BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 04:18 PM

" I just might have known you'd diss "holisticpolitics.com", Clinton, you heartless swine! :-)"

Anything with the word "Holistic" in it immediately gets written off as New Age clap-trap in my book, and anybody who believes it is automatically suspect of being an idiot!

And that goes double for you LH!

So... :-P

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 04:09 PM

Oh, I just might have known you'd diss "holisticpolitics.com", Clinton, you heartless swine! :-) You'll get your comeuppance when we come to Windsor and picket your musical performances.

Now, I'm not gonna get myself all worked up over the fate of Paul Hill...one way or the other. I've got better things to do today. But...I will make a few brief observations.

1. All the people who enthusiastically favour capital punishment should get to experience it firsthand themselves (at least once), after spending a few miserable months or years on death row. I figure this would give them a new slant on the subject, and it would also eliminate the more paranoid and vicious segment of the population handily. The sentences could be carried out by other people who also are in favour of capital punishment, on a lottery system. The last one left would then be given a chance to off him/herself, providing he/she was still in favour of the general idea. A refusal to do so would indicate that the subject's opinion of the matter had changed.

2. Those who freely give a government the power to execute people may one day live to bitterly regret it.

3. If you think it's too expensive to imprison people, then I guess you value money more than life. Nice set of values there, Bubba. The mafia is looking for guys just like you, so you'll never be out of work!

4. The concept of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" is not a Christian concept. It was a Jewish concept (as expressed in the Old Testament), and may still be, but then Jesus gave his teachings which cast out those very ideas (among many others). For his doing so, the pro-capital-punishment crowd of his time (scribes and pharisees) had him executed. Jesus never physically harmed anyone. That many so-called Christians have ignored Christ's teachings of mercy and forgiveness is obvious, and says much about them but nothing about Jesus.

4. It is always possible to come up with particular stories that appear to support either the pro or anti-capital punishment position. That is because we are highly emotional creatures...and it's also because to every apparently rock-solid rule there are a few particular exceptions!!! And this is what people tend to overlook when they try to establish rock solid rules about life.

What's my solution? Try to come up with a generally workable rule, and apply it generally, but stay flexible at the same time and think creatively in each situation.

So, although I am nominally against capital punishment, and am not inclined to give a political system that authority, I am open to the fact that a situation might arise where I would feel it was necessary or advisable to kill someone. Such situations are rare, but they can and do happen. I try to judge each situation on its own merits rather than relying on some Absolute rule. This makes me (I hope) a thinking creature rather than a robot who lets others do his thinking for him.

Society would much rather have robots who simply follow rules. Thinking people are considered too unpredictable and dangerous...

The reason I am reluctant to give governments the official power of capital punishment is that they are unpredictable and dangerous, and are usually run by the immature and unscrupulous to boot. I trust myself. I don't trust governments, churces, or other such organizations.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 04:07 PM

Ya... more or less Raptor...

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 03:51 PM

So most of the poeple we kill will deserve it. And youre o.k. with that Clinton.

Thats Great!

Raptor

(I don't go for holisticpolitics stuff either but a good story)

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: The Walrus
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 03:49 PM

I'm afraid I'm with Midchuck - Break them for spares!
It costs more to keep two active 'innocents' on dialysis than one (full) 'lifer' in prison (and with more than one prisoner, the costs drop as the machine can be shared).
It should be fairly easy to teach the prisoner to read Braille (especially when he/she is up against a deadline).
That's the kidneys and corneas redestibuted (and such other bits as can be used), this also means that there needn't be a mad rush to match donor and recipeant as the donor won't be going anywhere.
I say make the ba*d pay his/her 'debt to society' with their body.

Walrus (in a militant mood)

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 03:43 PM

Seems quite a lot of people think that it's a good idea to kill people who kill other human beings. Which is what Paul Hill evidently thought.

There might be some disagreements about important definitions, such as who counts as human beings, but essentially anybody who believes in capital punishment is agreed on the point of principle involved.

Thannk God no country in the European Union can reintroduce the death penalty, and encourage that kind of thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 03:29 PM

Well Raptor, without ghosting the URLs you posted, I think I get the drift...

No system is 100%, nor will it ever be... mistakes are gonna happen, and I don't agree that one is too many... I suppose it's a matter of acceptable errors...

And well, if you're gonna post such 'reputable' sources as holisticpolitics.com, then I think your posts have already been given more attention than they deserve...

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 02:44 PM

Gee are the pro-death crew ignoring my posts?

Suprise!

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 02:35 PM

So you're saying they are Christians then, Kendall?

LOL

(I'm KIDDING!!!!!)

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: kendall
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 02:30 PM

It's more like a nation of hypocrites.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 01:21 PM

"Is this, or is this not a Christian nation?"

I don't see how it CAN be...

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 01:07 PM

Ah religious zealots who are happy to die for their beliefs.
That should ring a few bells in Palestine/Iraq/Saudi Arabia, and Afghanistan. Strange bedfellows indeed.
Giok.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: kendall
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 12:50 PM

Read ISHMAEL by Daniel Quinn.

What about this theory that medical science came up with that says the brains of criminals lack something that is present in non criminal brains? If this is true, they are sick. If they are sick, should they be punished? Would you execute a person for haveing a bad heart? or a diabetic?

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 11:58 AM

I do not think death is too cruel for a murderer, but even if a murder 'deserves' it, the death penalty is wrong because the court may be mistaken; then we all have killed an innocent person and let a murderer go free.

That's not right.


clint

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 11:48 AM

Good point, Nicole!

There must be some reasons behind such anit-social behaviors and we certainly would be wise to make a greater effort in finding those reasons and trying to correct them. We are not doing that. Qutie the opposite in that we lock folks up in a very hostile environmnet and if they weren't anti-social when they go in, you can bet they will be when they come out...

Another good point, troll...

The system certainly does not go far enought to compensate the victims. Heck, the United States goverment spends lots of money to to companies that supply office equipment, paper, automobiles, ect. Why not turn prisons into manufacturing plants thru a public/private partnership? Instead of the private end of the partnership paying the inmate, the money goes to the victim or families of the victim?

Also, back to Nicole's thoughts. What is possible is a prison that makes a concerted effort to take the terror out of incarceration, inject a level of humanity, and work toward an end of *habilitation* or *rehabilitation*... Then when folks are released they come out better prepared to cope with the real world...

Like I've said before, Einstein said that "Insanity is repeating a behavior and expecting different results". What we're seeing now isn't working with the highest incarceration percentage of and industrialized country on Earth...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Midchuck
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 10:41 AM

I kind of like the Larry Niven approach.

Lock 'em up and let them be (involuntary organ donors until you've cut off so many pieces that it's no longer possible to keep them alive.

That way they do some good for someone, whether they like it or not.

The funny thing is, that many people, including a lot who support plain-vanilla capital punishment, would consider this idea cruel and barbaric.

But I never claimed to understand people.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Raptor
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 10:33 AM

Why kill this guy?

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Pooby
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 10:19 AM

Good riddance, Paul Hill. Having said that, I remain firmly anti-capital punishment even in a world where there are so many dirtbag lowlifes that seem to deserve it. When a situation like Hill arises (or others of similar ilk), I find myself thinking of good ol' Clarence Darrow and his observation that "I never wanted to see anybody die, but there are a few obituary notices I have read with pleasure."

So what to do with such unrepentant, unreformable human dregs (even those who think they were acting on orders from the Almighty)? At a campaign forum on crime issues some years ago, during one of his short-lived flirtations with running for President, New York Gov. Mario Cuomo (staunch anti-CP) caught the crowd by surprise when he said something like, "For some criminals, I favor death..." After the pregnant pause, he added, "...by long, slow, hard imprisonment." So, like Katlaughing said, put 'em away for good, deprived of human contact, with only their twisted minds for company. No messy executions, no martyrs. May not be perfect, may not be pretty, but it works for me.

Poobs

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Raptor
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 10:09 AM

So what would you do if your child came home, told you he was buggered, pointed out someone, and after you did what you thought was right to the perpatraitor your child admitted to making it up?

This was todays news!

Still believe in capital punishment?

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Raptor
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 10:03 AM

Here is a story about a man who believed in the death penalty but probably changed his mind!

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/09/03/vigilante.killer.ap/index.html


Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: kendall
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 08:22 AM

Is this, or is this not a Christian nation? If not, then, An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. (Of course, all that leads to is a world full of blind and toothless people)
On the other hand, if we really are a nation founded on Christian beliefs, then supporting the killing of another human being is wrong. How can you condone the legal homicide of the state and still claim to be a Christian? What some of you advocate is not justice, it is revenge. Nothing more than the same mentality that fuels the feud.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 06:57 AM

Good points from Kendall above particularly the distinction between "Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt not commit murder".

Gareth above refers to the period in the UK between 1800 and 1840. Lots of people were sentenced to death by hanging, some for what could be considered fairly minor crimes. Within that period only one in ten were actually executed. The sentences were normally commuted to transportation for life, others transported were sentenced to either seven or fourtenn years depending on the crime. If sentenced to transportation for life, the convict then returned to England, his death sentence would stand and he would face execution (The fictional character Magwitch in Dickens Great Expectations is an example of this). Bernard Cornwell's book "Gallows Thief", has a very good postscipt on the subject. Another facet of the English legal system of that time was that the accused were not allowed to speak in their own defence, that had to be done by what was termed as "the accused's friend". That term still holds good under current UK military justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Grab
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 06:30 AM

"Farewell" is an interesting word. The last thing I'd want to do is wish him a pleasant journey! "Bugger off - the human race is better without you" would be more accurate - mind you, that wouldn't all fit in a Mudcat thread title. ;-)

I'm generally against capital punishment, so a better use of his time would be a life sentence. However, I'm also on the side of kat in that prisons should be self-sufficient (at least in terms of food). Prisoners decide they don't want to work in the fields, the whole prison gets less food. Harvest etc would be done using manual labour rather than mechanical. This would have the additional benefit of helping wildlife by returning to the "traditional" methods of farming.

Of course, there is the problem of how to control prisoners armed with scythes and pitchforks... :-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 05:35 AM

Earlier in the thread (Clinton I think) -

I also think that flat out, there are people who need killin'

I agree totaly. But what about the other side of the equation?

I also think that flat out, there are people who need resurectin'

To do one without the other is very unfair isn't it? Who makes the decision as to who should be alive and who should not? Not me for one!

I am not copping out here. I don't accept that it is divine will or any such that should make these choices. I am just saying that I am not capable of making that sort of decision. Even if I was I could only do something about half of the puzzle.

To my mind anyone who thinks that they can decide what is right for someone else is not playing with a full deck. Yet every year millions of you vote for such people! I gave up years ago. The sooner the dictators take over the better. They cannot be any worse and at least we we be absolved of all responsibility...;-)

Cheers

Dave the Gnome
(Partly serious. You decide which parts)

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 01:07 AM

I'm against the death penalty because I think it lets them off too easily. I think heinous criminals should be kept alive and exhibited to the public. The state could charge admission and thus defray the cost of incarceration. Five bucks to look. Ten bucks to verbally abuse via one-way intercom. Twenty bucks to spit on 'em. Hell, if Florida had kept Ted Bundy alive he would be as big a draw as Mickey Mouse. Talk about a boost for tourism. The parking lot of the State Prison in Starke would look like a Winnebago dealership.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 12:58 AM

I forgot to say, as I have in long-ago threads, that I believe prisons should be self-sufficient, at least as far as the inmates growing their own food, etc. I do not think it should be a pleasant place to be and making them work to shoulder the responsibility of their own upkeep would not only free up some taxes, but also help them, those who can be helped, to feel more self-confident, etc....perhaps even be rehabilitated. Regardless, I still think murderers should remain without parole unless new evidence comes to light such as DNA which proves their innocense.

Now we know why Clinton makes all of that chain maille...

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Troll
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 12:17 AM

Ok, so we should keep the bastards alive because executions are "barbaric" etc.
Now one of you social theorists explain to me why it is ok to use the tax money of the victims and/or survivors to support the person who deprived them of a husband, wife, or child. Absobloodylutely NOTHING is done for the victims and, to add insult to injury, they are FORCED by the state to assist in the upkeep of the one who victimized them.
This support includes food, shelter, medical care, free educational opportunities and entertainment in the form of satelite TV and shows. Some prisons even allow conjugal visits.
In the meantime, the victims struggle with trying to raise a family with one parent, trying to make ends meet and scrimping on things like medical insurance, adequate food and shelter, etc.
In the meantime, the author of this misery has his or her every need supplied and all the bleeding hearts cry about "injustice" and "inhumanity".
You want injustice and inhumanity?
Look at the plight of the victims for a change. Write letters about THEM. Hold candlelight vigils for the child who will never know his father; the mother who will never see her daughter blossom into young womanhood.
But we don't see any of this happening. I guess it doesn't make good copy. Victim stories don't make good sound bites.
It makes me want to puke.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 12:02 AM

He was a brave man of God fighting for what he knew was right....may Heaven's Gate swing wide to welcome him home.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: NicoleC
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 11:56 PM

I used to be strongly pro-death penalty. I still have little sympathy for people who find that kind of anti-social behavior acceptable or even pleasant. (I may believe that the concept that murder is wring is a social one, and not a universal truth, but it's still our society, our rules, and those rules makes for a more orderly one.) Over time, I have become very anti-dealth penalty, at least in the practical application if not the moral application.

The truth is, justice is not certain and innocent people die. Even one is too many. Being fallible humans, this uncertainly about applying the death penalty isn't going to change short of some major evolution.

Secondly, I don't believe it's a deterrant. Instead, I think it has the opposite effect. By sanctioning killing as a penalty for killing, it blurs the moral issue, particulary for the very young (and impressionable) or those of defective intelligence -- and many murderers are.

Making a sport and spectacle of it is even worse, like the attempts to televise McVeigh's execution. Ironically, those who champion this are often the first ones to whine about how violent video games and movies are corrupting youth.

And third, I think the vast sums of effort and money spent trying to be sure the guy is really (or is not guilty), plus the huge cost of the execution itself, could be better spent on prevention. Very little effort goes into determining WHY these people are they way they are and how they get created. Maybe it's mental illness. Maybe it's physical illness.

Detour: About 80 years ago, a dentist by the name of Weston Price was searching for the cause of cavities and came across some astonishing correlation between the diet of both parents preceeding conceptionand the proponderance of both cavities and facial deformities in their children. Some of his research compared common facial deformities in mug shots of notorious criminals with those caused by nutritional deficiencies in parents -- many matches. Correcting facial deformities in children with Down's Syndrome (by using a new-fangled technique called 'orthidontry') improved behavior and brain function. Even he recogonized that these coincidences needed further research. (At the time, the theory was that physical deformities were caused by racial mixing, but the deformities he is speaking of are ones that wouldn't be obvious to the average layman as such. The photos in the book are most illuminating.)

And yet, no one every dicusses criminal behavior as a potential disease that can be a) prevented or b) corrected. It's always "the upbringing" or the person is "just bad." Some might be one or either -- but what about other triggers and causes that might substantially reduce violent crime? Isn't that better than killing the guy AFTER he's made comeone a victim?

Then again, we could tell potential parents that eating ice cream definately caused mass-murdering children, and sales would probable still tick along. End Detour.

And finally, I have no desire to kill anyone save in a last ditch self-defense. We live in a democracy (still, I think), so when the government kills someone I think the blood is on every citizen's hands. It's like folks who eat meat but wouldn't kill to survive. Just because someone else does the dirty work, it doesn't you aren't responsible for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 11:23 PM

I guess my question is... should a multiple murderer get the same sentence as someone who's only committed one murder? It seems to me like there needs to be something beyond life in prison for people who do the most heinous deeds. I just don't know what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 11:09 PM

And good on the Governor of Illinois! He realized that after a bunch of law students found that lots of folks on Illinois death row were, ahhh, innocent, that continuing to put innocent folks to death was, ahhhh, like purdy danged wrong. Like, I said, good on him. Now, how about the rest of the governors....

Death is irreversable....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 11:06 PM

"as they had a barbaric and chaotic society rampant with murder and rape"

Lemme quote Ghandi, when he was asked what he thought of Western Civilisation, he said, "I think it would be a wonderful idea."

"prison is much cheaper than execution, given capital punishment's appeals"

That tells me that there's a serious problem with your appeals process...

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 10:03 PM

Well I do occasionally stick my head above the parapet to say a word on behalf of the Willie Browns too, Bobert. Raedwulf, you might like to check out why the governor of Illinois put a stop to all executions in that state back in, I think, January this year.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 09:59 PM

Well, okay. I believe in the concept of the "bad seed" -- you know, where folks say "All his kin were good, God-fearin', law-bidin' people who never did nothin' but good, and he went a took a chainsaw to his mother, a woodchipper to his daddy, and then got a speedin' ticket to top it all off!" Or, "He was a good kid, an honor student, taught Sunday School! How could he do this?"

You've heard those sorts of statements. You can't explain it; something is rotten inside those people.

What does society do with such people? What does society do when ANYONE has shown themself to be a danger to the social fabric?

We "cast them out" -- put them in jail. If what they have done is judged evil enough, society does the ultimate "casting out" by executing them.

We'd better be as certain of their guilt as it is possible for a human to be -- "beyond a reasonable doubt" and probably the best that fallible humanity can hope for.

I favor the "no human contact approach." So they go mad, so what? But if we MUST kill them, then let's do it quickly, humanly, quietly, and economically. I myself prefer that they be hanged, as was done in England: 13 seconds from the time the executioner took hold of the condemned to the time the vertebra was snapped in one case.

We have to get over the idea that this is "vengeance" and realize that it is something that should be done as quietly and quickly as is consistent with humaneness.

And it should be infrequent....

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 09:01 PM

Well, ain't this somethin'???

Here a confessed premediated murderer gets a *45-mics-'n-cameras-in-yer-face* heros send off while down in Texas, the innocent Willie Brown's are still be murdered by the state with not a single peep...

Screwed up!!! No, very screwed up!!!!

Bobert

p.s. The entire capital punishment thing is screwed up! It violates humanity....

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Susan from California
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 08:52 PM

I am pro choice and anti death penalty and it makes me mad every time the govt kills someone for me, without exception. Someone asked up there who Paul Hill was. He was a virulently anti-choice man who murdered an abortion provider.

Some say that being pro choice and anti death penalty is inconsistent. I don't believe that it is. I am pro choice because there is no way to prove that what I believe (that life begins at conception) is the truth. Since the time when life begins cannot be proven, it is a decision best left to women in consultation with their doctors and their spiritual advisors. But Paul Hill was clearly alive, and I for one, am saddened by the loss. Killing someone for killing someone else makes about as much sense to me as a parent who smacks "Johnny" for hitting his sibling.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: kendall
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 08:36 PM

There are so many misconceptions around this issue.
First, murder is a specific legal term, and it is not adjustable according to some fanatics outrage.
Legally, abortion is not murder, like it or not.

Two, According to the recent translations of the Dead Sea Scrolls, "Thou shalt not kill" is a mistranslation. The real meaning is, thou shalt not commit murder.

Who, in his right mind thinks that this asshole is going to be rewarded in heaven? Who thinks he is not even going to heaven?

In any case, the state is going to set him free, and he belongs in prison for life.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 08:34 PM

Quite right, I meant Guildford - it's late at night. Mind I was always surprised the Guildhall never got blown up. It did get gutted in the Blitz, mind.

I think it's a great building. Pity it isn't used for some more useful purpose by some more useful people. It'd make a great pub. Musicians' galleries and all. The Friends of Mudcat, that's what it needs.

This thread is drifting rather far from shore...

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Gareth
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 08:24 PM

Err Kevin - don't yer mean the Guildford 4 ????.

Now I may have a difficulty, if the London Guildhall had been blown up, as considering that a crime, but please !!!

Gareth

With Moscow Gold and Dynamite, we'll set the masses free,
Oh tis' my delight on a Friday Night, to bomb the burgousie.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 08:17 PM

And of course, once they are dead the chances that they might be shown to have been unjustly convicted diminishes greatly, which saves a lot of embarrassment as well as a lot of money.

True enough locking up innocent people for years isn't that much better than killing them. But I think the Birmingham Six and the Guildhall Four and all the other cases like that would confirm that it is preferable.

The American system of locking people up for years and then eventually killing them, when they are in many ways completely different people, appears to provide the worst of both worlds.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Raedwulf
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 08:01 PM

Incidentally, (And Clinton, they've done studies that show that prison is much cheaper than execution, given capital punishment's appeals.) isn't an argument against CP, it's an argument against the judicial process that allows endless appeals & 20-odd years on Death Row! CP is quick & cheap, "justice" is slow & expensive, and (as Gareth says) usually belongs to the bloke wot has the most money! :(

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Raedwulf
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 07:56 PM

Not "Farewell..", but "Good riddance to a self-righteous murderer".

I *definitely* side with Clinton on this one. You can be as smug & self-righteous as you want, but when you go *that* far across the line that society draws...

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Gareth
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 07:50 PM

Mmmmm ! The problem is that Capital Punishment is final - and not applied with any equity. A little digging on that period between 1800 and 1840 (circa) when the "Bloody Code" was the main feature of British Justice will indicate that - If you were poor and 'friendless' you choked, in public, whilst you danced the "Tyburn Jig" - Interestingly some juries would not convict, or took conveluted paths to find the value of goods stolen less than the "Capital" ammount.

Does this sound familiar to our US of A members ?????

Personally I have no difficulty with the concept of a judicial system having the right to kill a convicted culprit, provided it is done humanly (SP) and with dignity. ie NO T.V. spectacle etc.

The problem is in the UK (and US of A) is the adversarial (SP) system of a trial. "Discredit" evidence, and may the best paid Lawyer win.

The Police are not infailable, and there have been some spectacular miscaridges of justice in the UK, possibly due to "pressure" on the police to get a result or smooth public disquiet.

A more investgative approach by the courts might have produced different results.

For instance - In the case of the Birmingham Six I have no doubt that they were inocent of the bombing of the Mulberry Bush Pub. I am not convinced that they were not set up by the perpertrators to act as decoys whilst the real facists escaped. Unfortunatley this aspect seems to have been ignored. And I would also venture to suggest that it is possible that some senior police may have realised this, hence the non objective evidence produced in court to secure a conviction, to save Police faces.

My objection to capital punishment is more practical - It puts a pressure on the Jury, and may result in the aquital of the guilty, which is an equal a miscarridge of justice as the conviction of the innocent.

Possibly an unfashionble view, but I will stand by it.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 07:44 PM

"Hill would be deemed a murderer by anyone in his right mind."

I'm not so sure about that, Fionn. For anyone who thinks abortion is a kind of murder and who also believes it's a good thing to kill murderers justifying Hill's action is just a step away.

Whether that counts as being "in his right mind" is another matter, but I'd suspect it might be a view held by a good number of solid citizens.

Mind I think anyone like that would have one hell of a nerve saying they were "pro-life".

I think that a society which accepts the death penalty damages itself in all sorts of ways, and this is just one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 07:41 PM

Well, it's done; he's gone. (For those who belief in spirit, where does it go post release??) Buddy Tabor, in one of his songs, wrote:

Like the wind- where does it come from?
And like the soul of man- where does it go?

I agree with those above who tend to think that killing-by-state is unjustifiable- you gotta admit that in some cases, killing is simply too good for them. Incarceration without possibility of parole seems a greater punishment. (And Clinton, they've done studies that show that prison is much cheaper than execution, given capital punishment's appeals.)

Has anyone else heard Sister Helen Prejean speak? She tends to make a believer out of one.

McGrath, I agree that it seems like some people cannot be salvaged- but where does one draw the line? I've seen and heard of youngsters one would be willing to bet will come to a very sad end, and taking others with them. Should we erase them, before they do their stuff? Or do we wait, giving them more chances, until they are, say, 35 years old when they've reached an age where they're not likely to change? What about those who, against all odds, do?

I agree that there don't seem to be any definitive answers. A moratorium on state-sanctioned killing seems a good start.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Raptor
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 07:10 PM

I'm gonna be real crass here Take that as a warning!!!!!





I just saw one of those web sights that claim to be pictures of aborted fetuses! What a load of shit! Abortions do not have reconizable features. These pictures are sick! put out as propeganda, to further the belief that abortions happen to fully developed fetuses!

If abortion is murder so is jerking off cause you didn't let the baby live when you washed your hands!

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Leo Condie
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 07:03 PM

Uhh Clinton, it didn't really work that well for the romans, as they had a barbaric and chaotic society rampant with murder and rape.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 06:46 PM

"Sounds like you'd be a better state governor than some others?"

that's because you haven't seen my entire platform *grin*...The job I want is "Emperor of the Universe", but once I explain ALL my plans I will get NO votes.

Actually, I think I'd be a decent governor if I had the job, but I'm too lousy a politician to ever be elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 06:41 PM

Hadn't seen that post, McG. I don't think the rights and wrongs of abortion come into this particular case, in that Hill would be deemed a murderer by anyone in his right mind.

Just out of curiosity,though, can I take it you subscribe to the "consistent" view? Or are you with Churchill, who said he'd "rather be right than consistent"? If the former, are their any exceptions? And if you do acknowledge exceptions, would you still call abortions "killings" in such cases?

Subject: RE: BS: Farewell to an anti-abortionist
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Sep 03 - 06:31 PM

What's so bad about worrying over "occasional" wrong convictions, Bill? Sounds like you'd be a better state governor than some others (the republican governor of Illinois being an obvious and honorable exception of course).

irishajo, if I undertand you right, you are definitely not among those I was intending to splash with my broad brush. I just think that where fundamentalism takes people to Hill-type extremes we need to be clear that their first responsibilities are to those they share the planet with, rather than any particular god/code they might have got into their heads.

I hold Hill's supporters every bit as guilty as he is (was? not sure if his hour is come), but equally I believe that in many cases such people are victims of brainwashing, where but for the grace of God.....

If you have been anywhere near there, irishajo, then I wish you the very best in reclaiming your life. Your experience tends to support my point that if he had lived, Hill might have got his head sorted out and "repented," as the believers would say. Although I am a believer, I don't like seeing people being denied that chance, any more than I like seeing people being murdered. (And people will be murdered with or without a death penalty, Clinton.)