more session rudeness

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Phil J
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:32 PM

Yeah booked ? In what capacity, to take over a session and exclude others ? Grow up..

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:30 PM

If CAF were booked then it seems like a bit of a misunderstanding. Best of luck to you -you did sound really good!

I think it's quite a commonle held view that melodeon players of all ages have a bit of a reputation of "jumping in" at a session if a nanosecond is left after a previous contribution.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:27 PM

I thought the thread would tell a tale
Of those who stories loved to weave;
I stumbled in by accident
On purpose I shall leave.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:23 PM

Mr O'Neill, I can only apologise that you felt put out by being excluded in the only session... I wasn't there so I can only empathise with you as it is frustrating... everyone seems to always want to be the centre of attention ;)

You maybe an extremely talented performer and I do look forward to hearing you but you cant please everyone all the time and likewise everyone cant please you all the time that's diversity for ya...

Secondly, I don't know how the Big Session operates but for years my Dad, sister and friends have been asked by organisers to perform and don't ever seem to even get a mention in a daily newsletter. They do it all the time.

Dont worry, be happy :)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:22 PM

Tis a metaphore young 'un , perhaps you may understand such advanced use of language as time progresses

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,'cool as folk' brigade
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:20 PM

Didnt realise Charley was feeding me?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:17 PM

I have quietly made the same suggestion elsewhere, Irishenglish...

:)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Phil J
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:17 PM

I could not have put it better myself irish !

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,'cool as folk' brigade
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:16 PM

Charley, Why not start your own session? would solve your problem?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: irishenglish
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:15 PM

Uh oh...to quote the Oysters, Here Comes The Flood! Cool as folk brigade, I wasn't there, so I have no judgement, but don't bite off the hand that may feed you in the future.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:13 PM

They are telling the truth - they were booked to play to add atmosphere to the non-stage areas.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,'cool as folk' brigade
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:12 PM

Yes Phil we were sat on the field with instruments strewn round. It seemed inpractical to walk to the camp site to put our instruments away to get them back again an hour later? I didn't realise sitting with your belongings in a field made you the bees knees but i shall in future make more effort not to be folk at a folk festival. Again terribly sorry if we offended you. Do you want a T-shirt to?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Graham and Jo
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:07 PM

There are different kinds of sessions and sometimes musicians don't realise the effect they are having, but it sounds like these did realise and it was rude. Lets hope that as they get older they will loose the arrogant edge and realise that an open session is not a competition but an opportunity to share music together. Normaly in the folk world even top players are friendly and welkoming and want to hear what others play. We've had great experiences in Ireland.
Come to the Tiger at Beverley festival and there will be several sessions going on at once. You can take your pick.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Charley O'Neill
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:06 PM

There was only one session Mr Diamond, I fancied a bit of a play and was excluded, simple as that...

And kids, if you were booked to play , why weren't you mentioned in the program , or doing a proper gig?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:02 PM

ooooh oooooh oooooh... who was at the Marquee? Anyone I know? Probably hehehe...

The funny thing is... Charlie, you chat about experience at sessions!!! I've been dragged and gone to sessions for 30+ years, some where there are a few people that think that they have magical fingers that everyone want to demonstrate on whatever instrument they are playing.

I have to admit that some of them really do have magic fingers (ok... brass blowin skills Nic!) which leaves you with the choices (IMHO your best choice)sit back and enjoy the sound or leave and find a session you can join along with. It's easy...

You are at risk of sounding like a grumpy ol' man who complains about a programme on the telly when you could save everyone the misery and just change the channel!!!

Peace and love people...

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Phil J
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:59 PM

I also attended this festival, if you were booked to play in the bar all day, why were you posing on the grass with instruments strewn around you and thinking you were the bees knees half the time. well done, from what I saw of you and from what I have now heard,you have now proved yourself as very rude, immature and selfish individuals.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:55 PM

Ah - i guess they have decided to respond.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,'cool as folk' brigade
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:49 PM

Bovvered!!! We were actually booked there to sit and play in the bar all day cos dare i suggest some pople enjoy our music? Sorry we ruined your life, Wasn't intentional but if you'd like a complimentary "cool as folk" T-shirt send your address to [e-mail] and dont forget to mention your size. :-)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:44 PM

Several younger folkies were following a thread a while back about Morris Offspring (several of them dance or play for morris - it gets you into festivals for free). But unless it's a special thread, the ones I know don't really bother. I know they're now aware of this one. Whether they choose to contribute is another matter.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: irishenglish
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:39 PM

A few moments escape? How about my entire working day! Especially these days!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:36 PM

"well, the chaps in question are a bit young for all this palaver"

I have it on good authority (well, a couple of 'em told me) that some of the younger trad musicians and singers do occasionally read Mudcat, but doing so quickly makes them lose the will to live...

Jack:"So what forums DO they read?"

Gave me my first decent laugh of the day. Not everyone's as sad as we are, you know! And not everyone's got a day job they need to escape from for a few moments. Eh? Eh?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:22 PM

well, the chaps in question are a bit young for all this palaver.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:20 PM

I don't know about not being caught dead on but while most people I know from clubs and sessions know of and make use of resources such as John Chambers and the dt on the Internet, few (I can't think of one off hand) participate regularly in folk forums.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:15 PM

Acorn, several of them have already been noticed.

And yes - they are VERY good.

As you say, the session doesn't really lend itself to a lot of chat, and i'm sure they weren't being deliberately rude. As I said at the beginning of the thread, they meet at festivals over the course of the year. And when they meet, they play together almost constantly. There's going to be a synergy there which may come across as insularity.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:09 PM

I was at the "Big Session" on Saturday and attended the session in the marquee for a couple of hours -on that occasion the people mentioned were only there in smaller numbers - I did manage to get talking to them in between tunes so they were not completely anti social-often sessions don't exchange too many niceties- they were very young (and VERY good!)and obviously not fully into session etiquette as yet so they will mellow with age. I get the impression they will "get noticed" before long and this will cause them to ease off the throttle a bit. It was bad mannered but I was prepared to make a few allowances.

The "Big Session" is only two years old and it normally takes a fringe a bit of time to develop - there were signs of informal things getting started in the main bar.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 11:58 AM

they don't really participate in any folk forums that I know of. Or blog. Or even talk about the politics of folk. They are too busy playing. :)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 11:56 AM

So what forums DO they read? Their own blogs?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 11:45 AM

"It's a poor show by the the session organisers. If it put Charley off, how many other people did it put off? It can put people off entire festivals, as they'll go away with the idea that the place is unwelcoming. Because at the end of the day, if the session organisers aren't going to bother their backsides, no one indvividual will feel as if they can say anything either. There isn't much else you can do but walk out."

this is what I was trying to convey earlier. The nature of a festival like Big Session is that it provides space for people to start sessions, and may prime a few musicians to get things started, but it tends to be a more spontaneous affair than the organised or "led" sessions you'll find at many festivals with a less high-profile and commercial line-up. So there probably WASN'T a session organiser.

"No word from the big session rotters to whom this thread was about, stand up & be counted!!!"

That's a bit of a hiding to nothing, Jaques. It isn't like the whole of the folk world reads this forum. I'm pretty sure I know who the group of young musicians were - and know they wouldn't be caught dead on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: irishenglish
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 11:40 AM

Rudeness and frustration aside-how was The Big Session Festival itself, or did this spoil your fun of the whole thing?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 11:37 AM

Use explosives...... works for me!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 11:22 AM

Be of good cheer. It takes some folks a painfully long time to learn that they are, in truth, NOT the center of the universe. While they are gaining this bit of intelligence, however, it is sometimes necessary to shun them and, if they persist beyond tolerance, throttle the bastards with used guitar strings and the like.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,jaques
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 11:17 AM

No word from the big session rotters to whom this thread was about, stand up & be counted!!!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: theleveller
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 10:38 AM

On the other hand.....

...mrsleveller and I aren't used to playing and singing in sessions and singarounds so, at Rydale Folk Weekend, we just slipped in to have a look and sat on the edge to listen. No way! We were practically dragged into the circle, handed instruments (before I went out and got our own) and made to have a go, given huge applause and interested questions were asked about the stuff I'd written from a couple of reasonably well-known professional singer/songwriters (to the extent that I was encouraged to enter the song competition later in the day).

A totally wonderful experience.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 10:28 AM

20 mins solid of Shepherd's Hey always comes in useful. If they ruin your night why not ruin theirs?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 10:11 AM

I usually carry an instrument or two around with me that can function as an equalizer.

When there's an egomaniac who likes showing off how they can go from G minor to E major in every set, I'll get out something that can play a blindingly fast reel in E flat minor and look at them pityingly when they can't follow.

Or when they're going way too fast for most of the players in the room, get out the C melody saxophone and play a few simple waltzes in easy keys, very slowly and VERY LOUDLY. That thing can shout down an accordion.

Sometimes the show-offs get the point if you can do something that both gets all the players involved and catches the appreciative attention of the audience. If your two-minute tune or song gets silence and a round of applause when their preceding half-hour of amphetamine-fuelled hyper-syncopated Irish-Quebecois-Balkan reels was received with nothing but disinterested chatter, they may come round to the idea of letting other people in.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Jacques
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 09:55 AM

So, who were these big session upstarts ? Anyone know 'em ? Two sides to every story and all that, maybe they'd like to state their case...

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: lady penelope
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 09:39 AM

If a session is specifically advertised as being open to all (as the session in question was) it really should have been kept along those lines.

No one session can satisfy every musicians tastes or wants, eg being a singer who doesn't play an instrument, I don't tend to go to sessions that are dominated by instruments. But that's the point. If I'm given the idea that what I'm attending is a singers session and it ends up being dominated by instrumentalists, I'm gonna be p*ssed off. Same goes for the Session Charley was at.

It's a poor show by the the session organisers. If it put Charley off, how many other people did it put off? It can put people off entire festivals, as they'll go away with the idea that the place is unwelcoming. Because at the end of the day, if the session organisers aren't going to bother their backsides, no one indvividual will feel as if they can say anything either. There isn't much else you can do but walk out.

Bit sad really.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Trev
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 09:32 AM

I once went to a session in an Irish pub in Helsinki. I was invited and I still asked for permission to join the session. Myself and the resident bodhran players took turns so as not to upset the others.

I hadn't played for a while and so I was amazed when I kept losing the rythym which the piper was playing (what do you mean "how did I notice?"). Eventually I put the drum down and said to the other player that I wasn't going to play as I was obviously so out of practice and I was probably putting the others off.

He replied, "Oh, don't worry, he always does that. That piper hates bodhran players so he messes up the rythym to make you look bad". Well, it worked. I didn't bother sitting in on another session.

Another time, in O'Donoghue's, Dublin, I asked if I could join a session and was permitted to. At one point there was a break and I asked if I could sing a song. As I did it turned out another singer was about to as well. A whistle player snapped "No!" at me, but the other singer (possibly the session leader) said it was OK and let me sing. After the song I spoke to the whistle player and apologised if I'd interrupted anyone. He snarled back that I should have said which key I was going to sing in so the others could accompany me.

I told him that I didn't know what key I was in... I'm a singer, not a musician... He snarled back that a "Real" singer would have known. I thanked the other musicians for their hospitality and left them, and the man who has the key of his instrument printed on it, to go out and busk (rather profitably) in Grafton Street.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Mooh
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 09:21 AM

In my limited experience, when a session is a group of individuals it seems to run more democratically, but when it's dominated by a group, a band, with their own agenda, it's hard to get a note in. Walk away.

As for loud instruments, the ever present guitar has a hard time soloing with banjos, pipes, whistles, and others who won't give way. Sometimes it doesn't matter what instrument one plays, there are just too many players at a time, and too few with the good grace to sit one or two out. Walk away.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 09:11 AM

I always thought the whole point of a 'Session' is for it to be Inclusive

I don't think so and for regular events I tend to aim for more specialised (Irish instrumental), don't enjoy the worst you can get from off beat thumpers, shakers, prefer that 1/2 the night is not taken up by singing, etc.

I think of them as places for people shared interests and tastes to get together and with each having it's own ways.

It could well be that a festival session might be better by or need to cater for everything but I don't see that as the way all sessions should be.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Leadfingers
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 08:49 AM

Its Funny , but I always thought the whole point of a 'Session' is for it to be Inclusive , NOT exclusive ! Hopefully we will continue to be Inclusive at The Newt in Sidmouth this year .

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: kendall
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 08:47 AM

I encountered one of those egomaniacs at a bluegrass festival. He was playing fiddle for a band, and the mandolin player was new to the game, but she had her break all practiced and could hardly wait for her break to come around. When it did, this fiddler stepped right up to the mike and started sawing away. She was heartbroken, I could see that and it pissed me off. I stood up and yelled "Back off asshole".
He hasn't spoken to me since, but she has.And so has the rest of the band.
If you allow this sort of behavior it only gets worse.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Gedpipes
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 08:04 AM

...Betsyatwork
what do you do when you are at home? You never seem to be doing any feckin work ;-))
Blue skies
Ged

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Betsy at work
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:50 AM

You've got it off your chest Charley - I'm with you 100 % - now take GedPipes advice.
In addition , you will have a switch on your body somewhere.
Switch it to " Positive ", then start smiling, and shout "Fuck'em all ", by which time you should be feeling considerably better .

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:40 AM

x thread - there was a whole discussion about this, hence the ironic comment from Jack Campin!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:35 AM

Bit silly that. Pipes range from instruments that could sort of overpower everyone else to the gentle.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,charley o'neill
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:30 AM

In all seriousness, bagpipes were not allowed ! They were listed in the 'do's and don'ts' as being too loud ( not that I can play them)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:23 AM

But which ones?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:21 AM

Looks like the answer would have been to bring a set of bagpipes, then.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:20 AM

Sesiwn Fawr