Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: r.padgett
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 03:39 AM

Believe it or not Walter Greaves story appears in a Memories of Barnsley publication!

I did known Walter and Bill but I dont remember Tom Daniel ( no "s" I think)personally

Dorothy Fawthrop used to dance with Tom Owen of Barnsley and her mum said in my prescence that she and Tom Daniel had (re) constructed and remembered Poverty Knocks [collected by AL Lloyd] together

Dancing at Ceilds/Barndances at Heckmondwike/Batley and Wakefield afforded the chance to sing too.

John Browell leads the Christmas sings at the Wickham and Saw nr Cleckheaton each year with often, Dave Mallinson, Roy Atkinson, Ron Darnbrough, The Twentymens, NOrrie and Brenda Spence, Trevor Charnock being the current main West Riding old folkies. Mick Haywood now being in Whitby for some years

Ray

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 09:20 AM

Not exactly a club....in the mid-70s Pete & Chris Coe organized some cracking sessions in The Blue Ball, above Rishworth, as well as great knees-ups in Ripponden ( Town Hall?)

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: GloriaJ
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 10:21 AM

Its interesting to hear about Walter Greaves.I knew him a little, but didnt know about his cycling exploits.He became a blacksmith near Skipton. He certainly looked the part of the trad folksinger - grey beard and all - but I'm sorry to say I felt at the time, as others did,that he opportunistically found a role ready waiting for him and slipped into it,after stumbling across the vibrant leeds folk scene.Desperate to get involved, he got hold of the book Marrowbones which everyone was using in the 70s, and learned some songs from it.I think he enjoyed a kind of minor celebrity,and may even have been booked at C Sharp House by the EFDSS - but he wasnt much of a singer.I bet inwardly he was astonished that people had so easily bought into the myth they themselves had created - although to be fair I never heard him claim to be a trad singer.It was both amusing and irritating to see how quickly he set himself up as an authority on traditional unaccompanied singing.I know this sounds a bit critical - I liked him as a person, and he was a character.
Someone perhaps more worthy of respect as a mainstay of the yorkshire folk scene is Geoff Wood - still around, at the age of about 90, and still singing - I saw him a few weeks ago at the Grove.Also collector of some classic songs e.g. The Lish Young Buy-A-Broom.

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 05:30 AM

I well remember the Grass Roots, it moved location a few times, The Royal Oak, Plummet Line, Upper George and the Crown in Horton Street, the Royal Oak was by far the best venue but as always on changing ownership, the new landlord didn't want a folk club.

Richard Collins went to Australia [ same time as a few more, Derek Scott and Jacquie Fraser ] last I heard he was working as a TV producer.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: GUEST,Frances W. ( Lord )
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 06:42 PM

I remember spending great nights at The Grass Roots club in halifax. Remember Richard Collins? Vivid memories of the crowded Fleece in Addingham. As for the Jovial Crew - who could forget them? Happy days!

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: GUEST,Guest Betsy
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 04:30 AM

Gail & Steve ......The Adelphi was in Leeds - run by Bob Spray.

In Hull there was also the Haworth arms.

Has anyone mentioned South Cave ?

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: GUEST,Mrs. Holroyd
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 07:12 PM

DEwsbury Folk began on Tuesdays in the late 50's, the first venue being above a Chinese Restaurant in Ravensthorpe (part of Dewsbury) It was run mainly by Keith Pearson and Phil (second name excapes me) and moved to the Station near the market in the early 60's which was when I first started going. Dave Burland, Bill Price, Tommy Daniels, John and Hazel Browell Dorothy Fawthrop and her mother Kate,were amongst the regulars, and you were considered to be "in" if you got a seat near the fire. Everybody paid entrance fee of 1 shilling (later raised to 1.6d)and guests were booked when funds allowed. In the early 70's I took over the running of the club and we moved up to the Shoulder of Mutton on Halifax Road. We had frequent bus trips out to other clubs, one in particular was Bubwith Club, when the bus failed to collect us at midnight and Bill Price was found curled up with the goats! The club also began having monthly ceilidhs at the rugby club and, due to a band giving backword at short notice, a band was quickly put together from the club members to fill the gap. John Browell suggested that it should be called Broomfield Wager Band, as we practised at Broomfield House and he would wager a quid that we didn't get through the evening without making a b****r of it. The club, along with the Batley Club, organised a memorial concert for Tommy Daniels in l970, and this was so successful that the following year saw the First West Riding Festival of Folk held in Dewsbury Town Hall. This Festival ran for 7 or 8 years, moving around the Heavy Woollen District to Cleckheaton, Batley, Ossett. It certainly was one of the first clubs in Yorkshire

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 11:41 AM

A tribute to the late Jon Rennard, to mark the 40th anniversary of his death on 29th July 2011.

Jon Rennard Tribute & Leeds Memories

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: GUEST,Dave G
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 04:40 PM

Many thanks for that Good Soldier. Walter was indeed a very extraordinary man. I believe (it is alleged) that he was responsible for painting many of the left wing slogans on the bridges between Bradford and Skipton that appeared in the 60's and 70's.

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 12:49 PM

Walter Greaves (cyclist)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Walter Greaves Personal information
Full name         Walter William Greaves
Date of birth         April–June 1907
Place of birth          United Kingdom
Date of death         1987
Team information
Discipline         Road - Endurance rider
Role         Rider
Rider type         All-rounder
Amateur team(s)
Airedale CC
Major wins
World Endurance record for a single year
- 45,383 miles (73,037 km) in 1936
Infobox last updated on
13 October 2008

Walter William Greaves (April–June 1907[1] – 1987) was a British cyclist who set the world record for distance ridden in a year - despite having only one arm and falling off numerous times. Greaves rode 45,383 miles (73,037 km) in 1936.
Contents
[hide]

    1 Personal life
    2 The 1936 World Endurance record
       2.1 Record background
       2.2 Preparations
       2.3 The bicycle
       2.4 The 1936 record ride
       2.5 End of the record
    3 The Golden Book
    4 Life after the record
    5 Notes
    6 References

[edit] Personal life

Greaves was born in 1907, his birth was registered in the North Bierley district, Yorkshire. He lived with his mother in Newlands Place, Undercliffe, Bradford.[2] He lost an arm in a road accident when he was 14.[2] One account says his father owned a car with running boards. His father was driving after drinking and Greaves opened the door, stood on the running board ready to jump, but was hit by a tram. His arm was so damaged that it was amputated below the elbow.[3] Other accounts said that he had hung the arm out of a train window.

He developed an interest in communism which did little to help him find work as an engineer. According to the historian John Naylor, Greaves was unemployed and according to some, almost destitute. Unemployment in Bradford was high but "his reputation as a lefty troublemaker made employers reluctant to take him on".[4] Tim Teale, a Leeds cyclist who knew Greaves said "Walter tried to make you sign up for the young communists but nobody took much notice".[5]

Greaves was an outspoken teetotaller, a practice which had a sequel when he broke the record.
[edit] The 1936 World Endurance record
[edit] Record background

The world record for distance cycled in a year began in 1911, an era when bicycle companies competed to show their machines were the most reliable. The first holder was Marcel Planes of France, with 34,666 miles (55,790 km). The competition was organised by the magazine Cycling. The record has been established nine times.[6] A tenth claim, by the English rider Ken Webb, was later disallowed.[n 1]
Year         Record holder         Country         Distance
1911         Marcel Planes          France         34,666 miles (55,790 km)
1932         Arthur Humbles          Great Britain         36,007 miles (57,948 km)
1933         Ossie Nicholson          Australia         43,966 miles (70,756 km)
1936         Walter Greaves          Great Britain         45,383 miles (73,037 km)
1937         Bernard Bennett          England         45,801 miles (73,710 km)
1937         René Menzies          France         61,561 miles (99,073 km)
1937         Ossie Nicholson          Australia         62,657 miles (100,837 km)
1939         Bernard Bennett          England         65,127 miles (104,812 km)
1939         Tommy Godwin          England         75,065 miles (120,805 km)

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 12:47 PM

walter greaves was an extraordinary man, he was a world champion cyclist, he did a gig in the early eighties at mildenhall folk club in suffolk and cycled home to yorkshire the same night, not bad for someone with one arm

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: GUEST,Dave G
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 11:51 AM

Bingley Folk Club at the Ferrands Arms run by the late John Rennard and Jim Wishart. Worth turning up just for those two, never mind the great guest list. Also remember Walter Greaves was a regular there, a one armed blacksmith who sang Lloyd George, later recorded by Tony Capstick.

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: GUEST,Lilacvine
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 02:52 PM

I posted a Stefan Sobell song on YouTube a while ago but it's the only one on there at the moment. It would be good to hear more. Perhaps someone else has some old recordings they could post? Mine was from a reel to reel tape!

Stefan Sobell - The Mask I Wore

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 01:46 PM

I recall attending the Leeds University Folk Club (among others) around 1964/5. The very first time I ever saw what we, in those days, wrongly called the "clawhammer" style (it was really Travis-type picking) was when a young guitarist called Stefan played and sang a version of "The Golden Vanity". We rushed back to student digs transfixed and got to work on it as fast as we could.

I learned, many years later, that the guitarist was called Stefan Sobell. I confirmed this by email correpondence with Stefan recently and he admitted that the young maestro was indeed himself.

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: Musket
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 01:06 PM

I started going to my local club "just over the border" at The Boundary in Worksop in the late '70s.

I used to go to many of the South Yorkshire clubs with Mitch, and Tom & Bertha Brown et al assuming we could cadge a lift. The Wheatsheaf at Barnsley, Kiveton Club at The Lord Conyers, Grapes on Trippet Lane Sheffield, Bay Horse at Bentley... All of which have been mentioned. We also used to book many of the names mentioned here at The Boundary in those days. Heady stuff.

Mind you, by reading this thread... after all these ruddy years... somebody has owned up to telling John Bartley to start learning monologues!!! One assumes the statute of limitations was checked first? Oggle goggle oggle goggle......

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 03:46 AM

"Somebody upthread mentioned Nellies in Beverley - I'm sure that was open before the mid-70s because I seem to remember going there in my late teens/early 20s."

I used to drink in Nellie's when it was still run by Nellie and Dorothy and there wasn't a folk club there up to 1968 when I left the area. There was one at The Sun which, in those days, I think was called The Fox. I also remember great nights at The Blue Bell in Hull. Those were the days whyen fol music was actually 'cool' and there were more people under 30 than over.

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 03:46 AM

"Somebody upthread mentioned Nellies in Beverley - I'm sure that was open before the mid-70s because I seem to remember going there in my late teens/early 20s."

I used to drink in Nellie's when it was still run by Nellie and Dorothy and there wasn't a folk club there up to 1968 when I left the area. There was one at The Sun which, in those days, I think was called The Fox. I also remember great nights at The Blue Bell in Hull. Those were the days whyen fol music was actually 'cool' and there were more people under 30 than over.

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 02:38 PM

More videos of Jon Rennard have now been added to YouTube and links are on this thread. Jon was very involved in the Yorkshire folk scene prior to his death.

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: GUEST,Lilacvine
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 04:26 PM

More new YouTube videos of Jon Rennard...


Jon Rennard - In Your Smile


Jon Rennard - I Live Not Where I Love

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: GUEST,Lilacvine
Date: 22 May 11 - 11:53 AM

Thought you might be interested to see this tribute to Jon Rennard that I put up on youtube.

JON RENNARD - BRIMBLEDON FAIR

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: JennyD
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 05:10 PM

I used to go to the Blue Bell in Hull around 1964, when I was only 14 and far too young to be going into pubs, so my friend and I always put on our high heels and make-up to make ourselves look older (we thought). I remember seeing the Watersons and Martin Carthy and Dave Swarbrick there. Somebody upthread mentioned Nellies in Beverley - I'm sure that was open before the mid-70s because I seem to remember going there in my late teens/early 20s.

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: Max Johnson
Date: 30 Apr 11 - 06:51 AM

I've just remembered that name of the Ripon club at the White Horse was The Saddletree Folk Club.

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: GUEST,John Shackleton
Date: 29 Apr 11 - 08:32 PM

Jim Harrison would feel very uncomfortable to find that he is thought to be dead. I can assure you that he is very much alive!
By the way, I did't really escape from teaching; I simply retired after a wonderful and happy career in teaching (honest).
John

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 26 Mar 11 - 03:24 PM

Hi Little Jamie and welcome

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: Max Johnson
Date: 03 Mar 11 - 06:58 AM

The first club I ever went to was Les Pope's White Horse in Ripon. The Cropper Lads were singing. I'd never heard anything like it before, and it was a turning-point in my life. It was also, later, the first club I ever sang in ('The Maid of Fife').
Then there was the Harrogate club. The first time I went there, I saw Stefan Sobell before he started to devote most his time to making dulcimers (and, later, guitars of course). He was a great singer. Roger Knowles, and Robin and Barry Dransfield were regulars.
Then the amazing Knaresborough club and the RSC of the North, The Knaresborough Mummers.
A bit later I got involved with the Watermill Inn up-dale at Fosters' Beck, where I was often MC and sang regularly with Eric Leggoe and Steve Morrison (Steve, sadly, no longer with us).

And, does anyone remember a club in Headingly that I don't think has been mentioned yet - was it The Fox, or possibly The Vine?

Dave Sutherland - I used to travel up to the Royal Turf in Felling with Les Pope - what great nights!

It was a marvellous time - wonderful music and wonderful people.

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 06:58 PM

Full circle, a new Folk Club has opened a couple of weeks ago(Mondays) at the Falcon in Mexborough if you still live there or want to revisit your roots, Conroy?

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: GUEST,conroy
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 05:03 PM

There was a club in the room upstairs at a pub in Balby, I think it was called the Fairway. Mid 1960s.
Had Pete Sayers a few times - he was brilliant.
The Levee Breaks turned up most times. If you weren't depressed watching Rovers, you would be after they performed.
Lived in Mexborough, saw a lot of Tony Capstick, and Keith Foster.
Happy days. No money, but a lot to look forward to.

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: GUEST,GUEST: Sarah Toots
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 03:03 PM

I can without a shadow of a doubt inform anyone that my father 'John Toothill' is alive and well and still strumming his plectrum and will do for years to come.

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: GUEST,Steve The Southerner
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 11:48 AM

Just come back from a 6oth birthday in Donny all i have heard about is the Bay Horse in Bentley, if anyone was there at the time in the 1970's Pauline Millard and Stewart Milner and his wife Linda say Hi and thanks for the memories

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: GUEST,ollie
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 11:18 AM

used to be regular at york folk centre happy days ,now residing miltown malbay west clare

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: GUEST,jen toots
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 02:02 PM

' Dave Hopton sadly died a number of years ago as did "Big" John Marshall of Ilkley who was a superb plectrum guitarist who turned up at the Fleece on a pretty regular basis. John Toothill who also played there, I believe, is now seriously ill with a cancer'

in reply to this post, i am daughter of John Toothill (the named above) and i can confirm he is not seriously with cancer; he is still playing - in a band called The BeerHouse Boys in Keighley.

thanks!!

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: GUEST,Gail
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 09:30 AM

Steve Lane, that Leeds pub sounds like The Adelphi. It certainly had some folk nights in there, but was mainly known for jazz (and its Victorian tiles).

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 04:28 PM

Merlins Nest at T'Owd Sair at Linthwaite, Saturday nights (hang on a minute? That was the 1980's?) The Bare Knuckle Boys near Holmfirth, Thursday nights was it or Wednesday? The Hartshead Moortop folk club at the Old Packhorse Inn? let me see, who ran that one? I remember Bradford University Folk Club at the Queens Hall Bradford. The Three Owls at Kirkburton, which later moved to the Golden Ball at Shepley, Hudds. The George in Cleckheaton, (Thursdays)first place I ever played in public, Mike Harding was guest that night, that would be January 11th 1973! The Anchor in Brighouse, Saturday night. The Old Bluebell in Bury which doesn't really count cos it was in Lancashire but it was still a bloody good club and they gave me some of my first gigs, was it Alan and Jean Seymour who used to run it?

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: GUEST,Dick C.
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 01:34 PM

I was at the Lowther the night Bert Jansch played. I agree - god it was hot in there! I remember Geordie Coulson playing two songs that night as well - Sea Watter Shy and an absolute brimer of a Shoals of Herring (might just be the best version I ever heard).

What a night that was.

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: Steve Lane
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 12:39 PM

I can only go back to the mid 70s but fondly remember the clubs in Bradford and Leeds well.

I specifically remember going to a club in Leeds known as "The Handpump" - it moved to a pub just over Leeds Bridge between the Grove Tetleys brewery and had the most wonderful victorian gents urinals. Can anyone confirm which pub that was?

I also remember coming across punk music for the first time in Macmillan College Bradford crypt when they were still clearing away the folk club. All of a sudden these strange pierced people suddenly started bouncing up and down like pogo stick to deafening music. I legged it.

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: Joe Nicholson
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 07:38 PM

I remember Andy Speechly in a trio called Plexus and i have their Lp somewhere.

Joe Nicholson.

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 03:48 PM

Andy Speechly went on to form a duo with Martin Alcock - Pegasus ????
I've got their Lp somewhere !!!!!

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: Sugwash
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 04:17 PM

My learned chum, Mr Bruce M Baillie tells me it was The Bay Horse in Tadcaster, not The White Horse.

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 01:33 PM

Anyone remeber Sue Garth Mason? Leeds late 60s early 70s

Great voice, lots of prescence

L in C

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: GUEST,Ebor_fiddler
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 12:46 PM

Then there was that time at The Lowther in York, I think in 1966, when we booked Bert Jansch and there was not only no standing room, but the chamber was so hot, in mid-winter, that we had to open the windows which were promptly used as seats with legs dangling outside (as published in The Acts of Th eApostles - check!) - I know - I had one of those seats and I was no t'Committee!

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 10:12 AM

Thanks Guest Jimmy,

"Les in Chorlton - Geoff Ingram now lives in Ireland.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Geoff-Ingram/1061742422

Doesn't look like the same Geoff maybe he was Jeff?

Cheers

L in C

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 10:12 AM

There was also a Bradford University folk club.

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: Sugwash
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 10:00 AM

Oh it's all coming back now. The Armytage Arms club was run by Andy Speechly, he was a member of Hawg's Folly who, now I think on it, had instumentation. I think Andy played a guitar that looked like a lute complete with soundhole rose.

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: Sugwash
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 08:41 AM

There was one at the Armytage Arms on Clifton Common near Brighouse (or Brigus to the locals). Me and my mate got there early one week and was engaged in conversation by a strange but interesting bloke in a floppy cap. Turned out it was that night's guest, Peter Bellamy, the first time I saw him; a memorable evening. Can't remember who ran the club though. Another guest that sticks in the mind was Hawg's Folly, an unaccompanied trio (it been the days before accapella had arrive on these shores) who sang Elizabethan madrigals amongst other things.

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 08:01 AM

Talking about Ripon and Harrogate there used to be a bloke called Les Pope who ran a string of clubs in that area during the sixties. I used to meet up with him at The Royal Turf, Felling on Tyne on Saturday nights as he was usually up in the North East at a weekend.

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: GUEST,Scorpio
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 05:22 AM

Oh my God! Drowning in nostalgia. Now an ex-pat (which does not mean I used to be an Irishman), talk of Leeds folk clubs in the 70's and Sam Smith's ale brings a tear to the eye.

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: Sugwash
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 08:41 AM

I used to go to one in Tadcaster in the 70s. I've an idea it was at the White Horse near both Smiths breweries, John Smith's and the good one, Sam Smith's, but it's been a while and too much Sam's has addled my memory.

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 04:24 PM

I don't think the folk club at the White Horse in Ripon or the Maypole folk club (Barwick in Elmet then Seacroft) have been mentioned yet.

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 04:21 PM

Saturdays at the White Lion, Huddersfield, around 1976.

Subject: RE: Yorkshire folk clubs 60's and 70's
From: GUEST,Connie
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 08:01 AM

Anybody remember Pete "Cherokee" Wills? I often wonder what happened to him.