginning of a chemical/nuclear war, and whether that particular genie could be put back in the bottle is anyone's guess.

Weapons (missiles) that Israeli intelligence assumed were headed to Sudan from Iran may not be destined for end-use by Gaza, but rather end-use by Syria. Patriot missiles are going to Turkey from other NATO partners and Syria decries that.

IMO, the lower right-hand corner in all this is a horribly complex balancing act with all too real consequences for millions of people. If you believe in a higher power, pray to it now. If you don't believe in a higher power, pray anyway, just in case you're wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 04:09 AM

Should we eliminate all nuclear weapons from humanity?
I think so. They're only good for killing people.
That's immoral.
=(:-( 0)

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 03:45 AM

Assad says not on Syrians, but he also claims the rebels are foreign, and he might think hitting Israel would gain him support.

I find it extraordinary that intelligent people look forward with hope to Iran becoming a nuclear power.
Not just Israel, but every Arab country has reason to fear it and arm themselves accordingly.
Happy days.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 01:26 AM

Nuke the bastards.
=(:-( D)

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 12:55 AM

All the obfuscatory stuff aside, there is a major problem with regard to the use of chemical weapons. Countries that don't have chemical weapons but do have nuclear weapons will respond to a WMD attack with their own WMD attack. The political posturing is impressive, but too many people here are missing that point. This is not some he said/she said scenario. It is a clear and present danger. The usuals have brought Israel into the argument when in fact it has nothing to do with Israel. It has everything to do with an Iran/Syria agreement dating back to 2006. Assad and his military will face consequences for their actions if they use the gas on their own people, something conveyed to Assad's government by many concerned countries and both NATO and the UN. There are two threads about to drop off the board wherein you can blame Israel for everything or anything that grinds your nuts; this isn't one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: michaelr
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 10:43 PM

I thought this thread was about Syria?

Yahoo news headline tonight: Syria has loaded chemical weapons into bombs, awaits final order from Assad.

Fuck.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: bobad
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 07:15 PM

It will never have a nuclear capability, or at least not for long.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 07:10 PM

Not until it has an effective nuclear capability. Which for the sake of stability in the region I hope will be soon. ((A neat change of ground though. bobad.)

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: bobad
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 06:09 PM

Iran is a self proclaimed existential threat to Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 06:00 PM

Let me rephrase, on the off-chance that even a smart-ass like bobad might understand the hypocrisy. What gives signatory countries that ignore the NPT and another that has never signed it the right to lecture Iran on its NPT obligations?

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 12:42 PM

What Peter said.........we have lost the plot regarding foreign policy. We now have govt by mass media...the xfactor generation....god help us!

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 12:27 PM

"the NPT non-nuclear-weapon states agree never to acquire nuclear weapons and the NPT nuclear-weapon states in exchange agree to share the benefits of peaceful nuclear technology "

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 12:24 PM

"This puts Israel, as usual, in a totally unique situation in the world. The world rules that apply to everyone else apparently do not apply to Israel. They have not been penalized or criticized for building many nukes outside of the NNPP. They have not been sanctioned for doing it. No one else is in such a position. They are given carte blanche to do what no one else can do...without being ostracized for it.

Strange, isn't it?
"


LH, you are ignorant of the facts.

Israel has NOT signed the treaty, therefore is not bound by it- UNLIKE IRAQ

IF Israel HAD signed the treaty, they would have been one of the Nuclear powers like the US and USSR- They had developed their weapons BEFORE the treaty was even proposed. That alone puts them in a different class than Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: pdq
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 08:49 PM

"...In any case, Iran has NOT been denied the right to generate hydroelectric power with nuclear power plants." ~ Little Hawk

I find that line pretty dam funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Syria: the new nightmare?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 08:23 PM

North Korea is no longer in the NNPP. They withdrew about a decade ago.