BS: Church V State

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 02:48 PM

Nor even Lord Summerisle himself! But on this occasion he was in his Templar garb filming Ivanhoe for the BBC, c. 1997:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514cIcOOz2L.jpg

I even made him chuckle with my quote from Sir Walter Scott: Grey towers of Durham, yet well I love thy mixed and massive piles....

Which you'll find engraved on Prebends Bridge by The View, no doubt in memory of the sufferings of the Scottish POWs after The Battle of Neville's Cross.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 01:18 PM

You were doing well until that lat bit. Jack, but everyone knows that Dracula could not have gone in a church :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 11:59 AM

Durham Cathedral's a place close to my heart, but here's a tale.... After the Battle of Neville's Cross (1346) the building was used as POW camp for Scottish soldiers who proceeded to trash the place - burning whatever they could find to keep warm, smashing the heads of statues to heat them in the embers as pass round to keep their hands warm. The evidence of this is there for all to see; not the usual reformation vandalism we're used to weeping over.

Folklore records the prosonors left Prior Castel's famous clock untouched because it bears a prominent thistle. A canny Cathedral guide will point it was more likely because they needed it to know what time it was; a cannier one will tell you it was because the clock wasn't put there for another sixty years or more...

Folklore also records that whilst the prisoners' excrement was carried off and dumped into the Wear by a special team of medieval honey diggers, their urine pooled beneath the foundations of the solid bedrock of the Dunholme where it lay peaceably for over 600 years until the summer of 1976 when it was kicked off by the heat, necessitating the cathedral be closed until the problem could be sorted.

Folklore also records that I went into Durham Cathedral one day and engaged Christopher Lee in a conversation covering much of the above without recognising him....

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,#
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 11:26 AM

"The New World doesn't have the age of churches and cathedrals you're discussing . . ."

I disagree with that statement. The Mayan temples attest to structures being built for religious reasons. Whether the religion passes anyone's litmus test is another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 11:16 AM

The New World doesn't have the age of churches and cathedrals you're discussing, but it does have some beautiful structures. One U.S. architect, in particular, has a style that he has adapted for various locations to pull the out-of-doors into the building.

Fay Jones was from Arkansas and has built chapels around the US.

In New York City there are churches built at the time of U.S. founding fathers but one that I always enjoy visiting is small in scale but important in American history, mostly because of who is buried in the churchyard. Trinity Church has been on the site, in three different versions, since 1697. The current (third) church was completed in 1846.

This atheist is perfectly happy enjoying the history, art, and architecture of these structures.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 09:50 AM

If we're talking cathedrals Durham tops the list for me. Stunning way to frighten the masses.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 09:38 AM

"Compared to the monstrosity of the Anglican Cathedral"
Don't mind the Anglican Cathedral - straight out of H.P. Lovecraft - and it still isn't finished after 130 years!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 09:31 AM

There's a nice model of the Lutyens' design in the new Museum of Liverpool which is worth a look if ever you're passing...

http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/conservation/departments/models/lutyens/

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 09:19 AM

Compared to the monstrosity of the Anglican Cathedral it's a wee jewel. One of Liverpool's REAL three graces in my opinion - the other two being the Stanley Dock warehouse (a haunt of Dylan's by the look of it...) and the Tate & Lyle sugar silo...

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 08:53 AM

Have to say I find the Cathedral a remarkably ugly building
Much prefer Lutyens' original design , bit then again, I always was a traditionalist.
Seem to remember the crypt being totally devoid of the garishness of the main building, but then again, I was a little preoccupied!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 07:51 AM

6.24 it sound like you got a bit more than a holiday!!

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 07:22 AM

The crypt is an altogether different proposition from the main building I gather, though (as yet) I've never actually been in...

I lost mine in the wee Norman Church of Our Lady in Seaton Delaval.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,6.24
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 07:20 AM

That's unfortunate Jim C.Our Priest took me for a dirty weekend at Walsingham.Least I got a bit of an holiday.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 06:51 AM

"Paddy's Wigwam in Liverpool."
Lost my 'cherry' in the Crypt there just after it opened (hope that doesn't offend too many people).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 06:51 AM

"Paddy's Wigwam in Liverpool."
Lost my 'cherry' in the Crypt there just after it opened (hope that doesn't offend too many people).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 06:10 AM

"The translator is a commentator, and every commentator also adds something of himself towards the deepening of the matter, its explanation and emphasis. " ~~ Chaim Nachman Bialik

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 05:32 AM

I love the Wigwam, it excites the modernist in me whilst managing to be quite timeless too. Maybe because it was conceived in the same year I was?? I feel a similar empathy with the wholly secular Civic Centre in Newcastle.

When it comes to windows... there's a little old church in York - All Saints on North Street - which has The Pricke of Conscience window c. 1410. Just there - to wander in off the street and have it all to yourself...

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 05:09 AM

If it's windows you want Steve try the little church in Eyeries on the Beara peninsula in West Cork. Mainly secular and utterly brilliant. Very pretty village and the view from the back window of Causkeys Bar is fantastic.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 05:00 AM

I'm going off half-cock here, but one of my favourite church "insides" is Paddy's Wigwam in Liverpool. The circular layout feels very inclusive (not that I particularly wish to be "included", mind!), and the light coming in through the coloured windows on a sunshiny day is stunning. Not quite so taken with the wacky outside though! Salisbury is stunningly beautiful from outside. I didn't respond quite so positively to the inside, but then I love to let my subjectivity completely take me over on such occasions. The bishop is an old but now long-lost friend of ours. In June we saw the most beautiful little chapel we've ever seen, La Madonna Della Rocca near Taormina in Sicily, with its natural cave ceiling. Absolutely nothing to see from the outside, mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 04:50 AM

PS : Wells Cathedral:

Jack Blandiver

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 04:16 AM

Yup - so much to do, so little time! Hereford's something - then it's out on the trail of the Herefordshire Romanesque, the jewel of which is Kilpeck. First time I went I was expecting Rosslyn style hype - instead I found a few cows in a farmyard & had the place to myself for two hours. Then there's Much Marcle and (gulp!) the Templar church at Garway... The nearest we'll be getting this time is Worcester and Tewkesbury on the way down. The Holy Ghost at Crowcombe is a must for bench-end fans, and I just love St. Mary Magdelene's at Barwick trucked away behind Yeovil. Like I say - so much to do, so little time...

Altarnun! Never been, but always wanted to see the famous FIDDLER whose instrument matches the ones found on the Mary Rose. Nice BAGPIPER too. Note double chanter - one of several prototypes of the Cornish bagpipe...

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 04:09 AM

Have to agree with Jim regarding the Italian Chapel on Orkney, that really is a testament to peoples faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 03:53 AM

I remember being in Wells cathedral when an elderly American lady said, very loudly to her partner, "Gee, this sure is old. Must be Victorian."

I just kept quiet. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 03:52 AM

"It's a talking shop."
A talking shop with the power to block legislation and your description of the church fits thousands of other groups in Britain, from cyclists, to womens' institutes, to Freemasons.... only the others don't have the power of a mystical being to frightens people into believing behind it.
Not in any way a believer, but the most atmospherically beautiful place of worship I've ever been in is here and the most spectacular one is here - (if they ever got rid of that god-awful neon cross!!)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Musket musing
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 02:45 AM

True. You can see a garden is beautiful without thinking there are fairies living at the bottom of it. When Mrs Musket and her friends are in the ringing chamber giving it some ding dong, you can catch me wandering around, admiring the beauty and fascinated by the history.

Many who are blinkered by irrational superstition make the mental leap to assume that lack of delusion might somehow be to reject the part superstition played in shaping our culture. It's just that people did it, not their imaginary friend.

It says more about their insecurity than it does about rational people.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 02:40 AM

Or rather than 3% it is 26 actual seats! The percentage of course varies.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 02:30 AM

My point was Steve that the existence of the House itself is the issue to me. The fact that for historical reasons 3% of the seats are guaranteed to the Church of England is secondary. A much bigger proportion are guaranteed places for hereditary peers simply given seats for who their parents were. The rest of the seats are non elected placements made into life peers by the gvt of the day and even several of these would qualify for hereditary seats so it is another way to keep the establishment in. I am against the whole edifice so see the inclusion of a few bishops as neither here nor there. Plus other religions may wish for a guaranteed voice in the House (rather than individuals made into life peers) but would they be willing to have gvt interference over their own institution in return like there is over the CofE?? The CofS historically wasn't prepared to allow that and I suspect others wouldn't be either. I'd say enough with the tinkering around the issue, as Labour did, but go with the likes of the Nats who approve of the abolishing of the non-elected chamber completely and they have a policy of not accepting seats should they be offered unlike the other main parties who scramble for places.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 01:29 AM

And St. Nonna's at Altarnun , Cornwall. Beautiful Woodwork, much of from the 16th century.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 01:18 AM

Salisbury cathedral is one of my favourite places on earth. Just so breathtakingly beautiful. Also love Wells and Ely cathedrals.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 08:29 PM

Those last three being cathedrals!

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 07:05 PM

There's nothing I enjoy more than going into churches, from the tiniest village ones that can seat a couple of dozen people at best, right up to the greatest cathedrals. I think my favourite little church is St Michael's on top of Brentor on Dartmoor, though I also love St Enodoc's, near Rock in Cornwall, which has John Betjeman's grave in the lovely churchyard. This year so far we've done Bath Abbey, which is lovely. In the last couple of years we've also done Exeter and Salisbury and my favourite of all, Hereford.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 06:37 PM

St Swithin's it is! The steam railway chugs pleasantly through very nice countryside, all the stations decorated with tubs and troughs of cottage garden flowers and all the staff dressed the old way. It was me birthday treat in 2014, but because I'd been somewhat on the Prosecco the night before I found meself dipping in and out of slumber on the train in a most agreeable fashion, the chuffing of the steam engine having a most soporific effect. I'm sure the missus would love the sheer gentleness! I don't know about the blue plaque, but I'd recommend an hour or two at Porlock Weir if you can make it. A half-hour trot up the good path to the top of Dunkery Beacon, the highest point on Exmoor, is another lovely sojourn.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 06:06 PM

We have a village church near Bude that I'm told has remarkable bench ends, at Launcells, I'm ashamed to say that' I've never investigated!

Cheers, Steve. Went to Launcells years ago & got some bad pics, so thanks for the reminder. Nice wall paintings too. St. Swithin's I think - St. Swithin's day on Tuesday - here's hoping! Bude? That rings a bell too - pasties probably... Must check out that Minehead train though (remembering I'll be with my missus who can only take so much!) BUT, coincidentally, and wondrously, earlier today I was just reading about Minehead in Arthur C Clarke's intro to The Sentinel. I trust there's a blue plaque??

I have known several atheists who have ended up as "believers",

It's not a matter of belief, Ache - it's a matter of simply dying and being at one with the material Godless universe from which we sprung. As Carl Sagan said - we are star stuff. Thus we are born, and thus we die. This is what we are. This is what we do. With that in mind, we live with open & joyful hearts.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 05:34 PM

"I was born an atheist - I will die an atheist. It is not a matter of faith, it is a matter of fact and knowing".....I have known several atheists who have ended up as "believers", even I at seventy, am beginning to see the peace belief gives to someone very close to me.

You will never hear condemnation of "people of faith" from me.

Your remarks illustrate that you know very little about human psychology......if you did you would not be nearly as certain.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 05:20 PM

You will have nice time there, Jack. Don't just go to the church at Bishop's Lydeard: invest fifteen quid on a ride on the West Somerset steam railway from Bishop's Lydeard to Minehead return. Lovely it is and the trip will take you back in time. We have a village church near Bude that I'm told has remarkable bench ends, at Launcells, I'm ashamed to say that' I've never investigated!

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 04:10 PM

After all, fancy him giving you a mighty brain that you then refuse to use

And there, ladies and gentlemen, is the matter succinctly laid out for once and all.

Stupid is as stupid does,
World without end, Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 04:08 PM

Your tomcat could pass for a Siberian hamster and get best of class, if he keeps his big mouth shut and like that one on the adverts, tries acting more dog.

Passing off some on here as rational? They'd have to spend hours in make up first.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 04:05 PM

"Posting anonymously then agreeing with yourself? Rather odd Keith?"

Not if its the posts I think you mean Musket. How about a link to one of these 'we' referring to UKIP posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 03:53 PM

Musket me old love, I would think you could suggest whatever you wish but my tomcat has more chance of winning Crufts than you have of getting any honesty from that direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 03:36 PM

Posting anonymously then agreeing with yourself? Rather odd Keith?

Lots of posts back in the archives from when you said "we" when referring to UKIP.

Nothing to do with this thread of course, but personally, I don't like being called a liar. In fact, if you can't understand the membership rules of Mudcat, and the moderators don't give a flying fuck for your abuse, may I suggest you stop your little games?

Decent respectable people wish to use Mudcat, not just you and your good friend Akenaton.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 03:35 PM

Atheism isn't a faith - it's the default position of objective humanity. We are all born godless & faithless, blissfully innocent of bullshit and eager in our wide-eyed preparedness for the wonders of learning as we come into cosmic consciousness. Then we get hit where it hurts by religious idiocy and the manifold evils and abuses of The God Concept.

Just as we have lungs eager to breathe clean fresh air only to find ourselves in a house full of smokers, so our minds are eager to seize upon the glories of art, language, music, science - only to find ourselves in a culture polluted by religion...

I was born an atheist - I will die an atheist. It is not a matter of faith, it is a matter of fact and knowing. And it's easy to show why there is no God because we can point at the moment in human history when they made him up. Far from ubiquitous, the concept flounders in the mire of righteous subjectivism.

*

That said, I am SO looking forward to spending a few days of our up-coming Somerset holiday exploring the late-medieval bench-end tradition, and churches great and small. I will wander absorbed the Cathedrals of Wells & Salisbury and seek out the queerest religious imagery ever wrought in the church of The Holy Ghost at Crowcombe; not to mention St, Mary Magdelene at Bishops Lydeard wherein dances this singular fellow:

Bench End, Bishops Lydeard; June 2012. Pic : Blandiver; atheist by Birth, not delusion

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 03:07 PM

Oh, stoppit, moderator. Why not just recognise harmless ribbing for what it is when you see it. Next thing, we'll be getting one of those moaning mudelf addenda complaining how overworked you all are.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,XX
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 03:04 PM

I suggested right at the start that it was because they represented the views of a 'constituency' as in "a group of people with shared interests or political opinions" Just like peers with experience in media, the arts, trade unions, academic disciplines, business etc. It's a talking shop.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 02:52 PM

"She wouldn't be there based on her faith"
Why would she be there
There are many thousands of people and groups in Britain - probable with far more qualifications and certainly far more representative of "real people"
Nobody has yet attempted to show why the Church - any church - should have representatives in Government - which says as much as there is to be said on the subject
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,XX
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 02:38 PM

She wouldn't be there based on her faith. She would be there due to having (or having had) a leadership role within a group of people with shared interests and shared views on some political issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 01:51 PM

Last night I spent a pleasant evening, in a good Restaurant, having a meal with a very good friend of mine and her husband. My friend is a Vicar , her husband shares her faith.

During the course of the night the conversation, as it does over several hours, varied between numerous topics and much as I love the lady I would not want her to be a representative in the House of Lords merely on the basis of her faith.

I am quite sure she would make a valuation contribution to any discussion at any level but I could not sanction a position for her in the House on Lords based on her faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 01:40 PM

Yet another post lost......or deleted, despite being a direct and civil reply to Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 12:43 PM

Atheism is a bit odd really. I don't really have solid evidence that there's no God. All I know is that he hasn't got any that there is one, but at least I have reason and rationality my side. My notion fits all we know about the laws of nature but his doesn't fit any of it. But I don't need to dismiss or demolish his argument because I can't. As for dashing his hopes, nah, let him keep them. His cause is hopeless enough as it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 12:41 PM

"He has been pushing that lie for a long time."
Give it a rest Keith
You are one of the most consistently dishonest members of this forum, both in your claims and in your interpretation of what other people say.
"Do as you would be done by" isn't a bad motto to get through life with, it really isn't
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Church V State
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 12:32 PM

Hmmm. All Google can find is claims of Keith being a UKIP supporter or supporting UKIP policies. Claims from Musket.

Yes.
He has been pushing that lie for a long time.