BS: Militant Atheism Threads

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Musket
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 12:52 PM

The religious side is very strong in some countries. It doesn't alter the odds of the dude with the white beard existing.

Sophisticated people with a rational view on religion could ultimately be wrong too. We might all be wrong for that matter and a little green man with the Lego box he built us from might be getting rather pissed off with our failure to interpret the clues properly.

All I know is, churches are empty and Christian organisations claim the majority of the country are religious. More people lobby their MP to get Sunday trading restrictions lifted than put money in collecting bowls. Vicars have been caught out adding wedding and funeral numbers to their congregation figures to increase their numbers and therefore relevance. If you are white, Anglo Saxon and claim no other allegiance, The Church of England will take your christening as proof of you being a Christian.

A widening of the term delusion methinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 12:14 PM

If my side is strong, it shows that the others are weird and must therefore be fought. If my side is weak, it shows that the others are dangerous and must therefore be fought. Since the consequences are the same, why bother about statistics?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 11:34 AM

"No, no, no, Jack. 3 or 4 to 1 SAY that they believe in specific supernatural entities. There are no figures to confirm if they actually do believe or are just saying that. "

I am sorry, but I thought I made it clear that was one interpretation at one end of the scale and that the other interpretation I gave was the other end and that there was plenty of argument in between.

Also

Are you counting the people who say that they believe something that they don't on the rational side? Do you have any source of data, any at all that most people in the US and Europe don't "keep an imaginary friend."

Are you saying that if Pew Research called you up and and told you it was a confidential survey and asked you if you believed in God, you would say yes?

The polls appear to be well constructed and with an adequate sample size. You and Musket appear to be speculating and providing anecdotes to support your preconceived opinions.

I am afraid that the best data that we have on this issue is public opinion polling. Just as the fossil record is our best data on microbe to man evolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 11:15 AM

You claimed this Musket,
"I'll keep pointing out that militant atheist is an insult to the majority of people in the western world. More people are rational than keep an imaginary friend "

There is no evidence that atheists are a majority.
There is strong evidence provided by polls that they are not.
(BTW, Muslims are not atheists. We believe in the same God)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Musket
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 11:03 AM

Jack. I haven't said anything about The USA. I get the feeling that believing in a God is more widespread. It certainly struck me that far more pews are filled and it seems to be the case that to get high political office, you need to be photographed going to or from a service. Here, neither the deputy Prime Minister nor the leader of the opposition have any religious beliefs and the Prime Minister started going to church occasionally at the request of his pollster and PR people. Religion is not such a big thing here. You seem to think people leave church to get to the pub? I could be wrong but I don't think anybody in our village at least goes to the pub from church? The twenty or so that go to church have to be seen in context of a large village of 8,000 people, almost exclusively indigenous white, ancestor - Christian stock. It is typical regardless of ethnicity. More people complain about churches forcing laws to limit shop opening times on a Sunday than anything else. A retired Archbishop of Canterbury blames persecution for drops in attendances. It doesn't occur to him that people are more sophisticated than they were years ago.

In fact, there are more Muslims attend Friday prayers thanChristians attend church in most towns according to an article I read recently. For that matter, I was at a Sikh temple a few months ago and that was quite full. The free food may have helped... It was rather good. But about a hundred people. Sounds good till you notice it is the only temple for miles, in a big city with a catchment of a couple of million people.

I don't make any claim Keith. I just say you can have all the polls you want but churches are empty and population is rising. We don't have enough housing but we are closing churches. The polls are giving false assurances if they are telling the majority think there is a God who had a supernatural son who lived on earth and died but didn't etc. Like the tooth fairy and Santa Claus, it us good traditional fun but turns nasty when people start insisting on the truth of it. They don't tolerate rational thought, and that makes it worth dismissing it as nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 10:29 AM

They are asked a question and they give an answer.
Why assume that any significant number say something different to what they really think?
These are mainstream survey firms with a reputation.
Are there any surveys that find a different result?
No?
On what evidence did Musket make his claim?
None.
A made up Musket fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 10:23 AM

If the question is are there more Atheists and non-believers and persons who do not self identify with religion than people who believe in specific supernatural entities? (keep an imaginary friend) Then Keith is right in the USA and Europe its about 3 or 4 to 1 in favor of imaginary friend keepers.

No, no, no, Jack. 3 or 4 to 1 SAY that they believe in specific supernatural entities. There are no figures to confirm if they actually do believe or are just saying that. Maybe they say it to just be on the safe side. Sort of insurance, in case they do not believe and are wrong:-) Maybe they, like me, are just used to saying they are Roman Catholic because it is easier than explaining something else. Maybe they are just superstitious. Maybe they are just winding someone up. You know, sort of like people do on here! There are dozens of reasons why the 3 0r 4 to 1 cannot be taken as fact. Sorry.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 10:06 AM

Ian, You are an educated, man and you must see, statistical reports in the course of your work. You probably know the math of sample size better that I do. The pew poll, I posted had fair questions and a huge sample size. In the USA a majority of people, as you so wittily put it do keep an imaginary friend.

OTOH, according to the other link I posted about Europe, In the UK, things were a lot closer. Only slightly more slightly more said they believed in God than said they were Atheist.

Keep in mind please that the evidence you present is based on your own observations. Also, keeping in mind that the comparison you made was "people who are rational" vs "those that keep an imaginary friend" While the people who go to church only to slip out to the pub before the service ends, may not be the best Christians, the rational behavior would be to skip church and get a good seat before all the "God botherers" show up.

If the question is are there more Atheists and non-believers and persons who do not self identify with religion than people who believe in specific supernatural entities? (keep an imaginary friend) Then Keith is right in the USA and Europe its about 3 or 4 to 1 in favor of imaginary friend keepers.

If the question is are there more "Rational people" (people who don't really care about religion) than devout religious people (People firmly convince that their imaginary friend is real in the way that you and I are and is listening to their every prayer) in Musket's neighborhood. Then I trust Musket's judgement on that and think that he is right.

Anything between those extremes is subject to discussion, but IMHO not worth getting anyones knickers twisted.

Cheers.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 06:38 AM

And of course there are those who need the vast majority to share their delusion so they don't look so silly themselves.

I have often wondered how a bloke with a doctorate etc feels whilst putting on a pointy hat and telling a few hundred gullible people what the big man is thinking and what his lad would have done.

If the majority are superstitious then why do twenty people walk out of our village church on a Sunday lunchtime whilst the pub next door is already bursting at the seams? Why has a church in Sheffield S6 recently shut through lack of business whilst just down the road from it, 26000 of us go to worship on a Saturday afternoon at the match?

Why does alcohol consumption not decease during lent? Why are so many people using January as a detox month when Lent would be more appropriate?

Why are Keith and others purposely confusing polls regarding spirituality with practicing Christian ? Why is he using the word atheist? After all, I'm not an atheist. My dog isn't an atheist. A new born baby isn't an atheist.

If you are saying the number of people who have thought about it and are not inclined to theism , you may be right.

The vast majority of people haven't thought about it as they don't give a toss about something that is irrelevant to them. That isn't atheism, that's irrelevance.

And so endeth the sermon.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 05:15 AM

Why is that not a reasonable challenge?

It is a reasonable challenge. But Muskets assertion cannot be simply disproved by statistics. Religion is not about where you build the new motorway. All polls can be and most often are skewed. I'll give you an example.

In polls as on any legal documentation, I find it easier to put "Roman Catholic" than "I don't really believe in any divine power but I am, at heart, a spiritual person who would like to think that I have done some good, will leave a legacy for my children and grandchildren, and some part of me will remain." I am pretty sure I am not the only one. It all comes down to what many have been saying - The divide is not simply religious vs atheist. There are as many, if not more, type of atheist as there are religious folk.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 05:01 AM

Polls are what government, industry and commerce use for assessment and planning.
They are accepted as the best evidence available and if they were not reliable vast sums would not be spent on them.

Musket claimed that atheists are a majority in the western world.
There is nothing anywhere that supports that.
All the polls say that they are a minority.
That is why I challenged his claim.
Why is that not a reasonable challenge?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 04:38 AM

They are the best figures available.

May well be true, Keith, but it doesn't make them right. I suppose the National Socialist German Workers Party was the best available for Germany at the time. God having made the world in seven days was the best answer available for centuries. Didn't make either of them right because they were the best available.

Not saying they are wrong either. Just don't place too much reliance on them.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 04:06 AM

Polls are only shit when they show you are wrong.
They are the best figures available.
Atheists are still a minority everywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Musket
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 03:58 AM

A few years ago, 0.3% of the workforce of one of the healthcare regulators were Jedi.

That'll be those of us who said we would put it on the form and did.

The following year I put Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster but it didn't get on the annual report, as no bugger else did it, and one person gets lumped into "other." Mind you, over thirty people were "other."

Makes you think...

Makes you wonder why we collect such statistics? By monitoring which particular imaginary friend you speak with, it gives the concept of organised religions a degree of respectability they don't deserve.

Over fifty spoiled papers. I would love to think they included those who have a private faith and rightly don't think it's anybody else's business.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 03:42 AM

Of course polls are accurate. 2.6% of the population of Brighton are Jedi. Must be true. It is in the census.

There are lies, damned lies and statistics.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Musket
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 03:38 AM

Here we go... The discussion starts with practicing Christians and gets confused with the polls of those who think there must be something spiritual. Easy when you know how eh?

Best part is, even many who would be comfortable being classed as Christian "don't actually believe in it"according to myriad polls. Recent polls are available on the secular society website according to a mate who takes his secularism seriously. I wouldn't know, I just know that the vast majority of people in The UK don't go to church, don't believe in fantasy and use churches for traditional reasons only.

Tell you what though. I did just have a look on a Christian website, and found that the number of churches closing and the rise in population at the same time says it all. The same odious site notes the rise in the number of mosques and sees that as worrying. Rational people meanwhile see their worry as worrying....

Doing a poll of people on their way out of church and extrapolating it to the general population isn't the most scientific method available, is it? Even then, a hilarious number profess to be too intelligent to go in for the superstitious side of things. A few bishops in that number too.

In any event, how many "militant atheists" are there?

Try not to include decent people who only question why a small number of the population think they can influence law and be above the law in some areas on account of their imaginary friend. That isn't being anti religious. That's merely pointing out that you need to win elections on your ticket before others can be bound by your nonsense. Even then, politicians are not likely to let superstition interfere too much. When a UKIP politician pointed out that the floods are God's judgement on gay people, every mainstream political party pointed out he was off his rocker. The church meanwhile kept quiet..

The term God delusion is an interesting one. Most god botherers try telling us that most people in the country share their delusion. really?

Er.. No. Of course they don't. I'll have to stop before I piss myself laughing.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Feb 14 - 07:29 PM

Very nice Ake.


You seem to have a fulfilling life.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 14 - 07:27 PM

Try a Google of

how accurate is pew polls

Read the article that is headlined

How can we trust opinion polls when so few people respond . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Feb 14 - 07:11 PM

I reckon the poll to be about right. In my area, almost everyone has a faith, they are not Evangelical, just ordinary folk who like to keep their thoughts on God private, thy seldom talk about it but I find it is a large part of who they are.
I am like a minister to these people, when they are in trouble they phone me, or chap on my door....I stop the leaks in their roofs, fix their crumbling walls, give them warmth and comfort.

In return they tell me their stories....their hopes and dreams for their children, their aches and pains, or just a friend to take away the loneliness of a lost man or wife.

I love my job.....and I love my neighbours...Maybe I'm a Christian too?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Feb 14 - 04:20 PM

Yeah it is impressive. It is a HUGE sample size.

Have you ever studied statistics?

Pew has a great reputation for integrity and accuracy.

I would be happy to look at any poll you can find which backs up Musket's claim. I suspect that would be difficult. I believe Musket was being hyperbolic and outrageous. Entertainingly so, I recon.

I just went out and googled some data because folks were unjustly picking on Keith. I recon Troubadour can answer all of his questions about the Pew poll with a minute or two of research. I recon you could too, if you wanted.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 14 - 04:09 PM

35,000 out of 270 million.

0.013%. Highly representative.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Feb 14 - 02:30 PM

If you are actually looking to answer the question, you can start here.

Pew poll 35,000 Americans



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Europe

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 14 - 02:12 PM

Troubadour, my post of 16 Feb 14 - 11:37 AM gave the details of the polls.
They were reputable polls used by industry and governments.
They are the best figures available.

On what grounds do you question them?
Have you anything that contradicts them?
What is your point?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Feb 14 - 02:05 PM

Interesting strategy. Or you could ask musket for the data behind his assertion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 19 Feb 14 - 02:02 PM

"The "general population" mostly believe that there is a "spirit, God, or life force".
In Eu only 20% do not.
In US even fewer.

You were wrong to say that atheists are a majority in the Western world.
You are wrong again Musket."

Questions.

1. Size and demographics of sample polled in EU and US.
2. Precise question(s) posed
3. Locations from which sample drawn.
4. Independent assessment of the impartiality (or otherwise) of the polling organisation.

If the Poll were carried out by Fox News outside churches on Sunday mornings, do you reckon there might be room for doubt?.....

In the absence of such information, your positivity and generalisation are at best astonishing, at worst suspicious, Mr Infallible.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Feb 14 - 01:45 PM

I have a J45 from 1972.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Musket
Date: 19 Feb 14 - 12:31 PM

Hiya sweetikins! xxxx

Most men bang inanimate objects, so I hear. I must admit, visions of "ancient Irish arse" don't help. Liable to give me flashbacks.....



Dave. E45 is aqueous cream and can lead to stretching and contracting anyway. I still have a pot of skin cream made by the same people who make Fretfast. I put that on and. Leave it near the aga till it is soaked in and dry. Thinking on, it has to be a couple of years since I last did it on either skin. The cream pot has a sticker on it from CV Berry in Worksop. That means I bought it prior to 1987........

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Feb 14 - 09:28 AM

Ciarán Boyle taught me how to play it when he was still a schoolboy. In return I let him thrash me at pool at a festival. His late father Tommy was a good friend.







I think I let him thrash me. Thinking on, he probably didn't need my help.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Feb 14 - 08:36 AM

corncered, I didn't say the instramint can't be played. I said that no one wants to hear me play it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 14 - 08:36 AM

There is that strange noise again! I am sure it is a fart.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: GUEST,concerend
Date: 19 Feb 14 - 08:20 AM

BTW sweet cheeks, why bother banging inanimate objects when there are other more fun things wink? wink ?


Gnome you wanna use that cream to massage yer massive ego..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: GUEST,concerend
Date: 19 Feb 14 - 07:43 AM

Completely and thoroughly disagree with all of you. so called musicians.

The Bodhran in the hands of a skilled percussionist is a joy to the ears.Christy Moore apart, have none of you heard Kevin Crawford, John Joe Kelly, Mel Mercier?

BTWI was the one who showed Sean o'Riada the correct way to use the tension on the skin to get different sounds

It is obvious to me that all of you know the square root of feck all about music as you do about the very doubtful subject you all spout on about here interminably

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 14 - 06:47 AM

Wonder if E45 cream will moisturise a bodhran or should I use Olay?

D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Musket
Date: 19 Feb 14 - 06:30 AM

Mine hasn't been banged for a long time now. I check it and feed the skin from time to time, as I once had one that split. My son has taste, otherwise the bloody bodhran would be in Scouseville too. He has never nicked the banjo or semi banjos for that matter... Hope for him yet.

I too made strange noises when I used to play it. But the bodhran sounded ok.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Feb 14 - 04:20 AM

Should this thread not be moved to the music section?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 14 - 03:45 AM

For the record. I do not profess to play the bodhran any more than I play the tambourine or bones. I do own them and occasionally use them to produce strange noises. BTW my spelling checker suggested Bodhidharma for bodhran. From Wiki - "Bodhidharma is depicted as a rather ill-tempered, profusely bearded and wide-eyed barbarian." A bodhran player maybe?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 14 - 07:26 PM

He won't mind. After all, he's a fellow harmonica aficionado.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Feb 14 - 07:19 PM

DtG, It seems that Steve is trashing you and your bodhran.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 14 - 06:59 PM

"Serious bodhran player", conkers? Brilliant! Two oxymorons in a three-word phrase! No serious person possesses a bodhran unless his mother bought it for him one Christmas, and there are no bodhran players, only bodhran owners! Tsk!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 14 - 06:55 PM

Hran? Oh come on..

He bought it off some bod down the market. Must've got ripped off.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Feb 14 - 06:46 PM

It's a decoration concerened. Didn't I say that no one wants to hear me play it? Thank you fro your concern.

I'm pretty sure I can support my claim to Irish blood with other factors, drinking, tall tales and such.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 18 Feb 14 - 05:27 PM

WHAT!!!!!!HRAN? you nautical knobhead..you bought it cos it hAD PRETTY FLOWERS ON IT!!!???...Irish blood my ancient Irish arse!!! wot does it SOUND like..did you ever see any serious BODHRAN player such as Christy Moore play anything covered with flowers you goddamn imposter..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Feb 14 - 04:20 PM

Hran? Oh come on...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Feb 14 - 10:17 AM

Understandable. I bought my hran, because it has pretty celtic flowers on it and my Mom tells me I have Irish blood in my heritage. No one has ever responded in the affirmative when asked, do you want me to play it for you? While, "Is that your guitar? Can I hear it?" has occurred. :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Feb 14 - 09:53 AM

Oh yes, forgot my bodhran, tamborine and bones. Mental block I suppose :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Feb 14 - 09:43 AM

I figured I was the king of wasteful spending with 5 guitars and a bodhran. Seven guitars in student housing? When I was a student, I barely had room for myself and a stereo.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Feb 14 - 09:26 AM

I must admit that 27 is going it a bit. But who am I to question a divine power?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Musket
Date: 18 Feb 14 - 05:59 AM

You gotta have faith! although singing George Michael songs ain't going to get your beer bought for you....

As well as the fairly silly number (27) of guitars and single banjo, I appear to have amassed a banjo/ ukulele, banjolin, two mandolins, various gob irons including a chromatic one I gave up on, three violins, a viola, various whistles, two bodhrans and a dancing doll on a plank. Oh, and a broken rhythm pole.

Yet I usually just take the one guitar (Rainsong OM10) and occasionally the banjo out with me. I was classically trained on violin but broke my wrist and frustrated enough to hardly take them out. The viola is a better option for comfort but when you stretch the strings up to GDAE, you risk a sliced face.....

Just three guitars and the banjo are out on stands in my study. The rest are packed away in a box room. (Except for seven guitars, last seen in student digs in Liverpool Grrrr)

Fast considering letting some go, but for that, I'll have to stop buying the bloody things....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Feb 14 - 05:35 AM

I have 3 accordions, 2 concertinas, 2 guitars, an array of whistles, multiple gob irons and a host of things from various strange places that are either classed as musical instruments or weapons of mass discordance. I believe that I will be able to play something resembling a tune one day. I have faith. Hallelujah!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant Atheism Threads
From: Musket
Date: 18 Feb 14 - 04:58 AM

Too true. A couple of months ago, including the ones my youngest stole from me when I wasn't looking, grrrr... I decided I had far too many guitars.

And one banjo which is, of course, one too many.

So you know what I did last month?


That's right.

I bought a new guitar.

Be nice to have time to play the ^%#*!! thing.