BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 11:43 AM

In trying to find out what is at the root of the Kyrgyz-Uzbek animosity, it appears that it primarily stems from a dispute over livestock grazing rights which has escalated.

From http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900SID/SNAA-7ZX5AN?OpenDocument

"An Uzbek who gave his first name as Sherzod, from the city of Namangan, said confrontations over livestock grazing rights were common in border areas.

"The thing is that there's a large amount of unused pastureland in Kyrgyzstan, and Uzbeks have a lot of livestock," he explained.

In Soviet times, the administrative boundaries between republics did not matter much, and since then, farmers have found it hard to adjust. Uzbeks still think they can go into Kyrgyz territory and graze their animals as they always did. To water their livestock, said Sherzod, they continue to use "streams that have been used in common for centuries", wherever they lie.

According to Odiljon, a resident of Andijan region, things have got worse over the last four or five years, with Kyrgyz border guards growing increasingly intolerant of Uzbek-owned livestock straying over the border.

"It didn't use to be like that," he said. "The Kyrgyz were OK about Uzbeks who grazed their animals on their territory."

There is also tension over Kyrgyz plans for damming waterays for hydroelectric projects:

"One of the pressure points in Kyrgyz-Uzbek relations is the use of water for energy production. Uzbekistan opposes Kyrgyz plans to build hydroelectric plants, fearing that new dams will reduce the flow of water down the Syr Darya waterway to its own agricultural sector."

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 11:40 AM

"PS in democratic society we say people are innocent until proven guilty."

Unless, of course, the person is Israeli- look at the guilt assigned by some based on less than valid evidence- I do NOT say that there should not be an investigation- BUT the entire matter has been one of "First the verdict, THEN the trial." against the IDF.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 11:33 AM

What is the defining factor that makes a crime an atrocity?

Is it the number of dead?

What is that critical number?

There is no answer to that question.

Because it is not the number that matters.

It is the crime that matters.

The crime in this case is the murder of innocent civilians.

In this case compounded by apparent cover up and slander.

PS in democratic society we say people are innocent until proven guilty.

So unless you have proof of the guilt of the people who died, (once you have established their crime) then they qualify as being innocent victims of murder.

PPS please don't excuse our crimes by pointing at other peoples.

And yes BB - as Carol points out, unless we protest these actions, we give tacit consent to our governments for committing them.

So they are OUR crimes - you and me both!

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 10:42 AM

"John, this thread is not about Israel. It's supposed to be about everyone except Israel." CarolC

Dear CarolC--I suggest you read the post from Greg F. which immediately preceded mine, and several others before that, and a couple afterward. I accept your apology. Now maybe you'd actually like to respond directly to the information provided in Mr. Bard's article...or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 10:36 AM

Lox,

And labeling something as an atrocity , while ignoring far more deaths as not worth discussing, seem to me a bit biased as well.

Have you ever looked at the number of PALESTINIANS killed by Egypt, or Jordan in the not-so-distant past? Yet there were no threads- ONBLY Israel, AT WAR WITH THE PALESTINIANS, is held to account.

I have put forward the idea that Israel should treat Palestinians JUST as Arab nations treat EITHER Jews or Palestinians- but I have never seen any agreement with that- since it would up the killing by several orders of magnitude over the present amount ( which, IMHO, is too many).

As for the embargo,explosives can be made from gelatin, or margerine, and piano wire is a favorite weapon for killing.

IF the need for humanitarian supplies was real, why do the Palestinians keep smuggling in WEAPONS ( justifying the embargo) through those tunnels, instead of food or medicines? I guess you think Palestinians are really stupid- I think they know exactly what they want to bring in, and the blockade is Israel's only way to even slow it down.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 10:15 AM

"I think he might have a problem with that many new ones, which could be in here."

Why not start a thread on ONE subject that you find interesting and think important.

Starting a new thread for each of the links rovided in this thread would amount to the same thing as lumping them all in here.

It would be impossible to devote any meaningfull attention to all those subhects at the same time.

However, if there is something happening somewhere that you find relevant to you andd that upsets you and you want to discuss it, go ahead.



Bruce.

Bobads insinuation, and the premiss of this thread, is this.

1. If you don't post atrocities to this thread, but do post responses to the Israel thread, then that makes you an antii semite as you are therefore only interested in Bashing Israel.

2. Equally, if you can't post to this thread without refering to Israel then that makes you an anti semite.

3. if you don't express the same indignation and horror about the atrocities posted in this thread as you do in the Israel thread, then it can only be because you hate Israel.


Bruce - surely you can see through this.


The whole thread is set up with a bias from moment one.

1. It tries to blackmail catters into agreeing with Bobad, otherwise they label themselves anti semites.

2. It mentions Israel explicitly, yet bans contributors from commenting on that, whch is a mendacious challenge.

3. It is deliberately judged to provoke - not just by implying a right to censor, control and judge what people say and post, but by beginning with a link to a deliberately controversial video - so controversial that within half an hour of Bobad posting the link, youtube had banned it for terms of violation abuse.

So much for his impartial posturing.

Its like a sleazy guy saying to a girl "if you don't sleep with me it means you don't love me"

It's cheap playground emotional blackmail and Bobad has tarred his reputation badly by posting it.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 09:57 AM

"If you were so upset about the killings in Kyrgystan that you felt we should discuss them, you waould have started a thread on that subject so they could actually be discussed."

Check with Joe Offer about openingthreads on every atrocity- I think he might have a problem with that many new ones, which could be in here.



Quote ( which you ignored) is from the original post that started this thread:

"To test this premise I am inviting Mudcatters to post examples of atrocities committed
by countries and organisations other than Israel so that they can be discussed,
analysed and subjected to our collective righteous indignation.

The posting activity to this thread vis a vis the Israeli atrocity thread should be a
good indicator of the accuracy of the premise."




I fail to see any posts that would weaken his premise.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 09:41 AM

Bruce

The founder of this thread, Bobad, created this thread to make a point.

He posted atrocities to this thread, not because any of them were things that he found shocking, but because they were convenient as vehicles by which he could make his point.

You now appear to be doing the same thing.


If you were so upset about the killings in Kyrgystan that you felt we should discuss them, you waould have started a thread on that subject so they could actually be discussed.

In reality, you have buried this report in a thread so full of video clips and stories that noone could possibly know what event to devote their attention to.

In addition, you have not then followed through on the discussion you allege you want to discuss.

Instead, you have moved straight on to the next story and left those 100-200 dead behind - forgotten and irrelevant to your life.

You only posted it in response to Bobads insinuation that the mudcat must be full of anti-semites or they would not devote so much attention to American, British and Israeli human rights abuses.

That is the thinly veiled subtext of this thread.

To pretend that this thread is any more than a cheap stunt is rubbish.


Try responding to my earlier posts in this thread.

Its a THREAD remember?

are you able to engage in discussion?

then try.

Go back to an eaarlier post and engage with it.

to make sure you have an understanding of context, start with the first one and go through them one at a time.

Then try to engage honestly.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Roberto
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 09:19 AM

Little Hawk writes: "As for Israel, Israel is totally able to defend itself. That has been demonstrated beyond any shadow of doubt. They are not the victim in the Middle East, they are the one holding a whip and a club in their hands. They have at least a couple of hundred nuclear weapons, and they also have conventional military superiority over all their neighbours in that region."

I used to think something like that years ago. I'm not sure today. If there won't be any agreement, in the long term I think Israel's existence can't be taken for granted. If there'll ever be an agreement, Israel will have to retreat from a number of its colonies and to reintroduce the land for peace bargain. Difficult, but not impossible. I wonder whether Israel's counterpart would accept the two states solution in the right terms T. L. Friedman described it in an article on The New York Times some years ago (that I've lost and would like to find out), when he wrote something like that: one state each, not one and a half. It means, not Israel plus the colonies, nor Palestina plus the Palestinian refugees in Israel instead in the Palestinian state. Another possible solution, in my opinion, is that the Arab state be formed by the new Palestinian part (West Bank, Gaza etc) united with Jordan: it could be interesting for both Jordan and the Palestinians. Anyway, these are only opinions and wishes. The question is whether the land for peace bargain and the mutual recognition will ever be possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Emma B
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:33 AM

The increasing conflict in Kyrgyzstan has been reported in the news since it errupted

As a background -

"Kyrgyz make up nearly 70% of the population, Uzbeks account for about 15% and are concentrated in the Ferghana Valley in the south
Osh, the country's second city, is home to a large ethnic Uzbek community
There has been tension in the south between the two ethnic groups over land and housing
In 1990, hundreds were killed in Osh in clashes between Kyrgyz and ethnic Uzbeks"

I have not seen any authoritative reports about what sparked the latest unrest but there is no doubt, according to the Red Cross that it is reaching a humanitarian crisis as the three days of violence between Kyrgyz and Uzbek groups in the city of Osh and surrounding areas have left more than 100 people dead and forced hundreds of thousands to flee into neighbouring Uzbekistan to escape the fighting, according to media reports

The EU's crisis response commissioner Kristalina Georgieva said over the weekend "We have to be ready to react to the humanitarian situation that may arise,"
However, the limited legitimacy of the current interim government is also complicating matters, and may make it harder for the EU to provide medium-to-long-term help, said another EU employee.

Kyrgyzstan's President Kurmanbek Bakiyev was ousted in April and now lives in Belarus where he fled with his family after violent clashes between government forces and protesters on 7 April.

He has denied interim government accusations that he is involved in the unrest in order to derail a 27 June constitutional referendum and elections scheduled for October

Washington uses the base about 300km (190 miles) from Osh for US operations in Afghanistan.

Some eye witness reports

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:28 AM

Srebrenica massacre: Close to 8,000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys were believed massacred.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Editorial/1187111.html

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:25 AM

Last Wednesday: (reported Thursday)

" Wedding attack was carried out by suicide bomber

A bombing at a wedding ceremony in Afghanistan's Kandahar province was carried out by a suicide bomber wearing an explosives-laden vest, the interior ministry said Thursday.

The explosion Wednesday in the village of Nagaan killed 40 people and wounded 74 others, the interior ministry said.

The Taliban said it was not responsible for the attack.

The International Security Assistance Force confirmed the bombing but did not provide a casualty count.

"This ruthless violence brought to the Afghan people at what should have been a time for celebration demonstrates the Taliban's sickening and indiscriminate tactics to try to intimidate the citizens of Afghanistan," said Lt. Gen. Nick Parker, Deputy Commander, International Security Assistance Force on Thursday.

The village is about 30 kilometers (19 miles) from the city of Kandahar.

The explosion came during the wedding dinner, between 9:30 and 10 p.m., striking the area where the men and boys were dining separately from the women.

All the casualties were men or boys, village officials said."

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:21 AM

hey Loxie,

"To test this premise I am inviting Mudcatters to post examples of atrocities committed
by countries and organisations other than Israel so that they can be discussed,
analysed and subjected to our collective righteous indignation.

The posting activity to this thread vis a vis the Israeli atrocity thread should be a
good indicator of the accuracy of the premise."

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:20 AM

"June 11th, 2010
08:28 AM ET

Permalink 9 killed as bus hits mine

An explosion in southern Afghanistan killed nine civilians and wounded eight others Friday, officials said. The victims were traveling in a mini bus on the Kandahar-Herat highway when the vehicle was struck by a road mine, said Kandahar governor's spokesman Zalmai Ayoubi. The victims comprised of four women, three children and two men, Ayoubi said."



And they didn't even have any steel bars or kitchen knives!

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:18 AM

Baghdad blast, gunfire kill 15By the CNN Wire Staff
June 13, 2010 11:30 a.m. EDT

STORY HIGHLIGHTS
NEW: 15 killed, 45 wounded in Baghdad blast, ensuing gunfire
Blast outside of country's central bank
Clashes ongoing between security forces and bank robbers
Power generator for bank caught fire

(CNN) -- At least 15 people were killed and 45 others wounded in a bombing and gunfire near Iraq's central bank in the capital on Sunday, according to the Interior Ministry.

After the initial blast, clashes broke out between security forces and armed men trying to rob the bank, the official said.

There were conflicting reports about what the blast was, which hit at around 3 p.m. (8 a.m. ET). One Interior Ministry official said at least three roadside bombs exploded outside the bank, while another official said it was a suicide bomber. The spokesman for the Baghdad military command, Maj. Gen. Qassi, al-Moussawi, told state television that it was one roadside bomb.

The casualties figures offered by the Interior Ministry only include civilians and security forces.

The power generator for the bank caught fire and the burning fuel caused a large black plume of smoke seen over the capital, the first Interior Ministry official said.The bank is located in central Baghdad's Rasheed street.

The bombing comes amid political uncertainty, a day before Iraq's parliament is set to convene for it's first session three months after national elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:16 AM

Afghan schoolgirls hospitalized for possible poisoningBy the CNN Wire Staff
June 13, 2010 7:09 a.m. EDT

STORY HIGHLIGHTS
60 schoolgirls aged 9-14 suffer apparent poison attack
Most suffered minor reactions
Incident is third suspected poisoning of girls in a week
Taliban banned girls from school when they ruled Afghanistan

Kabul, Afghanistan -- About 60 schoolgirls in Afghanistan's Balkh province appear to have been poisoned and required hospitalization, the Ministry of Health said Sunday.

The victims ranged in age from 9 to 14. Most suffered minor reactions, ministry spokesman Sakhi Kargan told CNN.

It's at least the third suspected poisoning of girls attending schools in Afghanistan this week.

Nearly 90 people were poisoned in attacks on three schools in April. There have been no known deaths to date in any of the attacks.

The Taliban banned girls from going to school when they ruled Afghanistan from 1996 to 2001.

Since girls' schools began reopening after the Taliban were overthrown, facilities, female students and teachers have been the victims of attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:12 AM

Loxie,

"I realized that you don't give a shit about those dead people, you were only posting the news so that you culd prove an unrelated point."

1. the point is related - in fact, it is the primary cause of this thread.

2. YOU don't know what I give, about this or any other topic- that would require you to discuss things, rather thanmake pronouncements of other's thoughts. I was unable to post on Friday, because I was at work and there were other priorities. When I looked this morning, I saw NOTHING on Mudcat about it ( expecting at least a statement it was all the US's fault.

As I said, those here that think 9 dead ( by Israelis ) are an atrocity don't even notice 100- 200 dead when they are killed by non-Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:05 AM

"But there are NO atrocities here. just look the other way and ignore the bodies.

( This started Friday, before I left work- and I waited to see if those who claim to be concerned about human rights would even notice.)"


I was composing a respnse n my head as I read your first post, but then you posted again and I realized that you don't give a shit about those dead people, you were only posting the news so that you culd prove an unrelated point.


Nonetheless, I will proceed with my original thought which was that Russia, having previously been the leading power of 'the eastern bloc' has very much become a western country in both style and substance.

I have been payng some attention to the unfolding crisis in Kyrgyzstan and have pondered what role the USA has played in it.

It seems that there are those who want the Yankees out, and those who want them to stay.

Sounds familiar doesn't it.

And guess what - those who want them out are pretty angry and violence is flaring up.

The Americans must wear fiery boots.

Everywhere they get a foothold seems to go up in flames.


In addition, in the old days, the Russians were masters of the Eastern Bloc.

Nowadays they are very much a western power, in style, substance and allegiance.

They demonize the same enemies as us (moslems) with our support, but when they come up against enemies we like (Georgians) they are put in their place in no uncertain terms.

I have a funny feeling Brucie that if we tookj a close look at the crisis in Kyrgyzstan we would find that the best solution would be for the Americans to fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 06:43 AM

For those who can't bother to read the entire article,

"The official death toll from the clashes that began last week reached 117, with 1,500 injured, the Health Ministry of the beleaguered former Soviet country, which hosts U.S. and Russian military bases, announced early Monday.

But an Uzbek leader claimed that 200 Uzbeks have already been buried, and the International Committee of the Red Cross has said its delegates witnessed about 100 bodies being buried in just one cemetery."




But there are NO atrocities here. just look the other way and ignore the bodies.

( This started Friday, before I left work- and I waited to see if those who claim to be concerned about human rights would even notice.)

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 06:38 AM

"Fresh ethnic violence erupts in Kyrgyzstan
         

Sasha Merkushev, Associated Press Writer – 18 mins ago


OSH, Kyrgyzstan – Thousands of Uzbeks fleeing southern Kyrgyzstan amassed at the border Monday, as the deadliest ethnic violence in decades left entire city blocks burned to the ground and scores of people dead.

The official death toll from the clashes that began last week reached 117, with 1,500 injured, the Health Ministry of the beleaguered former Soviet country, which hosts U.S. and Russian military bases, announced early Monday.

But an Uzbek leader claimed that 200 Uzbeks have already been buried, and the International Committee of the Red Cross has said its delegates witnessed about 100 bodies being buried in just one cemetery.

Jallahitdin Jalilatdinov, who heads the Uzbek National Center, also told The Associated Press on Monday that at least 100,000 had fled for the border and were awaiting entry into Uzbekistan. An Associated Press reporter saw at least hundreds of Uzbek refugees stuck at a border crossing near Jalal-Abad in no-man's-land between the boundaries.

The interim government, which took over after Kurmanbek Bakiyev was ousted by a public revolt in April, has been unable to stop the violence and accused Bakiyev's family of instigating it. Uzbeks have backed the interim government, while many Kyrgyz in the south have supported the toppled president.

New fires raged Monday across Osh — the country's second-largest city, on the border with Uzbekistan, where food and water were becoming scarce. Armed looters smashed stores, stealing everything from televisions to food.

In the mainly Uzbek district of Aravanskoe, an area formerly brimming with shops and restaurants, entire streets have been burned to the ground. In one still smoldering building, an Associated Press photographer saw the charred bodies of three people burned to death.

Despite military patrols, sporadic gunfire could be heard across the city. It was unclear who was shooting.

No police could be seen on the streets, though authorities insisted some of the improvised checkpoints dotted around the city of 250,000 were theirs.

Cars stolen from ethnic Uzbeks raced around the city, most crowded with young Kyrgyz wielding sharpened sticks, axes and metal rods.

In some parts of Osh, Kyrgyz residents protected homes housing both Kyrgyz and Uzbeks.

In another city beset by violence, Jalal-Abad, about 25 miles (40 kilometers) away, armed Kyrgyz amassed at the central square. Their goal was to travel to the nearby Uzbek settlement of Suzak in search of an Uzbek community leader they blame for starting the trouble.

As the clashes continued, desperately needed aid began trickling into the south. Several planes arrived at Osh airport loaded with tons of urgently needed medical supplies from the World Health Organization. Trucks carried the supplies into the city center accompanied by tank and trailed by an armored personnel carrier.

Flights were canceled to Osh and Jalal-Abad, though at least one regularly scheduled flight landed in the city, carrying acting deputy Prime Minister Omurbek Tekebayev.

The Uzbek border is just 3 miles (5 kilometers) from Osh. Uzbek refugees were mostly elderly people, women and children, with younger men staying behind to defend their property. Some were fired on as they fled.

The United States, Russia and the U.N. chief all expressed alarm about the scale of the violence and discussed how to help the refugees. The U.S. and Russia both have military bases in northern Kyrgyzstan, away from the rioting. Russia sent in an extra battalion to protect its air base.

The U.S. Manas air base in Bishkek is a crucial supply hub for the coalition fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan. Manas was working with the U.S. State Department and interim government to help deliver food and medical supplies, said Air Force Maj. John A. Elolf, a spokesman at the base.

Uzbeks make up 15 percent of Kygryzstan's 5 million people, but in the south their numbers rival ethnic Kyrgyz. The fertile Ferghana Valley where Osh and Jalal-Abad are located once belonged to a single feudal lord, but it was split by Soviet dictator Josef Stalin among Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan, rekindling old rivalries.

From his self-imposed exile in Belarus, Bakiyev denied any role in the violence and blamed interim authorities for failing to protect the people.

Interim President Roza Otunbayeva's government had hoped to seal its political and democratic credentials in a referendum to approve a new constitution on June 27, but the likelihood of that vote taking place now looks slim.

The question of sending in foreign peacekeepers is yet to be formally raised in Moscow: A man who answered the telephone at the Russian-led Collective Security Treaty Organization said the issue would be discussed on Monday, but his superior later said it remained unclear whether the meeting would go ahead.

In 1990, hundreds were killed in a land dispute between Kyrgyz and Uzbeks in Osh, and only quick deployment of Soviet troops quelled the fighting. With no Russian troops in sight this time, the interim government announced a partial mobilization of military reservists up to 50 years old.

"No one is rushing to help us, so we need to establish order ourselves," said Talaaibek Adibayev, a 39-year-old army veteran who showed up at Bishkek's military conscription office.

The fertile Ferghana Valley where Osh and Jalal-Abad are located once belonged to a single feudal lord, but it was split by Soviet dictator Josef Stalin among Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan. The Stalinist borders rekindled old rivalries and fomented ethnic tensions. "

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:13 AM

It's like arguing whether England should remain an [i]English[/i] country, by which we mean populated by people whose near-distant ancestors were born in England, not in Pakistan or continental Europe or the Middle East. It's racism no matter how you slice it. In Britain it's called the BNP and everybody (except themselves) realize it's racist bullshit. There's no difference between "England for the English" and "Israel for the Jews." There's no reason any democracy should remain an X-majority state for any ethnic, racial, or religious value of X. To the extent that you're trying to do that, it's not a democracy, no matter what your system of government looks like.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 12:58 AM

John, this thread is not about Israel. It's supposed to be about everyone except Israel. The other thread is about Israel. And it's not so much an "Israel bashing thread" as it is a "telling the truth about Israel thread". It's just that some people find the truth to be rather inconvenient, so they don't want anyone to be telling it.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 11:57 PM

Several folks here and at the other Israel bashing thread have opined that Israel is a theocracy. While what Israel is or is not may be debated, it certainly is not a theocracy under any legitimate use of that term, or as Roberto put it earlier, "...If words and terms we use keep any meaning."

The following article or essay may explain the type of governance Israel has, which is not far different from that of the US or UK. While I normally eschew the use of cut and paste, I have made an exception in this case.

                        ------------------------

"Should Israel Be a Jewish State?"
Mitchell G. Bard

Myth: "Israel is a theocracy and should not be a Jewish State."

Fact:

It often makes people uncomfortable to refer to Israel as "the Jewish State" because it suggests a theocracy and, therefore, the demise of Israel as a Jewish state is viewed by some people (even in Israel) as a positive development. Israel is not a theocracy; however, it is governed by the rule of law as drafted by a democratically elected parliament. It is informed by Jewish values and adheres to many Jewish religious customs (such as holidays), but this is similar to the United States and other nations that are shaped by the Judeo-Christian heritage and also have expressly religious elements (e.g., church-state separation in the U.S. does not preclude the recognition of Christmas as a holiday).

Israel has no state religion, and all faiths enjoy freedom of worship, yet it is attacked for its Jewish character, whereas the Arab states that all have Islam as their official religion are regarded as legitimate.

The Jewish people are a nation with a shared origin, religion, culture, language, and history. And why shouldn't the Jewish people have a state? No one suggests that Arabs are not entitled to a nation (and they have not one, but twenty-one [eight of which operate under Islamic or Sharia Law /JotSC]) of their own or Swedes or Germans, or that Catholics are not entitled to a state (Vatican City) headed by a theocrat (the Pope). To suggest that Zionism, the nationalist movement of the Jewish people, is the only form of nationalism that is illegitimate is pure bigotry. It is especially ironic that the Jewish nation should be challenged given that Jewish statehood preceded the emergence of most modern nation-states by thousands of years.

It is also not unusual that one community should be the majority within a nation and seek to maintain that status. In fact, this is true in nearly every country in the world. Moreover, societies usually reflect the cultural identity of the majority. India and Pakistan were established at the same time as Israel through a violent partition, but no one believes these nations are illegitimate because one is predominantly Hindu and the other has a Muslim majority, or that these nations shouldn't be influenced by those communities (e.g., that cows in India should not be treated as sacred).

In the United States, a vigorous debate persists over the boundaries between church and state. Similar discussions regarding "synagogue and state" are ongoing in Israel, with philosophical disagreements over whether Israel can be a Jewish and a democratic state, and practical arguments over Sabbath observance, marriage and divorce laws, and budgets for religious institutions. Nevertheless, most Jews take for granted that Israel is, and must remain, a Jewish state. Arab citizens also understand that Israel is a Jewish state and, while they might prefer that it was not, they have still chosen to live there (nothing prevents Arabs from moving to any of the 180-odd non-Jewish states in the world). Both Jews and Arabs realize that if Jews cease to be a majority in Israel, Israel will no longer have a Jewish character or serve as a haven for persecuted Jews, and that is one of the elements underlying peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians.

www.jewishfederations.org/page.aspx?id=55895

                         --------------------

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 06:30 PM

Israel is not a theocracy.

Say what? Then Iran and the Taliban areas aren't as well, I suppose?

there's also a grey cat next door who keeps killing my chipmunks

Not that situation isn't complex or insoluble - easily solved with a .22 or a small-gauge shotgum.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 06:28 PM

Oh, and your ad-hominem observations have been duly noted.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 05:01 PM

So long Don, thanks for dropping in.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 04:13 PM

""Another difference is that some atrosities seem to weigh more on people`s minds than others. Strange, that.""

I expect that fuzzy thinking from Bobad, he's an expert, and he has an axe to grind in playing down the Israeli government's abysmal treatment of its neighbours.

But you are usually more analytical in your thought processes.

Stuff happens, and when it does, it occupies our minds for a time which may vary from story to story, depending largely upon how much we are affected (shocked, amused, bored etc. etc.)

It happens with nearly every major news event, and for that time it becomes the focus of discussion, and tends to place older or less immediate items on the back burner.

That doesn't mean that we are less exercised by those events, but simply that our focus is temporarily removed from them.

So, if I want you to stop discussing an event in my neck of the woods, what better way than to point up all the distractions in order to divert your attention elsewhere.

The sheer illogic, in the middle of discussion of the rights and wrongs of acts of piracy and murder in international waters, of asking for opinions regarding non related, and in many cases dissimilar events, is astonishing.

It is playground politics. "It's not my fault Miss, 'cos Tommy did it first, and hedid it much worse than me".

It is disingenuous, amd irrelevant to the discussion, but of course that doesn't matter, if it achieves the objective of distracting from the present discussion.

It is doubly reprehensible, as the by product is the labelling of the "opposition", as being intolerant of Jews, and as being apologists for the perpetrators of other crimes.

That is the purpose for which this thread was started, and the reason why I now leave, never to return.

Enjoy
Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 02:20 PM

Roberto, you are quite wrong. I am being totally responsible. It's the people who are, like you, trying to sweep the much more numerous problems being created by the US and Israel under a rug, while trying to divert attention to the far fewer problems being created by other countries, who are being irresponsible. And hypocritical, also. And, I might add, provincial. Provincial, because it's clearly not out of concern for anyone's suffering that you and those who argue like you are doing this. It is an effort to silence those who are highlighting problems that you would prefer to remain hidden, because it causes problems for those with whom you identify when these problems are brought to light.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 02:15 PM

Well, naturally their targets think they are the biggest problem too, Roberto. Why wouldn't they think so? That doesn't mean it isn't true. Somebody always gets to be an empire's target. That somebody may not be the nicest regime either...but if they are a target, they know it.

What Carol means, I think, by "I am responsible for the USA and Israel" is this: she lives in the place where the imperial policy comes from. It's her home. One should confront evil at home first, before concerning oneself with evil in distant lands, because if you cannot first put an end to evil in your own home, you have no business dealing with evil somewhere else.

I also live in the place where the imperial policy comes from, because I live in Canada, a country that is part of the Anglo-Israeli alliance. That's why I feel the way I do about it. My own country is backing that imperial policy, and I don't agree with that.

The oil that is in the Middle East and the Caspian areas should benefit the people of those areas and should be totally under their control, and our soldiers should not be sent to invade foreign lands (such as Iraq and Afghanistan) that present no military threat at all to our existence.

As for Israel, Israel is totally able to defend itself. That has been demonstrated beyond any shadow of doubt. They are not the victim in the Middle East, they are the one holding a whip and a club in their hands. They have at least a couple of hundred nuclear weapons, and they also have conventional military superiority over all their neighbours in that region.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Roberto
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 02:14 PM

Jim Carroll writes: "Roberto, then stop hiding behind the suggestion that any of the responses to Israel's behaviour have anything whatever to do with anti-Semitism in any form."

Would you please show me where I did that?

I've written something about anti-semitism in these two threads on Israel, Gaza etc in two circumstances: first, when I said that Angela Lano, the Italian activist on board the flotilla, is closely linked to anti-semite characters, which I think I've proven. Second, when I replied to Don(Wyziwyg)T about the meaning of anti-semitism, a term that was born to mean anti-judaism, not, as Don(Wyziwyg)T claimed, both hatred against Hebrews and Arabs: mine is not an opinion, but an historical fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Roberto
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:58 PM

CarolC, you say that you feel responsible for the US and Israel, and that's why you concentrate your attention most of all on them. Ok, your problem. Other thing is to judge the US and Israel the two biggest problems and cause of problems in the world: here is a matter of political and historical analysis, that nothing has to do with how your government spends your taxes and how you feel responsible etc. This assessment has to have a universal merit, and every person in the world can participate and discuss what is best and what is worst. And this is true now more than some years ago, because we're more than ever all linked together. When you say "the US and Israel, they are the two biggest problems" you say something that I consider awfully stupid. And as I told you before, you share this opinion with Khomeiny and friends. Here you cease to be responsible and become irresponsible.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:56 PM

That pretty much sums it up, LH.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:49 PM

You simply cannot imagine how hard it was for me to resist making the 100th post to this thread! I am a paragon of self-control. ;-)

Roberto, I'm from Canada, and I agree with CarolC on this. I also think that the USA and Israel presently cause more trouble to other nations than any other 2 nations I can think of. However, it's a bit more complex than that. What you really have is an unofficial alliance of the primary English-speaking nations (USA, UK, Canada, Australia) and Israel. They work together toward common geopolitical objectives, and those objectives are, I think, as follows:

1. control the Middle East and Caspian regions
2. thereby control the oil in those regions
3. thereby put Russia and China in a weak position
4. thereby dominate the world, and...
5. hopefully push Russia and China into opposing each other by causing China to look elsewhere for its energy supplies...into Russian territory

It's a very large political game, and it's being played out in a totally ruthless manner. It has nothing to do with democracy, freedom or any other idealistic thing like that, it has to do with naked power, oil, and survival.

The so-called War on Terror serves the purposes of that overall strategic plan, and the Muslim nations are pawns to be moved around and/or sacrificed.

Ultimately, the game has to do with facing off against the Russians and the Chinese.

In this game it is the USA and Israel which commit the largest number of aggressive and destructive acts, and which kill the most people. That's because they are the best armed, and in Israel's case, it's because they are strategically positioned in the contested region, close to the sources of oil.

It's standard imperial politics. If some other nation was a greater military power than the USA, they would probably be doing something quite similar, so it isn't that the USA is inherently more evil than other nations....it's because they USA is presently the leading military power...so they CAN dow what they do, and get away with it. Others cannot. (except for Israel...which has USA backing)

As the British once dominated the world (after the fall of Napoleon in 1815), the USA now dominates the world, and it's playing imperial games because it can.

All empires eventually fail, often not long after they have reached their point of greatest expansion. Why? Because they grow too large to manage efficiently, and they acquire too many potential enemies. They collapse under their own weight. I think America is getting very close to reaching that point. In fact, I think the collapse is under way. It's a dangerous point when that process begins, because it usually provokes more military conflicts.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:46 PM

Roberto
Then stop hiding behind the suggestion that any of the responses to Israel's behaviour have anything whatever to do with anti-Semitism in any form.
During my lifetime Nazi concentration camps were in full swing in their task of exterminating Jews, I was born into an anti-Fascist household and was brought up to oppose any form of racism and bigotry.
My father fought Fascism in Spain, was wounded and taken prisoner of war, and came home to a police record as a "premature anti-Fascist". He was also excommunicated from his religion and blacklisted from his work for having done so. Don't you dare describe me or anybody here an anti Semite unless you can back it up with examples.
I have seen the practice of 'crying wolf' - claiming racism or bigotry when none is present - do a great deal of damage to the fight against Fascism, racism and bigotry.
If you can show any examples of anti-Semitism on this thread please do so. If you are using the claim to defend the behaviour of Israel - shame on you.
If opposing Israel's policy of expansionism and oppression is anti-Semitic, then I have a large number of Jewish friends who can be described thus.
I respect your knowledge and am grateful for the help you gave me, but that has nothing whatever to do with this discussion.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:45 PM

The young man who was tortured to death in Egypt (I posted an article about him earlier), and the use of torture generally by the government of Egypt is being protested on the streets of Egypt right now. It is apparently a large and very vigorous protest that according to one source of mine, is now including police fighting against police, and also involves people tearing down Mubarak's pictures all over the place. Here is some video from that. From what I have been able to discern, they are trying to get Mubarak removed from power...

http://bambuser.com/channel/RamyRaoof/broadcast/827016

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:35 PM

CarolC. Maybe I've been inaccurate summing up your thought, but not a liar. If we were to discuss in Italian, I'd be more accurate and make less mistakes.

Ok. I accept this characterization of your behavior.


Ok, you say that USA and Israel are the two biggest problems, and I think you're wrong, blind and, although you write from the USA, provincial.

That's really quite funny. Because I am concerned with the welfare of people in other countries who are suffering because of atrocities being committed by my government and the government of another country whose atrocities are enabled by my government and my tax dollars, you are telling me that I am provincial. I think you're right about your command of English hampering your ability to discuss this subject easily here in this thread. You clearly don't understand what the word "provincial" means.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Roberto
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:24 PM

CarolC. Maybe I've been inaccurate summing up your thought, but not a liar. If we were to discuss in Italian, I'd be more accurate and make less mistakes. Ok, you say that USA and Israel are the two biggest problems, and I think you're wrong, blind and, although you write from the USA, provincial.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM

I just want to mention in passing that my dog has committed a long series of atrocities, and he exhibits no remorse. For some reason it has not reached the attention of the world media, but I assure you that he leads the pack when it comes to truly atrocious behaviour. ;-)

And there's also a grey cat next door who keeps killing my chipmunks.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:19 PM

Also, Roberto, I consider it hypocritical to be pointing fingers at others while ignoring the things for which one bears responsibility oneself. The two countries for which I am responsible are the US and Israel. So even beyond the fact that these two countries are responsible for the majority of problems in the world, it would be hypocritical for me to be focusing my attention on problems caused by other countries while the two countries for which I am responsible are causing problems themselves, especially if, like some of the people in this thread, I was ignoring the problems being caused by the countries for which I am responsible.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:09 PM

No, Roberto. You said that I consider the problems in other parts of the world to be minor. I do not consider them to be at all minor. So what you said is a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Roberto
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:07 PM

Carol, I didn't lie (too often you accuse people of telling lies), and you've just confirmed your opinion (USA and Israel being the two major problems in the world), that I don't share.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:02 PM

while CarolC, to name a new friend I've met in these political threads, states that every other problem in the world is a minor one

You shouldn't lie about people, Roberto.

The other problems aren't minor ones. They're definitely not minor. It's just that the majority of the problems in the world are caused by the US and Israel, which is why they are the two biggest problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 12:59 PM

I fail to see how the sites you gave present an unbiased viewpoint- but thanks for the info.

Please tell me what is any more biased about the letter to Hillary Clinton from the South Korean inspector than the rest of the reports from inspectors.

And on your second point, whenever we seek to "liberate" a people from their government, we always somehow seem to make life worse for them rather than better.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Roberto
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 11:18 AM

Jim Carroll. I didn't start this thread. I agree that the theme of the thread is closely linked to the thread on the Gaza flotilla. It is a reaction, I think, to the lack of proportion that some people show (you among them, in my opinion) when they deal with Israel, an attitude that I consider an indication of a cognitive trouble. This thread, I think, asks to examine what else wouldn't work in the world if Israel wouldn't exist: Ok, says this thread, we have different ideas on Israel. Let's see if we agree on what are the other problems. And the result is some of you don't even participate to the game: you replied to my post containing the Freedom House's list of the worst states in the world regarding human rights asking me a sort of password before going on (do you believe that other countries carrying out atrocities excuses those by Israel - otherwise, what's your point?), while CarolC, to name a new friend I've met in these political threads, states that every other problem in the world is a minor one ("The United States is the biggest problem. Israel is second"). To focus only on the Western Countries could have been Ok in the past, now we are in a brave new world, we must keep criticizing our societies, but be careful not to join out voices with the worst of the rest of the world, that is every day more prominent, starting with China, and where most battles for democracy, freedom, woman condition, haven't started yet.

I've never posted anything in the lower section of the Mudcat before these two threads. The result of this experience is I've lost time and peace and exposed to risk acquaintances I hold in esteem. Before the next quarrel, our attitudes being so far-off, thanks a lot for Carolyne Hughes' Barbara Allen.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 10:41 AM

I think it should be stated that the USA still has over 30,000 soldiers under arms on the DMZ.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Roberto
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 10:14 AM

Israel is not a theocracy. If words and terms we use keep any meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 09:23 AM

Query: Why are theocracies like Iran & the Taliban universally condemned while the theocracy that is Israel universally praised?

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 08:53 AM

Well, you can't expect any complaints- the FIRST year of the Islamic Republic ( Iran) saw more Iranian people killed by the government than the number killed during the ENTIRE reign of the "evil, murdering" Shah. But they disagreed with the Mullahs, so that was OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 08:41 AM

One year later, Iranians killed by the Ayatollahs ask from their graves, "Where is our Flotilla?"

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 08:35 AM

CarolC

I fail to see how the sites you gave present an unbiased viewpoint- but thanks for the info.

IMO, the NK use violent action all the time, to push for INTERNAL control. How else can they keep a starving population under control, without offering change?