BS: Bush's press conference last night.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 07:15 PM

Right, L.H., I'm conserved!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 06:37 PM

Doug is a hundred and nineteen, Greg. He's living proof that conservatism aids longevity! (joke, okay?) :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 11:25 AM

Not unless you're something over 90, Doug.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 06:28 AM

Recognising our own faults and mistakes does not weaken us either as individuals or as nations. Concealing them and ignoring them does.

"Tell me what I am doing wrong?" is an essential element in learning how to do anything better. Sometimes when people are making a lot of mistakes and lack confidence it can be best to ignore some of the mistakes, and concentrate on what they are doing right. But doing it that way is a measure of weakness in the person concerned.

Is America really supposed to be seen as a faltering student to be shielded from criticism? (And that applies to other countries too.)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 11:44 PM

Ah, Greg F., I wondered when your were going to uncoil. I'm not your boy, by the way, I'm probably old enough to be your father. I'm sure we both are glad that I'm not.

Carol: So it's your patriotic duty to point out what you view as transgressions by the U. S.? Okay. If that's what winds you up, have a ball!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 10:19 PM

That's my boy, Doug! I knew you wouldn't let us down. Don't just be ignorant & refuse to inform yourself, FLAUNT your ignorance, be PROUD of it, REVELL in it, BRAG about it! You've never let facts stand in the way of your self-satisfied opinions before, so why start now? I don't think you're trying to be humorous above, I think you really do mean what you say. That's what is so pitiful.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 05:47 PM

I guess I'm having a difficult time seeing how we're going to accomplish what we say we want to do if we don't abide by the same standards of behavior and the same rules that we apply to others.

In fact, I predict that it is not possible. So I consider it my patriotic duty to put the spotlight on those activities of our government that contribute to the problems that we now face.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 05:22 PM

You know, Carol, I really don't know enough about the School of the Americas to comment on that. All I know is what I have read in this post. I have not gone to the links provided, because my concern at the moment is the war being waged against the terrorists that attacked our country on September 11th. I favor promoting unity during this time of need, not disparity, and that is what I consider posts to be that concentrate on criticizing our government for past sins. Particularly when I don't know more about the subject. Off the cuff, if so many of the liberals posting are so opposed to the School of the Americas, I suspect I might well support the work done there.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 05:20 PM

As I understand it Bin Laden was a graduate of the Middle East version of the School of the Americas. Not such a good idea.

The word terrorism gets thrown around very loosely. Often its used just to refer to all the activities of insurgent or paramilitary organisations - these are termed terrorists, and therefore anything they do is a type of terrorism.

I think it is better to use it to describe certain types of activity, including brutality intended to coerce and terrorise people into submitting, and the killing of random civilians as a means of achieving this. And described in that way it is fairly obvious that it is part of the repertoire of governments every bit as much. In fact, when it comes to body counts, much more.

And terrorism as so defined is never acceptable, and is in the long run self defeating. Using such methods against Al Qaida will guarantee that atrocities such as September 11th will sooner or later be repeated, because they will have the effect of ensuring a harvest of people willing to carry them out.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 05:14 PM

Well, DougR, the terrorists that we have been training and sponsoring through the School of the Americas have been in the business of promoting our 'interests' (read economic interests here) for a long time, and at the expense of a lot of innocent people's lives for a long time. Should we be held accountable for that as we would hold others accountable for their terrorist activities?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 05:07 PM

Guest, will you wake up?

Carol: I am not suggesting using terrorist tactics to "promote our interests." Duh! I am suggesting it to save our lives!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 03:45 PM

Universal justice and equality for men and women, employment for fair and livable wages, raising the standard living through providing decent housing and health care for all, *everywhere* around the globe, is the only way to eliminate terrorism.

Take all the money currently being spent on militarist adventurism, international welfare programs for multinational corporations, and servicing third world debt, could wipe out terrorism in our lifetimes, if we chose to work toward the above goals peacefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 03:43 PM

Universal justice and equality for men and women, employment for fair and livable wages, raising the standard living through providing decent housing and health care for all, *everywhere* around the globe, is the only way to eliminate terrorism.

Take all the money currently being spent on militarist adventurism, international welfare programs for multinational corporations, and eliminating third world debt could wipe out terrorism in our lifetimes, if we chose to work toward the above goals, rather than continue to mindlessly support the despots and dictators who have been exploiting us and the rest of the world out of their greed and lust for power, and the repressive exploitation of the world's resources for "just us."

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 03:26 PM

That may be true, DougR, but if we want to use terrorism to promote our interests, as we have been for years, we'd probably better stop saying that we are going to eliminate all terrorists and terrorism and the countries and governments that sponsor it.

Maybe we in this country might not see the inconsistancy there, but I'm sure the rest of the world will.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 01:16 PM

Yep, and it may require terrorists, perhaps, to defeat terrorists, CarolC.!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 11:38 PM

They ought to, DougR. They are terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 11:31 PM

Before this is all over, I think we may need lots of graduates from the School of the Americas. I hope they are well trained and that they know how to deal with terrorists.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 09:39 PM

I note from the list of graduates on the School of the Americas Watch website that there don't seem to be any Canadians there.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 11:53 AM

No KimC, they just changed the name at the around the same time that George Shrub was being inaugurated. Go to the SOAW site, and read all about it. They are going strong as ever down there in Fort Benning. I'm sure these days they can't keep up with the commando demands.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,Greg F.
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 10:11 AM

I think Rumsfeld or possibly Dumbya was suggesting targeting it for air strikes, Kim, but then figured Iraq would be more "fun"-   ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 10:02 AM

I thought a few weeks ago there was mention of closing down the School of the Americas...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 09:37 AM

Just a Nobody,

I'm sure I don't know what you would define as "credible" but here is an article from the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/overseas/overseas1a.htm

The site with the best information is the excellent School of the Americas Watch website:

http://www.soaw.org/

BTW, Martin Sheen, the actor who portrays President Bartlett on the TV show "The West Wing" attends the November vigil almost every year.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,Greg F.
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 08:44 AM

Nobody, well here it is from somebody with a name. I just did a "Google" search for "School of the Americas" and it returned 17,900 hits.Any other decent search engine should do about the same. Give it a shot.

Guest is forgetting that its perfectly all right for the U.S. Government to sponsor international terrorism, run terrorist training camps, & all that- just not for anyone else to do so- with the possible exception if Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: kendall
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 07:38 AM

A universally held belief... SURE HE'S A SCOUNDREL, BUT, HE'S OUR SCOUNDREL.

btw We are not ALL jingoists.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 07:34 AM

I am unfamiliar with the School of America, would you please site credible sources for it. Since it is comming from a GUEST with no identification and no sources referenced I have a hard time taking your words as fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 07:25 AM

Or close down the School of the Assasins.

For those of you who are "American innocents" and don't know what the School of the Americas is--it is a training camp for government sponsored terrorism in Latin America and the Caribbean, wholly funded with YOUR tax dollars.

Founded in 1946, the US Army School of the Americas has trained thousands of Latin American and Caribbean soldiers. Among them are the former dictators of Argentina, Bolivia, Honduras, and Panama. Other notable graduates include the Salvadoran officers responsible for the assasination of Archbishop Oscar Romero of El Salvador, as well as many other citizens murdered by the death squads during the civil war in that country. Recent graduates can still be found in many other America-friendly countries like Columbia, as Greg mentions above.

This has been a public service announcement. You may now return to your folk-inspired jingo drumming.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 08:34 PM

Or maybe the U.S. could stop funding the right-wing death squads in Colombia, if only for a couple of weeks, Kevin? How about that as a show of sincerity?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 08:00 PM

"Would we have turned over the head of the C.I.A. to Chile after the murder of President Allende?"

You mean after Pinochet retired and they got back to having a democratic system again? I suppose the amnesty he brought in for his murderers would probably have been intended to cover the head of the CIA as well.

But it might be a nice gesture for the USA to make the offer now, as a way of demonstrating total opposition to terrorism. And the same in respect of Nicaragua and the people who funded and helped the contras.

An offer like that would really help demonstrate what hypocrites other people are.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 07:38 PM

I realize that, Karen C., your reply to Kendall just struck me as funny. He's probably all rested up from his trip now, and as you can see, the trip evidently made him feel pretty fiesty. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 05:51 PM

No really! Isabel Allende is related to Salvador Allende somehow, I just don't remember how... anyway... back to our regular programming. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 05:44 PM

Kim C: you're funny. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 04:05 PM

I regret I am not familiar with that, although I did read a novel by Isabel Allende once. (I think she was his niece?)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: kendall
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 04:00 PM

Would we have turned over the head of the C.I.A. to Chile after the murder of President Allende?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 02:31 PM

Well, noone helped to rebuild Afganistan after it'd been wrecked fighting the Russians.

"They were still willing to sacrifice the Afghan population in favor of ONE MAN. To me there is something dreadfully wrong with that philosophy." Put like that it sounds rather fine actually, and that's how a lot of people all over the world are likely to see it.

The best realistic option would be to cobble up a deal under which Bin Laden gets put on trial in a genuinely independent court, including Muslim judges,and a new regime takes over in Afghanistan including some of the Taliban, with the Al Qaida training camps are closed down, and serious help put in. Anyway that seems to be the kind of deal that is being worked on.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 02:18 PM

Kim C (cookie or not): Good post. You make some excellent points that I'm sure will draw some excellent negative comments.

Guest BE#: sorry if I appeared to over-react to your original post, but criticizem of BS posts by Mudcatters who object to them is such a common complaint, I guess your comment plucked my string.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 02:06 PM

Like it or not we are involved in a heavy situation right now. There is no response or action to this situation that is going to satisfy everyone. There is no leader in any position anywhere who could satisfy everyone.

The Taliban had THREE WEEKS to make a decision about bin Laden. Even when presented with the evidence they requested, they were still willing to sacrifice the Afghan population in favor of ONE MAN. To me there is something dreadfully wrong with that philosophy. Why is bin Laden so much more important than the WHOLE POPULATION of their country? Could it be because he FINANCES the Taliban?

The United States sends money all around the world, including Afghanistan. And didn't we help to rebuild Japan, who declared war on us? Or have I been deluded by some half-rate Yankee history book?

Well. I am tired of talking about it. There is no way that we will all ever agree on what should be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,BE#
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 01:13 PM

DougR,

I know it was marked as BS. It was just my sad attempt at some humor during a discussion of a dreary topic. I was coming here as a short escape from all the talks of war. Yet, when I see these topics I can't help bur read them. I do find it helpful to hear as many opinions as possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: SeanM
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 12:50 AM

In a related topic, I note today that we're condemning Israel's "targeted killings" of Hammas terrorist leaders.

Guess that they should get with the program and start carpet bombing, eh?

Oh wait - didn't we send in the special forces specifically to 'neutralize' terrorist leaders?

Sometimes the din of bullshit coming from On High is truly spectacular.

M

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 12:34 AM

GUEST BE sharp: if you came to this site expecting to discuss music, why on earth would you contribute to this thread? It's plainly marked, "BS". Go find the music threads, of which there are many, and have at it! No one's stopping you!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 06:17 PM

BESharp: I think most people here agree with what you've written. I'm even more cynical on the basics of U.S. policy than you are, though. I think policy is dictated by U.S. interests to the extent that it is not subverted by private financial influence. What gets me most annoyed is when it is subverted by foreign financial influence. Persons or entities in Saudi Arabia may well exert such influence. (And I mean beyond the U.S. policy interests in access to oil reserves.)

However, just about everyone here agrees that the attacks require justice. Almost everyone agrees the underlying purpose for the justice should be deterrence, not revenge. There are a few kooks who think the massacre is just being used as an excuse to raid the 'stans' oil reserves, but the only real dispute here seems to be whether non-force means of coercion can be sufficiently effective, and when they should have been or should be attempted.

There is even agreement that a generalized reduction of international tensions on many fronts is warranted. The speifics require thought on a wide spectrum, though, so nobody has the answers, or pretends to.

The biggest problem is defining the immediate mission and completing it as defined. Answering the questions of how far to go in serving global interests (while impinging upon more immediate U.S. interests) are going to be left to our descendents to figure out, I imagine.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,BEsharp
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 05:51 PM

From what I've seen the US doesn't make foreign policy decisions based on ethics. It's all done based on US interests. Ethics are brought up to justify what is being done. An example: Saudi Arabia has one of the most extreme religiously fundamentalist (see the next section on this) ruling class, yet you never hear about that on CNN.

On a side note I think fundamentalist is not the correct term for these radical islamic groups. The definition of fundamentalism is: A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism. Where this definition does not fit is "a return to fundamental principles". They actually stray far from the original teachings of islam.

There seems to be many posts here that lean far to the right or left. I, like a lot of people I've heard from lately, sit on the fence. I believe there should be justice for the attack. There should measures made to ensure our country's safety from terrorist attacks without infringing on our personal freedoms indefinitely. I also firmly believe we need to look at our foreign policy as a people, with all the facts, and reevaluate how we go about our business with All the countries of the world.

If only there were less sheep in this country.

And to think I was coming to this site expecting to discuss music.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 04:00 PM

Good one Larry124 the roots of the Taliban are pretty close to those of the NAZI's we'd better get on that one right away. I'll warm up the time machine and you get ready to go back and start the Marshall plan in 1919.

Think we've learned?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 04:00 PM

Larry 123, don't shake up Kendall. He's still recovering from his erotic trip to Great Britain.

dougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: kendall
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 03:42 PM

Larry 124, I'd like to suggest that you study some history, it will help you understand not only when, but, WHY. Do you really think those Nazis and Japanese got out of bed one day and decided to declare war on us? To reflect your question, Are you kidding me?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 02:43 PM

I'm watching Bush at the event for children to give a dollar to Afgan children. Although I never thought I would say this about Bush....MWAHAHAHAHAHA MWHAAAHHA

some hypocrites are funnier than others.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Larry124
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 02:25 PM

If only we'd have tried to understand the grievances of the Nazis and the Japanese Militarists in the 1930's, and to learn more about their concerns, and to explain ourselves better to them, then all that sad loss of life 1939-1945 might not have been necessary.

Are you kidding me?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 02:23 PM

Yes, this is bizarre on many levels. I can't find a reference to it, but I do see that the Northern Alliance are announcing conspiracy theories of their own.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001350016-2001360412,00.html

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 02:10 PM

I would think "moderate Taliban" something of an oxymoron, no? Apparently Dumbya sees no contradiction, tho......
Since the so-called "Northern Alliance" is no less religiously fundamentalist than the Taliban, the "New Afghan Regime"- just one more dictatorship placed in power by the U.S.- should be a real great blow for freedom.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 01:58 PM

Anyway, I see from the news tonight that the current US line is in favour of the Taliban being a major element in a new Afghan regime. Moderate Taliban that is.

This game is a lot more complicated and sneaky than they make out in the staged public performances. If anyone says they understand it they are either lying or wrong. Or in some cases both.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 12:25 PM

I said "appear to be fair" Doug. We can call it war and make more enemies or we can call it justice and maybe win the war. The battle with bin Laden is for hearts and minds.