BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 02:53 PM

So this novichok tackle is a bit like Poundland epoxy glue. Nowt happens until you mix both bits. Except that with the Poundland glue the two parts mysteriously communicate with each other as they lie neglected in t'shed drawer for a month or two, meaning that if you ever wanted to use it for a second time, you've 'ad it, mate. Like music, life is a constant mystery.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 02:48 PM

oh... and a word I forgot to type in my cautiously sceptical, and not the least paranoid conspiracy, analysis
of tory govt involvement, and all military emergency services hands on deck chemical clear up...

"STAGED"



Reminding somewhat of far fetched 1960s "The Avengers" episodes...???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 02:29 PM

btw...

If the post deleting gods have taken an interest in this thread...

when I say "In this thread I would like to see a total absence of Keith's overlong repetative circular screeds
responding to, defending and self justifying, every single minute pedantic disagreement since time began."

It really ought be as a result of Keith taking responsibility and showing self discipline to not type them in the fist place..
ideally that, and not mods deleting them...

Thank you very much....

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 02:22 PM

Fillet of a fenny snake,
In the cauldron boil and bake;
Eye of newt and toe of frog,
Wool of bat and tongue of dog,
Adder's fork and blind-worm's sting,
Lizard's leg and howlet's wing,
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.

And now about the cauldron sing,
Live elves and fairies in a ring,
Enchanting all that you put in.

Obfuscation rules ok



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/22/andrei-zheleznyakov-soviet-scientist-poisoned-novichok

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 02:21 PM

From the moment this incident broke on the news..
I accept there is at least a 50/50 plausibility that Russia dunnit,
with or without the direct command and involvement, or knowledge, of Putin...???

However, at the same time I find far too many things far too fishy regarding our tory government's 'investigation'
and motives for exploiting this emergency...

I could be persuaded to take seriously the possibility that Russia may have dunnit,
but our government [or maybe other plausible state/corporate suspects] planned and set it in motion via covert Russian contacts...??????

Who has most to gain...!!!???


All this wacky conspiracy intregue puts me in the mood to enjoy a mini spy movie festival
while the mrs is away visiting her family...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 02:14 PM

Hmmmm. Looks like the post I tried to reference has disappeared. It was not the one from Steve I was referring to but one from Keith whinging about everyone getting at him. Looks like either the forum fairies are busy or I dreamt it!

C'est la vie as they say in Cleckheaton.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 02:08 PM

Huh...?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 02:07 PM

"Of course there is"? Absolute rubbish. If there was solid evidence that Russia did it we'd be told. We haven't got past "highly likely" or synonymous expressions for three bloody weeks. And if you want people to be nice to you stop calling those who disagree with your clearly-misguided notions "conspiracy nuts."

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 01:53 PM

By the way, to say that I will accept that Russia did it only when I have real evidence does not make me a "conspiracy nut." So don't be so bloody rude.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 01:51 PM

"I believe all those democratically elected, liberal, EU governments over the conspiracy nuts."

Well of course belief is generally achieved without evidence or, in the case of belief in God, in spite of evidence. Several things. First, you hate the EU so this sudden alliance you seem to have found is a very temporary marriage of convenience. Second, you are a Tory and therefore disapprove of liberals. Third, you seem to be forgetting that this is all high politics, not a court case, and the assertions we hear from on high are being made sans solid evidence. It's crystal clear that there is no evidence implicating Russia that isn't already in the public domain, and all the evidence that is out there is circumstantial only. They're reds and what more do we need-style evidence.   There's no other reason on earth than that for why the best they can do is "highly likely." All the declarations in the world from politicos can't change by one jot or tittle the veracity or otherwise of the claim that Russia done it. What you need to do, Keith, is to forget what all these agenda-ridden axe-grinders tell you and bloody well THINK FOR YOURSELF for once in your little life. That'll be the day, won't it?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 01:16 PM

In the fictional world of spy movies, wiping memories is a standard plot device...


.. just saying....

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 01:14 PM

Sorry to pop up like this in the middle of the affray, but I see that the latest news about Sergei and Yulia Skripal is that they may have suffered permanent brain damage as a result of this attack.
This is terribly tragic.
Just thought I'd say...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 01:02 PM

Right then mates...

If starting this thread confers any authority to try to moderate it...???

I'd prefer if just as a trial experiment, we allow Keith an opportunity to try to redeeem an rehabilitate himself
within safe confines of this thread.

If Keith can show the self discipline to keep his contributions to this debate brief and concise, to the point of this topic,
it's only fair the rest of us restrain ourselves from habitual mockery and hostility.

In this thread I would like to see a total absence of Keith's overlong repetative circular screeds
responding to, defending and self justifying, every single minute pedantic disagreement since time began.

This more positive new horizon will not stand a chance
if some of us continue to needle him just for the the sake of it.........

Call me idealistic and naive, but can we at least see if this can work..
...if only in just this one thread...?????

btw.. I'll refrain from such calls to our better nature as
"Brothers, let's treat each other with love and respect.."
because that is well too nauseatingly happy clappy....

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 12:55 PM

No need for me to do anything. Everyone knows and they have already seen it. You will just ignore whatever is out up in evidence so there is no point you even asking.

Found out you are rumbled and trying to close yet another thread that has got too embarrassing for you?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 12:51 PM

"You never can because your accusations against me are just lies."
You deserve everything you get Keith
Change you ways or lie back and enjoy the ride
Enough is enough
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 12:13 PM

Dave, if I did any of those things, all you would have to do is quote me and the game would be up.

You never can because your accusations against me are just lies.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 12:11 PM

Mayo,
The relative status of one lager compared to others is certainly subjective.
How is that relevant?

Your report is not worded well.
"and there have only ever been three patients with significant poisoning."

That would be the two Russians and the cop.
Since then another cop has been treated.
No surprises there.
He clearly meant no other cases apart from those three.

I believe all those democratically elected, liberal, EU governments over the conspiracy nuts.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 11:20 AM

Oh dear. Ive been rumbled.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYYRH4apXDo

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: mayomick
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 10:48 AM

Q.What's the distance between Salisbury and Piltdown ? Answer .104 years

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 10:10 AM

"I think you've got a hole in your rusky moonsuit."

They're reds and what more do you need? Thanks to Andy Irvine for that wonderful line about brainless prejudice. One step only removed from lynch-mob mentality.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: mayomick
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 09:56 AM

It’s highly likely that Carlsberg is the best lager in the world , Keith but the assessment is very subjective at the same time , you must admit.



"On March 16 Steven Davies, “Consultant in Emergency Medicine” at Salisbury hospital, wrote the following letter to the Times in response to an article that had appeared there two days earlier.This is the text of the letter:

“Sir, Further to your report (“Poison Exposure Leaves Almost 40 Needing Treatment”, Mar 14), may I clarify that no patients have experienced symptoms of nerve-agent poisoning in Salisbury and there have only ever been three patients with significant poisoning. Several people have attended the emergency department concerned that they may have been exposed. None had symptoms of poisoning and none has needed treatment. Any blood tests performed have shown no abnormality. No member of the public has been contaminated by the agent involved.

STEPHEN DAVIES, Consultant in Emergency Medicine, Salisbury NHS Foundation Trust”"


https://off-guardian.org/2018/03/21/what-did-the-salisbury-physician-mean-by-no-patients-have-experienced-symptoms-of-nerve-agen

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 09:18 AM

I think you've got a hole in your rusky moonsuit.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 08:37 AM

I think you need to carefully study the language used. Not a single absolute to be seen, just probabilities. How many of these fine politians driving brexit are closet remainers.
Why jail a man for spying, agree to swap him and then attempt to top him very publicly with an unknown nerve agent and also involve innocent civilians?
If the nerve agent has been identified why send it to an international agency for analysis?
Why not supply a sample of the agent to the accused?
Why the sudden turnabout by the EU to support the UK?
Why the emphasis on joint security?
How many times has Porton Down poisoned civilians?

The Tuskegee syphilis experiment demonstrated decades ago why government cannot be trusted. If people can be waterboarded and subjected to extraordinary rendition in the modern world, what else are shady agencies capable of? The spanish inquisition were angels in comparison.

If this is not manipulation then I am a spaceman.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 08:31 AM

Steve, don't go there! You know what will happen. He will quote something, deny that is what he said, quote it again differently, accuse you lying, put some exceptions in there like no opinion is valid but that of eminent living train drivers from Bromsgrove, accuse you of lying again, tell Jim he is a liar, tell me I am unhinged and, finally, the moderators will be that pissed off with it they will close the thread.

You know it makes sense ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 07:40 AM

Playground name calling in place of any reasoned reply.
No change there Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 06:56 AM

Sucker.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 06:43 AM

. We are being massaged into accepting it by "authority figures" closing ranks to make "authoritative statements." It's just as I suspected.

So US and all EU are part of a conspiracy to persuade us all of Russia's guilt!
Somewhat improbable.

They are better informed than you and from the evidence available to them they conclude that there is" no plausible alternative explanation."

Absolute proof will never be available unless they confess.
To all those governments the evidence is clear.
"Highly likely" is all that can ever be said without a confession.
Doing nothing because of that is not an option.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 06:06 AM

"Highly likely" doesn't entitle the EU, May or anybody else to appoint themselves judge, jury and executioner. Everybody in the world outside Russia saying that Russia did it doesn't make it it any more or any less likely that they did. We are being massaged into accepting it by "authority figures" closing ranks to make "authoritative statements." It's just as I suspected. There is no evidence for Russia having done the deed that isn't already out there (hence only "highly likely") and the only evidence that is already out there is "they're reds and what more do you need" evidence. You wouldn't sentence anyone to the chair on the strength of it, would you?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 05:13 AM

It is all getting a bit foggy. It gives Niccolò Machiavelli strictly amateur status in comparison to these elaborations.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/russia-links-skripal-accusations-to-brexit/article23324899.ece

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/03/conspiracy-theories-rife-russia-sergei-skripal-poisoning-180313080229802.html

https://www.wsj.com/articles/after-ex-spys-poisoning-eu-action-on-russia-is-far-from-a-sure-thing-1521394000

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 04:38 AM

Not Hercule Poirot though. I don't think he could work in the UK after the brexit vote :-)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 04:30 AM

The butler did it.

Philip Marlowe would have sorted it out by now.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 03:58 AM

More massaging of public opinion. We cannot preserve our security going it alone. A leak to the papers of new blue passports to be printed in the UK(Despite De La Rue making banknotes and special papers for passports for numerous countries)
All little facts unrelated in themselves but hasn't this poisoning created a wonderful plea for European unity? and what spiffing timing.
No doubt we are about to get irished for another referendum!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 02:53 AM

The EU are now the good guys? Wonder why we are leaving...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 01:09 AM

The EU Council "agrees with UK government that highly likely Russia is responsible for Salisbuy attack and there is no other plausible explanation."
EU has taken the rare step of withdrawing its ambassador from Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 07:59 PM

"It's government directed targeted murder."
No proof.
And there probably never shall be Steve - Mayfly and Western interests wll make sure of that
Bt the logic is that it was Putin's "free" Russia.
It has happened once before and 'free' Russia's track record, both in supporting right wing-extremism and its enthusiastic embracing all the worst aspects of Capitalist society and its suppression of all challenges to the State's authority have shown that it is more than capable of such things
I was a strong opponent of Stalin and highly critical of the way the old Soviet Union had developed, but, when I visited Russia in the early sixties I was sharply aware that the dream of making the world a better place was still very much a better place was still foremost in the thinking there, despite bureaucratic compromises -
That's gone now, and Russia has gone the way of the former Communist States in developing a dog-eat-dog society
The present leaders put the shits up me far more than the worst aspects of the old Soviets did
I've often thought of going back, but I'd rather live with the memories of a society with hope and principles
Let's face it - whoever did this is no different than the U.S. interference in the affairs of counties who didn't fall into line - propped up dictators like Paapa Doc and Marshal Ki, the eighty odd attempts on Castro's life, the Bay of Pigs, the assassination of Patrice Lumumba, the invasion of Grenada.... it's what Western Democracy is all about   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 06:22 PM

Not sure. As my dad was driving and we were in a pub, I may have had double vision...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 06:05 PM

Was it accompanied by a sign saying "God gave man the highlands and Macbrayne the western Isles"?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 05:50 PM

"It's government directed targeted murder."

No proof.

..................................................

Seen round the edge of a sign made to look like a huge US coin, behind the bar in the pub at Broadford, Isle Of Skye, 1974:

IN GOD WE TRUST. THE REST PAY CASH.

Might have been around the same time. I can't remember where I saw it, but it was also behind a pub bar:

CREDIT IS AVAILABLE TO CUSTOMERS OVER THE AGE OF 90 AS LONG AS THEY ARE ACCOMPANIED BY BOTH PARENTS

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 02:48 PM

Russia, China, and India must be pissing themselves laughing at soon to be very isolated little pipsqueak tory Britain,
postering as though it is still a serious world power...???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 02:29 PM

In God we trust???

If he exists I would trust the useless twat as far as I could throw him.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 02:18 PM

In God We Trust; Others Must Provide Data.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 01:45 PM

"I suppose "
You suppose!!!!!
It was against 2 Russians legally residing in Britain and it took in 2 British citizens - it was an act of State terror
You seem to have borrowed Mayfly's feather duster Bobad
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 01:40 PM

It's government directed targeted murder. I suppose it can be called state terrorism against its dissidents as its purpose is to send a message to any of its citizens who might entertain similar ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 01:40 PM

Russia... hmmmm....
Which Russia...??????

Their government.
It has been made clear there is no quarrel with ordinary Russians.

Why is this not an act of terrorism!!

It is. The accusation is that it was perpetrated by the Russian government.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 02:23 PM

"....And we need strong action as set out by the Prime Minister on Wednesday."
Just watched Ellie May talking about the chemical attack - she made it clear that the Government now has made up her mind who the culprit was nd described "the russian attack as "RECKLESS!!!
Had a Muslim State made such an attack on British soil she would, rightfully, have described it as AN ACT OF TERRORISM
Whence the difference?
This attack has left two Russians maimed, probably for life, (if they survive) a policeman and another unnamed observer badly hurt
Why is this not an act of terrorism!!
Last week The Times carried a cartoon showing Theresa the Mayfly attacking Putin with two feather dusters - makes sense to me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 01:10 PM

I like the way he stands over the blue touch paper when igniting it. Obviously sleeping through the site safety induction.
Did he have shit for brains before the explosion as well?
Sadly they walk among us, Walmart no longer has the monopoly!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 12:07 PM

A visual metaphor of how the tory propaganda machine diseminates disinformation.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 11:26 AM

Russia... hmmmm....

Which Russia...??????

politician's do realise that Russia is a big place of diverse folks, cultures, political factions, foreign interests, etc...????

Not the easiest entity to agree to be 'persuaded' by tory leadership into whole heartedly condemning ..????


But does make you wonder about labour officials who do so quickly jump to side with the tories....?????

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 11:25 AM

A severe case of missmanglemant from our chief warsehole methinks PFR. Thanks for those words :-)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 11:20 AM

"....And we need strong action as set out by the Prime Minister on Wednesday."