BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: goatfell
Date: 09 May 11 - 11:44 AM

I agree The BNP like this system and all the people that voted NO I hope they don't complain if a BNP perosn gets voted in, because if they voted YES the BNP person would find it hard to get voted in.
So Thank you everyone that voted NO.
I Voted YES to make it harder for the BNP to get voted in

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: Brian May
Date: 08 May 11 - 04:31 PM

Totally agree with 'the lying bastards would say anything'.

Whatever the system, someone will find a way to manipulate it.

On a personal basis, I've just lost all faith in the integrity and honesty of politicians (I bet you hadn't guessed that eh?).

Sorry for the interjection, I'm off out of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 11 - 03:08 PM

Precisely.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 May 11 - 12:15 PM

Strikes me that for AV to work, you need to know what each set of lying bastards are saying.

I can't say that would particularly help, since if they're lying bastards they'd say anything. (And they do.)

But basically you just need to know the people you really don't want as your MP. Which isn't too difficult in most cases. And that applies under any system - it's just that with AV you can also vote for the one you'd like to vote for without the risk of helping the one you hate sneaking in the back door.

Which is why the BNP like the present system that we are now stuck with.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: Brian May
Date: 08 May 11 - 11:09 AM

Strikes me that for AV to work, you need to know what each set of lying bastards are saying.

Simply leave the illusion of 'freedom to vote someone in or out' alone, it's simpler this way.

However they set out, they end up being self-serving hypocrites.

There, I feel better now.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 08 May 11 - 09:14 AM

As I've seen pointed out elsewhere:

32% voting for AV = 'a resounding rejection'

35% voting for the Tories = a 5 year mandate."

Which seems to me to to sum up exactly why electoral reform is necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: Smokey.
Date: 07 May 11 - 02:58 PM

"It actually made me sad"

Me too, DC, though that's not actually a bad turnout. Nevertheless, they still failed to motivate 60% of the population who are the clear majority. Without compulsory voting, no system is democratic.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: DMcG
Date: 07 May 11 - 02:47 PM

No idea on that one, Jon. You would have thought he'd be on safer ground to allow AV and, say, AV+ and be almost certain of splitting the non-FPTP vote. Putting STV as an option would have been a risk because as it so widely used, so the 'Only 3 countries use it' horse would not have run.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 May 11 - 02:35 PM

And don't come back till you can offer something demonstrably better than the somewhat flawed but sometimes successful FPTP.

The question to me there is why Cameron would only allow the referendum to be FPTP vs AV.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 07 May 11 - 02:05 PM

I was disappointed that ~40% of people showed up to vote. It actually made me sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 May 11 - 01:50 PM

They never had a referendum the last time they significantly reformed the voting system and gave women the vote.

Reforms that extend democracy don't come about that way, then or now.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: DMcG
Date: 07 May 11 - 01:42 PM

" one person one vote" is a bulwark of democracy. AV does not offer this.

One of the worst misdirections of the NO campaign: unless you are in a marginal for all practical purposes for many people it is one person, no vote. AV is closer to the true OMOV, but even that falls short.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: MikeL2
Date: 07 May 11 - 01:35 PM

<"Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 07 May 11 - 12:26 PM

"the fairest system that brings about a fair democratic result" That of FPTP? You have to be joking. That's precisely the point. It is simply not true of FPTP.">

hi richard

I have always been brought up to believe that " one person one vote" is a bulwark of democracy. AV does not offer this.

A paraphrase of a quote by Winston Churchill maybe applies here. FPTP may not be perfect but it's better than all the others".

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 11 - 12:40 PM

the system used in Ireland is better, SINGLE TRANSFERABLE VOTE.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 11 - 12:38 PM

But now the car won't go for 30 years or more.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: Musket
Date: 07 May 11 - 12:34 PM

In the wonderful world of acronyms;

AV RIP


And don't come back till you can offer something demonstrably better than the somewhat flawed but sometimes successful FPTP.

You see, for me I accepted FPTP was not brilliant for all the reasons mentioned but failed to see that the alternative offered addressed the flaws. If you mend a car, you need the right spanners and we were handed a sewing kit.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 11 - 12:26 PM

"the fairest system that brings about a fair democratic result" That of FPTP? You have to be joking. That's precisely the point. It is simply not true of FPTP.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: MikeL2
Date: 07 May 11 - 11:13 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: McGrath of Harlow - PM
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:48 AM

<"All the time spent on planning and organising and promoting etc etc. has meant that it has not gone into what I consider far more important issues that face this Country.

The crucial word in that sentence is has. Money and time already spent on all that has already been spent - whatever the outcome of the vote makes no difference whatsoever to that.">

Hi McG

OK but maybe they will think about it more in the future

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:48 AM

All the time spent on planning and organising and promoting etc etc. has meant that it has not gone into what I consider far more important issues that face this Country.

The crucial word in that sentence is has. Money and time already spent on all that has already been spent - whatever the outcome of the vote makes no difference whatsoever to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:32 AM

Excellent result - QED!!

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 07 May 11 - 08:57 AM

I voted for my local counciller and it had nothing to do with their party. I voted for somebody who lived in the same location as me and who I felt would do their utmost for the good of our community.

I also voted YES for AV. I am not upset at all, that the majority voted not to have AV. That is democracy.

The problem appears, that if you are a staunch party supporter of Labour or Conservatives, you are blinded by their doctrine and refuse to see any good in anybody outside your own party. I call that blinkered stupidity. But never the less, that's always been the case and I doubt will ever change.

You only have to see the hatred posted on these political threads on Mudcat. It's always the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 May 11 - 08:51 AM

In my constituency, I am stuck with Angie Bray (CON) as MP, even though 62% of voters voted against her. FPTP means that voters will not get the MP they want where the opposition vote is split.

The only way forward now would be for parties to reach agreements in back rooms agreeing not to stand against each other in marginal seats.

I am sure that it is far more democratic for a few hundred people on committees to decide who people can vote for than to give voters the decision of who their second choice would be. Of course, if a voter's political party is not standing, he/she can stay at home on polling day as who needs his/her vote anyway???? (I'm being ironic here).

Under FPTP tactical voting is where a party urges it's supporters to vote for another party to stop a third from winning, whereas under A/V voters could show there support for a party, even though it is unlilley they would win, and decide who their second choice would be.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: MikeL2
Date: 07 May 11 - 08:43 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: DMcG - PM
Date: 07 May 11 - 06:38 AM

<"MikeL2: I have no problem at all with those who thought about it, detected and allowed for the spin and came to the conclusion that FPTP was the best solution. But the acid test is whether you can still vote NO (or YES) even if the kind of thing I suggested in my post of 4:02 came about and your personal choice of party was severely disadvantaged".

Hi DMG

My answer to that is that I voted "No" despite my political slant to Labour. So in fact I was voting against the possible effect on Labour's future chances - given that there is a general view that the Tories had most to gain from the "No" vote.

I voted "No" because I believe that it is the fairest system that brings about a fair democratic result.

With regard to your question about money in your other message...time is money. All the time spent on planning and organising and promoting etc etc. has meant that it has not gone into what I consider far more important issues that face this Country.

Cheers

Mikel2

Cheers

Mikel2

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 May 11 - 08:21 AM

I can't say I was specially for the AV system but I voted yes and had hoped rather more would if nothing else register dissatisfaction with first past the post and perhaps express some interest in change.

Oh well...

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: DMcG
Date: 07 May 11 - 06:38 AM

MikeL2: I have no problem at all with those who thought about it, detected and allowed for the spin and came to the conclusion that FPTP was the best solution. But the acid test is whether you can still vote NO (or YES) even if the kind of thing I suggested in my post of 4:02 came about and your personal choice of party was severely disadvantaged.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 07 May 11 - 06:23 AM

Very disappointing. It's a shame that the referendum was personalised and almost portrayed as a vote for or against Nick Clegg, rather than a matter of fairness of representation.

This. Just this.

Tbh, there was a good argument for spoil

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 May 11 - 06:22 AM

I voted no because like most other people we want the coalition to get on with the real issues and not meddle about spending money we haven't got on pipe dreams.

What is the connection between either a No vote or a Yes vote in the referendum and "spending money we haven't got on pipe dreams"?

The only cost involved in all this was the pretty minimal cost of the referendum itself, and that had already been incurred anyway, and couldn't be affected whatever the result. All that talk about voting machines being needed if AV was introduced, and so forth, was a barefaced lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: melodeonboy
Date: 07 May 11 - 05:47 AM

Very disappointing. It's a shame that the referendum was personalised and almost portrayed as a vote for or against Nick Clegg, rather than a matter of fairness of representation.

I certainly don't think it's right to be told that I have to vote either Labour or Conservative (or in some cases Liberal) in order for my vote to count. I always exercise my right to vote but don't vote for any of the major three parties.

I believe there are many people who would vote for parties other than the big three, but end up voting for one of the big three because they feel that, under the FPTP system, their vote will be wasted . This distorts voting intentions and, ultimately, democracy.

Boasting about voting "no" because it keeps the party you support in power is both irrelevant and ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: MikeL2
Date: 07 May 11 - 05:37 AM

hi

As usual there are some emotive comments here.

Without wishing to enter into this type of discussion, I just wish to report that I consider that I and most of the UK voting electorate are intelligent enough to understand the spin and lies that are always attached to these type of events - from both sides!! We don't base our judgements on this but on what we feel is right for the Country.

I voted no because like most other people we want the coalition to get on with the real issues and not meddle about spending money we haven't got on pipe dreams.

Get on with it and start to deal with the real issues I say.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 07 May 11 - 05:15 AM

Oh Hoff you old dog, you are so amusing. Clearly you don't understand the democratic process.

Really, there should be a Hoff appreciation society , so amusing. He's a great character, my fave!

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 11 - 05:08 AM

Al, you mean we haven't? Even that bitch did not sell off the health service to the highest bidder.

Amusing how the only thing of interest to Dickie Blackshirt is who won, not whether it was a just victory.

What is has again proved is the venality of our politicians and the sinister influence of the dirty digger.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 07 May 11 - 05:04 AM

Well the NO vote won the day, so end of story.

Next a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 07 May 11 - 04:47 AM

Its a sad day for England. the need for voting reform was unanswerable after Thatcher had ruled for the benefit of just her constituencies for so long.

However the reformers were taking on the might of both major parties and the Murdoch media empire. So this first major campaign was doomed. But our day will come. Pray its not too late, and we don't get another extremist asset stripping government like Thatchers in the meantime.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 11 - 04:42 AM

Quite so DMcG, which is why "yes" was the only possible vote for a person of proper principles - a point illustrated and emphasised I think by those here who support the "no" vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: DMcG
Date: 07 May 11 - 04:02 AM

I went early to the polling station and voted 'No to AV' and in so doing played my part in helping prevent 'perpetual socialism'

Or, of course, creating it. Remember we are now stuck with this system for 50 years or more, probably. And a heck of a lot can happen in that time. For example, the LibDems could implode to the point that all left-leaning votes have nowhere else to go but Labour, while UKIP (for example) chips away at the Tory vote and we end up in the position where the Conservatives are in a perpetual minority. Or a new party could arise which pushes the Tories into a natural third place, which is pretty much what happened to the Liberals when the Labour party was first formed. I am sure you will continue to insist FPTP is the right voting system in those circumstances even if gives rise to 'perpetual socialism'.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: Penny S.
Date: 07 May 11 - 03:35 AM

Here's a piece about the misrepresentation of Australian experience as mentioned above. Yes, Richie, I know it's from the Guardian, but the writer is from the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, and I wouldn't accuse them of wearing boiler suits and eating brown rice. G'Day. Penny

Aussie Rules voting

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: DMcG
Date: 07 May 11 - 03:18 AM

Oops! I meant a 12m vote, not a 12m majority. You would think someone who cared about voting could get that right! :(

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: DMcG
Date: 07 May 11 - 02:57 AM

As always with a democracy, it is difficult to decide whose views really prevailed, given that the decisions one way or another are largely taken on based on the views of a handful of vocal voices, not, for example, mass meetings where the topics can be genuinely discussed. Certainly the 'No' campaign was full of lies and misdirection. Certainly also the 'Yes' campaign did not make its case, and too much of that was also full of misdirection. The whole concept of "making MP's work harder" was open to confusion and much mischief was made from it. It is one of the few situations in which that glib managment phrase "work smarter not harder" is what AV would have brought about.

I think there is much more subtlety in the 'No' camp than a simple 12m majority suggests. There was a huge 'Not Proven' vote, a mighty "we-don't-trust-the-LibDems-and-it's-really-all-about-them" vote, a substantial "we-have-more-important-things-to-worry-about-just-now-thank-you" vote and, from the 'Yes'-ish camp "We-want-full-PR-and-this-isn't-it-so-we'll-vote-No".

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 11 - 02:51 AM

The outcome appears largely to have been due to Goebbels first principle of propaganda - if you tell a big enough lie, and tell it often enough, people will believe it.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 06 May 11 - 07:13 PM

That seems to be a very narrow minded view of the situation. The electorate made their choice.

Britain delivered a humiliating 'No' vote to Nick Clegg's dreams of tearing up the traditional electoral system. Voters rejected a change to the Alternative Vote by an emphatic 70 per cent to 30 per cent, says it all. Are you unaware the 'No' votes swept past the 12million mark ?

AV is and always will be a ludicrous system designed by a boiler suit and brown rice eating committee, not unlike those who decided some years back that socialist schooling would be better if lessons moved at the pace of the slowest pupil class room.


Well that was another dead horse that the loser Red Ed has backed!

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: Lox
Date: 06 May 11 - 07:07 PM

Why trust anything politicians say.

The tragic truth about how our government works.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 May 11 - 07:00 PM

There is no case for the No vote save the preservation of the status quo, and that is no choice for any person of principle.

There can be no doubt that the No campaign was largely based on outright lies and inventions, and to a lesser extent on conjuration and spin - oh, and run and financed by the conservatives in breach of their coalition promises.

It represents so many of the things that are wrong with UK politics right now.

Largely, I despair of UK voters to be so fooled. Even now the admissions are coming from the No campaigners that this is the end of voting reform for a generation. These of course follow their admissions that the estimates of increased cost were pure invention.

I know the conservatives don't want fair elections, but why would anyone else be fooled by their crock of shit?

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 06 May 11 - 04:17 PM

I am glad sense prevailed , NO was the right call to make.

Glad to see the Conservatives have held their ground in the election.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 May 11 - 03:55 PM

Maybe when Scotland votes for independence in a referendum in a couple of years there'll be another occasion to reform the voting system in England.

I can see why the Tories like it this way.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: MikeL2
Date: 06 May 11 - 03:47 PM

hi

There are arguments for both systems and like many in politics one side cannot ( or will not)see the other side's viewpoint.

It seemed foolish to me to propose to adopt a voting system that is used by only three Countries in the World. Papua New Guinea Fiji and Australia. One of these is said to be trying to remove it and in Australia they have introduced compulsary voting as a result if introducing it.

I voted no because for me that is the right decision. It might not be so for others but soon we will see the real democratic decision made by the rest of the Country. And I will abide with that which-ever way it goes.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: Penny S.
Date: 06 May 11 - 11:11 AM

Under AV, I still wouldn't have had anyone else to vote for.

Richard, at the moment I don't have much confidence in any party. The Greens seem to have given up hereabouts, judging from their response to me. Besides which, I want to be clear of all my responsibilities at my old home before I start anything new. (And I haven't kept up with that resolution, as the local residents' association was having trouble finding committee members.) Also, I want to be invisible from the the previous bad neighbour. But the thought has crossed my mind, and will probably do so again.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: Allan Conn
Date: 06 May 11 - 08:00 AM

"I coud not honestly use my three votes, so only used one. AV would have been no help at all."

Under AV you wouldn't have to use all your votes though!

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 May 11 - 07:37 AM

Had you considered, Penny, standing yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: Stu
Date: 06 May 11 - 06:26 AM

I voted yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Any thoughts on AV? (Alternative Vote)
From: Penny S.
Date: 06 May 11 - 05:56 AM

Voted yes, and then had the difficult choice for three places on the district council. Four people standing, three of whom were Tory. I coud not honestly use my three votes, so only used one. AV would have been no help at all. I gather from communications since my blow up the other week that even the Tories had trouble getting their three to stand. No electoral communications from Labour at all.

Voter apathy? Politician apathy round here.

Penny