BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:28 PM

Disparate threads from the east that will not be countenanced in the western media.

The great game continues until we all attend the final barbecue.

Who benefits??????? The truth is a riddle wrapped in an enigma.


http://www.unz.com/tsaker/a-truly-historical-month-for-the-future-of-our-planet/

I find it more than a little outlandish but there are a few relevant gems tucked away(in my opinion)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:17 PM

So just who is saying it definitely the Russians then, bobad? If you can find a serious source who says it is definitely the Russians, let us know who it is. Until then I stand by my statement.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:04 PM

hardened red under the bed fanatics.

When they start trotting out this kind of shit it's clear evidence that they've lost the debate.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 02:57 PM

Dave,
Just that there is an element of doubt in the minds of all but a few hardened red under the bed fanatics.

Who are these people?
You say that May and the government have doubts.
I just say that I support them on this.
So, who is it you disagree with?
Not me clearly.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 02:28 PM

When someone is convinced enough to take the case to the ICJ we can move on from very likely. Until then it is just political posturing.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 02:27 PM

What is a fact, is Boris and May do not act in a way that encourages me to trust them...!!!
O ye of little faith!

"“Lies sound like facts to those who've been conditioned to mis-recognize the truth.”

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 02:12 PM

Keith - you do tend to get lost in your own over-intellectualising, and leaps to wrong headed conclusions...

[there are far more crude ways of stating this observation...]

Few her are adamantly stating either the Russians definitely dunnit, or definitely didn't dunnit...

How can we without adequate facts...???

...that is why cautious sceptisicm is best advisable...

What is a fact, is Boris and May do not act in a way that encourages me to trust them...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 02:00 PM

Dave, so when you said, "Not everyone who has the known facts is convinced so there is an element of doubt." you meant like May and the government.

That is OK then because I support them as does your party.
They are convinced enough to accuse the Russians of lying and taking punitive action against them.
So quite convinced actually. Not much doubt actually.
In fact, "no plausible alternative explanation."

So Dave, our positions are the same.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 01:56 PM

Sorry, well find anyone who says they are certain etc.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 01:52 PM

You have absolutely no knowledge of what evidence they have.

Yes I have. The knowledge that no one to date can say with certainty that the Russians did it. If they had that evidence they would say they know who did it. Not that it is very likely.

As to just who doubts it. Well, anyone who says they are certain. Everyone else has doubts. Note, this is not saying the Russians did not do it. Just that there is an element of doubt in the minds of all but a few hardened red under the bed fanatics.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 01:51 PM

Steve,
. There would be no point whatsoever in their withholding that information from us

It is a crime. Evidence is usually withheld until a trial or enquiry.
The details of how Alexander Litvinenko was murdered did not emerge for months.

The EU governments are sufficiently convinced to take punitive action against Russia.

Like Keir Starmer and presumably your party, I support the action taken by UK and EU.

Why don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 01:14 PM

If Keith really believes that there's no element of doubt, all I can say is that he'd have made a great lynch mob leader. Or a great kangaroo court judge.

If there was no element of doubt, Keith, the politicos would be saying to us that the Russians definitely did it (not "highly likely did it") and here's how we know. There would be no point whatsoever in their withholding that information from us. But they are not withholding information because, as yet maybe, or maybe never, there isn't any. They are simply plying us with anti-Russian propaganda that hardly even amounts to decent circumstantial evidence in the hope that it will feed into the anti-Russian prejudice that has been groomed into us and softened us up for decades. JFK has a lot to answer for.

Still, I suppose we don't need gas as much in the summer anyway. I'm stocking up on barbie charcoal and praying for sunshine.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 01:04 PM

In a lightbulb moment sat on the bog I recalled I had to sign the 'official secrets act' once or twice *
when I worked for civil service departments long time ago in one of my previous lives...

In this 21st century age of the internet and social media,
that seems such a quaint old non disclosure restraint to keep the truth from public scrutiny and debate...


[* clerical officer in a benefits office,
and wheelchair pusher and special toilet duties in an artificial limbs centre...

To think I am contravening state secrecy laws by disclosing I had to hold papier mache bottles for armless blokes to piss in...???]

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 01:02 PM

More abuse. From fester and alein

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9TIO4U_eHI

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 12:49 PM

Who? The PM can only say the evidence is likely. Pay attention or sit on the naughty step!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 12:26 PM

Dave,
Not everyone who has the known facts is convinced so there is an element of doubt.

Who?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 12:11 PM

I'd like this thread to be a good natured mix of on topic debate,
and irreverent banter to keep us amused when news developments
and new revalations about the incident are thin on the ground...

so far, this aint such a bad thread, folks arn't too combative for discomfort....................... [yet...]

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 12:03 PM

The serial gobshite strikes again. This thread was moderately civilised til he popped up with his usual inanities.

"Isn't self abuse a mortal sin?" Are you speaking from personal experience?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 12:02 PM

Ask a tory...

Tories are quite familiar with deceased animals - at least pig's heads...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 11:44 AM

Is Flagellation a form of self abuse? Especially when it involves a dead horse or is that considered aggravated necrophilia..... I'm sure some expert on here can give a definitive opinion

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 11:33 AM

"a claymore, to smite the ignorant."
Isn't self abuse a mortal sin?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 11:14 AM

.. or pea shooters in the case of May and Boris taking on big bear Russia in hyped up stage managed fall out..

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 10:34 AM

Yese it is a claymore, to smite the ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Stanron
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 10:20 AM

Iains wrote: Although neanderthal man is extinct,some of the posting here would suggest not all have reached the exalted rank of Homo sapiens. Perhaps they represent the missing link.

This sword is two edged.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 08:30 AM

No event occurs in isolation.
1)The brexiteer politicians are exceedingly limp-wristed when it comes to forging a brexit agreement. Their commitment is extremely "fragile"
2)Putin was up for re-election just before the story broke.
3)There has been much united EU action since the story broke in support of the British stance.
4)This has enabled much babbling on about the harm to our joint security if we sever ties (if you believe that suggest you return to reading books about Janet and John)

Most exquisite timing to poke putin in the eye and make the case for abandoning brexit on security grounds.

Food for thought: We expel Russian spies, Russia expels EU diplomats.
Noe come on. who is telling the porkies here?
The story has not even evolved with any degree of credibility. They havebeen making it up as they go along. Either that or they are complete cretins.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 08:21 AM

They currently have no evidence that hasn't already been put out. I know it, you know it, everybody knows it. Any decisive evidence would have been gleefully put out straight away, if for nothing else to shut up doubters like me.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 08:16 AM

Circumstantial evidence at best.

You have absolutely no knowledge of what evidence they have. Your statement is laughable and revealing.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 08:01 AM

Posts here should not be read while drinking. Keyboards may be harmed by laughing.

Every time Iains discourages the belief that Russia is involved, a punchline response comes along that deserves publication in the Atlas of Comedic Media Exploitation ACME. Robomatic, Anti-Bot humour may well be a grand automatic defense against Russian chaos propaganda.

We have some great examples from Guccifer 2 and Iains that are simple propoganda but classic. I think we should list them all together for clarity.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 08:01 AM

The facts are obtained by deductive reasoning.

Not facts in this case. Circumstantial evidence at best. Which is why the politicians are being careful to use terms like highly likely. If they had facts they would have been certain. Highly likely is not a certainty.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 07:58 AM

Although neanderthal man is extinct,some of the posting here would suggest not all have reached the exalted rank of Homo sapiens. Perhaps they represent the missing link.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 07:49 AM

Believing everything politicians tell us is silly.

The fact that they are asking for a second opinion on the composition of the nerve agent indicates that some are not sure.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 07:42 AM

The best that the rest can come up with is highly likely.

There are very few absolutes in life and none in these situations. The facts are obtained by deductive reasoning. The facts in this case have convinced all who are privy to them enough for them to act upon them. Even if the person who planted the nerve agent were to confess, those whose aim is to discredit the UK government would not accept his word making him out to be a stooge of.........(take your pick). It's pretty obvious how this game is played.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 07:23 AM

Dave,
Not everyone who has the known facts is convinced so there is an element of doubt.

Who?

The line that it is absolutely certain seems to be politically motivated.

And every EU country is in on it!
That is just silly.

Steve,
The best the EU can do is "highly likely" and their "appropriate action" consists of the usual pointless shuffling of diplomats

The expulsion of diplomats and the withdawal of the EU ambassador is never done on mere suspicion. It shows that guilt is being assumed.

Oh, the certainty of the faithful in the face of adversity...

Of course there is evidence not yet in the public domain.
Do you think that the massive police operation and security services have not found anything?!
Do you think that the general type of the agent used is all that the scientists have found?

You statement that all the evidence was in the public domain was laughable Steve.

the best our hallowed leaders can (non-unanimously - ask Mr Tsipras) come out with is that it's "highly likely."

Also that "there is no plausible alternative" and they are proceeding on the assumption that it is true.
And not just "our hallowed leaders" but every government in the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 07:13 AM

Yet those who do have the facts that we don't are convinced

Not everyone who has the facts is convinced.

The best that the rest can come up with is highly likely.

Now, that is funny.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 07:09 AM

Not everyone who has the known facts is convinced so there is an element of doubt.

Yet those who do have the facts that we don't are convinced........funny that.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 07:07 AM

"Dave, It seems to be conclusive enough for the EU governments, who have accepted that Russia did it and are taking appropriate action over it."

You really don't get this politics lark, do you, Keith? The best the EU can do is "highly likely" and their "appropriate action" consists of the usual pointless shuffling of diplomats. Vlad must be quaking in his boots. And they have not "accepted it." They say it's "highly likely." Do you know the difference? How many times do you have to be told not to do this, Keith?

Me: "It's crystal clear that there is no evidence implicating Russia that isn't already in the public domain"

Keith: "Of course there is."

Oh, the certainty of the faithful in the face of adversity...

Do you know why I said that, Keith (and do reread Iains' post)? It's really simple. In spite of everything, the best our hallowed leaders can (non-unanimously - ask Mr Tsipras) come out with is that it's "highly likely." Translator's note for you, Keith: "We're still desperately scrabbling around to find out a better way of pinning this on the Ruskies, but as things stand we'll all have to accept that the best evidence we have is that this would be just typical of those Russians so they must have highly likely dunnit. And for decades now we've managed to get the people to hate Russia so that should do it for now. "

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 06:57 AM

Not everyone who has the known facts is convinced so there is an element of doubt. The line that it is absolutely certain seems to be politically motivated.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 06:55 AM

Your link is to the song "I Believe."
I find EU's liberal and democratic governments more believable than Putin.
Why don't you Ians, Dave, Steve, Rag?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 06:23 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuHFQ7KZOKA

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 06:10 AM

300
Since you mention Alexander Litvinenko, he was also murdered here by the Russian state, and they denied that too.
Their agent we wanted extradited and charged with murder is now in elected office under Putin.
You can give no credence to their denials over this.
I believe the liberal democratic governments of the EU on this.
I do not believe Putin.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 06:07 AM

There has never ben such an attack.
Nerve agent has never been used before.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 05:05 AM

"Ians, there has never been such an attack before and mistakes were made early on in assessing the risks."

List of attacks:

Alexander Litvinenko
Anna Politkovskaya
Natalia Estemirova
Stanislav Markelov and Anastasia Baburova
Boris Nemtsov
Boris Berezovsky
Paul Klebnikov
Sergei Yushenkov

" and mistakes were made early on in assessing the risks"
aka ramping up Russian phobia and political grandstanding!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 04:25 AM

Dave, It seems to be conclusive enough for the EU governments, who have accepted that Russia did it and are taking appropriate action over it.

Ians, there has never been such an attack before and mistakes were made early on in assessing the risks.
Just a couple of days ago another person needed traetment.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 04:19 AM

If we work on the basis that all evidence is known to the leaders of the government, including the opposition cabinet, then we can only conclude that the available evidence is not enough to convince everybody. It seems to be far from conclusive.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 04:06 AM

Questions, questions!
Might have to toddle off down the rabbit hole for answers.
Who was the guilty party?
The park bench?
The restaurant?
The pub?

"At first, they thought it might have been an opioid. Forty-eight hours later the counter terrorism police took the lead in the investigation. And then 24 hours after that they stepped forward to say they knew the "specific nerve agent" it was. Yet, it was only 48 hours after that when the British army was sent in, providing pictures of soldiers in protective suits removing cars and securing gravestones.

If there was at no point any risk to public safety -- as health officials insisted from the start -- these images risked looking like they served a political purpose by making the threat seem severe and the military the required response.
And then finally, an entire week later, and four days after the agent has been identified, 500 locals who went to the pub or restaurant are told to wash their clothes and themselves."

Are we playing charades here?

Answers on a postcard please!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:46 AM

Steve,
First, you hate the EU so this sudden alliance you seem to have found is a very temporary marriage of convenience. Second, you are a Tory and therefore disapprove of liberals.

My EU views and politics are irrelevant to this.
Stop trying to make it personal again.

It's crystal clear that there is no evidence implicating Russia that isn't already in the public domain,

Of course there is. Nothing has been released from the police or security services investigations, or technical information from the scientists.

You choose to believe Putin over EU governments.
What in his background makes that a sensible choice?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:42 AM

I think we have just had a failure of not responding to, defending and self justifying, every single minute pedantic disagreement since time began.

Are you keeping count PFR?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:37 AM

Pfr,
If Keith can show the self discipline to keep his contributions to this debate brief and concise, to the point of this topic,

My posts are always short. Much shorter than, say, Jim's.

On the closed thread I stuck to the issue until you and others switched to making false accusations against me personally.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 03:24 PM

The Scottish play is relevant?

Id look to Coinneach Odhar Mckenzie for the outcome

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 03:14 PM

Take it from me. It ain't just poundland epoxy. Maybe they could use cheap epoxy for the clean up and encapsulation of the {Novichokt} agent.