Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 05:00 AM

> ...your best bet is to become an active member. Otherwise, you'll never have any real say in what happens.

How much "real say" - i.e. actual power - does any member outside the inner sanctum have?

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 02:28 AM

Nerd,
'Hurt feelings' seems somewhat of an understatement when it comes to the expulsion of a branch and the seizure of its premises, and doesn't your premise ignore the political and personal influence O'Murchú undoubtedly has and is more than ready to use?
The Cap'n is right on this occasion; when it comes to CCE, 'Democracy is a farce', though O'Murchú appears ready to pay lip-service to it with the somewhat lickspittle 'support our glorious leader' which he has encouraged on this and other similar occasions.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru
From: Nerd
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 02:15 AM

We had this discussion already in this thread, Barry. They're accountable for how they spend public money, not for whether they hurt the feelings of branch members. In this regard, I'm sure Comhaltas is as transparent as the law requires. We all know where the money went; the Clasac centre is there for all to see. That's all the guardians of the public purse care about, not which particular members of an organization got their toes stepped on in the process.

Another way to look at it: no one outside of Comhaltas is accusing Comhaltas of mishandling public money. Comhaltas said their branch was mishandling public money, and that the national organization stepped in and remedied the situation. Clontarf branch says no one mishandled public money at all. The upshot of both stories is that the public money went where it was supposed to go: to get the centre built and operational. Why should the guardians of the public money waste MORE public money investigating this situation? Neither side alleges that the mishandling of money remains unresolved, just that the organization hurt some feelings in resolving it. Bottom line is, the government isn't likely to care, and arguably, they shouldn't. Whether the central committee can or can't dissolve a branch according to the comhaltas constitution really isn't a matter for anyone outside of comhaltas.

I do see one way to get the government involved: the former branch members could sue the national organization in court. The fact that they aren't doing so suggests that (1) it's not worth it to them; or (2) they don't feel they can win.

Non-profit organizations always have internal politics, jockeying for power, sudden ousters of board and staff and members, etc. Funding agencies don't care. They are assured by the new powers that be that all is well, they are showed the books proving that the money is where it should be, and all goes on as before.

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 01:44 AM

I've worked most of my working life for non-profit corporations that "take public money." This does not make them democracies in which "the public" that provided the money has a direct role

But it does make them accountable & it should make them transparent

Barry

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru
From: Nerd
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:57 PM

Sorry, Barry. Just because you shout "NOT" won't make a corporation into a government. For the record, you're leaving out an important word. It's a "non-profit," you say. A non-profit what? It's a non-profit corporation.

Comhaltas has a six-tiered governing structure (individual members, branch committees, county-region boards, provincial boards, ardchomairle, and finally the high officers of the ardchomairle). This ensures that very few individual members have actually voted for any member of the ardchomairle. This makes it difficult to cause a change in the high officers of the organization through a broad grassroots movement, because only members of their own branches vote for them directly. But you err if you assume that this is somehow illegal or outrageous. Plenty of non-profit corporations have far less in the way of democracy.

I've worked most of my working life for non-profit corporations that "take public money." This does not make them democracies in which "the public" that provided the money has a direct role. (They don't hold public elections on who runs the Red Cross.) A lot of people seem not to understand this. If you are not vested in the organization by being a member, your only say would be to call your governmental representative and say "please don't fund so-and-so." But your governmental rep is insulated from that decision anyway; typically in the arts, the money goes through an arts board or arts council before an organization like Comhaltas gets it, and their decisions on which organizations to fund are subject to pretty rigorous oversight. In particular, they will put together a truly independent panel of arts experts to vet the various applications. I have served on many grants panels making this kind of decision; they include artists, administrators, and scholars in relevant disciplines. By the time a grant is made, everyone's ass is pretty well covered, and it would be hard for a member of the public to argue from sensationalized news accounts that an organization isn't worthy of the money that an expert panel awarded it.

I'm sure most arts experts, looking at the totality of Comhaltas's activities, and being aware of the controversy over this one decision, would still not vote to de-fund Comhaltas. And I believe that members of all the other branches would agree.

Beyond denying it funding, there is generally no mechanism for the government to interfere in a non-profit corporation's business.

Corporations are also not democracies internally, although comhaltas itself is structured on semi-democratic principles. They are governed only by their own bylaws, generally established by the founding board of directors and modified by subsequent boards when necessary. If these bylaws give individual members no power at all in guiding the organization, then that's the way it is, and that's perfectly legal. (Members knew what rights they had before joining, so it's hard to argue that anyone has been wronged.) Many non-profits don't even HAVE individual members of any kind, and board members are simply selected by the board itself.

Comhaltas happens to be MORE democratic than many other non-profits, but you still shouldn't make the mistake of assuming that it's "a democracy." To be governed by a convoluted, semi-democratic system such as Comhaltas has developed is probably fully legal (I'm in the US, not Ireland, so I don't know for sure.) We can sputter about it all we like, but it's not "a democracy," and it won't respond to our outrage.

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 06:56 PM

"organizations like Comhaltas are not democracies. They are corporations"

NOT!

I believe Comhaltas is a non profit or at least in all appearances it is, though being a member of the Boston branch I'm not sure of the legal foundations outside the US.

It relies on private & public funding, private & public sweat & membership fees!
As such their books, polices, discissions, etc. should be at the very least be open & public to the membership if not to to their communities.

Barry

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus
From: Declan
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 02:09 PM

Can't make it to the Cobblestone tonight.

I'm sure it will be brilliant.

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 01:51 PM

Again, I think there is more here than either side is admitting.
I understand that Comhaltas has done things in the past to make people on this forum angry, but the fact is we just don't have the evidence to know what is going on in this case. Both sides have put out highly partisan documents outlining their own side and ignoring the other's side.

For example: "Independent offers of mediation were made?" By whom? Why should either side accept them, if they are not likely to favor that side? If one side accepts them and the other does not, it MIGHT mean that the side that doesn't accept is being unreasonable, or it might mean that the "independent" mediators weren't as independent as they claimed, and one side smelled a rat. How are we on this list supposed to know which was the case?

Comhaltas's answer to that, by the way, is: "The matter under review was an internal issue for Comhaltas and processed within the terms and requirements of the Bunreacht. It was people in the dissolved branch who brought it into the public domain." This seems also to be true, which suggests to me that the "offer" of independent mediation could have been an ultimatum: "submit to mediation by our chosen mediators, or we will go to the press and make Comhaltas look bad." If that was the case, Comhaltas did the only thing it reasonably could do.

Finally, I've made this point before, but it bears repeating: organizations like Comhaltas are not democracies. They are corporations. They do have some features of democratic governance, but those features are limited. The ardchomairle is indeed accountable to membership, but it seems that changing the ardchomairle takes time, and changing the constitution takes even longer.

The structure of the archomairle is not a secret. You can find it on the Comhaltas website, here:

http://comhaltas.ie/about/structure/

Essentially, the body is made up of the provincial council chairpeople, and two more members of each provincial council. Provincial councils are made up of county/regional board members, and county/regional boards are made up of branch committee members.

So if you feel strongly about what has happened to Clontarf, the appropriate action is to become active in your branch and vote out your branch committee members, replacing them with new ones. This will inevitably change the ardchomairle.

If you can find out which of your branch committee members, if any, is actually a member of the ardchomairle, so much the better. You can oust the responsible parties more easily that way. People here have alluded to the difficulties in finding out who is on the ardchomairle, but enough people in the organization know that it can hardly be very difficult to find out, if you are an active comhaltas member.

If you're NOT an active comhaltas member, and you feel strongly about this situation, your best bet is to become an active member. Otherwise, you'll never have any real say in what happens.

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 10:32 AM

Democracy is a farce anyway.
Are you eligible to vote tomorrow[Lisbon Treaty]Bonnie,I am not,yet I am affected and have lived in Ireland for 18 years.
   I dont think Comhaltas are right,.
but their attitude is typical of Fianna Fail,Haughey, Ahern etc.
power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 09:27 AM

Are they not accountable to anyone? If this is officially the case - that no rights of dispute or redress to an unjust balance of power actually exist - then this state of affairs should be legally contested and remedied.

Having the same leader, elected by the same quasi-secret council decade after decade, still raises major questions in my mind regarding democracy. So does that six-year waiting period between any possible amendment to the constitution by the dues-paying membership.

Surely no organisation with Comhaltas' assets in real estate and funding should have that kind of autonomy and protection from public scrutiny. It's too open to abuse. How much else goes on behind the scenes that no one knows about?

Apart from self-adoring PR they seem to be doing nothing to address this Clasac issue. But it looks like they don't have to. That non-accountability should be challenged. If there's no law governing this situation, they need to make one. Oh, wait: government. Fianna Fáil, isn't it?

Sometimes if something doesn't seem fair and doesn't look fair and doesn't smell fair... it isn't fair. It's time for a change. An official, legal one.

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus
From: GUEST,Stringman
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 07:28 AM

I think the press release from Comhaltas accusing the former Clontarf branch of exploitation of children is inappropriate in the extreme, and is slanderous and demeans the whole organisation. Also the press release in Praise of Labhras seems so out of touch with reality that one wonders has he got a future at all!
When an organisation accuses a branch of such impropriety as a means to strengthen their own position, they are stepping out on very thin ice, particularly when these statements have the endorsements of all members of the ardcomhairle. This has got nothing to do with the central mission of Comhaltas.
Incidentally,members of this thread may be interested to hear that independent offers of mediation were made to both Clontarf and Labhras before the breaking news on the Joe Duffy show. Clontarf agreed, but head office said no.
This could have been handled out of the public domain, but the ardstiurthoir declined.

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru
From: GUEST,Cluain Tarbh
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 08:13 AM

I should point out that the venue is quite small with a capacity of up to 80 people. Tickets will available at the door but get there early to avoid disappointment. Doors open at 8:30 PM.

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus
From: dílis
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 07:54 PM

It's the room downstairs out the back.

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru
From: Gulliver
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 07:58 AM

Is that upstairs or in the room at the back?

Best of luck, Don

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru
From: GUEST,Cluain Tarbh
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:25 PM

Hot off the presses.

Jesse Smith & John Blake have been added to an already impressive line up at our fundraiser on June 11th in the Cobblestone.

By the way the Mick O'Connor playing is Mick (accordion) O'Connor not Mick (flute) O'Connor or Mick (banjo) O'Connor.

See you all on the night!

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru
From: GUEST,Cluain Tarbh
Date: 31 May 08 - 04:21 PM

After all the angst in this blog here's something to put a smile on your face!
The dissolved Cluain Tarbh recently ran a benefit concert to raise funds, having lost all our assets on dissolution. The response from musicians and punters alike was amazing! Thanks everyone! We raised enough money to cover our insurance allowing us to operate as an independent entity.
The night was so successful and we do still have bills to pay so we are doing it again!
So put this in your diary -

The Cobblestone Pub, Smithfield, Dublin 7   
11th June 2008 at 9:00PM

Line up includes:

    Máire Breathnach,
    Niamh Parsons,
    Alan Doherty (Gráda) & Friends,
    Mick O Connor,
    Mary Nugent & Frank Walsh,
    Pat Good

...and its only €12.
Over 18s only!

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus
From: bytheway
Date: 31 May 08 - 09:56 AM

From; martin

I am a member of the West london branch of comhaltas and have been following the thread for the last few weeks. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the Clasac Affair the handling of this by Comhaltas HQ is nothing short of an alsolute disgrace.

Although I was not an active member of West london CCE during the 1979 expulsions I do know that to this day it has deeply affected the branch as it now stands. The branch was suspended in 1979 following a letter from the local committee refusing to participate in what they viewed as political activities, namely a celebration of Patrick Pearse in which branches were invited to make donations. Quite rightly the local committee felt that this ran counter to the non-political tenets of CCE. For this they awarded with suspension.

And why should this old history be of any importance today ?

Because the those responsible what what happened in 1979 are still in control of CCE HQ. More so, it still follows a certain political agenda and behaves in a manner which hold no truck with those with opposing views.

Just look at the Comhaltas website in which Labhras gets a unaminous vote of support at the 2th may Congresss in dublin. Its embarrassing to read. I have written to the CCE Provincial Chairman describing this motion as obsequous nonsence with echoes of a 1930s USSR motion of support for "Uncle Joe". I eagerly await his reply from him.

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru
From: GUEST,Guest - Brian
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:57 PM

Don't forget to sign our petition to show your support, Thank you. http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/clontarf

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru
From: GUEST,Guest - Áine
Date: 30 May 08 - 01:52 PM

Dear Guest,

Yes, that email is checked regularly. Thanks!

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 08 - 09:20 AM

tks Bonnie - I have emailed that gmail address - do you know whether someone checks it regularly

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 30 May 08 - 08:18 AM

Not a good idea to publish private info like that on an open-access web page. Their site has a list of names and a contact email, and you'll be able to reach people that way. I imagine they'll want to know who's asking -

http://www.cluaintarbh.net/index.htm

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus
From: GUEST,sos
Date: 30 May 08 - 06:21 AM

I'm looking to contact branch members from Clontarf for coverage of issue in national press - please advise best phone number for branch officials

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus
From: GUEST,shaskeen
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:54 PM

I don't think anyone will really take into account what you said south dublin, seeing as you actually can't even spell 'comhaltas' (thats how its spelt by the way in case you didn't see it at the top of the thread there).

But contrary to your ignorant and ill-informed remarks, there IS huge support for clontarf. a lot more than the 40 people that you claim. but maybe if you were in contact with people within the music you would probably know that, im not even from dublin and i know about it. all of the other dublin branches have leant their support and lots of other branches from around the country. i was also at the fundraiser in april where a huge number of top class musicians also leant their support.

I have to pull you up on your comment there because it really was a pathetic attempt at trying to 'contribute' (i use the term loosely here) to the thread. talking of 'boo-boos', 'the silence is deafening' and what not, thats pretty embarrassing.

the situation has nothing to do with being 'morally' right.the committee didnt 'screw up'. cce and clontarf had entered into a mutual agreement about the centre (and there also a seperate committee made up by clontarfr members and cce members and other independants) and cce broke all of these arrangements, some of the things asked of clontarf were highly illegal. and they were also dissolved for no reason, the majority of members are kids so thats needlessly punishing them.

you got fed up of the constant sniping at comhaltas (there's that speeling again!), well how did you expect people to react? the cce solution to problems regarding one of the biggest and most successful of its branches is to dissolve it. if that doesn't smack of bad decision making i dont know what does. and contrary to your belief most of the cce employees, ard comhairle and others, they work for labhras and comhaltas, not for the music. for them, that took a back seat long ago. i am a member of a comhaltas branch and i have spoken to many people who have worked very closely with labhras and the organisation over the years, and i dont have a 'personal grudge' against them. like many musicians, i dont like the way they conduct their affairs and the way they portray the music, which is often in a very stereotypical and uniform way.

I know your entitled to your opinion, but why not try next time to use the thing between your ears and show a some respect for the people involved.

as you put it yourself 'thats my tuppence worth'.

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus
From: GUEST,thedublin
Date: 29 May 08 - 04:15 PM

again you dont seem to understand. there was no problems with getting the centre running until the inexplicable actions of comhaltas as regards signing for the loan and the VAT refund.

you also dont seem to understand that there have been NO meetings WITH comhaltas in the run up to getting the building running. there was a seperate board with members from all parties to get the centre running and anything that was decided was done through this committee. and as regards meetings to solve the problem, well obviously you have not read the whole of this thread. clontarf have tried and tried in vain to have meetings with comhaltas but are rebuffed everytime. if you are so damning of not having meetings, i suggest you contact cce and ask them about it. i doubt that you will have an easier time getting one. cce has had secret meetings and have made judgements on the situation without notifying clontarf or anyone involved. clontarf have not been allowed to state their position to cce since being dissolved simply because cce refuse to meet with them. clontarf are the ones being pro-active in the situation in trying to arrange a meeting to solve the problem, so why are you so critical of them?

so far cce have ignored approaches by the branch and have only served to stoke the fire by peddling untrue stories about the leadership of the branch, the leadership of the branch is the only thing that is keeping the branch going without cce's help at the moment so i think you are wrong in your criticism. the problems with the centre arose out of actions by cce, not by conflict within the clasac committee.

nobody closely involved with trying to get the centre open again is concerned with laying the blame, if they were they would not be approaching cce to solve the bloody problem.

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru
From: GUEST,South of Dublin
Date: 29 May 08 - 03:00 PM

south dublin, i really don't know what you are talking about.

Well, I suppose that says it all...

You've completely avoided actually dealing with any of the issues being discussed

Yes, I certainly have! If the Committee and the Ard-chomhairle and associated spokespersons after years of working together and months of wrangling and interminable meetings can't agree on the issues and who is at fault, then nothing I say here is going to make a ha'p'orth of difference. I just expressed an opinion, based on what I've read here.

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus
From: GUEST,thedublin
Date: 29 May 08 - 07:58 AM

*you clearly did not and if you did...*

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus
From: GUEST,thedublin
Date: 29 May 08 - 07:54 AM

south dublin, i really don't know what you are talking about. you say that you are not a member of comhaltas, so that leads me to believe that you probably don't understand the processes undertaken by the organisation, you probably dont know that people involved, you said that you read the other comments but you clearly did and if you did you drifted over important pieces of information.

i think the 'comhaltas bashing' you speak of is something that is only natural to come out of the situation. even before this people have given out about comhaltas and the way they conduct their affairs. you mightn't like to hear it but it is true, and with good reason. for all the good work cce has done, this has been slowed down since the 1980s when the organisation drifted into a political sphere with labhras at the head. you may remember big mistakes by the organisation such as the review of the state of traditional irish music by Labhras for the government some years ago, which was laughed at by mostly everyone who has a proper interest in the music. notable musicians came out in protest at this report and wasshot down, however labhras as stubborn as he is stood by it despite the fact the report upon reading read like an essay written by someone in primary school.

you may also remember cce trying to sell the rights to traditional music to imro. they wanted to sell the 'trad. arr.' that appears on almost every traditional music cd. this would also lead to people not being allowed to play in public (ie. sessions) without the prior consent of comhaltas. again this was met with scorn by actual traditional musicians.

most of the propaganda that i read coming out of the cce offices like the press release below, are all about promoting the organisation and the people in it. no longer are they saying how great the music is, but they are saying how great labhras is and how great comhaltas is for keeping the music alive. the truth is, the music doesn't need comhaltas anymore unless you want the fleadhs to keep going or the dreadful us, uk and irish cce tours. cce is a multimillion euro organisation but where is this money going? so much could be done if it weren't for a few grey hairs in the ard comhairle and the other committes in cce.

but the fact of the matter is is that cce have been stubborn in allowing communication with clontarf. if you read the thread and fully understood the situation south dublin, you would know that despite repeated attempts by clontarf to have discussions, cce have constantly denied them the privilage. and the only reason why clontarf have been put in this mess regarding money is because of cce. if you read earlier passages you would know that cce had said to clontarf that they would sign for a loan of 2million or around th mark to finish the job. since that the rest of the building work had taken place but when they went back to comhaltas to retrieve the loan cce decided that they didn't want to sign for the loan anymore. there are other reasons aswell for the mess but that is one of the main ones. it is comhaltas who have created this whole mess and it is clontarf who is being made take the blame. all of the planning was done with the backing of cce in realtion to things like that so it so difficult to suddenly find 2million euros when you main backer suddenly decides that it doesn't want you involved anymore.

maybe you should read this thread again.

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus
From: GUEST,michj
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:32 AM

eh?

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 08 - 03:31 AM

"I read this whole thread from start to finish. I got fed up of the constant sniping at Ceoltas."
This thread is made up of (mostly) of people whose prime interest is Irish music rather than supporting the 'Glorious leader' or ' the organisation, right or wrong'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru
From: GUEST,caitlín
Date: 29 May 08 - 02:42 AM

"For whatever reason" ?? Maybe you read the thread but you clearly didn't take it in. You've completely avoided actually dealing with any of the issues being discussed. Sorry you're fed up with all the sniping, but there are good reasons for it, which you've managed to ignore. Looks like the facts don't fit your opinions.

Yes they have thousands of members who are working hard and doing a good job. So what? That's not the issue. Your post just reads like a party statement.

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru
From: GUEST,South of Dublin
Date: 28 May 08 - 09:55 PM

My mistake. I meant Annual Congress, not AGM.

Knight High, I read this whole thread from start to finish. I got fed up of the constant sniping at Ceoltas. I am not a member. If I was, I would be annoyed at the criticism of the organisation often made by people who have either a personal grudge or who know nothing about the organisation. As far as I am concerned the members are working hard for the music and doing a good job. Yes, in this thread about 40 people from around the world, maybe a handful of them actually members of Ceoltas, expressed their support. Big deal. What about the tens of thousands of members who didn't support CCC, not to mention all other cultural organisations and similar of which there are hundreds around the country? The silence is deafening.

My take on this is that for whatever reason the committee screwed up and weren't able to retrieve the situation. There's politics in every organisation and they didn't manage to "cover their assets". Happens all the time in real life. Just because you're morally right doesn't mean you don't get shafted if you make a booboo or even just rub someone up the wrong way. It's a pity the members were dragged down with the committee. I hope this mess doesn't have an adverse affect on the kids.

That's my tuppence worth.

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru
From: GUEST,Mary
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:32 PM

Please show your support for the dissolved branch of Clontarf Comhaltas by signing our petition. It does not cost any money and will just take a minute.

www.ipetitions.com/petition/clontarf

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus
From: knight_high
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:21 PM

Dear GUEST,South of Dublin
How can you be serious?. If you read this thread you will see the huge level of support for Ceoltóirí Cluain Tarbh. Yes the branch got shafted alright - and illegally at that.
As for Annual Congress and what came out of it. Well its worth re printing Eileen O'Connor's earlier post:

COMHALTAS CONGRESS SAUTES ITS ARDSTIURTHOIR

The Annual Congress of Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann, meeting on the 2nd May, 2008, with delegates from all over Ireland, Britain and North America in attendance, unanimously adopted the following statement and gave the Ardstiurthoir a prolonged standing ovation:

That this Congress salutes and acknowledges the outstanding leadership which Senator Labhras O Murchu, Ardstiurthoir of Comhaltas, has given to our cultural movement over the last 40 years.

Through his dedication, idealism and integrity, coupled with his vision and professionalism, he has guided Comhaltas to its present world status.

Comhaltas and the Irish nation owe him a huge debt of gratitude. His standing in the movement at home and abroad and his record in Seanad Eireann are testimony to the appreciation, admiration and affection which he enjoys nationally and internationally.

We deplore the recent personal abuse to which Labras was subjected. We deplore the vicious anonymous letters sent to his wife Una. Neither Labhras nor the Ardcomhairle were prepared to preside over matters which would harm the good standing and credibility of Comhaltas and bring it inot disrepute. As was required of us by the Bunreacht, the Ardchomhairle unanimously took the appropriate action and dissolved the Clontarf branch of Comhaltas.

Labhras enjoys the full support and confidence of the Ardchomhairle and of the general membership with 400 branches in 15 countries on 4 continents. His legacy to Comhaltas and Irish Ireland has guaranteed him an honoured place in our history. May he be with us for many years to come.

Thank you, Labhras, for your friendship, leadership and inspiration and may God Bless you and Una always"

Oh my Oh my!!!!

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru
From: GUEST,Guest - North Dublin
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:19 PM

Dear Guest - South Dublin,

There has been great support for the original Clontarf Comhaltas but unfortunately, due to fear, much of the support has been under the veil of secrecy. Many branches have confided in us that they share our horror at the way we have been treated but they admit that they cannot speak out openly in our defence as they are afraid that their branch will be victimised like Clontarf has been. Sad and worrying , isn't it?

What AGM? That was held last Oct before any of this crisis became apparent.

Since then there have been two EGM's and several information evenings when, contrary to what you allege , a lot of progress was made. The unity among the members was inspiring at those meetings. There was unanimous support for the committee and gratitude expressed for all their hard work in trying to right the terrible injustice which has been done to the membership of the original Clontarf Comhaltas. At all times , the committee and the general membership have behaved in a dignified, courteous, honourable and decent manner despite the most despicable treatment from HQ and the most abhorrent lies told and written about the branch and named individuals in it.

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru
From: GUEST,South of Dublin
Date: 28 May 08 - 06:16 PM

Whatever the rights and wrongs of this situation, I can't help wondering whether the Ceoltóirí Cluain Tarbh are thinking "everyone is out of step except our Johnny". I don't recall anything coming out of the AGM, they don't seem to have any support within Ceoltas, or outside except in their own area. There doesn't seem to have been much support for the petition. It looks to me like the old Committee shot themselves in the foot and as a result got shafted, and the only thing left for Clontarfers who want anything to do with Ceoltas is to bite the bullet and accept the new committee (which, reading the above, seems to have been mostly the original committee who got things started with Clasac in the first place).

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus
From: GUEST,Eileen O'Connor
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:22 AM

"North Dublin" has it in a nutshell there.
HQ's problem is with our elected committee, and this is why they're not inviting them or their children to join the new branch.

Guest, "East of Dublin", yes, I reckon the current committee of Ceoltoiri Cluain Tarbh would definitely be re-elected by the 400 members. They have weathered the storm extremely well, and if they were willing to continue at the helm the membership would be more than happy to vote our Committee in again.

Eileen

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus
From: knight_high
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:40 PM

Some names in already:
Ard-Chomairle Delegates from Munster Pádraig Ó Flannagáin (Tipperary) & Assunta Uí Chathasaigh (Cork)

Ard Comhairle Delegates from Connaught Vera Barrett (Galway), Des Collis (Sligo) Seamus McCormack, (Sligo)

Any more??

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus
From: knight_high
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:06 PM

Dear Guest North Dublin
This is appalling behaviour. Look all you people out there, lets lobby the Ardcomhairle members to put some pressure to resolve this.
Send me a PM of any Ardcomhairle members that you know and I will publish them here. Then its up to you.

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru
From: GUEST,Guest-North Dublin
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:59 PM

Dear Guest, East Dublin-

If only it were that simple!! We thought of that - they won't let us!!!


The newly formed self-appointed Craobh Chluain Tarbh committee has written this week to MOST of the families of the dissolved branch "inviting" them to join their classes in Clasac in September. However, the children of certain members of the dissolved committee have not been invited to join!!!! Certain families have obviously been hand-picked and anyone whose parent has been deemed to be questioning of HQ has been ignored deliberately. As if any member of Ceoltóirí Chluain Tarbh has any intention of being lured to this new Craobh with promises of a spanking new building - and nothing else!!

When one of the dissolved committee members put it to the "Chairperson" of the self-appointed committee that all Clontarf members should be allowed go to the secret meeting in Malahide to set up a new branch, he was told they could not come as the general populace of the original Clontarf Comhaltas would vote out the new committee and revert to the original committee!! Is this not the way democracy works? Obviously not in Comhaltas circles!!

There is "no playing Comhaltas at their own game" as Guest from East Dublin so elequently put it. The dissolved members are honourable people who have been treated abominably in ways reminiscint of communism.They have always acted with dignity. Clontarf branch has , at all times, begged for professional mediation to make some headway at this impasse. All requests have been either ignored or refused and the ordinary members of the dissolved branch have been at the receiving end of countless, unsigned , vitriolic, accusatory letters from Labhras addressed to each individual family. The latest several page epistle accuses members of the branch of "exploiting children in their care" . What a scandalous accusation!!

The Reel Clontarf Comhaltas (now called Ceoltóirí Chluain Tarbh) is as united as ever in the face of their unjust and unwarranted treatment.

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 08 - 11:42 AM

Are you suggesting that by rejoining, branch members will have an opportunity to vote the premises back into their hands?
Or is it a case of "Come in - sit down-shut up and do as you're told"?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus
From: GUEST,East of Dublin
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:33 AM

i'm a little confused as to why the former branch members of clontarf are not playing the game. Why are they working outside of the comhaltas structure and trying to get back in?
As far as i am aware none of the members (families, musicians, adults and children) of the dissolved branch have been told they cannot become members of comhaltas. So if the reported 400 members of the dissolved branch all decided to join the newly formed Craobh Cluain Tarbh branch we would have a situation where:

1. Everyone would be back in comhaltas, with voting rights, and information which is afforded to members of the organisation, and the branch given full recognition in the fleadh programmes.

2. A branch majority substantial enough to force a branch EGM and elect its own officers and committee democratically.

Admittedly this would not solve the clasac issue, but it would force a continuation of the dialogue, and it would also be interesting to see if the former committee members from the dissolved branch were re-elected to their posts following the complete mess that has been made - assuming no party is completely without blame.

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:44 AM

Come off it. He's no "sacrificial lamb". He occupies the chief position. Those who run HQ are the ones who act in the org name. That means they are responsible for the actions they choose to take, and what happens as a result of those actions.

The only thing that's going to "appease all" is to genuinely right the wrongs done in that org name. And there are some.

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus
From: Barry Finn
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:24 AM

Shouldn't he be the sacrificial lamb for the betterment of the org. as a whole & to right the wrongs done in the org nanme. Let the head roll.
If he were to go & a reinstatement wre to take place would that not apease all?

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 May 08 - 08:19 AM

could it be, that he has been there too long?

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru
From: GUEST,caitlín
Date: 18 May 08 - 07:41 AM

Taking advantage of an organisation dedicated to traditional music, to use it as a publicity outlet to tout for votes is beyond despicable. Especially one which accepts (relies on?) so much volunteer work, done in good faith, from its membership base.   

Murphy's been in power there for how long - 40 years? Since 1967? Whatever the exact figure is, it's measurable in decades. It's not good enough just to say that he was fairly elected. Fairly elected, how exactly? By whom? The public should be allowed complete freedom to examine exactly how these voting processes are carried out. Three or four decades is a long, long time for one person to be at the helm. Do the grassroots, dues-paying members get a say in this?

Toner Quinn's editorial in the current Journal of Music in Ireland which Frank has already posted makes interesting reading, especially the bit that says, "In its fifty-seven-year history, few can recall a position in the organisation ever being advertised; statistics emanating from Comhaltas regarding its number of branches and classes, and its attendances, never seem to tally with the facts; the names of the members of its Ardchomhairle (Central Executive Committee) are extremely difficult to obtain."

Link here: http://www.thejmi.com/article/764

The people who have the power are always in a perfect position to use that power to keep that power. Especially with all that free advertising space to use for electioneering and furthering of a personal career unrelated to music.

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 08 - 03:54 AM

Whoops
Treor - before we have a Pedants Revolt on our hands - I'm sure J.W. is out there somewhere!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 18 May 08 - 03:52 AM

For anybody with last years copies of Trior, there is a wonderful cover photograph of your man gazing into the distance, against a background of arms raised in salute (statues of the faithful of Bru Boru).
The inside cover has - I couldn't believe it - an election address on his behalf, headed 'A Sense of Place, Nation and Tradition', urging us to vote for him in the Seanad Elections.
What was that about keeping politics out of the music!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus
From: GUEST,aine
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:00 PM

CCE Conventions sound like the place to be for a wicked day out. How does one get to join. Hail to the Great leader.

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus
From: GUEST,Fiddleruairi
Date: 15 May 08 - 04:58 PM

I've been doing a bit of scrounging around found a good explaination of Comhaltas written by Harry Bradley on 'thesession' discussion site. The whole discussion can be accessed here http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/6697

But this the comment in question, I think its pretty accurrate enjoy! (also this was written in 2005 before the whole Cluain Tarbh debacle).


Re: Comhaltas Critics
The problems that most educated interested parties that I know have with CCE are loosely as follows:

1. The leadership. Larry Murphy has obtained himself life- long leadership of the organisation. This was not the way that CCE was set up, and it was certainly not the way that early enthusiasts like the great Breandan Breathnach wanted to see the thing going. Murphy has a long history of abusing his position there for political canvasing, He has dragged ITM by popular association with CCE into politically and morally murky territory by taking visible and audible stances on such contentious topics as Irish politics, abortion and music copyright. Regardless of what you think on these subjects, it is folly to drag a large and largely well meaning organisation into these areas... many probably just don't care what is said in their name of course. The late Sean Ried, that truly knowledgable,humble and humane visionary could not stomach what he seen in CCE as a growingly sectarian 'cultural' movement in the 60s. We have some very intereting letters on the subject from his collection in the NPU archive.

2. Presentation. The CCE 'talk'. Its tough, old school, nationalistic/ bordering on republican rhetoric. It is not very knowlegable when it comes to actual music but is full of glorious, nationalist aspirations for it. It is also deeply paralised in a distant past where the music MUST be saved as part of a nationalist agenda using victorian methods (ie. repetition, competition, empire building). Their identity from top level is built largely on a seige mentality that may seem superficially just when you look at how the traditional arts have been neglected by the irish governments since the Irish republic was formed... but their answer to the situation is to clam up consider themselves sole custodians of the traditions where they attemp to get control of any funding that may be going for ITM as was the case recently. Overkill in other words. At top level they are also insular, have delusions of their self worth and much of the editorial type comment they release in their rag is aggresive and paranoid. As a totaltarian organisation fishing for certain things they are also extremely manipulative, albeit in the clumsiest and most blatant ways with the worst sort of self promotion rhetoric and propeganda.

3.A few years ago Larry Murphy was appointed to create an official report on the state of ITM with a view to it being funded. Needless to say his report (which was really an infantile essay on how great CCE are) was shot down by many free thinking parties and individuals. The Irish Times letters page (among other places) became a battleground of words where people such as Nicholas Carolan of the Irish Traditional Music archive, Terry Moylan of NPU, Fintan Vallely, John Moulden and other music intelligentsia appealed for the report to be jumped on and slowly burned as the kindling that it was. Instead of realising that his 'report' was hopelessly flawed, innacurate, unfair and completely devoid of any understanding of the art forms 'on the ground' Larry instead went on the war path standing by this thing that a secondary school child would have written on a bad day claiming that he was victim of some dark, shady conspiracy against him. The truth was simply that the report was short sighted, selfish and not at all representitve of the needs of ITM. People were'nt happy with that.

4. Without going into the considerable details, there was recently a whole running battle over here when many (rightly) felt that CCE were going to recieve undue and unrepresentitive control of funding ITM due to some of their foot-in-the-door political wranglings. The attempt was to take funding of IT arts away from the general Arts Council of Ireland and ghettoise IT arts as some sort of stand alone freak. I was at the gates of the Dail to hand a petition expressing concern at this with among others, Paddy Moloney of the Cheiftains, Christy Moore, Paddy Glackin and representitives of ITMA, NPU and others. The objections from artists and intereted parties ensured that the stitch-up that we fully expected did not come about, but the situation is far from resolved in a funding sense and it will be a long push yet to secure a fair amount of support for the whole of the irish traditional arts.

5. And yes, CCE, or rather Larry Murphy or a like suit wearer signed a deal with IMRO. CCE and IMRO seemed to think that if the latter gave the former 375,000 euro then the latter could have exclusive rights to Irish music traditional arrangement royalties (trad. arr. as you see on CD sleeve notes). How they decided that CCE owned these rights to sell is still a mystery? They effectively sold Irish music! As usual they did not consult members or the rest of the ITM community on these trifling matters.

Money, power and control. The problem is at the top and that is where the criticism is righly aimed by scholars and experts such as Breathnach, Vallely, Carolan and from mere minstrels such as myself.

To quote Breandan Breathnach himself " CCE is an organisation with a great future behind it." Not for the first time I wish that he was alive to keep them in check, or maybe he is better off at his well deserved rest.

Regards,

Harry Bradley.'

I think its a good explanation of the cce set up at the moment.

Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 15 May 08 - 04:37 PM

The editorial in the current edition of the Journal of Music in Ireland (JMI) is interesting. Seldom has the root of the ambivalence felt by so many in the ITM world towards Comhaltas been expressed so succinctly. The text of the editorial is below:

"The reputation of Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann, the organisation founded in 1951 to promote Irish traditional music, reaches far and wide. Seldom is the rise of this music over the past fifty years mentioned without paying tribute to its global network of branches which have taught hundreds of thousands of children.

Despite its profile, however, for many years Comhaltas' leadership role in traditional music has been receding, overtaken by the growth of other traditional music educational organisations, independent festivals, weekends and workshops, private teaching and state initiatives. Comhaltas today is a shadow of its once pioneering self. It has been unable to develop with the pace of change in Ireland, to cultivate a culture of dynamism in its organisation which would see it thrive in the twenty-first century rather than struggle.

Central to the challenges facing Comhaltas are the matters of communication, openness and transparency. In its fifty-seven-year history, few can recall a position in the organisation ever being advertised; statistics emanating from Comhaltas regarding its number of branches and classes, and its attendances, never seem to tally with the facts; the names of the members of its Ardchomhairle (Central Executive Committee) are extremely difficult to obtain; in each state initiative over the past decade that attemped to address the issue of support for the traditional arts, Comhaltas positioned itself as a negative force, frustrating progress, refusing to engage openly. Sadly, the word 'Comhaltas' in our time has become a byword for intransigence and covertness.

This is unfortunate for the many branches worldwide who continue to provide a fine service to traditional music, but the absence of a culture of openness has meant disaster for the branch of Clontarf in Dublin City. Clontarf was, up until 14th March 2008, one of the largest branches of Comhaltas in the world, and was developing an ambitious new traditional-music venue for the north of Dublin called Clasac. In March, the branch was expelled by the Head Office of Comhaltas over a VAT refund and it has refused to date to engage with the branch to clarify why or to allow an appeal. To judge from the correspondences that the Clontarf branch has posted on its website (www.cluaintarbh.net), this could have been avoided if both parties had engaged in a modicum of constructive dialogue, which is what Clontarf requested. Why is that such a difficult thing to do?"