BS: Man's name or woman's name?

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 02:10 PM

Funny that no-one has mentioned the case of the distinguished novelist Evelyn Waugh. His first wife was also called Evelyn. They were known to their circle as He-Evelyn & She-Evelyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 May 05 - 01:07 PM

I believe that "Bloke" is quite a common first name in South Africa. I imagine that is one which probabaly won't be appropriated by women.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST,Mr Red (no prizes for guessing there)
Date: 21 May 05 - 05:14 AM

Mr Red's alter ego often gets this gender confusion (no comments please) , and rarely takes offence but it sorts-out those that do not know him, and are just trying it on.

(you would have to click http://cresby.com for explanation - or maybe not if you are observant)

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 21 May 05 - 04:15 AM

Last week I was browsing in a bookshop & saw a section for Women Writers.

One book was by Gay Taliese (or however it's spelled).

I couldn't find a section for Men Writers, so left the book where I found it.

I wonder why they didn't have a section for Men Writers.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST,Sandra
Date: 20 May 05 - 01:08 PM

Just some people I have known

Male named Kermit - called Kim

Female named Stephanie - called Steve (of course)

Male named Sanford - called Sandy

Male named Demetrius - called Meech

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: robomatic
Date: 20 May 05 - 07:36 AM

I read somewhere of a "Positive Wasserman Jones". One explanation was that a malicious med student convinced the poor mother that it was the name of a great physician, more recently I ran into this:

""When the girl was born, her mother got a look at her own hospital chart and thought that was what she was supposed to name the baby," he said. "So the poor girl was stuck with the name. The other kids called her Pozzie."

That shows positive thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 May 05 - 07:17 AM

Donuts?

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 20 May 05 - 06:41 AM

I used to work in an office in London with a man called Barnett Barnett and in the same office at the same time was Andy Beverley Barnett.

As for my own name; the only version I have heard being used for a woman is Robin/ Robyn. Rab, Rob, Rabbie, Robbie and Robert all seem to be exclusively male.

My brothers name is Duncan and I am not aware of a variant of that for women

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: dianavan
Date: 19 May 05 - 11:43 PM

This is Canada and Michel and Michelle are common names. My brother, however, was always put into girls P.E. classes because his name was Jan. He didn't mind though. He always showed up for the first day of class and caused a minor riot. He always made the best of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 May 05 - 10:09 PM

Just in case Giok is serious (there aren't many 'Closes' in US geography) Glenn Close is a very good American actress.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: SharonA
Date: 19 May 05 - 07:32 PM

So, this thread lives again! Seems I neglected to mention, back in 2003, that my mother's name was Marion and that she and my father named my brother Leigh... which may not sound so strange to our UK 'Catters but is quite unusual here in the US.

As for the original issue of the business-email greeting, at the time I had thought it too "chummy" -- too informal-sounding -- to address the unknown party by her first name only, at least in my first email to her. Not knowing whether to say "Dear Mr. Lastname" or "Dear Ms. Lastname", I used the person's full name even though it sounded overly rigid to do so. These days the rules about formality in business-email greetings seem to have relaxed somewhat... perhaps for the very reasons we've seen illustrated in this thread: that what may be assumed to be a male's or a female's name in one country may not be so in another country (or even within the same country!).

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 05 - 05:32 PM

I once worked in an office where we had a male customer with the middle name of Mary. There was a big red message across the file "This is NOT a mistake".

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 May 05 - 03:00 PM

Glenn Close----- Man, woman, or address?
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 19 May 05 - 02:21 PM

I haven't read the entire thread, just some of the first and last posts, so pardon me if I'm repeating anything...

A couple of thoughts:

The woman's name "Jeanne" is pronounced in the French manner here in Louisiana ~ "Zhaahn" is a phonetic approximation ~ but in the rest of the US, it is almost always read as though pronounced "Jean"/"Gene."

I once had a female coworker named Trevor. This name is uncommon enough herebaouts that some folks would be introduced and not react at all, but most of us who had any familarily at all with the name Trevor usually recognized it as a man's name and thus reacted with some kind of "double-take.".

McGrath listed a number of "men's names taken over by women" including Evelyn, Shirly, Beverly, and others. I would observe that, in the US, all of these names are almost exclusively used for females, and people tend to ridicule the very idea of these names being used for (British) males.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 19 May 05 - 01:38 PM

Helen said:

You've reminded me of some female surnames: Brewster, Webster, & Baxter (bakster) i.e. , brew-sister, web (or weave) sister and bake-sister, compared with Brewer, Webber or Weaver, and Baker.

Helen, you posted that in 2003. Are you still around?

I never heard that. Can you give some sort of documentation or authentication for that -ster equals -sister bit?

My favorite etymological sourcebook, under teamster, brewster, and several others, merely refers to "a -ster variant of" whatever the verb form is. One exception that might go along with your statement above, and that's "seamstress". Under "sew", going through "Old English seam has derivative seamestre, whence Middle English seamster, whence English seamstress, var. sempstress; seamestre and seamster are feminine; -ess has been added to render the sex unmistakable."

That's the only place I find that kind of connection of a -ster form to feminine, and no direct reference to "sister".

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 19 May 05 - 12:59 PM

And McGrath of Harlow, in another post, said:

Perhaps it'd be a bit more of a challenge to find some name that has never been used for a woman.

Algernon?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 19 May 05 - 12:39 PM

McGrath of Harlow said (inter alia):

I imagine in Canada there must be a lot of confusion about people called Jean.

Some acquaintances of mine, from here in Indiana, were living in Quebec some years ago, and had a girl baby there. They filled in whatever official form it was with the given name "Jean". "No," said the authorities, "you can't name a girl that. That's a male name!" They were forced to spell it Jeanne.

On another subject, we have my father-in-law, born maybe 1880, whose name was Courtney Oronto Moore. These days one runs into a lot of female Courtneys. Probably not many Orontos, though, of either sex.

And one more (which I've related in other threads, but it's too good not to repeat):

At the beginning of my 9th grade year, which I guess would have been 1943, there was a new girl in school, who showed up, having gone to school elsewhere previously. I say "showed up" because I don't think any formal paperwork transfer had previously come for her.

So the teacher passed around a sign-in sheet among the class, with the instructions to "Put down your complete, formal name. No 'for-shorts', no nicknames."

I don't remember what her last name was, but say it was Schwartz. So she put down "Jack Schwartz". The teacher admonished her: "No, put down your REAL name! No nicknames!" The girl told her, "That's my name, Jack!" The teacher wouldn't believe her, and Jack wouldn't budge. So she was sent to the principal's office, who would surely get to the bottom of it.

The same scene ensued in the principal's office, with insistence on the "real" name and her obdurate answer of "Jack". "All right, young lady, you go home and bring your mother or father in, and we'll get the real name from them!"

Both the mother and father came in and assured the principal that my classmate's name was indeed Jack--not Jac, not Jackie, not Jacquelyn, but J-A-C-K, Jack!

Frankly, I don't envy the young lady.

I wonder whatever happened to Jack.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 19 May 05 - 12:35 PM

sorry my post was abbreviated... Dear Shelagh (last name), and from the sound of your letter Dear Shelagh would suffice because they addressed you personally and gave best their regards.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 19 May 05 - 12:29 PM

I would say it depends on the nature of the business letter. Should it require a very formal approach and you are unsure of the prefix the person prefers, the following is usually acceptable.

Dear Shelagh

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 May 05 - 12:02 PM

Leslie is often male and Lesley is often female, but in practice it varies as much as Marion/Marian.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 05 - 11:42 AM

it can be either

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 05 - 11:35 AM

Is " Leslie" a woman or man's name?

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST,The O'Meara
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 10:39 AM

Kat: No, but my sibling n' cousin group occasionally called her "Captain." Her mother didn't care for nicknames, so she named her only son Glen, figuring there's no nickname for it. For about 80 years now, he's been known as "Uncle Bud."
    I mention that because of Glenn Close.

O'Meara

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Helen
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 09:10 PM

Thanks for the info, Croí, on 'Tabhair Dom do Lámh'. I'll have to come clean and tell you that it is most likely that I simply found the lyrics on the Internet somewhere, rather than writing them in myself. I will find the thread you are referring to and copy your comments into that, if that is okay, because the others who have read that thread would also want to read your comments.

The Mudcat community is well worth another visit or six, because the folks here are very friendly and helpful, so we look forward to seeing you here again.

McGrath,

Thanks for that image! All those yobbos drinking Fosters and acting macho and tough!

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 07:16 PM

Were you and your sibs her "Marvellettes?" Sorry, I had to ask!**bg**

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: The O'Meara
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 05:52 PM

BTW, Me darlin' mother was named Marvel. (Really.)

O'Meara

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: The O'Meara
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 05:50 PM

As a kid, I figured Joyce KIlmer, the poet who wrote "Trees" was a girl. When I was in Vietnam, for Christmas my mother sent me a hard-bound book called "101 Famous Poems" with pictures of the poets. I checked to see if Joyce was a looker. "She" was a guy in a WW1 uniform. The caption read "Sgt. Joyce Kilmer, 69th New York, (Irish) killed in action near Ourcy, 1918."
You just can't tell by the name.

Knew a couple in Casper, WY, who were both named Rene. She was Rene', he was Renee. ( Went by his middle name, though.)

Just to settle it once and for all, Enya, Eithne, Aine and Anne are all derived from the ancient Celtic name "Frederick," pronounced "Shay-mus."

O'Meara

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Beardy
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 05:22 PM

It's not uncommon to use place names as first names...so Beckham's 'Brooklyn' is not a new idea... however it is still true that some places give their name to boys Clyde, Stanley, Sydney... and some to girls...Beverley, Chelsea, Jordan. Paris is now normally a girls name although it started out as the name of a Greek prince warrior...strange.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 04:28 PM

Thanks for that info, Helen, really interesting!

Ebbie, there was Darby O'Gill, who was male, from Darby O'Gill and the Little People .

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 03:13 PM

And think of those tough Australian blokes drinking Fosters...

Subject: Helen - going back to '97
From: GUEST,Croí
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 02:57 PM

hi Helen
don't know you from Adam but a friend that I dance with is getting married this June and I was telling her about 'Tabhair Dom do Lámh' for a song and I found a music file and sent it and then went on a search for the lyrics.
came, by way of the convoluted path of web-magic, to your post in '97 !! and I HAD to write because of the first line, there was confusion about the 'strum* the love'....

what it actually is, is the Gaelic form of the title.
from my hearing it at home, it was always
'Give me your hand, 'gus tabhair dom do lámh'

"'gus" being an abbreviation of "agus" - Irish for "and"
"tabhair" - pronounced 'tour' - Irish for "give"
"dom" - pronounced 'dumb' - Irish for "to me"
"do" - 'duh' - Irish for "your"
"lámh" - 'law-iv' - Irish for ..... you guessed it ! ... "hand"

I think this is why you got that 's tru m' 'gus tour dumb' and 'the love' is really 'duh law-iv'

Not sure if you could care less at this point but you know, you never can tell what little thing might always be niggling away at the old brain cells and I thought - just on the offchance - I'd write and put you out of your misery !!

When I get time, I'd like to check back here - seems an interesting
spot !!

anyway, all the best !
go gentle
Croí

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Helen
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 12:19 AM

And teamster and gangster. It's possible that teamster is a slurred together version of team-master - just my thought, I haven't researched that.

It'd be funny if these tough gangsters who wouldn't want to be seen dead with a feminine sounding name, have been known as "gang-sisters" all this time. (Poetic justice, in the humour department, in my opinion, especially relating to the woman-denigrating gangsta-rappers. Just pause here a moment while I ROTFLMAO!)

There are other names ending with "ster" but they don't necessarily come from the word "sister", e.g. Worcester, McAllister. So "cester" is an anglicised version of the Latin for "castle" (I think, from memory), and I don't know the etymology of McAllister.

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:12 PM

We have a 'Jane' family locally. And a local woman activist is named 'Sioux' Plummer.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 05:01 PM

Re 'Jane':

And don't forget 'Jane's Ships of the World', it's been around a while.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 12:18 PM

"Dear Sir or Madam, as the case may be:"

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 10:25 AM

Also gamester, huckster and punster - but I gather lobster probably has separate origin.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: delphinium
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:56 AM

A few weeks ago I was asked to meet "Annabelle" in the reception area - turned out to be a young man, who said "just call me Annie." His name was really Anibel or Ani, a name that is apparently not uncommon for Cuban males.

Also, here are 2 more examples of females using nicknames usually associated with males: the Canadian author and journalist Stevie Cameron is a woman - I wonder if this is short for Stephanie. And I know a Jeff, originally a Jennifer.

Helen, that IS interesting about the "sister" surnames, never heard that before.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Helen
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 09:29 PM

McGrath,

You've reminded me of some female surnames: Brewster, Webster, & Baxter (bakster) i.e. , brew-sister, web (or weave) sister and bake-sister, compared with Brewer, Webber or Weaver, and Baker. The female version of Spinner is not usually used as a surname but formerly as a descriptive but now as a more derogatory word, i.e. spinster. So, if a child was known more as the child of the weaver or brewer or baker, who happened to be a female, when the allocation of surnames occurred then the female word was used rather than the male.

Interesting, huh?

What about the surname "Jane"? There is an Oz tyre company called Bob Jane T-Marts. I look at that surname and wonder where it comes from. Was it also from a female name or does it have a different origin?

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 08:18 PM

Morgan is the only example I've come across of what I speculated about earlier in the thread - a case where a name that had been historically female (same name as Morrigan, the war goddess) became predominently a male name.

Probably largely thanks to Henry Morgan, the pirate - and of course it was a surname in his case.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Helen
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 07:32 PM

Peg,

Morgan is historically a female name - i.e. Morgan le Fay, from the King Arthur stories. Later it was given a Frenchified/Gallicised spelling, Morgaine.

My new kitten (female) is Morgan, because she is black and some people would consider both Morgan le Fay and black cats as evil, but I know better. (So there!    ;->   )

Hrothgar, there used to be a woman called Sioux who worked at Newcastle Regional Art Gallery (NSW, Oz) about 20 years ago.

I agree that mostly in Oz there are spelling differences for Robyn/Robin, Lesley/Leslie, etc. Sydney/Sidonie is fairly unusual as a woman's name in Oz - rather like calling her Washington or London or Cairo, because of the city Sydney, although Sidney or Sydney is common for older men, like my Uncle Sid.

I think that Cindy comes from another name, though, rather than Sydney - maybe Cynthia, Lucinda or even Cinderella?

The young woman who lives in the house behind ours called who two young daughters Page (or Paige?) & Flynn. The mother wants to fly aeroplanes, so Flynn is probably her way of tipping her hat to Flynn of the Inland, i.e. the creator of the Flying Doctor Service in Oz.


Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 05:44 PM

"...defending the Mudcat realm from those who do not share the love for it they do," Never have understood hanging around a place I don't enjoy.

Frankie? McGrath, remember: Frankie and Johnny were lovers...? I remember being confused by that when I was a kid.

I named my rescued-at-the-Humane Society elderly dog 'Darby', mostly because he's on the elegant side and also I have never known anyone/anything named Darby except, of course, Darby and Joan. But a friend tells me she thinks of 'Darby' as being a female name, that she's known two of them, both girls. (??)

My name is Elva and people have told me they think of it as a male name. In my experience, the male name is usually spelled 'Alva', not that I've met all that many of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 04:24 PM

Carroll is normally a man's name; Carol is normally a woman's name these days, but can be either.

Actually they have different origins - Carroll is an anglicised version of "Cerbhall", which in Irish means "Brave in battle"; Carol is a version of Charles, when it's a male name; but when it's a female name it probably is just a Christmassy sounding name from Christmas Carols. Though how and why it became a female name is a mystery. Except that pretty well any name that sounds pleasant is liable to be used as a woman's name sooner or later.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Bernard
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 03:47 PM

My daughter is named Deborah - I don't think that's ever been used by a male. My son is Timothy - not used by females as far as I am aware. However, my grandson is Daniel, which becomes Danielle for a girl.

Sidonie is an alternative female spelling for Sydney, and maybe Cindy is a corruption? Haven't checked, only guessing!

I understood 'Kim' was short for 'Kimberley', and the spelling is the same for either sex.

My parents' names are Leslie (father) and Evelyn (mother)...

Johnny Cash... 'A Boy Named Sue'...!!

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 03:14 PM

How about my name

Carroll ...

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Jan 03 - 05:23 PM

Huw Lindsay! Interesting how you got your name! My gran was a Crawford.

Another one I don't think I've seen mentioned is Ashley...that lovely male character in Gone With the Wind, but more commonly used as a girl's name. My male orchestra teacher's last name was also Ashley.:-)

And, this just in from the Vatican, for all of you who've been discussing the word "gender." According to Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, director of the Pontifical Council for the Family:

"Gender" no longer indicates a person's sex, "but in international debate is used to indicate radical ideological feminism," the cardinal said.

It seems the Vatican is writing a "glossary on sex terms."

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 17 Jan 03 - 04:23 PM

There was an English wrestler named Shirley Crabtree.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: gnu
Date: 17 Jan 03 - 03:59 PM

So. I guess I can still hold my head up high, knowing that my name is truly manly. (It's a joke... get it ?)

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Genie
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 03:29 PM

No, gnu, I don't specifically recall knowing a woman named "Gary," but I'm not sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 10:33 AM

Sure, wrong like saying Catherine and Kathleen are the same names.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 10:18 AM

GUEST of 11 Jan 03 - 12:23 AM and passim is not only unnecessarily abusive, s/he (s/h/it?) is also wrong.

They are two different names. But the spelling Enya was indeed a marketing decision.