BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 06:41 PM

Where's the 'ra', then?

No need to answer...
They've been wondering where they've been for years...

They even think they pulled off that robbery...

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 06:36 PM

eksehtra.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 06:33 PM

How does one pronounce ETC?

Hate to be a pedant, belfast..., but you know the craic...

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 04:56 PM

yewdeyeff?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 04:41 PM

Define 'word'

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 04:40 PM

Uddif?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: belfast
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 03:56 PM

Nit-picking pedants' corner. Surely it's only an acronym if you can pronounce it like a word, e.g. Nato, scub, UNESCO, ETC.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 12:26 PM

The UDF was something Andy Tyrie came up with in 1969, up around Magilligan... (He probably couldn't spell UDA right). It lasted to the degree that it made it to the list of official acronyms provided on the CAIN website, here.

I heard of the set of initials (vaguely) when I was growing up, like Den, in the midst of the conflict. They were never a player in the bigger picture, and it was soon forgotten about, once they got the spelling right.

brucie, on the other hand is just a fool, who spends his time on this forum, apologising for getting it wrong for some reason or another.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 03:16 PM

"IRA are not so stupid to believe that they can do what the British government couldn't ie. bomb and terrorise people into submission."

But they did exactly that, eric.... Bomb the British to the table

And a United Ireland is just around the corner.
Read my above post: 20 Feb 05 - 06:06 PM " that that aim is almost complete (a much un-accepted fact, I might add), its function is likewise almost complete.

Whoever else may have carried this out, eric (and others) it was not done in the name of a United Ireland. Ergo it was not The IRA

Naiveté is one thing eric. Pure ignorance is a different matter altogether.

As far as the average Brit wanting to 'wash their hands of Ireland'--, that wouldn't have happened without a successful Armed Struggle. Painful to admit, eric, but true nonetheless.

Makes you sick, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: belfast
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 05:43 AM

"Sean O'Callaghan, former head of IRA Southern Command"?

For an understanding of the mind of Mr O'Callaghan look at James Thurber's story about Walter Mitty. The major difference being that Mitty did not earn a living from his fantasies. For my own part I have not idea what everyone on this island thinks. I certainly do know some republicans who believe the bank raid was the work of the IRA. It seems what they actually mean is that they want to believe the IRA did it. Others, of course, don't believe it. In other words, no matter where you go, there would appear to be a wide range of opinions and speculatations.

And up to this point not a single, solitary, tiny shred of evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 05:19 AM

Tiocfaidh, why do you have so much difficulty in believing that IRA/Sinn Fein ever did anything wrong ? Is it becauce Gerry Adams says so ?
I can admit that the British government have committed great crimes against Ireland and the Irish people but one crime doesn't excuse another and IRA/Sinn Fein are not so stupid to believe that they can do what the British government couldn't ie. bomb and terrorise people into submission.

If a united Ireland was achieved tommorrow IRA would have no reason to exist, they only exist for their own sake.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 05:13 PM

eric the red seems to be another Pro-British Imperialist who has difficulty telling the difference between what one person thinks hardly anyone in the island of Ireland believes........

.... and a shred of evidence to support his theory.

(he probably thought The Guildford Four & The Birmingham Six should have been hanged at the time, as well)

Go on, tell me I'm wrong...
.. and I'll tell you (using your own logic) that I don't believe you.

And where would that leave us, eric?

A little redder on your part, perhaps...

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 05:25 AM

Please do not forget that the military wing of the British Government have been involved in murder and torture in Iraq, just carrying on from were they left off in every country they disgraced with their presence.
Look at how many MPs from Britain have been involved in fraud, some of the unlucky ones have done time in prison, squeaky clean was never the perorgrative of any power.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 05:13 AM

If it is proven that the IRA were involved in the robbery, we will see the effect this has on the electorate, judging by Nationalist reaction to the onslaught on Adams and co, it will strengthen their hand.
People I have talked to are disgusted with the political commentators on the media, there browbeating of every Sinn Fein spokesperson who appears is obvious to every viewer.
So when the election comes around we can then judge if Aherne, and the Unionists in the north have banished the Shinners forever, somehow I don`t think so.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 05:02 AM

Guest Tiocfaidh seem to be another IRA/Sinn Fein apologist or very naive.

Quote from Sean O'Callaghan, former head of IRA Southern Command [ Yorkshire Post 22/2/05 ] " There is hardly a single person in the island of Ireland who does not believe that the IRA carried out the Northern bank robbery. Why did they do it ? Because it's what the IRA does and because they have got away with murder,racketeering, mutilations,arms smuggling, training narco-terrorists in Colombia and much else without suffering much more than a slap on the wrist from either the British or Irish governments. "

Not bad eh!

eric

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Jimmy C
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 04:24 PM

It is interesting that no one has mentioned that almost all of the people questioned regarding the cash find in the republic have been released, including one who was a member of Sinn Fein.

There is also the scene where a large sum of money was found in a Police Sports club, of course it was planted by some republicans to take heat away from other matters. So let me see, the republicans were able to enter this police sports club, walk all the way into the toilet area carrying a parcel and walk out again without being stopped or questioned ?????>. Imagine a police club in N.Ireland with no security. GIve me a break.!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 02:32 PM

Bertie Has No Hard Evidence

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 09:29 AM

Some good analogies there Gervase. The fact is though. Sinn Fein is really the only National party in Ireland with members holding seats north and south of the border. Now I'm sure that Berti is nervous about that too. And just who on the loyalist/unionist side wants to embrace a united Ireland? Anyone? Lets try to answer some more questions how does this whole fiasco benefit Sinn Fein? They more than any other party have worked in accordance with the Good Friday Agreement. Why would they move away so radicaaly from the political path they have taken and one that has given them so much credibility among the undecided nationalist vote. Why haven't the authourities convicted anyone yet. They say the have the intelligence reports but still have not made any arrests. Nationalits do not trust the Police or the British Government with very good reason. So anything they say on the subject means nothing to Nationalists. See we've heard it all before.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Gervase
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 05:31 AM

I think Wolfgang's probably nearest the truth. There are plenty of hardliners who have no truck for Adams and the Good Friday process, and the republican movement is in the process of splitting all the time.
The Contunuity IRA, the Real IRA (thought to be behind the Omagh bomb) or some other independent faction could well have carried out the robbery, and I would imagine that Sinn Feinn and what's left of PIRA are spitting nails about it, because it plays into the hands of the die-hard 'no surrender' lunatics who will blame anything and everything on SF - much like the way the PLO gets blamed by Israeli hardliners for the actions of Hamas and Hezbollah on the West Bank and in the Gaza Strip.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 05:08 AM

Keith ..We may want to get out, but our disgracful historical treatment of NI and its people means that we are inextricably linked to the loyalists .

We cant get out without being perceived as abandoning our most fervent supporters.

SF/IRA will quite rightly use this anomaly to their advantage.

There is no advantage to be gained by the British in trying to weaken SF/IRA position, as that tactic will surely speed the return to the bomb and the armalite...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 03:18 AM

Tioc
Something I can respond to.
There is no desire in mainland Britain to cling on to NI
We want out more than you want us out.
When demography gives the Nationalists a majority there will likely be street parties here.

Does anyone else still believe that the robbery was a huge conspiracy to smear the Republican movement?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 07:47 PM

Tiocfaidh...The IRAs' purpose is to construct a United Irish Republic, a sentiment I fully agree with.

The problem lies with the Loyalist population of the North, who will always be in a position to block this purpose.

Acceptance of the GFA and participation in the Assembly has actually weakened the position of SF/IRA.

While the armed struggle went on the British govt were desperate to make concessions, now that SF/IRA are safely in the "democratic" box ther is no need for urgency.
I think the penny has dropped with SF/IRA, that they're hopes are unachievable through "democratic " means and this situation has been cleverly engineered to give them an exit strategy.

SF will publically distance themselves from IRA, and continue to work for a democratic solution, leaving IRA to take up the struggle again and pile the pressure on Westminster.

Poor Tony, maybe he'll resign before the election!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 06:06 PM

The Irish Republican Army has only one purpose:- to get the British out of Ireland.

Now that that aim is almost complete (a much un-accepted fact, I might add), its function is likewise almost complete.

Whatever else is going on here; and remember also the much more serious, proven cases of collusion between the actual Law Enforcement Agencies of the six counties, and the illegal Loyalist Paramilitary Organisations, this robbery is not the work, nor the sanction of the Provisional IRA.

Fact of the matter is (much to the annoyance of many more, I further to add), that Sinn Féin is fast becoming an extremely viable party both north and south of those change in road signs that 'The Border' has become.

All the rest is just Party Politics, and so it will continue to be.
'The IRA' is a decent enough stick to brow-beat Sinn Féin with, especially if it gets you a sympathy vote at the next election.

And God help us, but Bertie and the bhoys need all the deflection they can get these days in the wake of the Ray Burke fiasco.

Nice to see all the Brits (both Eastern and Western) getting their collective knickers in a twist over this one.
You must be feeling rather impotent as you watch Britannia lose one more wave.
(as if you hadn't enough problems of your own these days....)

The Intelligence may well be sound (although would you take your country to War over it...., again?).
The bitch, though, really lies in the interpretation of it, don't you think?

And where have we heard that one before?

Grow up, for Christ's sake.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 05:26 PM

As Wolfgang pointed out "Some subgroups reminiscent of the former glorious action days and not feeling fit for the political way of Sinn Fein, could use their military training and knowledge of weapons for a more private purpose.

This seems a far more likely explanation than one involving a deliberate action by the IRA in consultation with the Sinn Fein leadership.

If there was any political motive behind the robbery, this could only have been intended to stymie the peace process, and damage Sinn Fein. That could still be consistent with it having been carried out by Republicans opposed to the process.

Always remember, any speculation here is done from outside the loop, with only partial information, which is drip-fed to us through the media.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: michaelr
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 05:11 PM

This just in: Irish government names three top Sinn Fein officials as IRA members.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 12:11 PM

It is getting harder to believe the denials of responsibility.
If as seems likely PIRA did do it, what of their tactic of withdrawing from arms decommissioning on the grounds that it was outrageous that they should be accused?
What of their refusal to allow photography of decommissioning?

Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:34 AM

If anyone thinks there is a differenc between Sinn Fein and the IRA they are at best niave at worst stupid.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 02:45 PM

wonder who the SF representative is that got scooped, at most as part of the Northern Bank raid gang and least part of money laundering for good old SF/IRA.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 02:43 PM

"Why is it that some mudcatters have a screwed up sense of history? The British government, in cahoots with a bunch of transplanted folks, take a country from its inhabitants, discriminate against them in housing, schooling, employment. They detain them without charge, and harass little schoolgirls. When someone speaks up for them and takes the challenge, they are called an apologist. Why didn't you ask the question as to why so many think this Northern Irish policy implemented by the British government to keep control in Parlamaent to the detriment of the Irish folk living there is a good thing?

Pretty stupid question. And why didn't you question the apologists for the loyalist thugs?"

Interesting thing on t.v about "Tin Town" ? De va Lera's certainly did nt handle the IRA with kid gloves, he interned them for for years on end. What bias would he have been exhibiting, given his roots?

As for harassing little girls, atleast they were not murdered in their mothers womb.

If the title of the thread or the content of the post included the loyalist terrorists then your arguement would be valid. Ask the questions you want answered, see how soon people throw up the SF/IRA link.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 12:57 PM

With no immediate aim and much less of the former training and action, any paramilitary organisation can fall apart, even the IRA. Some subgroups reminiscent of the former glorious action days and not feeling fit for the political way of Sinn Fein, could use their military training and knowledge of weapons for a more private purpose.

'Rafia' is a name used to describe that development. Similar developments happen to the Loyalist paramilitaries, but they may lack the ability for such a coup.

It has been reported that people are being intimidated or prevented from assisting the McCartney family in their search for truth and justice.

We wish to make it absolutely clear that no one should hinder or impede the McCartney family in their search for truth and justice. Anyone who can help the family in this should do so. (IRA)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Steven
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 12:36 PM

I am certainly no expert on the Northern Irish question, either past or present but I think it makes little or no sense that the IRA was behind the Belfast robbery. If it was behind the robbery it did not do a very good job as it has been caught already (after only a month or so). Why would the IRA do this now? In the past I think they would have, yes when the 'war' was going on, but why do this just as the process is going forward? This may sound naive on my part but I don't think it is, after all what have they gained? What would be their motive aside from the purely financial? Of course those opposed to the peace process would have a motive, namely to derail the process itself. Logically speaking it makes sense (if the robbery was primarily politically motivated) that this robbery was planned and executed by those who are against what most sane people would see as progress.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 12:17 PM

Irish police investigating the funding of PIRA have arrestes people in Dublin and Cork, and recovered millions of pounds in Northern notes.

The IRA have denied the killing of Robert McCartney. Mr. Adams has not said whether or not he believes them.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:29 AM

Gerry Adams will never ever say anything anti IRA for the simple reason IRA have a history of murdering their own if they speak out.

Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness are little more than terrorists themselves, and they made McGuiness minister of education for fucks sake

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:00 AM

"The IRA has said it was not them. I believe them. But maybe I am wrong....What I can say categorically is that Sinn Féin was not involved." (G. Adams, in an interview)

Interesting wording.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 01:21 AM

Akenaton,
On one of your points, I can respond.
NI situation is not used by UK government to manipulate domestic voting. Sadly, there is not sufficient interest here to make it an election issue.
None of the main parties use it in campaigns.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 05:28 PM

I see NI slipping back into conflict again ,after the false dawn of the Good Friday Agreement.

The blame lies on the shoulders of the Irish and UK governments, and the loyalist people of NI.

Both governments are indicted of cowardice and the use of the NI situation to manipulate domestic voting.   Also in failing to recognise publically the historical wrongs which led to the supremist position of the loyalist section of the NI population.

The loyalists are wrong in expecting their priviliged position to be allow to continue.

The two factions are so polarised, that I believe all the expectations generated by the GFA were false, as the loyalists never wanted power sharing ,and the republicans never really believed that a united Ireland was achievable "democratically".

Like Iraq, it seems there must be more bloodletting before the sins of the fathers are finally cleansed...Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 02:25 PM

Den,
I have no proof at all.
Hertford is in England.
I merely observed that the police on both sides of the border, and the London and Dublin governments all say PIRA was responsible for the robbery, and sought the views of others.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 02:18 PM

Now they are being accused of a murder.
The victim was a Sinn Fein supporter from a Republican area of Belfast. He was stabbed and his throat slit.
His family, including his wife and sister, say it was a PIRA killing and that senior Sinn Fein persons are involved in a campaign to intimidate witnesses.
The local community staged a candlelight vigil in protest.
RTE report

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 10:37 PM

Keith, can you detail your proof that the Bank robbery was in advanced planning by the IRA.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 10:20 AM

This idea of having a serious discussion on the issue of the troubles isn't new on the Mudcat. We had quite an interesting one, with observations from both sides of the issue some years back. It revolved around the lyrics of "Back Home In Derry". You can read it HERE

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 07:44 AM

Pretty well all history isn't so much a matter of right and wrong, as of right and wrong and wrong and right.

It's not speculating as such I'm against, and I do a fair amount of that myself - it's when speculation is built on speculation, and people start treating the initial guesswork as fact, and forgetting how speculative it is. That's more or less what the British and Irish authorities have done in this case - and I think it's a good idea for the rest of us to guard against following their lead.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 04:50 AM

Sorry to double post ,but talking to friends from NI, I feel there is still an underlying sense of occupation in a large section of the population.

It might be helpful to try to explore how the representatives of those people deliver their expectations ,within the current political set up.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 04:30 AM

Well McGrath .,as i think you know the history of NI inot a matter of bias, but one of clear right and wrong.
I have no religious or national bias, but can recognise the wrong that was done to NIs Catholics, by succeeding UK governments.

In these circumstances I think its permissible to speculate on the current problems. Every thread on Mudcat is in the most part speculation, so why should NI, or the conduct of the different factions be beyond the pale.
Could a discussion of the actions and motives of these people be a bit uncomfortable to certain folk on Mudcat?

You are correct in stating that any thread on NI usually ends up a shouting match between Republican and Loyalist sympathisers, but I think a bit of serious speculation might open a few doors in peoples minds...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 10:07 PM

I grew up in Montreal and am very familiar with most of the province. Things have levelled out in Quebec. I wish they would in Ireland. It is awful that people are treated poorly--discriminated against because of the religion they profess or were born into. I hope I haven't made light of that or given the impression I condone it. I do not.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Jimmy C
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 08:28 PM

Brucie,
You are right of course about Quebec, it should never have happened as Canada is supposed to be a bi-lingual country, and I suppose if they had to change all the signs in Quebec to bi-lingual then would have to do it in all other provinces and territories and that would be a huge expense. I am not a french speaker but have travelled widely in Quebec, not only to the tourist attractions like Montreal and Quebec City. I have been to Riviere-du-loup, Trois Rivieres, Cap-du-la-Madeleine, Ste Anne du Beaupre , Berthier de Mer. Bromptonville, Magog, Charlesbourg and similar places and I have always found people who can speak english, sadly the opposite is not true. Quebecers are expected to speak english in Ontario and elsewhere. Being a French province I don't blame them for trying to preserve thair language and their culture, I just think they went a bit overboard with the signage question, as we say in Ireland - Tir gan teanga = tir gan anam. (A land without language is a land without soul).

The situation in the north of Ireland is different in that the nationalists want only civil rights, they want democracy, they want to be treated as equals, they don't want any favouritism whan applying for a job, they just want a fair chance of being hired based on what you know and not who you know, and the knowledge that being a catholic will not hinder your chances in any way.

By the way - Quebec is a beautiful province and I will be there again this year July 9th to 12th.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 07:35 PM

That's the kind of scenario that I had in mind by saying "probably". I don't exclude it, but I'd think a lot of other possibilities are more plausible. But I'd say Big Mick was quite right in that last post of his.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 07:29 PM

Agreed McGrath... But what if the SF/IRA leadership decided that the peace process was not going to deliver their objectives,due to the immovable stance of NIs loyalist community.
Personally I cant see a United Irish Republic being delivered through the ballot box any time soon.
Im very much afaid it will take another round of murder and mayhem from both sides before the politicians bow to the inevitable...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 07:21 PM

I don't see the point in the speculation. It is just as wrong to speculate that "The Brits" did it as it is to speculate that "SF/IRA" did it. That is just posturing on the basis of one's bias.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 07:09 PM

One can speculate and speculate and have all kinds of theories about why anyone could have set this one up - I listed a few possibilities up the thread, and I didn't by any means exhaust the range.

But as yet there's no convincing evidence pointing in any particular way. The one thing that is pretty unarguable is that whoever set it up, if they had any political motive (which they may well not have had, in fact), that would have been to try to stymie the peace process, and ensure that there wasn't going to be any administration involving Sinn Fein in the near future.

I'd say that probably rules out the core Sinn Fein leadership and the core British Government leadership - but it leaves an awful lot of other possibilities.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 06:58 PM

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