Getting on the bottom rung

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jul 12 - 06:21 PM

Down here in Dorset, they have this vinny blue stuff (which the loacals are very proud of) - I can well believe its been all them places.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 08 Jul 12 - 05:34 PM

" the popularist drivel we do on Saturday nights - like our celebrated medley of the hits of Peters & Lee (for which I wear shades, natch); he only time, indeed, you'll see Rapunzel & Sedayne holding hands on stage. Goes down a storm."

Video proof please!

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 08 Jul 12 - 06:25 AM

Blandiver - that is the fiendlishly amusingest thing I have read in ages - I snorted & I am not even an pigge.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 08 Jul 12 - 06:21 AM

Can I just apologise for certain aspects of that last post? It's early Sunday morning & I'm nursing my second hangover of the weekend. From bottom-rung to bottom o' the barrel...

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 08 Jul 12 - 05:44 AM

Oh that cheese. I though you meant the popularist drivel we do on Saturday nights - like our celebrated medley of the hits of Peters & Lee (for which I wear shades, natch); he only time, indeed, you'll see Rapunzel & Sedayne holding hands on stage. Goes down a storm.

Anyway, back to Ye Ancient Cheese Lore o' Chester. And bear with me because this is really interesting, and possible offensive to those of a more delicate cast of mind. If easily offended I suggest you stop reading now...

All the cheese rolled in Chester (& Coopers Hill in Gloucester) is well wrapped up & thorougly waxed; indeed, truckles for rolling are double-waxed, not because of the dirt however. If a cheese gets rolled too much it turns into butter - albeit a very sour sort of butter traditionally held to be only fit for pigs & whores. Pigs can't get enough of it, this rancid pig butter which is often mixed with acorns as a special treat for our rare old breed pokers - such as the very rare Old Cheshire 10-Spot Markle; see recent feature on BBC's Country File. In the middle ages pigge buttere was used as a bait in wild boar hunting. Folklorists aren't sure what came first - the sport of cheese rolling, or the task of cheese rolling to make pig butter as bait and feed. It's easy to imagine those over-worked folk-singing fuedal peasants of yore making sport out of their daily grind, complete with obstacle courses, such as we see on the streets of Chester. Indeed, if you carefully persuse the vivid marginalia of The Luttrell Psalter, where scenes of everyday seasonal peasant life, copulation, labour & childbirth are depicted to often hilarious effect, there too you'll scenes of medieval cheese-rolling, though for chore, sport, or both it's difficult to say.

From written sources we can say tha in the 14th century Pig Butter was also used as a dressing for the Cheshire Bagpipes & as 1532, ye verye olde putride pigge buters were being used as a 4-in-one folk-ointment (salve, lubricant, 'exciter' and contraception) by the folk whores of Gloucester. It is reported that many of the lasses at the end of the shift would find a 'yearling pigge' to clean out the leavings of the night's labours, thus giving them more pleasure than any human snout ever could. Such horrid bestial practices were common amongst the folk peasanty during the middle ages (God knoweth), and we shouldn't judge them by the folk standards of our own time, though in certain rural regions of England 'pigging' is a prefered alternative to 'dogging' to this day. Very much a spectator sport though, and not considered folk at all really, which is a shame really, I think. But there you go.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,Tony Rath aka Tonyteach
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 08:27 PM

Amen to Mr Firth - Totally agree with him

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 07:52 PM

Don - It WAS a lot easier back then - MY First spur to think about getting Club gigs in UK was my local club booking a guy who didnt seem to much better a musician than me , nor much better a singer ! But that WAS in the Mid Sixties !
Now , at least in UK , there are some 'Orrible Good youngsters with degrees In Folkology looking for bookings in a steadily dwindling number of venues , especially since the recession !

Good Advice though - Open Mics in Pubs are at least good Practice , even for Unaccompanied singers .

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 07:25 PM

Assuming that you know a fair number of songs and can sing them well—and can play some kind of accompanying instrument well—and can put together an interesting, cohesive program. You want to sing anywhere and everywhere that you can. This includes, at first, parties and get-togethers with friends and relatives, volunteering to entertain at hospitals and retirement homes—even busking. Sing at every opportunity.

My first "big break" came when an acquaintance of mine who had heard me at a number of "hoots" (folk singers' jam sessions in private homes), and who was programming for a local educational channel (which I didn't know at the time), asked me to do a television series on folk music. I wasn't sure I was ready for this, but he assured me that I'd do fine. So I swallowed my panic and did the series. I sang songs and talked about their histories and where they had come from. Academic, but lots of fun, and a fair number of people seemed to like the show because the station asked me back a number of times.

Coffeehouses were just starting to open up around Seattle, and a local theater owner, who was also opening a coffeehouse, had seen the television show, called me, and asked me to sing there regularly three nights a week—for pay!

Then—a couple of fellows who heard me at the coffeehouse asked me to do a concert at a local university. Then it happened again. And again. I sang at several colleges and universities around the Pacific Northwest, a couple of them on an annual basis. And over the ensuing years I sang regularly at some five different coffeehouses in the area, all for regular pay (different from some coffeehouses on the East Coast where the singers sang for tips—called "basket houses").

During the Seattle World's Fair in 1962, I sang, along with about a dozen other singers, at the United Nations Pavilion every Sunday afternoon. We donated our time and talent. But—every week or so, one of us would get hired to sing at some event or other by someone who had heard us sing at the Pavilion. I was asked to do more college concerts, and I got hired to sing at the Port Angeles Centennial and the Port Townsend Arts Festival.

Each of these gigs led to other gigs.

The point of all this is that   a) you've got to be a reasonably good singer and entertainer in the first place;   b) and then, you have to give people an opportunity to hear you, even if it's a small venue and doesn't pay. Every time you sing somewhere, it could be an audition, so give it your best. The educational television series didn't pay. But a lot of people saw the show.

Talent is important. But as someone said, "Talent is 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration." Practice. Learn. Work at it.

It IS a matter of being at the right place at the right time. And you must be ready when that time comes.

####

If you're singing folk songs (traditional songs), you don't have to confine yourself to singing for groups of folk music enthusiasts. In fact, this can prove to be something of a dead end. Think "incestuous."

Sing for other groups. If I were to do it all over again, I would bone up on some of the oldest and earliest traditional songs I could find, get myself a period instrument such as a Renaissance guitar or a Baroque guitar (either or both would be easy enough for me to play because they're tuning is essentially the same as a modern guitar), which would give the whole thing a bit of panache, then I'd attempt to appeal to aficianados of Early Music.

I didn't become famous or make a fortune, but I did become fairly well-known around the Pacific Northwest—and I made a decent living at it.

And thoroughly enjoyed the whole thing!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 03:02 PM

well that's okay - but it leaves those of us who DO stand up and be counted and say - well actually everythings not hunky dory. There most definitely IS something rotten in the state of folk music, very isolated. Open to attacks upon our integrity and genuineness.

None of which matters, Blandriver and I do have that much in common - we could never be confused with the middle of the road - even if we were singing My Way. you see me, and you know its a pretty weird road I'm travelling, whatever my postion on it.

If you feel like you do - why don't you want to grab the world by the throat, and say - listen you b------ds! Don't creep through the world - its not dignified for a human being. And what if people DO think you've got an attitude problem. Bollocks to 'em! You've got right to express how you feel.    That's what our parents fought the nazis for. Don't let the nazi buggers get a toe hold just by calling themselves folksingers.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,Mr Kevin Bottomrung
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 01:02 PM

Al, johncharles, anyone else who's curious about who this guy channeling his inner teenager actually IS--I think it's highly likely you've seen links to my music on the Cat before now. I would rather not make a link between my music and this thread, however. I mean, imagine the scene: you're at a festival/in a singaround/in a singaround at a festival/whatever, and you've just been graced by my dulcet tones. Your neighbour turns to you and says, "Who was THAT?" Ah, you reply knowingly, that was Fred--you remember, that guy who posted on Mudcat all about how nobody would give him a booking and life's not fair. "Oh right," replies your neighbour (who appears to have turned into Father Dougal), "it must be terrible having an attitude problem like that."

I don't think this thread reflects too well on (the real) me, basically.

Blandiver - hullo der! No guessing in public please, that would be just so unfair.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 12:37 PM

By the way Blandiver, was the Penguin quoting the Silkie or Ward The Pirate

You learn something new every day! Thanks for that muchly. Of course I didn't mean it was a conscious thing, but it does resonate beautifully with The Great Selkie. I like it when such resonances occur from seemingly disparate parts of my life.

Having figured out who Mr Kevin Bottomrung is I can't honestly believe no-one else has. I'd say it was obvious from the get-go.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 11:37 AM

well i for one, am agog to hear what the world's been missing out on. You're a bit of a spoilsport - not letting us hear you - after all this argie bargy

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,John Foxen
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 11:23 AM

Even if you get onto the bottom rung there's still a long, long way to go.
Recently we (Foxen) were asked to do an opening spot at a local festival (unpaid of course). There we were at 11am on a Saturday in a small tent in a corner of a field playing to a dozen or so people.
Afterwards the MC announced: "It's always good to have someone reliable to do the seagull shift -- when only the seagulls are there to hear you."
Refreshingly honest but it could have been depressing. It wasn't because of that dozen in the audience two couples who had heard us play at different clubs had come specially to see us. What a fantastic compliment to get appreciation for something you actually enjoy doing. What better way to spend time than singing and playing which can be its own reward.
I can only say to our Unknown that you have to keep pushing (but nicely not arrogantly) and be grateful for the seagull shifts.
PS By the way Blandiver, was the Penguin quoting the Silkie or Ward The Pirate:
"Go home, go home, says Captain Ward
And tell your king for me,
If he reigns king all on the land
Ward will reign king on the sea."

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 10:20 AM

There's also the strategy of waiting around until all the performers getting the bookings die.

It probably won't do you any good but it's a strategy. The audience may also be dead by then!

Getting older,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 10:14 AM

I think that this thread might be better attended if cookies and identities were automatically stripped and posters given identities for the purposes of this thread only. This would facilitate frankness. At present I am reluctant to say anything substantive lest on the one hand I sound like Kevin the Teenager or on the other hand an arrogant self-satisfied know-all, or indeed a pompous twat.

And NOBODY had better dare ask what is different about my posts on this thread. Grin.

There are, however, a number of people who do get bookings who are gobsmackingly awful (some with egos so large to compensate that I will be off out of the door on sight), a larger number of perpetual floorsingers (or players) who are also so, and a number of apparently perpetual floorsingers (or players) who are just wonderful but don't get the big stage bookings.

I am a little saddened by the repeated preference for "entertainers" above musicians or singers.

I would also say that serendipity may make two adequate of better floor players into much more than the sum of their parts as a duo. It's worth thinking about, perhaps particularly if one plays no instrument at all.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 09:10 AM

Vic, all the points you raise soundly reinforce why someone like me
should aim realisticly for an internet only presence
as a 'recording artist' entity...

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: Vic Smith
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 08:59 AM

Towards the top of the thread, Anahata wrote:-
Make a demo CD.

Personally, I have become a bit wary of demos. There was the guy I booked a few years ago and when, at the end of the evening, I said that his guitar style on his demo was different (and by that I actually meant much worse), he admitted that it was another guitarist on the recording, but nowhere on the demo was this stated.

Then there are the number of young performers who are fine singers and musicians but when you see them live turn out to be "shoe gazers" with no audience communication skills.

Seeing performers live is the answer. If I am booked at a festival, I never forget that I am also a club organiser and try to see as many other acts as possible, however heavy my schedule is; my record was over 90 a few years ago at Whitby. It's not just checking out people that you have not seen before. Previously, you may have caught someone on an off day; many young performers are improving all the time; some established acts end up resting on their laurels and just coast along. For me, it is very important that the people that I book are talented, sincere about their music but also able to put it over well.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 08:34 AM

I keep thinking if the cheese goes through somewhere where a dog has been doing its business, or having a wee - well you wouldn't fancy it. But the thing is, you wouldn't know if you saw it in the shop afterwards, if it had been rolling round in unsavoury places.

When you go to Lancashire/Cheshre - their ethnic cheese is quite expensive. Whereas in Yorkshire - Wensleydale is always very reasonable.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 07:31 AM

I think the best thing to do here is share experiences & anecdotes, and maybe realise the best advice is not to take any advice other than to be true to yourself & do it your own way. In my experience, Folk isn't too friendly a place to be. That this rule is proved by Very Signifant Exception is A) Why I'm still folkin' 40 years on from First Contact, and B) Steadfastly refusing to compromise my art in the face of the MOR tendancies which I feel run contrary to the spirit of traditional song.

Last night I took part in a session that ranks with the best ever in 40 years. My wife sang Alison Gross to the accompaniment of hurdy-gurdy, Jew's Harp & a legion of voices & melodeon drones. Dave Peter's sang Spencer the Rover and we tore the place apart. I sang The Collier's Rant as an elegy to my old marra Frank Williamson who left the planet a few days ago. No music is better than this sort of raw feral seance with the soul of traditional song. Everyone there sang & played beautifully. Another Utopia, right here on earth. And the only applause I heard was my own in the appreciation, gratitude & utter wonder at the brilliance of my fellow sessioneers.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: johncharles
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 07:14 AM

yes I was somewhat insensitive in the way I put that. I am not the belligerent type. I was really thinking that if people on mudcat saw some of Like a complete unknown's performances they might give honest positive feedback - unlike youtube which as you have pointed out can be an unforgiving environment in which to share your work.
john

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 06:58 AM

johncharles - you're exhibiting the sort of folkish belligerence that's guaranteed to put off the likes of our Getting on the Botton Runger. God knows - it's enough to put off even the most hardened pro...

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,Like a complete unknown
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 06:56 AM

"How will we ever Know?"

You never will! You may hear that Fred Bloggs (or whoever), formerly better known among a small circle of friends in Wath-on-Dearne (or wherever), has done the odd paid slot and sold a few downloads and is widely thought to be "quite good", but you'll never know it was me. Put it another way, now that I've owned up to being a snivelling fame-whore with a weirdly passive-aggressive aversion to asking anyone for anything, there's no way I'm telling you who I REALLY am. I just have to hope nobody's sussed me already (or if they do that they keep quiet).

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: johncharles
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 06:22 AM

But I'll promote myself a bit more, in the flesh as well as online (I'm no stranger to self-promotion online. How will we ever Know?
john

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 06:12 AM

The food in those places is as plentiful as the generosity. Mind you, the best Folk Hospitality I've had in recent years was Wendy's hot pot at the KFFC - generally you're lucky if you get a bag o' crisps. We did at gig at the Green Note in London a few weeks back which was very cool on the food front although I was suffering from near-vaso-vagal heatstroke to such an extent that I couldn't figure out what to do with the edemame beans. In Blackpool its a multi-culti buffet (not good for vampires) with as much fish, chips, pizza, yorkshire puds, chow mein, egg fried rice and curry as you can eat. Trick is, not to spill any down my spandex costume during the apres-gig pig-out...

Then there was a craft brewery in Todmorden where I did a solo storytelling gig as part of a literature fest a few years back & found heaven afterwards in jugs of beer, bread & cheese around a table with hosts and punters. Is that place still there? God I hope so. Utopia. After my set the proprietress came up to me and demanded to know why so many of the characters in my (all traditional) stories were disabled. I tried explaining about the essential outsider nature of the Indo-European folk-tale as a whole, but as I did so she proceeded to take off one of her legs and hand it me. 'I don't give my leg to just anyone,' she said, as I sat there, dumbstruck. Yeah. Utopia!

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 06:11 AM

When Suibhne does cabaret, I should think you can cut the cheese with a knife.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 05:28 AM

Can you eat the cheese afterwards?

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 05:03 AM

Liking is an active thing; not liking is passive, default. I think Mudcat & Facebook reflect that as a whole. Myspace culture was cloying & sycophantic; YouTube can be brutal at times, but, apart from the occassional troll, it's mostly good fun. One our most popular 'folk' videos is a montage made of the Chester Cheese Rolling some years back - the comments this has generated are far more entertaining than the video, or the occasion it records:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=993m0yRR0bg

I don't think Mudcat is the sort of place to tout your wares though; you'd think it would be a good place to share stuff though, but even this there's a general collective mindset that resists such things. Odd, because the come-all-ye ethos is something we all have in common, pretty much. Maybe it's akin to the mindset of a club audience that expects to be won over with banter before they'll start listening to the songs? As one club organiser said to me recently 'Just because you've been played on Radio Three don't expect to go down well with out lot!' 'Okay,' said I, and turned his offer of a gig down because sometimes I'd just as soon not bother to be honest.

But then again I was born with a complete lack of ambition which is over compensated by a surfiet of self-satisfaction & general contentment. I think you need the inner angst to 'get out there' and 'polish your act' to give audiences the sort of thing they want to hear. It's like my wife and I doing our 'Fun 'n' Folk Act' thing which gets us a modest amount of critical approval on the fringes of the 'Weirdlore' fringe, but the real money comes from our glitzy Pop Cabaret Act residency in a seedy Blackpool hotel of a Saturday night where for two hours work covering the Hits o' Yesteryear (with the occasional bawdy trad number thrown in as an afterhours treat; the filthier the better, but The Molecatcher is always a hit, The Crabfish likewise...) we can net ten times as much as you get in your average folk club, and that's before tips - and you don't have to put up with the banjo jokes.

Nice work if you can get it.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,Like a complete unknown
Date: 07 Jul 12 - 05:01 AM

"I just wondered if anyone has ever asked you to do a "gig" or other spot....... or has anyone ever asked you if you have a CD they can buy?"

Well, no--that's what started all this off, the fact that I never have been asked these things despite regularly knocking 'em dead as a floorsinger.

That would certainly be the simplest explanation--I'm not good enough, or at least I'm not good enough at doing something people want to listen to for any length of time.

In which case I just have to think--do I want to do something different in order to be more 'bookable' (and part of me yearns pathetically to be even a tiny, weeny bit bookable)... or do I want to concentrate on doing what I do.

I'll settle for doing what I do, and hopefully getting a bit better at it. But I'll promote myself a bit more, in the flesh as well as online (I'm no stranger to self-promotion online)--what's the worst that can happen?

Thanks again all (including Banjiman).

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 03:51 PM

GUEST,Like a complete unknown .......

I just wondered if anyone has ever asked you to do a "gig" or other spot....... or has anyone ever asked you if you have a CD they can buy?

I've always assumed because no one has ever asked me these things (solo anyway) that I'm not good enough to think about looking for gigs. So I don't, I stick to very informal singarounds etc. I'm a moderate singer and OK banjo player..... nothing more (but happy with that as I'd never picked up an instrument until my mid 30's and I'm still amazed I can play at all!).

My control for this assumption is that people do regularly ask my other half to do gigs or if she has a CD they can buy. Which is why she started looking for gigs and has recorded CDs. And she is pretty good.....

I think people will let you know if it's worth trying to take the next step.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,stevesg
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 03:48 PM

there is music, and there is entertainment.

if you want to be a musical entertainer, musical talent helps, but is not necessary. you _must_ be a unique and skilled entertainer.

other than that, it's being able to capitalize on the luck of the draw.

it's a business. a living. not necessarily a life.

s.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 03:46 PM

Once when I was onstage they threw heavy objects and shouted, 'Why doesn't this idiot shut up!'

Once?

I think JohnCharles's checklist above is a much more accurate way of judging if people like what you do...

Which is why somebody like the Great Unknown - sorry, "Like a complete unknown" - might find it so frustrating to be prevented by mysterious occult forces from ever getting a spot. Or by not actually asking anyone.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 03:42 PM

"As on Facebook though, not liking something generally means people don't like it. Same on Mudcat - I often put up a link thread here to something I've done and if no one comments it's because they don't like it."

Oh Mr Blandiver, that's so not true mate.

There are all sorts of reasons why people don't "like" a link that people have put up on Facebook or on here.

1/ They've already "liked" 3 things you've put up this week
2/ They don't see it
3/ You haven't reciprocated when they've put something up
4/ They don't want you to think you're too popular (some of us are English after all!)
5/ They don't know you and they only "like" their mates stuff
6/ You're better than they are
7/ They've already "liked" a dozen other peoples stuff today
8/ They don't read anything anyone else puts up anywhere anyway and are only interested in their own posts.
9/ They just can't be arsed.

If you read no feedback (online anyway) as a negative I think you're misreading people.

I think JohnCharles's checklist above is a much more accurate way of judging if people like what you do.....

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: johncharles
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 03:10 PM

you should have waved your big red sauage at them Al.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 02:18 PM

Yes I can confirm all this.

Once when I was onstage they threw heavy objects and shouted, 'Why doesn't this idiot shut up!' - but I was so much in the zone that I didn't notice.

Real folk music has nothing to do with folk at all.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: johncharles
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 01:18 PM

How to tell how you are doing
a. do the audience stay in the room
b. do they applaud
c. do they thank you after the event
d. do they offer to buy you beer (my favourite)
e. if it is a collection divide the total by the number in the room and your worth to them is there to see
f. do you get a re-booking
g.do they buy your CD
g. did you really enjoy it - you probably will have with any three of the above

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 12:58 PM

I once offered a come-all-ye to 'Catters to contibute to a folk song project of cover versions of the songs on Martin Cathy's Landfall album - I think about three people got back to me.

Hey, I remember that - I offered a Cruel Mother I'd just recorded. Shame I was in such select company - it would have been good.

If you want people to like you, don't do folk. It really is that simple.

There's certainly something in that. Folk music is an end in itself - it has to be.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 12:08 PM

PS - If you want people to like you, don't do folk. It really is that simple.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 12:00 PM

And God, I love the applause.

Here's something - I'm deaf to applause. After a recent session my wife commented on how well a particular song had gone down, but I hadn't noticed. I guess it comes with being in the zone really. I'm always amazed listening back to live recordings just how well it's gone down because I never hear it at the time.

It's worse doing concerts, especially if there's a PA. I hate PAs. They just get in the way of the music & the audience. I still use 'em though, but it's always best without, especially in a small club room. We did a wee spot at the KFFC last year with no PA & it felt amazing - largish hall too... I felt I could actually talk to the audience without mumbling into the mic.

As a storyteller, you learn to hate PA systems.

Anyway; I never hear applause but the sea always roars!* But not just the sea; I like windy woods & open moors where I can really howl at the moon. Or deserted country churches where I might record my fiddle improvs by way of far darker communion than anything you're going to get in front of an audience. Shit, sometimes it gets so spooky you think there is an audience. Several times it's taken weeks before I've got the nerve to listen back to the recordings. One time in Norfolk I got so freaked out when I was recording my doromb in a remote church (the upper room at Salle) I deleted the recording out of fear of what sort of thing I might have heard on the recording. Oo-er.

Or was it just out of respect?

Respect is a good thing. I get lots of respect, but just as much hostile indifference really. At our old folk club the same people would always go out to the bar when it came to my turn. Once I had one woman scream blue murder at me to shut up playing my crwth because she hated it so much. We'd been such friends hitherto as well, but we never spoke again after that, and now she's dead. And I really miss her. RIP. Respect.

Just a thought - if you want honest appraisals, post your stuff on YouTube. You get some corking reactions there for sure. We recently picked up a troll on a live clip of our CWMD...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IJQzcyDTQI

As on Facebook though, not liking something generally means people don't like it. Same on Mudcat - I often put up a link thread here to something I've done and if no one comments it's because they don't like it. Generally this doesn't bother me at all, but I once offered a come-all-ye to 'Catters to contibute to a folk song project of cover versions of the songs on Martin Cathy's Landfall album - I think about three people got back to me. Are we downhearted? Not bloomin' likely!

* Does that strike anyone else as a Penguinism? In the old Batman film (1966) he paraphrases The Great Selkie of Sule Skerry: On land you may command, but on the sea it is me! (wha what wha!) Burgess Meredith, one of my lifelong heroes.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,Like a complete unknown
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 11:14 AM

PFR:

"If anyone actually enjoyed it, and encouraged me to continue so they could hear more.
Well, that little amout of respect from contemporaries would be more than enough motivation and reward to make me feel it's all been worthwhile."

Whereas I just think "Only 41 plays in the last week!" Somebody I moaned to about this (offline) said that if I was getting ten times the number of hits I'd be saying "only 410 plays!" Either that or "410 people! They can't *all* like my stuff!"

Hangups. To be ignored. Concentrate on music (initially wrote "concentrate om music", which I suppose would also work).

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 11:10 AM

Trying to break in, assuming you do a good job with the songs you lead, also requires scouting out possible venues. You need to know the contact people, how to reach them, what they like for music, and what their personal schedule is for booking. Persistence is also an asset, as in follow-up on the initial contact, and thanks afterwards if you are booked. And, finally, know when to fold them when the contact is not working.

Sometimes it's useful to have someone else recommend you who is respected by the person doing the booking. Eventually you need to stand on your own two feet, or one if you have good balance.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble, a star in his own mind

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,Like a complete unknown
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 11:05 AM

I'm going to stop being LACU soon (although not on this thread)--I'm hearing from enough 'catters who know me under my real name to make this a bit uncomfortable.

People have given some excellent tips. I think now that what I was asking for isn't advice about folk music at all--or at least it's advice with much wider validity. And it's been given, for which I'm very grateful. Summing up:

Q: Why isn't it happening for me?

Answers:
"Sour grapes ain't good" (Blandiver)

Do you really want it to happen? What are you doing about it? Are you complaining because you've made an effort and got nowhere, or because you don't want to make an effort? (Tootler, treewind)

Are you good enough? Really? Is there some practising you could be doing instead of feeling sorry for yourself? (Will Fly, Blandiver)

Are you trying to sell tofu to steak-eaters (or vice versa)? Might it be a better idea to try a different approach? (also Will)

"Being a musician is a matter of quiet humility; you know you've been chosen but it might not be clear what for. ... The real thing is just a matter of accepting the calling & being prepared to pay your dues & being philosophical about people liking your shit or not. Be true to yourself; what happens happens, what doesn't happen, doesn't." (Blandiver again)

Interesting to get such similar advice from two such different musicians as WF and B.

One final, personal note. (Handy things, pseudonyms).

"I get more pleasure singing whilst walking on the beach than I ever do performing in a Folk Club" (Blandiver)
I know just what this means. I haven't lived by the sea since I was a kid, but I used to really go places singing down the length of a windy beach (there to dance beneath the diamond sky... he knew what he was talking about). And that was when I didn't even know the old songs--walking the dog with Tam Lin would be a meditation in itself. (Wait till my wife gets home. "I've had a brilliant idea, we're moving to Formby. And getting a dog.")

Anyway... what you don't get that way is the applause. And God, I love the applause. But talking about walking on the beach reminds me how lonely I was growing up--and maybe what I really like about the applause is that it's the sound of people saying "we like you". And the reason I long to be offered work, without ever actually asking for work, is that I think it's only if something's offered freely that you know they're doing it because they like you.

Hangups, in short. To be ignored. Concentrate on music.

Many thanks, everyone--you've given me a lot to think about.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 10:52 AM

This is what happens if you open up threads and don't refresh for an hour before getting round to posting.

Blandiver as usual covers similar ground as me but far more eloquently...

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 10:43 AM

.. and to consider a different angle of approach & ambition...

Our Band of lifelong old mates is slowly fizzling out..
For the last decade we've enjoyed sporadic gigs for the fun of it;
mostly 'political' benefit gigs, or support to visiting European bands.
If we ever got paid, it was never enough to cover individual travel
and food & drink for the night or weekend.
We're all getting older, and increasingly held back by family commitments and mid-life health conditions.
What used to be 'fun' has slowly started becoming a bit of an inconvenient chore;
and the last gig we managed to all get together for was a year ago...

For a long time I've nurtured my own ideas for solo material and full presentation 'stage act'.
This point of my life [early to mid 50s] would be an opportune time to start doing something about it.

Thing is, no matter how much I've imagined and planned a full creative live & recording career package.
I just have to accept that I have never had the personal driving desperate ambition, ruthless personality, or talent
to have any hope of making it as a solo music artist.

No excuses, its the brutal truth and I've faced up to it.

I'm not even a remotely sociable person.
I detest going to parties and the wife's work social functions.
Networking and social brown nosing is complete torturous anathema.

But, The internet...

Now this is where I can still hold out some realistic positive hope.
I can potter about in my home project studio with all my toys
and crackpot recording inclinations.
Enjoy the fun of recording and brutalising old trad tunes and songs,
making tracks sounding the way I'd like to hear if only someone more talented than me
would do it....
Then stick the results up on some free trendy muso's website
to invite ridicule and consternation from all true folk music aficionados.

If anyone actually enjoyed it, and encouraged me to continue so they could hear more.
Well, that little amout of respect from contemporaries would be more than enough motivation and reward
to make me feel it's all been worthwhile.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 09:56 AM

1972: 10,000 punters for every 10 performers.
2012: 10,000 performers for every 10 punters.

Or so it seems. We've moved into a phase of Traditional Culture now with much democratisation as Celebrity Culture levels off into talent show MOR blandness & often the most interesting stuff is being done in bedrooms & posted on line with only a very small audience. The point is the taking part & the collectivity & seeking one's voice...

In folk, I've met lots of very succesful professionals in one field or other who feel the need to be folksingers too. Thing is, they invariably bring their career ego with them - feeling that just because they're at the top of their game in anthropology (or whatever), then that qualifies them to be folk singers too. It's a cliche really - the folk singing middle-classes; I grew up with it. Indeed, my introduction to folk came via a teacher when I was 11; needless to say said teacher was very middle class, very wise, and sang the old songs with a passion but sounded like a tenth-rate wannabe which is exactly what they were, but in their mind they was determined to get the bookings which always eluded them.

You meet a lot of very sour souls who feel the odds were unfairly stacked against them with respect of breaks; the more localised the mentality the worse it is.

Being a musician is a matter of quiet humility; you know you've been chosen but it might not be clear what for. Mostly it's an end in itself & an honour besides; occasionally it might become something more, but it all depends on the scene really. I go with Sun Ra when he says that Music is gifted on you by the Creator of the Universe (please note although an athiest I still believe in the Creator; my atheism is with respect of the God of Religion and the Creator is most certainly not the God of Religion) and whatever you play goes straight to his throne, which is how you are judged, according to your music, and the reasons why you're doing it.

Sour grapes ain't good; I've worked with tons of musicians whose boots I am not fit to lick. Somewhere out there in the feral fringes of Traditional Song it's often a matter of ploughing long & lonely furrows in the knowledge that that's exactly what the old singers did. I get more pleasure singing whilst walking on the beach than I ever do performing in a Folk Club - fact. Whenever I do perform I try and bear that in mind. Not easy. In fact, I'm never happy with performances because there's no going back & editing them; too many variables & things to go wrong, which they always do, and if one thing goes wrong it overshadows everything.

Integrity. Humility. And lots of Practise. And Patience. It's a Zen thing. And if you think you're as good as Elle Osborne, then take time to relect that you're probably not.

Anyone heard of Esme Ryder? She's the greatest female singer on the planet, easily on a par with Peter Bellamy. You might have heard her singing with Annemarie Summers as part of Magpiety. Why Esme isn't a household folk name for her voice alone is one of the great mysteries of our time. I know TONS of amazing singers who remain unknown outside of their local circle. Dave Peters of Preston is the greatest male folk voice ever, IMHO.

I do get pissed of with wannabe professions who wear their egos in public - I've met too many truly gifted singers & musicians who evidenced no ego at all to cope with that. I have shared fags with Marshall Allen under the Edinburgh stars; I once discussed the vagueries of Folk Hospitality with Peter Bellamy even before I ever ever heard him sing. No matter how good a person is, I hold no truck with showboating. The real thing is just a matter of accepting the calling & being prepared to pay your dues & being philosophical about people liking your shit or not. Be true to yourself; what happens happens, what doesn't happen, doesn't. As Sun Ra says, either it is, or it ain't.

And when it all gets too much, then click HERE, and keep on clicking until all your cares just melt away....

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: theleveller
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 09:25 AM

"I've known for a while that I could get a spot at my local FC if I was half as good a guitarist as I am a singer."

I think you just isolated the problem. I can't think of many solo unaccompanied singers, no matter how good, who I'd listen to for 30-45 minutes. Why not get together with one or more musicians and sell yourselves as a duo/trio/band?

I played around clubs, singarounds etc. for years before, with mrsleveller, we suddenly got several gigs. What it made me realise was that I wssn't good enough even to be a support to a pro folk musician - so, with a sigh of relief, I went back to the floor spots and signarounds which, I've realised, together with a bit of amateur home recording, are really my natural habitat.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: Northerner
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 09:23 AM

If you want to do a full set you need to build up to it in stages. After all how do you know that you would remember your hour and a half of materila, and present it in a way that is entertaining? Ask your local club for a hot spot; it is half the length of a full spot. You won't be paid money but you will gain valuable skills. Offer to do short sets for charities etc. Folk singers don't just perform at folk clubs; they also work alongside poets, artists and acoustic musicians. They perform in care homes, arts centres and libraries. Explore the different venues in your area. Learn to play an instrument so you can add variety to your set. If a guitar isn't your instrument try something else. Good luck!

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: Tootler
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 09:11 AM

Will has hit the nail on the head!

Get involved in your local music scene(s). You will probably find there are a number of overlapping scenes locally. I belong to a choir and a wind band, the North East Recorder Orchestra, play in a folk group who get gigs in local events - village hall, WI; that sort of thing - as well as going to local folk clubs. I don't go to as many of the latter is I used to. I had a mild heart attack a couple of years ago and my wife gets a bit edgy if I go out too often, but I keep busy get regular performing opportunities and generally enjoy myself. Mostly purely amateur and unpaid, but the folk group mostly gets paid, not much, especially after it has been divided up. Most important, though, I am enjoying myself.

By getting involved you get yourself known and from that opportunities can arise.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 08:06 AM

Good on you Vic for insisting on paying for the talent. I raise a glass to you.

As for "getting on the bottom rung", there are so many good musicians out there who play in their local community with hardly a thought of doing other than enjoying themselves and entertaining their friends. Here's a mate of mine from Exeter, Ian Gardner with his wife Jane on washboard, on YouTube. Lovely playing, lovely singing - Jane manages a smile here and there in spite of nerves - and I'm looking forward to getting over to them in Exeter to join in their local fun in the Whipton Music Club after Sidmouth Folk Week.

Ian & Jane Gardner: "Easy Riding' Mama"

Ian helps to run the Club:

Whipton Music Club

and is very active in the local scene around Exeter.

There are probably thousands of people like Ian, making music for the hell of it, organising stuff, getting paid now and then, having a good time, giving people a good time. Recognition? Who knows... I certainly recognise his talent and enjoy his friendship.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 07:58 AM

Firstly, to pick up on what Al said earlier, it doesn't appear that you have been "giving it your all" for 10 years. You've been doing floor spots in a few fairly local clubs - that's not giving your all. So to suggest that gives any indication of whether you're good enough to make it is misleading.

If you're not used to doing longer sets why not ask one of the clubs you regularly play at if they'll give you a longer spot?

From my own observation, it's often not the most technically proficient singers or musicians who make it, it's the ones who can entertain an audience (by which I mean hold an audience's attention), who are able to network, and who are prepared to pursue every opportunity, no matter how unlikely or unpromising it appears.

Subject: RE: Getting on the bottom rung
From: Vic Smith
Date: 06 Jul 12 - 07:26 AM

Coincidence time!
As I was typing my previous post, there was the thud of today's post on the door mat. Several albums as usual including a second copy of the album mentioned above; a review copy from a leading magazine. It will be receiving an enthusiastic review from me.