BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 May 09 - 03:01 AM

I know this is a 'side note', but Rig has been asked a few times about his posts, with no response, so let me venture this, as far as your 'end of religion' posts, I, as well as many others draw a distinction between the 'Great Spirit' of God, and 'religion'...as in...'Religion is man's way of reaching God', but who listens to God, trying to reach man????
In the beginning, God created man,..and ever since, man has been trying to return the favor!

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: akenaton
Date: 07 May 09 - 02:44 AM

Don...the figures cited are your own.

They were taken from the statistics of the Centre for Disease Control which you linked to. Personally, I feel they may be a little on the conservative(with a small c) side, but surely you cannot brand your own figures "lies".

I think a couple of days away from this thread would help you regain your equilibrium.

I have explained countless times why I am against homosexual "marriage", why do you keep asking the same question?

If you are really as intelligent as you would have us believe, why do you refuse to acknowlege the "elephant in the room", even to the extent of denying your own figures?

I left school at fifteen with virtually no formal education, yet I can manage to use my powers of reason when the evidence is laid before me. You Don, rely on emotive claptrap, outright distortion and bullying to force through your opinions......well it ain't gonna work on this thread!!

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 May 09 - 09:33 PM

Maine joined in today. It's the end of religion. YAAAA!

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 May 09 - 09:27 PM

Ake, it looks like your statistics came from font color=blue>freerepublic.com, and arch-conservative web site. The Baptist Press publishes the same statistics.

As Mark Twain said, "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics!"

####

Globally, around 11% of HIV infections are among babies who acquire the virus from their mothers; 10% result from injecting drug use; 5-10% are due to sex between men; and 5-10% occur in healthcare settings. Sex between men and women accounts for the remaining proportion – around two thirds of new infections.

####

How can you avoid infection?

1)   Abstinence: Do not have sex (anal, vaginal or oral). This is the only sure way to avoid contracting the virus by this means.
2) Mutual Fidelity: Stay with one partner who has sex only with you.
3) Correct and Consistent Condom Use: Use a new latex condom every time you have sex. When used correctly and consistently, condoms can help prevent HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases.
4) Do not share needles and syringes.

So, Ake, what is your objection to same-sex marriage if it encourages stable, single partner relationships? Since neither you, nor all the king's horses and all the king's men can put a stop to homosexuality, one would think that attempting to minimize the spread of AIDS by advocating same-sex marriage would be something that any intelligent person should favor. N'est-ce pas?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: akenaton
Date: 06 May 09 - 05:17 PM

Don...If you cannot see what the statistics indicate very clearly,
then I would have to call your"obvious intelligence" into question.
Homosexuals make up only 2% of the population, yet 45% of "people living with AIDS are homosexual.
In every country in the world, AIDS in humans was first diagnosed among the homosexual community.

Your weasely reference to blood transfusions is a "red herring", as the infection is not behavioural.

The disease can of course be transmitted by heterosexual intercourse,
but if it were simple a disease of "hapstance" the hetrosexual sector of these statistics should be massively larger

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 May 09 - 04:15 PM

Stuff it, Ake. I'm familiar with all the statistics, both true and bogus.

I've been through all these arguments before--in the real world--so I'm not reading anything here that I haven't heard or read before. Yes, of course there is a link between homosexual sex and AIDS. There is also a link between heterosexual sex and AIDS. There is a link between blood transfusions and AIDS too. It is a contageous disease.

It is not exclusive to homosexuals as homophobes like to claim.

Also, Ake, when you have to resort to attacking the intelligence of obviously intelligent people, you're acknowledging the weakness of your own arguments.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: akenaton
Date: 06 May 09 - 03:21 PM

Dawn may be beginning to break, but I feel it will be a long old time till the light of reason makes it through to the Firth thought processes

As it seems to be "question time" on Mudcat, I would like to ask any here who have taken the time to read the statistics for people living with AIDs
Do you really think that there is no link between homosexual practice and AIDS?

If you answer Yes, could you please give the reasons for that belief.

If any Mudcatters are unaware of the statistics, I shall be pleased to post them for your perusal.

If you think it is none of your business.....go sit in the corner with Rig...:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: akenaton
Date: 06 May 09 - 02:32 PM

"Still no sight of the elephant then?"


               Yes, it's comprised of a bunch of people who want to involve themselves in something that is none of their business.

Rig....would you care to explain that remark.

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 May 09 - 01:49 PM

"There is NO homosexual gene, never was, never will be."


How do you know that when scientists who spend every day studying human genes don't know it for sure?
Just curious.

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 May 09 - 01:37 PM

Regarding your most recent post, GfS, you are starting to rave.

And I'm beginning to understand why you are so dead-set against acknowledging even the possibility that there is a genetic component to homosexuality.

Dawn begins to break. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: frogprince
Date: 06 May 09 - 10:43 AM

The writer in Don's link recent link #4 is definitely writing from a conservative Christian perspective. He clearly states his own "understanding that the cause of homosexuality is a highly complex combination of various factors, some genetic and some environmental". This is from someone conservative enough to cite Timothy LeHaye, an extremely onservative Christian, for support.
As to LeHaye, some of the environmental factors he lists would seem credible; a couple of others would be laughable if they weren't sad: "Youthful masturbator and fantasizer"; it's a wonder males aren't at least 98% gay. "Permissive childhood training", which could mean anything from not ruling with an iron hand to truly inadequate parenting, instilling no values or self-discipline; I would wager that that would in fact correlate with a tendency to promiscuity, but why would it determine what gender the developing child is attracted to?

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 May 09 - 09:28 AM

To remain steadfast, in an opinion, while IGNORING FACTS presented, is being WILLFULLY IGNORANT! You, all, holding onto your bent on homosexual activity, being the same as ethnicity, is ignorant.
Equating the two, is spitting in the faces of those who suffered, were denied rights, and fought, and even died, during the REAL civil rights movement.
There is NO homosexual gene, never was, never will be. That is your own CHOICE. Pointing that FACT out, and having it IGNORED, equals the same as trying to get an immature child to stop sucking his thumb. It is by CHOICE..therefore, cannot be considered a right, other than to choose. To be deceived, willfully, or to deceive willfully, speaks for itself, as to your characters. Choosing to suck your thumb, as a child, is it genetic?..or behavior?
Also, throwing tantrums, when a parent pulls the thumb out of the child's mouth, as seen just a few posts back, when Don First, wanted more attention drawn to himself(repeatedly), is nothing more than what it really is...EMOTIONAL IMMATURITY! In reality, it has no power, just a tantrum.
Does he have a right to be, 'the way he is'..sure...but must we make laws, changing definitions, family structures, child rearing,(as if he knew what that was), and laws to accommodate, such immaturity? No, but if he, and others, scream, kick, and wail loud enough, perhaps, they think the parent will let him put his thumb back. It won't change the FACT, that the child is still 'just sucking his thumb'.
So sally forth, gung-ho!...Let's be immature, ignorant, and pass legislation to try to 'dignify' our BEHAVIOR, and for God's sake, make sure those who are able to see this for what it really is, are silenced, because if others are helped out of it, that becomes an indictment for how really helplessly lame and corrupt, our ATTITUDES GOVERNING OUR BEHAVIOR, really are!!!! SUCK AWAY!!!..Kill the truth!!!..Discredit any lifestyle, that preaches otherwise, because as long as we can suck our thumbs, we, at least can feel the power, of being like 'grown ups', by being fascist pigs, to the rest of real world!
Talking about seeing the elephant??...nor the forest ,for the trees?

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 May 09 - 06:55 AM

"Still no sight of the elephant then?"


               Yes, it's comprised of a bunch of people who want to involve themselves in something that is none of their business.

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 May 09 - 04:01 AM

""By the way, all of those who think that I have no experience with this, and that I'm just spouting from no experience with this issue, you should know that my father CHOSE a homosexual lifestyle after he had 6 children with my mother.""

If true, that would certainly explain the degree of bile in your attitude.

It is still not, however, proof that would stand up in any court, of your father's "lifestyle choice", as opposed to his "predisposition".

Many gays have had hetero relationships before coming out.

One thing YOU might like to ponder, though.

If, as you so desperately need to believe, homosexuality is not genetic in origin, but learned behaviour, does it not NECESSARILY follow that heterosexuality is also a "lifestyle choice" in the opposite direction?

If this is so, then the question of "normality" or "deviance" surely does not arise.

In which case, notwithstanding which group is in the majority, the argument IS simply about equal rights in law.

You can't have it both ways, you know.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: akenaton
Date: 06 May 09 - 02:45 AM

Still no sight of the elephant then?

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 May 09 - 12:38 AM

Again, from the 'For what its worth Department': (If you want the link, I'll post it.


Resolved Question
Show me another »
When are those that are trying to prove there is a gene that causes one to be gay going to give up?
Billions of dollars have already been spent to no avail. No one experiment has proved and concluded that there is a "gay gene," and no one ever will.

Additional Details
By the way, all of those who think that I have no experience with this, and that I'm just spouting from no experience with this issue, you should know that my father CHOSE a homosexual lifestyle after he had 6 children with my mother.


Not to get to personal, but to squash any type of statement about my father already being gay, I'll explain this. He was molested when he was a child by his father and uncle. He learned how to deal with the shame and pain of this act by storing it inside and never talking about it. This, undoubtedly, led to prolonged psychological effects that plagued him and eventually chose him to choose his lifestyle.

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 May 09 - 11:54 PM

Dr. Cohen's therapy of beating the chair with a tennis racket, was merely an example of how one could, take his built up rage out. John Lennon used 'scream therapy'..whatever works, ok?
As far as anecdotal, a son, bio-med graduate giving a speech, and saying his father used to be gay, etc etc, is hardly anecdotal...unless of course you want to minimalize that..which of course father/son bonding in a positive way, homosexuals do. Usually it is a source of great pain, that they didn't. Anecdotal???

Here, in case anyone is interested at all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNdPnd-c_Q

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 May 09 - 08:36 PM

You answered my question? Not so anyone would notice. You've made a few general comments about same-sex marriage being detrimental to the concept of marriage, but I want you to get down to specifics. You didn't have any trouble with that when you decided to dissect my brain and show its diseased parts to the world at large.

And just how is it that I treat the "Christian perspective?" You'll have to be a bit more specific on that also, because there is more than one "Christian perspective" on the matter of gender orientation, or haven't you been paying attention? I am hardly bigoted. There are may differences of opinion on what constitutes the most important aspects of Christian theology. Timothy LeHaye's argument is one of the most succinct examples of the "homosexuality is a sin and it can be cured" perspective, which is why I linked to it. To allow people to compare his approach with the scientific approach.

I am not "reciting homosexual propaganda," I linked to comprehensive articles by authorities on the subject for the enlightenment and edification of those with minds open enough to consider all sides of the matter. There can't be two sides to this, GfS, both "a matter of choice" and "predisposed." One of them has to be wrong. You are so locked into your own position that you won't even consider other opinions, no matter how authoritative. Unscientific and illogical, verging on the irrational.

And just WHO is practicing in public like Dr. Phil? Are you having an identity crisis? You seem to be loosing track of who is who and who said what on this thread.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: frogprince
Date: 05 May 09 - 08:11 PM

Dr. Richard Cohen and his son: proof by an anecdote, from a therapist whose curative treatment for gays consists, at least in some significant part, of having them pound on furniture with a tennis racket.
" By the way, the way you treat the 'Christian perspective', umm, you wouldn't classify that as just a little on the 'bigoted' side, would you?" Don has repeatedly expressed his respect for the Christian perspective of the deeply rooted Christian church he attends with his wife. A substantial number of Christian churchs today maintain much the same perspective. Congratulation, Gfs,on being one of those who are qualified to define what a true Christian perspective is. By the way, how do you feel about the Christian perspective of Fred Phelps? Oh. am i being preposterous and offensive, now? Fred and his family are very convinced that their's is a true Christian perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: gnu
Date: 05 May 09 - 07:45 PM

A quiet? 900 posts?

I did not read ANY posts since I said this was not for me.

Did not have to... yer still going on about a basic human drive.

Fact is, ya just don't seem to realize, most of you, that what's good for the Goose ain't necessarily good for the gander. Needer side of the arguement is ever gonna "win" what is simply a matter of choice.... especally when it is NOT yer fucking choice.

Youse are still here? Debating the master of all subjects? 900 posts? Go.....

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 May 09 - 07:38 PM

Don, I answered your question. Somehow you missed it, probably because you had other things on your mind, or where ever.
As so far as your links, citing Tim LeHaye,('Left behind', series) I think was a little on the flimsy side, but that's how you wanted to portray it. By the way, the way you treat the 'Christian perspective', umm, you wouldn't classify that as just a little on the 'bigoted' side, would you? I mean, that DOES seem to be a concern of yours, isn't it?
And so far as your practicing, in public, (like Dr. Phil), you're the one who jumped into it. If you don't want people to respond to your sacred thoughts about the subject, then just keep your thoughts to yourself!..and for Pete's sake, why are you arguing? Can't I reply to your recitation of homosexual propaganda??
Don T. still has ventured into still, one of the best questions yet. This other stuff just smacks of 'all about me'...which, of course, it is. It is not my fault, that, (to quote another adage), 'Once you strike the bell, you can't just take away the ring'.
Dr. Richard Cohen and his son, the link I put twice, I believe, just blows your 'studies' away...especially toward the end, when upon the son, giving his commencement address, all the jaws dropped open. Why do you dismiss that so easy?? Because it contradicts what you WANT TO BELIEVE!!
Other than that, we're done with your responses. You omit whole thoughts, phrases, presuppose what you PERCEIVE we are saying, and lash out, you re-arrange anything you want, from a number of posters, to make up shit, that isn't what is even said! Your hostility to truth is staggering!
Think what you may, of me, and what I've SHOWN,(actually several of you have shown it), but if you want to be, support, believe, that homosexuality is for all of us to swallow(no pun intended), then head on. Sorry, if there are those out there, who don't subscribe to your outlook.
I'd welcome an intelligent dialogue on it, in which cooler heads prevail.
And while you're thinking about it, just why did all those jaws drop?? Could it be because he was a living testimony, that what is presently being 'taught' in our colleges and universities, AT THIS TIME, about the subject, just got busted, for being the poppy cock, misinformation that it is?? So keep your fallacious 'studies' to your group. I'm sure it will soothe you.
Don't even reply with a rebuttal, you're wasting both our time and talents!

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 09 - 07:19 PM

. . . and a quiet drifted over the thread . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 May 09 - 06:55 PM

900, whippee!

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 May 09 - 06:00 PM

It gets hard keeping track of all the rhetoric here without a racing form... ;-)

Okay, Don T., I did make a mistake there...it was you who put forward the "duck" analogy. Sorry about that.

Anyway, I still think that such analogies are often mistaken in the case of specific individuals. You see all the unnecessary nonsense I've been put through by police officers in my life....they were all SURE I must be a drug user, hell, probably a dealer! Why? Well, I did have the very long hair, the blue jeans, the guitar....duh! Ever try convincing a suspicious cop that you don't have drugs on you? It's like trying to convince the JDL that you're not anti-semitic, once their suspicion has been riveted on you.

Hopeless. You can't convince a mind that's on a vendetta of anything.

So...you just let them go through their routine, whatever the hell it is, answer their stupid questions calmly, present them with the bare facts (in my case: "no drugs here"), and eventually they give up and go away....probably muttering to themselves, "I'll nail that damn pot smokinng hippy son of a bitch next time..."

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 May 09 - 05:56 PM

CLICKY #1

CLICKY #2

CLICKY #3

And now—the opposing view. Compare the differences in methodology.

CLICKY #4.

This latter is from a study by Timothy LeHaye, best know as co-author of the Left Behind series.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: Barry Finn
Date: 05 May 09 - 05:55 PM

Just dropped in to see how this was progressing.
I had to scroll to far back to find anything that originally related to the origins of this thread.

We here in NH are just gettin to the same political stage of putting gay marriage on our aggenda.
Hopefully it looks to be going in a better direction than California's direction. I never thought that we'd exceed California in progressiveness but here we go.
We will follow our neighbors to the west, Vermont & to the south Mass. & vote in Gay Marriage.
I haven't been as proud to be from NH in the past 20 yrs as I have been in these past couple yrs since we've gone domocratic.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: akenaton
Date: 05 May 09 - 05:47 PM

As a friend Don T.....leave the comedy to the comedians!

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: akenaton
Date: 05 May 09 - 05:43 PM

Actually Don, you're at the misrepresentation again, it was I who pointed out that the website you linked to was being economical with the truth....not the much put upon GfS.

It was perfectly clear from the way they presented(or should I say "spun") their statistics, that they were attempting to hide the clear and obvious link between homosexual practice and Aids
This is not a poor victimised minority, but a vey well organised and well funded operation to make homosexuality appear just like any other lifestyle, all this to the detriment of those who practice it

Homosexuals need compassion and treatment, rather than to be set up like Aunt Sallys by their radical "brothers".....coerced into a battle for "rights" that few of them really want or need.

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 May 09 - 05:37 PM

""I was responding to something Don Firth had said about GfS being pompous...and to his remarks about how to identify "a duck".""

LH you are really having a BAD day. Wrong again, mate.


The "pompous" was Don Firth.

The "duck" WAS mine, and in response to your "still might be dead wrong", NO, not really, having looked at all the other attributes so openly displayed, I think I am more than safe in saying that the plumage and webbed feet DO rather clinch the argument.

When it comes down to it, this particular duck has been parading for some time with a sandwich board giving all the dentifying details.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 May 09 - 05:19 PM

Get a dachshund, man. They're wonderful companions, lotsa laughs, and reduced levels of daily stress.

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 May 09 - 04:36 PM

Snipe, snipe, shipe. . . .

(I'm joking....)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 May 09 - 03:46 PM

Keep pounding away, Don F. Some day you WILL be vindicated...you WILL unequivocally triumph...you WILL drive GfS away in confusion and humiliation, never to darken our dear forum again...AND YOU WILL ensure that such vile, bigoted individuals do not DARE raise their heads in polite society! OOOFAH!!!

(I'm joking...)

Like I said, expect at least a hundred more posts yet on this thread. Man, I wish I could get paid a dollar for every vainglorious keystroke that goes down here. I'd soon be able to buy that vintage Duesenberg I've been dreaming of for all these years...and I'd have enough to bail my delinquent friend Shane out of the lockup too.

Hmmm.

Well, maybe better just leave him in there for a bit, I guess...

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 May 09 - 01:50 PM

Frogprince, GfS is proving to be the master of cheap shots.

Among other things (such as dismissing scientific data as "gay lobby propaganda"), it grows more obvious all the time that GfS is not, nor has ever been, a trained and licensed counselor or therapist. No competent therapist would leap to the kind of assumptions about me that he/she did, or with any person they didn't know a whole lot better than he/she knows me. And no competent counselor would attempt to offer counseling—unbidden—to someone in an open forum such as this. Among other things, any competent counselor would recognize that as, among other things, simply unethical.

Granted, this sort of thing happens: on the Dr. Phil show. But his subjects know they are in public, on television, and they have volunteered for it.

Which I did not!

But—when it comes to personal attacks, up-thread, GfS asked if I had any children and basically ask me "would you want your daughter to marry one?" I responded, staying on subject. Then—

GfS took the details of that response, distorted them and twisted them, then proceeded, unbidden, to "counsel" me about my transgressions as a parent and my alleged ?bitterness? toward religion, none of which bears any resemblance to anything I said or anything in my real life. He/she basically drew from simplistic stereotypes and built a "straw man," then used that as a way to left-handedly attack me by implying that I am emotionally unstable, thereby attempting to undercut my credibility. And "win" the discussion.

There is also a large measure of argumentum ad hominem in that tactic ("Everyone should ignore what you say [even if true] because you are certifiably nuts").

Now why Joe didn't recognize that as a personal attack, I don't know. But other people certainly did.

GfS's desperation apparently knows no bounds.

As to GfS's analysis of the causes of homosexuality (05 May 09 - 09:30 a.m.), it is pure, unmitigated psychobabble, the kind of thing that a freshman who has just escape from a Psychology 101 class is prone to spout.

And, by the way, GfS, you still haven't answered my question.

Don Firth

P. S. "By the way, as of yesterday, 60% of Americans disapprove of legalizing, same sex marriage, while 40% of those, would favor some sort of civil union."

Irrelevant. The civil rights of minorities are not a subject for popular vote. Otherwise, we would still have "separate, but (un)equal" schools. Constitutional Law protects minorities from the majority, and in cases like this, to allow the majority to rule is to condone the "rule of the lynch mob."

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 May 09 - 11:27 AM

They usually tell me, themselves. You just gotta know the path to draw it out. And by the way, there are, and were no targets
Personally, I'd rather talk about music! And another 'by the way', in two earlier posts, one of them, a long way back, I specifically, said that I didn't want to even broach the subject, unless the person was educated, about the topic. I even let it rest, for weeks!..but, at the same time, why let my friends, and fellow musicians bullshit each other?

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: frogprince
Date: 05 May 09 - 10:34 AM

"I assure you, while you were having a hard time getting out of the bedroom, to play your guitar, in front of somebody, I was functioning,"
"remind your imaginary 'sister"

Gfs, talk about underhanded cheap shots; and you don't have the faintest idea whether there are really any targets there or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 May 09 - 09:30 AM

Akenaton, Well, as I mentioned before, and I'm sure it makes sense now, or at least is clearly obvious, the tip off, when a person is being counseled, and they have issues, and it is not quite clear, even unto him/her, the tip off that it may be homosexual is, emotional immaturity....oh yeah, did I say that before?...absolutely....but then, what do I know???
Maybe, sometime I'll even break it down for ya'. The thing is, they really are not 'trapped' by it, I mean, in reality. It is something they impose on themselves, and keep themselves there, and though wishing sometimes, that they weren't, they resign themselves to it. The frustration to them, is you can't convince those WITHOUT those issues, of resentment, anger, and 'emotional focus', toward a parent, or parent figure, that we should adopt this behavior, as genetic, or the other sex 'trapped in my body' nonsense, and see it for what it is. It's just too much of a hard sell, for people who have a healthy outlook in life. That being said, I certainly am opposed to denying them their rights, and also opposed to calling what they do, marriage. If it weren't so tragic, it would be laughable!
By the way, as of yesterday, 60% of Americans disapprove of legalizing, same sex marriage, while 40% of those, would favor some sort of civil union. Hate to be the bearer of such bad tidings. Don't shoot the messenger.
Ake, you've been a good guy. I wish you all the best!
...now, about God..........
Warmest Regards,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: akenaton
Date: 05 May 09 - 03:03 AM

Do you see the pesky elephant guest?

Sure hope so, everybody else dodges round it, jumps over it, totally ignores it...they don't even clear up the shit!

Maybe I'm hallucinating, but it's so big and fat....then there's the long swingin' trunk....the huge flappy ears.....shit like cannonballs.
Naw, it MUST be an elephant!!

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 May 09 - 01:20 AM

TIA:"And being as how I have a sibling who is an actual counselor, and being as how she is lesbian, and being as how (that phrase gives you away also) we share everything, the *real* counselor says that your self-important writing and self-promotion betrays you as someone who is pretending on many, many, many fronts."

Let me guess, is she the driving force?..the one pretending to be a man?

You just never cease to snipe a little here, and a little there. You, yourself, have identified yourself as both a man and a woman, and just flat out bullshitted on here. You have some sort of axe to grind. I'm sure your 'lesbian sister' would counsel you, to 'Let it go'...unless, that's another one of your lies, in which I really don't care, Ok?

By the way, (and I'm wasting this on this post), remind your imaginary 'sister', that in counseling, a well placed question, can change a life....assuming people have been stimulated to think deeper, but first ya' gotta get past the ready-made mentally pre-rehearsed lines, and rationalizations....but of course, she knew that, didn't she???

Almost a nice try,..well, at least another feeble attempt.

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 May 09 - 12:27 AM

Before the conversation was hijacked, and disintegrated into name calling and defensive rants about themselves, Don T. asked and steered the topic in a direction that was a good one. About the 'churches issue'.
If possible, why can't we hear from a homosexual,(or at least one who is out of the closet)?

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 May 09 - 11:32 PM

Say, I think it's getting a little heated around here. Whatever you call it, identifying people as bigots and pompous asses is not considered proper in polite company.
Please refrain.
Thank you most kindly.

-Joe Manners-

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 May 09 - 10:47 PM

Egos are easily disgusted, TIA. Easily outraged. Easily offended. Easily upset. Easily put on the warpath. It is part and parcel of their defensive and reactive nature.

Ever read any Taoist literature? Cool stuff! Eckhard Tolle is good too. A reading of either of those will serve well to explain just how reactive and combative and addicted to blame and accusation the normal human ego is, how quick to find "enemies", and how unwilling to pardon or forgive a perceived slight.

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 04 May 09 - 10:40 PM

speaking just for me...it's not about ego, it's about disgust.

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 May 09 - 10:37 PM

Heh! No, we're not getting anywhere...we're just all giving our restless little competitive minds something to chew on, as usual, and basking in our approval of our own wit and wisdom (as opposed to those who disagree with us!)...that is the normal pastime of the human ego when it's not busy dealing with more practical necessities.

But Don (Wysiwig) T.....! This is the second time you have misinterpreted a remark I made toward Don Firth as being directed towards you. ;-) Okay, I realize that my post came immediately after a post you made, so I can understand why you thought it was directed to you, but I think we cross-posted or something, because I did not see your post at all at the time when I was typing mine.

I was responding to something Don Firth had said about GfS being pompous...and to his remarks about how to identify "a duck". My feeling is that duck hunters tend to "see" ducks almost EVERYWHERE, because it's what they want to see and expect to see. This is why Don Firth keeps finding "bigots" on the Mudcat forum, and it's why a series of police officers harassed me over the years for having long hair and carrying a guitar when I don't use drugs and don't break the law. ;-)

This thread won't end until the various aggrieved, blustering, battling egos here get so bored or frustrated with each other that they give up in disgust or disinterest and stop posting to it.

That may take a VERY long time! ;-D I'm betting at least a hundred more posts.

Peace, I think you and the sheep are in for a loooooong night!

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 04 May 09 - 10:36 PM

GfS,

You really can't live without me can you.

Neither can Cecil or lansing. And you certainly can't live without myriad commas. It gives away your fake personas every time. Oops, did I say that out loud?

And being as how I have a sibling who is an actual counselor, and being as how she is lesbian, and being as how (that phrase gives you away also) we share everything, the *real* counselor says that your self-important writing and self-promotion betrays you as someone who is pretending on many, many, many fronts.

But I am projecting and accusing others my weaknesses aren't I?

And I surely am a sucker for punishment, so please...punish away.

Go!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 May 09 - 10:35 PM

Maybe people are not as vulnerable as we suppose, and are capable of looking out for their own interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: frogprince
Date: 04 May 09 - 10:28 PM

I think that we've gained a lot of evidence indicating that Gfs is a dangerously imcompetent therapist to turn loose on vulnerable people.

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 May 09 - 10:15 PM

I'm not sure we're getting anywhere!

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 May 09 - 10:10 PM

As I said, GfS, it's a diagnosis. You do know what the word means, don't you?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 May 09 - 10:01 PM

GfS, saying that you are a "bigot" or a "pompous ass" is not name-calling.

Am I imagining things or just hallucinating?? You're how old??

Subject: RE: BS: Californians Oppose 'Prop 8' Gay Marriage Ban
From: frogprince
Date: 04 May 09 - 09:57 PM

Guest form lalaland, this time I held back to let Don Firth respond to you himself. But I was biting the keyboard. Anyone who has been around here for awhile, read a few of Don's posts, and has even a glimmer of normal reading comprehension, could tell you were shoveling a bunch of pure bullshit that had absolutely nothing to do with Don, as to his attitude toward religion or anything else.