BS: Tories just short of a majority

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Lox
Date: 23 May 10 - 05:08 AM

Now now Bozo - don't get upset ...

(rofl)

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 10 - 05:00 AM

I thought as much, Paco. Anyone who would pay £9000 in income tax in one month and not know anything about HMRC close off periods is not like to know anything about running a company either. I guess you have never heard of marketing and image either?

:D (eG)
Co reg: 6333129

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 May 10 - 06:42 PM

You know who I am. See you soon. Tosspot.

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 May 10 - 05:04 PM

Lox, I care nothing for your hang ups and problems and certainly do not follow your posts specifically. I suggest that you are careful with your insults in the real world - it's rather different than from behind a computer screen.

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Gervase
Date: 22 May 10 - 01:01 PM

If that bullshitting troll ever managed to start a company I'd be amazed. From his posts he seems the sort of bloke that spends his days raising and lowering a barrier while wearing a hi-viz jacket. Not the sort of person to whom you'd turn for any political wit or wisdom, at any rate.

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Paco O'Barmy
Date: 22 May 10 - 08:37 AM

Gnome,
    I would no more put my company details up on this board than I would put you out if you were on fire!

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 May 10 - 06:31 PM

The results using an AV system would not have been wildly different.

Or maybe they would have been - nobody knows, because in an AV system any number of people wouldn't have voted the same way, and they'd have had a wider range of choices. I'd probably have ranked the one I actually voted for in fourth or fifth position under AV.

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 10 - 06:26 PM

Ditto for he April comment, Paco. April 6 is tax year end so the busiest month is March. Business taxes are always due 7 months after formation anniversary and personal taxes in January. Words like hole, digging and stop would usualy spring to mind but as ignorance of anything remotely business-centric is apparant I think I am probably too late.

Or would you care to share your company registration number with us to prove me wrong?

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Lox
Date: 21 May 10 - 05:39 PM

Its taken you 9 days to come up with that little Gem Bozo.

Well done.

If you were a heckler at a gig, the audience and performers would all have gone home by the time you thought of something to shout out.

There's nothing like a quick wit ...

... and you have nothing like a quick wit!


Now stop following me you wierdo.

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 May 10 - 04:49 PM

Have you ever heard the Brits moan about their political system to people of other country's?

Presumably you mean countries??

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Paco O'Barmy
Date: 21 May 10 - 04:23 PM

Greetings Socialist. A lot of you are obviously unemployed or work for Local Government ( same thing really) otherwise you would realise that APRIL in England is the Inland Revenue 'catch up' month where your accountant advise you to come semi-clean and contribute a bit!
             Tee hee hee, you lost!
ps: Goodbye HIPS,thank you Mr Cameron.

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 May 10 - 06:48 PM

I have worked in Sweden (and had Swedish and Norwegian clients) and agree that those I met there were generally very proud of their record on progressive policies, equality, quality of life (and Ingemar Johannson))

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Lox
Date: 12 May 10 - 04:29 PM

"people very rarely complain when they are on holiday or working abroad"

Nonsense.

Have you ever heard the Brits moan about their political system to people of other country's?

They don't half go on!


Bonzo is obsessed with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 May 10 - 03:56 PM

lox is obsessed with this site

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Teribus
Date: 12 May 10 - 11:38 AM

Oh let me see now:

Lox and Crow Sister have met Scandinavians but never lived in a Scandanavian country, people very rarely complain when they are on holiday or working abroad. And what was Crow Sister's assumption again, oh yes, the assumption that I have never lived in a Scandinavian country.

Well Crow Sister you would be dead wrong, I have lived and worked for some considerable time in Norway & Denmark + I have spent periods of up to 6 - 9 months at a time working in Finland and in Sweden. So that would cover it quite nicely don't you think.

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 May 10 - 06:36 AM

Some interesting comments re: council elections
http://www.sel.org.uk/uploads/Results-FINAL-10-05-10-kf.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 May 10 - 05:25 AM

"I have met many scandanavians in my life and not one of them has ever made the complaint you are talking about."

Likewise. Though something from his statement makes me imagine that T hasn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Lox
Date: 12 May 10 - 05:14 AM

Teribus,

"Here are the Facts:"

Labour has been talking about electoral reform for 13 years but has done nothing about it.

It Still Exists because it hasn't been changed.


It Exists because the Tories and Labour want to keep it so that they have a duopoly on power.

Your "facts" do not even begin to respond to the reality of my point.


"Pensions - raided to pay for non-jobs
Gold reserve - sold off to pay for non-jobs
"Education, education, education" - complete and utter disaster
NHS - more money thrown at it than you can imagine and it only gets worse and worse
"Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime" - complete and utter joke. The ASBO has become a badge of distinction."


This list is taken straight out of the tory handbook for politically ignorant fools.

Try saying something meaningful.



"Good list that Lox, some absolute crackers there"

Here we go - Teribus gets his big chance to sneer at foreigners.

Come on - out of the closet ...


"the Scandinavian countries, socialist nannie states in which you would be complaining about "Big Brother" all the time,"


I have met many scandanavians in my life and not one of them has ever made the complaint you are talking about.

They are in fact very proud of their green record and their record on social responsibility, not to mention that the quality of life for the average citizen of scandanavian countries is significantly higher than it is here, as is the quality of their education.

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Lox
Date: 12 May 10 - 05:01 AM

"who will do anything, no matter how destructive to the country, merely in order to cling onto power."

So why did Labour pull out of negotiations - effectively giving the election to the tories.

Try and make your response consistent with the assertion that Labour " will do anything, no matter how destructive to the country, merely in order to cling onto power."

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 10 - 04:20 AM

The results using an AV system would not have been wildly different. Con:281 Lab:262 LibDem:79 Other:28 - OK LDs would have got more votes and they still would have held the balance of power but I am not sure if the same would have been true had the vote had given anyone a majority. Does anyone know?

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: theleveller
Date: 12 May 10 - 03:33 AM

"Don't hold your breath Mr/Ms Green leveler."

No but modestly optimistic. My glass is half full.

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 May 10 - 03:26 AM

Interesting.
"This is good news for parties like the Greens who can step in to fill the political vacuum - especially if there really is a change in the voting system"

Don't hold your breath Mr/Ms Green leveler. The last thing the Tories want is any form of PR. The Labour Party didn't until last week

L in C#

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: theleveller
Date: 12 May 10 - 03:18 AM

Fascinating to be around while history is being made - but how will this unholy alliance be judged by future generations?

I suspect that, because of the animosity that this deal has caused, coupled with the unpopular eonomic measures which are going to be made and the in-fighting that is bound to ensue, The Condems will have condemned both their parties to the political wilderness for very many years. This is good news for parties like the Greens who can step in to fill the political vacuum - especially if there really is a change in the voting system. We've had a major breakthrough in winning our first seat this time and that could open the floodgates to the Green Party being a major political influence in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 May 10 - 03:05 AM

I feel sure I don't need to explain posh to anybody much.

L in C#

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 May 10 - 02:50 AM

Please explain posh.

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 May 10 - 02:16 AM

So, after that terrible list of Labour failures - I wont bother boring you by contesting anything you have written Mr/Ms Teribus, you know you are correct, as I do myself, the voters, minds poisoned by the Marxist Press, couldn't bring themselves to elect a tory majority and a party closer in policy and history is getting into bed with the posh children of Thatcher and the rank and file of the Fib Dems?

Who knows

Best wishes

L in C#

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Teribus
Date: 12 May 10 - 12:11 AM

200 Up

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Teribus
Date: 12 May 10 - 12:11 AM

Good list that Lox, some absolute crackers there - Greece eh?? Iceland?? - the Scandinavian countries, socialist nannie states in which you would be complaining about "Big Brother" all the time, plus the fact of course they do pay rather a lot in tax (Norway amongst the richest in the world basic rate is 38%), which you cannot really avoid if you want to live there (small populations mean you cannot hide and to do anything you have to use what they call your "Birth-Number").

No Brown did not engineer the crisis in the global banking system Bill Clinton, Freddie Mac and Fanny May did that. All Brown did was errode our ability to withstand the worst of its ravages.

Pensions - raided to pay for non-jobs
Gold reserve - sold off to pay for non-jobs
"Education, education, education" - complete and utter disaster
NHS - more money thrown at it than you can imagine and it only gets worse and worse
"Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime" - complete and utter joke. The ASBO has become a badge of distinction.

Glad to see the back of the lot of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Teribus
Date: 11 May 10 - 11:58 PM

Here is the news.

First Past the post exists because Labour and the Tories have stitched up the system to serve their own selfish interests.

Here are the Facts:

The "First Past the Post" system existed long before the Labour Party came into existence. Works perfectly well in a two Party System and does deliver strong Governments. What has happened since the creation of ZANULiebour is that there is in effect no Labour Party, there is no Party that represents the left, what you do have is a group of "professional politicians" who will do anything, no matter how destructive to the country, merely in order to cling onto power.

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Lox
Date: 11 May 10 - 07:26 PM

Oh yes - and Teribus,

You will note that Iraq, whose Political reformation you champion so proudly on here, is on the list.

Or did the "coalition of the willing" make a mistake there?

I mean surely the Iraqi's ore than anyone need a stable government ...

all that political wrangling couldn't possibly be healthy in such a volatile country could it?


Here is the news.

First Past the post exists because Labour and the Tories have stitched up the system to serve their own selfish interests. It keeps them in and everyone else out.

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Lox
Date: 11 May 10 - 07:22 PM

Oh yes - Teribus,

So I'm not allowed to mention the very inconvenient fact that PR works very well in Europe.

(of course you've given a good excuse why Germany can't be mantioned)

Well how about these countries?

Algeria         Party list
Angola         Party list
Australia         For Senate only, Single Transferable Vote
Austria         Party list
Argentina         Party list
Aruba         Party list
Belgium         Party list
Bolivia         Mixed Member Majoritarian
Brazil         Party list
Bulgaria         Party list
Burkina Faso         Party list
Burundi         Party list
Cambodia         Party list
Cape Verde         Party list
Colombia         Party list
Costa Rica         Party list
Croatia         Party list
Cyprus         Party list
Czech Republic         Party list
Democratic Republic of the Congo         Mixed member proportional
Denmark         Party list
Dominican Republic         Party list
Equatorial Guinea         Party list
Estonia         Party list
Finland         Party list
Germany         Mixed member proportional
Greece         Party list (with plurality bonus)
Guinea-Bissau         Party list
Guyana         Party list
Hungary         Mixed Member Majoritarian
Iceland         Party list
India         For Upper House (Rajya Sabha) only, Single Transferable Vote by State Legislatures
Indonesia         Party list
Iraq         Party list
Ireland         Single Transferable Vote
Israel         Party list
Italy         Party list (with plurality bonus for coalitions)
Japan         Mixed Member Majoritarian
Latvia         Party list
Lesotho         Mixed Member Majoritarian
Liberia         Party list
Liechtenstein         Party list
Luxembourg         Party list
Malta         Single Transferable Vote
Mexico         Mixed Member Majoritarian
Moldova         Party list
New Zealand         Mixed Member Proportional
Namibia         Party list
Netherlands         Party list
Netherlands Antilles         Party list
New Caledonia         Party list
Nicaragua         Party list
Northern Ireland         Single Transferable Vote (for regional assembly only)
Norway         Party list
Paraguay         Party list
Peru         Party list
Poland         Party list
Portugal         Party list
Romania         Party list
Russia         Party list
San Marino         Party list
Sao Tome and Principe         Party list
Scotland         Additional Member System (for national assembly only)
Slovakia         Party list
Slovenia         Party list
South Africa         Party list
South Korea         Party list
Spain         Party list
Sri Lanka         Party list
Suriname         Party list
Sweden         Party list
Switzerland         Party list
Taiwan         Party list
Thailand         Mixed Member Majoritarian
Turkey         Party list
Ukraine         Party list
Uruguay         Party list
Venezuela         Party list
Wales         Additional Member System (for national assembly only)
Wallis and Futuna

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Lox
Date: 11 May 10 - 07:16 PM

"Yep must admit there is a certain feeling of deja vu about this:"

Except that Thatcher had a majority and Cameron has been reduced to working with the liberal democrats.

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Lox
Date: 11 May 10 - 07:12 PM

McGrath,

I think Labour backed out because they believed they would attract disenchanted liberal voters into their ranks.

This appears to be true and I have heard it alleged that liberal voters are deserting in vast numbers to join labour.

Labour would therefore benefit under a future FPTP election if the Lib/Con coalition were to collapse.

They would also be likely to stay in power for a long time, by exploiting the slogan "a liberal vote is a tory seat" for years to come.

I believe that the liberals may have anticipated this and that they may hope that it will compel the tories to campaign for PR to prevent the inevitable labour landslide whenever this adminiistration falters.



Teribus.

"they and they alone are responsible for the mess as they and they alone created it."

Exactly how did the Labour party in Britain cause a global banking crisis, and how did they engineer it to begin in America?

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 10 - 06:58 PM

There have been indeed suggestions that the Labour negotiators offered a deal with immediate legislation to provide AV, and a referendum on PR. These may or may not be correct - they have been denied by some people - but in any case the problem was that there was every reason to think that it would not have been possible to deliver any such deal.

All it would have taken would have been to have a couple of Labour backbenchers vote against both offers in parliament - and several Labour backbenchers, and a couple of ministers, had indicated that they would do precisely that.

The numbers just didn't add up to make a coalition of LibDems with Labour possible.

Moreover, even a promise of a referendum would not mean that it would be accurate to say "Labour claimed to be in favour of PR" - after all the Tories have agreed to a referendum on AV, but that doesn't mean they won't campaign for a No vote when it comes. The same would undoubtedly have been the case with Labour and a PR referendum - and for that matter when the AV referendum does come it is certain that there will be Labour people campaigning for a No vote.

All very messy. The LibDems would have been much better advised to avoid going into coalition, but try for a minority Tory government, with some lesser degree of cooperation, in exchange for the referendum on AV. Perhaps they did, and the Tories wouldn't play.

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Teribus
Date: 11 May 10 - 06:57 PM

There's gonna be one helluva price to pay for this, I remember feeling just the same way when that b****y woman got in in 1979 (b****y depressed) and boy, did I have good reason to be!

Yep must admit there is a certain feeling of deja vu about this:

In 1979 the country was in a complete and utter mess after various Labour Governments/Lib-Lab Pacts/& irresponsible Trade Unions dictating to the elected Government how the country should be run (the latter could not even collectively agree on how to go about that)

Come 2010 guess what the country is in a complete and utter mess after 13 years of ZANULiebour mismanagement.

Damn right there is going to be one hell of a price to pay, now lay the blame for having to pay it at the feet of those leaving office, they and they alone are responsible for the mess as they and they alone created it. Just for the record that b****y woman got us out of the shit in 1979 and attracted a massive amount of foreign investment to Britain, unfortunately I do not think that Cameron is as capable.

Nick Clegg was doomed from the start on the pronouncements he made immediately after the final results were in. Had he opted for a re-run of the Lib-Lab Pact it would have collapsed within months and there would have been another General Election which the Conservatives would have won outright.

A new mamba joining Labour every 15 seconds?? Opened the asylums have they? After ZANULiebour's term in office you would have to be a complete and utter bloody idiot to give them a fourth bite at the cherry considering the complete and utter bollocks they have made of the last 13 years (Pension Funds raided; Gold reserves sold off at bargain basement prices; just exactly what was the man thinking about - Oh yes, he was attempting to buy votes for the good of the Labour Party, what was that? The good of the country? - That never entered the bloody equation).

As for PR? You want this stupid unnecessary and damaging circus every election do you? Works very well in Italy doesn't it. Please do not quote Germany as an example, they actually have responsible Trade Unions who sit on the boards of the companies their members work for and actually have an interest in the good of those companies and the industry they are involved in.

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: GUEST,Allan
Date: 11 May 10 - 06:23 PM

"Labour's majority was only maintained by Scottish MPs."

This is simply not true! If you're going to argue points you have to get the basic facts somewhere near the truth. After the last election Labour had 356 MPs whereas the total on the opposition benches (not counting the 5 Sinn Fein members) was 285. The had a majority of about 71. The total number of Scottish MPs was only 59 but of course Labour didn't hold all these seats. Scottish Labour only took a majority of 23 seats to Westminster. The fact is that Labour held a clear and comfortable majority of English seats at Westminster and whether Scottish MPs were present or not made little difference apart from a couple of votes. So for the most part it was only a hypothetical democratic imbalance. At the same time Labour used the so called Sewel Motion over 60 times where devolved matters were taken from the Holyrood Parliament and passed instead at Westminster. How many moans do we hear about that?

Likewise we constantly hear about the West Lothian Question but the truth is for most of the last 80 years or so the UK has had a devolved parliament in Ulster. Yet we never heard about the West Belfast Question.

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Lox
Date: 11 May 10 - 05:51 PM

Mousethief,

Read through the rest of my posts.

It looks to me like the tories will have to work cooperatively within this coalition as it is now they who are likely to depend on PR - Clegg appears to have them by the balls.

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: mousethief
Date: 11 May 10 - 05:44 PM

Lox: Nonetheless, the Tories have shown that they are willing to work in a cooperative coalition.

No, they haven't. They've shown that they are willing to enter into a coalition. Whether they will be cooperative or not remains to be seen.

keithA: NI, Wales and Scotland have their own assemblies and parliament where the English have no jurisdiction, while their MPs decide on matters that only affect England. Such injustice threatens the whole Union.

Texas has its own assembly where the rest of the nation has no say. But Texas gets to vote on matters that affect the rest of the nation. Ditto every state in the 50. There are many issues that just don't affect a state because of geography, geology, or what have you. For instance border security doesn't really affect Montana. But Montana gets a vote in it. Seems pretty normal for a quasi-federal system.

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Lox
Date: 11 May 10 - 05:41 PM

McGrath,

You have made a mistake.

Labour Promised AV would be immediately legislated and that more extensive PR would go to a referendum.

The tories promised a referendum on AV.

They are now going to have to campaign like **** to get it, or the progressive majority in Britian will ditch the libs and unanimously back labour at the next FPTP election for the most resounding landslide in history, while the libs will be off the radar for good!

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Lox
Date: 11 May 10 - 05:36 PM

So as a result of the above, the tories will need to back PR against the labour traditionalists to prevent a labour landslide next time ...

... who would have predicted that?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

... and did Clegg see it coming?

If so then he is a political and diplomatic genius!!

This has been the most fascinating game of chess I have ever seen and it is far from over!!

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 10 - 05:34 PM

So Labour claimed to be in favour of PR,

No they didn't. They promised a referendum on AV, "Alternative Vote" - but though that has significant advantages over what we've got, and would eliminate the need to go in for Tactical Voting, it is not PR.

In fact, as with the existing system, it would be quite possible for a party to get millions of votes - even more than other parties, and not get a single seat.

Look at that link I gave to the Electoral Reform Society, which explains things like that in detail.

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Lox
Date: 11 May 10 - 05:22 PM

Well they'll face a legion of voters who have deserted the liberals in the belief that voting Liberal elects Tories.

I have just been reading that labours membership is increasing at an unprecedented rate as we speak ... a new mamber every 15 seconds ...

Labour will never offer PR again - they are too stuck in their ways.

Clegg has set the liberals back 50 years.

If there is a snap election tomorrow, expect a landslide for labour.

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 May 10 - 04:56 PM

I hope they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: GUEST,SPB Co-operator
Date: 11 May 10 - 04:47 PM

I wouldn't rule out the Tories calling a snap general election before electoral reform even starts to get off the starting block and try for a single party majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Lox
Date: 11 May 10 - 04:05 PM

Its all over now ...

Clegg may rue the day.

But Labour rejected him - not the other way round.

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: GUEST,Melodeon
Date: 11 May 10 - 03:50 PM

Bring on the election! We can genuinely say "Vote Liberal,get a Tory".
My daughter is feeling betrayed at the moment, she has been a Labour voter in her short political life but last week, because she lives in a constituency where Labour have no hope of winning' voted Lib Dem "to keep the Tories out". What I wonder will Nick Clegg have to say to her and the many thousands like her who will probably vote Labour next time.
Viv

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 11 May 10 - 03:33 PM

Looks like Lab have well & truly f****d things up!

There's gonna be one helluva price to pay for this, I remember feeling just the same way when that b****y woman got in in 1979 (b****y depressed) and boy, did I have good reason to be!

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Lox
Date: 11 May 10 - 02:56 PM

I suppose it was unrealistic to expect Labour to form a new government whilst simultaneously electing a new party leader.

In addition, Labour had probably had enough of being told what to do by the libs.

Nonetheless, the Tories have shown that they are willing to work in a cooperative coalition.

If we have PR then thats the way we want parties to behave.

So Labour claimed to be in favour of PR, but in practice it may be the tories who will show that they are able to share power.

Unexpectedly progressive!

Whatever happens, Brown is officially recommending the Queen to invite Cameron to form a government.

odds on that we'll have a ConDem Government before tomorrow night.

It will be very surprising if we don't.

Labour supporters can't complain, as Labour appear to have chosen these circumstances for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: Acorn4
Date: 11 May 10 - 12:17 PM

I'm particularly anxious about that file marked "The Big Society" - is that another way of saying "Care in the Community"?

Subject: RE: BS: Tories just short of a majority
From: theleveller
Date: 11 May 10 - 12:17 PM

I think it's the nay-sayers in the Labour Party that have been the stumbling block. They'd rather be in opposition for a short time, watch the coalition fall apart (which, of course, it will) and then clean up at the next election. Hopefully, by then there'll have been some electoral reform which will give parties like the Greens more of a say. Hmmmmm.....like you, Lox, I can live with that.