From Max: State of the Union Address

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: MMario
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:49 PM

Clinton - that is as false as "words will never hurt me"

(and if the latter were true - libel would not be a crime)

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:46 PM

"to viciously attack someone in the secret places of the heart"

NO ONE CAN HURT YOU ONLINE UNLESS YOU LET THEM......

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:46 PM

Shambles: If I ask you not to curse in my home, it is not censorship.

Have you ever needed to ask me not to curse in you home or on your website? Even when faced with much provocation - have I ever done such a thing?

If cursing on your site is something you do not wish and you wish to exclude those who do - this is a matter for you. But is it too much to expect this to apply equally to all who do curse on your website?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:43 PM

"He has been a perfect gentleman"

Continuing to post subjects over and over and over and over after being asked and told to stop is HARDLY a 'gentleman'

"Oh... he never said a bad word...."
Bully for him.... His passive-agressive BS posturing is bad enough thank you.....

Mods are not here to be anyone's role-models... (As adults we shouldn't NEED role-models outside of ourselves) they are here to enforce the rules according to the powers that Max gives them.....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:39 PM

Of late, I have been doing a lot of reflection about The Mudcat, and my role here. I have stated in a number of threads that this has been a wondrous place for me. It gave me some of the best friends and musical contacts imaginable. Ponder this for a moment and then apply it to yourselves. I would love to write the names, but it would sound like name dropping to the nth degree.   I can travel virtually anyplace in the world and find people that want to sing with me, and would happily put me up if I needed it. I have become close with artists in Alaska, California, Colorado, Boston, Toronto, London, all over Ireland. I have sang on CD's with Jed Marum and Rick Fielding. I have sat in Jean Ritchie's yard and sang with her and other friends. I have gone to Boston and hooked up with Dan Milner and sang. I have sat in the Library of Congress and played Burl Ives guitar. I have recorded songs sent to me from Ed Trickett and Dan Milner. And most importantly, I have made friends. Folks that I cherish, and am afraid to start naming because I have made so many that I will miss someone. You know who you are and you know that I love and cherish our friendship. All of that, and it is only the beginning of what I could write. All of this because of Max's Marvellous Machine.

As I have thought my role over, you may have noticed I post less. It is because I recognized that I have become as much a part of the problem as I was a part of the fabric of the place. I firmly believe that the Martin's and the Shambles need to go. They simply do not possess the ability to function in this environment. They might be lovely folks 3D but they lack the ability to be part of a virtual community. JMO. I have chastised those of you who feed them. While recognizing that it is very difficult to ignore them, the constant battle with them only encourages them and gives them satisfaction. It is what they require.

While pondering that last point, I came to realize that I was a big part of the problem. And it had been exacerbated by being a moderator. I am not willing to give up the moderator, unless Max asks me too. So I came to the realization that I had to start doing some things. One is to not engage with the folks that I feel have to go. And so I stopped. Another was to try and apply the guidelines, such as they are, in a more consistent fashion. I don't believe we need more of them, as the freewheeling aspect of Mudcat gives it much of its charm. But moderators in the unique environment that is Mudcat must sense the essence of the place. Joe tries to describe this as not being too legalistic. I agree. EXAMPLE: Catspaw, with his wonderful sense of humour using language that is a bit blue, is not the same as Martin using that language to viciously attack someone in the secret places of the heart, such as the comments about Wesley. The moderators have to get this and act accordingly. It is either that or the strict rules that would make this just another boring stop on the Internet.

Joe Offer, and Jeff, are nothing short of the Saints of the realm known as Mudcat. But they are human. I shake my head when Joe engages with the adversaries. But this place exists because of the works of these two. Max would be the first to admit that. Some criticism may be due, but all those for whom Mudcat is a daily piece of your life, and I am in that group, owe these two gentlemen more than you have the ability to repay. Joe and I disagree on some things, but we will do that privately. I applaud the both of you and consider myself blessed to have you in my world.

Max, please never give in to the notion that this is a UK site. That is hogwash. The UK'ers should simply be seen as the most active organized chapter of the Mudcat world. They have changed how I view the world on so many levels. I love reading of the gatherings, looking at the pictures, remembering my time with all of them. The problem isn't that they are too active, it is that others aren't following their lead. Good on the lot of ya.

The money. I have often chastised those that don't recognize the outlay you make just to keep this going. But of late I have done little to help you. Can you forgive me, my younger friend? I, like my dear friend (and broke dick mamalucca) Catspaw, will find a way to pick up the slack. Auction items, a subscription check, something. I want you to know that my entire life has been positively affected by your unselfishness. I mean that sincerely. The effect of this place on my world has been profound. I will do my part.

So I guess the wrapup on this very long diatribe is to say that I disagree on one contention that Max made. I don't believe the magic is gone. The reason is simple. Most of the magicians are still here, and many others check in from time to time. We can regain the feeling, but not by attacking others. We must first attempt to reconnect with the feelings we all had when we logged in here in "the old days". We must regain the curiosity, and the joy, that made us reach out to each other. We must regain the respect we had for diversity of opinion. I remember "Armalite" and "Derry". I remember having my views of the world evolve as I passionately debated issues with others whose experiences were different. If we would just all attempt to regain the respect for Max's sacrifice, and for each others views, we can have something similar again.

I will try.

Anyone seen THE FAIR ONE whom I shamelessly pursue over cyber hill and dale?

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,You love to hate
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:37 PM

"Shambles: If I ask you not to curse in my home, it is not censorship."

This is where I part ways with you and Clinton.

Shambles may be an annoying pest, but he has NEVER risen to the baiting, nor stooped to the level of vulgar insults, the hostility, the cruel, mocking tone that the forum moderators and some others have directed at him. Ever. He has been a perfect gentleman, and that is worth something in my world.

The same certainly cannot be said for Joe & the clones. And it isn't just Shambles they attack and mock. I find their behavior, as supposed leaders here who model should be modelling the desired behavior for the rest of the forum, to be nauseating. They should NEVER add those little red remarks. Ever. Or mock other posters. Ever.

And if we are to attack people here for being annoying, I have a very long list...

All that needs to happen when someone like Shambles keeps at it is ignore him. Don't read his posts, and for god sake, don't respond to them!

I participate in two forums that don't require membership/sign-in, that allow for guest log-in. They don't come close to the rudeness and antagonism I see here. But then, nor do the Yahoo groups I frequent who do require log-in. So in my opinion, the sewer nature of this forum has nothing to do with the member/guest log-in, and everything to do with the clientele.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:32 PM

" It was just a request Clinton and not worth an argument is it?"
"wow do you argue everything"

No intention of arguing.... Dialogue from a different point of view isn't necessarily loaded with the negative connotations of argument....

Max... you are also a smart man... Even as little as I know you I know you're too smart to not realize that internet 'standards' have become those because those standards, through trial and error are what have proven to work best in this all too new medium.... In those respects Mudcat is a prehistoric relic of ancient times, where evolutionary cul-de-sacks sit around wavering camp-fires, hungry and shivering, waiting for the inevitable end....

"This is not every other message board on the net."
Oh please, Max.... Pointless idealism... Such will never, nor has ever kept a roof over anyone's head.... Lets talk about what is instead....

"I'm very likely to be here after their gone"
When you can't pay the bills? When your membership is as disgruntled as they are now, that is very very doubtful Max....   And even if you do survive.... Isn't it more important to THRIVE than to simply survive? Hooked up to the right machines, brain-dead corpses can be made to 'survive'....

"Flavorless so not to offend anyone."
That suggests to me you have precious little experience with other message boards... with other communities online.... EVERY message board out here thinks of itself as highly as Mudcat does.... They have JUST as much 'flavour', maybe even way more... There are dozens and dozens of message boards I can think of off the top of my head that are MUCH more vibrant than Mudcat is (especially of late) and one of the major reasons they are so successful is a well defined and enforced Code Of Conduct that membership is required to adhere to....   it keeps the trolls and the spammers and the ignoranuses out so that the community CAN thrive....

and well, your high-horse is showing....

"I have no interest in doing things their way"
Then you have to contend with what this place is going to change into without leadership.... without anyone at the helm.... Apparently, when left to it's own devices it wants to become more of a cesspool than anything else....

"money coming in has been thin so far this year"
Things are tough all over eh.... I know the feeling... and according to all economists I've heard from, things are only going to get worse....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:28 PM

It was for me over 3 years ago.

No one misses you either.

Subject: Posting of Events Information
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:23 PM

I think the only time that events threads become a burden, is when there are multiple threads currently active on a particular performer or venue.
Some of the performers and clubs have asked me to set up an edited PermaThread for them, and this has worked quite well. It's easy to set up, and easy to maintain. Check the PermaThread Index for the list of performer and venue PermaThreads. If the index doesn't provide the visibility you need, just post a new message to your thread on days when it's essential that people see the information in the thread (like the days before a particular gig).

In general, it's confusing and can be tedious, when there are several threads active on one subject.

-Joe-

P.S. Vixen, you can use my PayPal to make a contribution. The password is ******.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: jacqui.c
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:17 PM

Google ads - if it raises more cash I can't see why they shouldn't go up top.

Is there a 'Friends of the Mudcat' organisation this side of the Pond? If not can we get one going. I would be quite happy to get involved and, as I am now retired, can find the time for this.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Vixen
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:17 PM

Good heavens...I've been lurking and posting fairly regularly, albeit mostly cookielessly, and I had no idea about all this contentiousness. I guess I don't open the right threads!

I'm an infrequent contributor of $$--usually in response to a request, or in the purchase of Mudcat CDs, Camsco CDs, or tee shirts. If I can get my paypal password, I'll make a contribution via that today. Otherwise, a check will be on it's way.

It seems that since I've been here, the nature and behavior of the mudcat community goes in cycles. I like the 'cat the way it is, in terms of its organization. BS goes where the BS goes...music sticks together at the top of the heap. I didn't know that JoeO and Clones were so controversial--they have helped me a couple of times edit problems I'd submitted before I looked, so I think they're more useful than problematic.

I've attributed the UK/US balance shift to a much more lively folk/traditional community in the UK, and I've actually benefitted greatly from being exposed to such a vitally interested group of people.

Of all the sites I visit, this is the only one that still doesn't require a user to register before posting. There used to be lots of "open" forums (fora?), but they all seem to require registration now, and I suspect it's because of the issues the mudcat is experiencing.

In any case, the mudcat is an invaluable resource and has introduced me to a wonderful community of very cool people all over the world. I may sound a bit like Pollyanna here, but quite frankly, nothing is perfect: the mudcat's assets far outweigh any hassles I've experienced.

Just my $0.02, fwiw.

Max, it's a still a beautiful thing!

V

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Max
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:10 PM

Rough numbers, but The Mudcat costs about $375 per month to run. Broadband with upload speed is the biggest monthly expense. The google ads provide an average of $150 per month. Contributions and Auction average about $50 per month, and t-shirt/badges is a trickle.

I got the cost down this year by consolidating servers to reduce electricity, but did have to purchase a new Server and DSL router to handle the load.

Most years, we're close enough to breaking even that it doesn't matter to me. We've never made more than we spent.

If I moved the google ads to the top, I could probably do much better, but I've always wanted to avoid making ads overt. If it pays the bills though, maybe I should.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining now, it's just that money coming in has been thin so far this year, and I want to take the burden off me and the usual contributers. It's on too few people.

Shambles: If I ask you not to curse in my home, it is not censorship.

Clinton: You are a smart man, and I agree with almost everything you say, but wow do you argue everything. This is not every other message board on the net. I was here before them, and I'm very likely to be here after their gone. I have no interest in doing things their way. It's like lite beer. Flavorless so not to offend anyone.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:09 PM

Hey CH....I know that and I know it works elsewhere. But this place has been a bit different for a long time and maybe now hearing from the "horse's mouth" is needed at this time.   It was just a request Clinton and not worth an argument is it?

Spaw

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 12:04 PM

"this is the first time he's been asked by Max"

Why should that be any different?   The attitude of the membership needs to be that the mods ARE Max.....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 May 06 - 11:32 AM

"He's proved by his actions he is not though..... He's been asked and asked and asked to stow it, and still, even in this thread he clutters the place up with his bullflop"

Yeah, well CH, this is the first time he's been asked by Max. And even though he responded with one of his long posts and clickies and all, I would hope that the clear intention and statement of Max here will be enough. Then again.......Who knows..........

Spaw

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Grab
Date: 12 May 06 - 11:23 AM

Max, I don't know about anyone else, but I don't know how much money *does* go into running the Mudcat. Domain name, obviously, and 24/7 electricity to the server, and occasional spare parts when something dies. And broadband access too, although that's either for personal use or your business's use, so it's not Mudcat-specific.

On the credit side, Google ads are presumably bringing in a bit to help pay for stuff. And there's money off merchandise (T-shirts, badges, etc).

Don't get me wrong, I do think Mudcat's worth paying for. I'm well-stocked with Mudcat T-shirts :-) and when I can afford to send some money your way, I will. But like any charitable cause seeking donations, I think it's essential to tell everyone "it costs us $A per month to keep everything going, and we get $B from advertising and $C from merchandise, so we need $D from your donations, and on average we're $E short each month so that's coming straight out of my pocket". I'm not talking about formal accounts or any of that crap that official charities have to go through, but I think a simple round-numbers statement of how much it's costing you would be useful. Would there be any chance of you posting something like that?

Graham.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 11:21 AM

"It is just as easy to hijack a thread as it is to start a contentious thread. And probably even more annoying."
and -THAT- is probably the single best point made in this thread so far, on ANY subject!!!

"he needs to be a part of this community"
He's proved by his actions he is not though..... He's been asked and asked and asked to stow it, and still, even in this thread he clutters the place up with his bullflop

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 May 06 - 11:15 AM

Interesting thread to log on to.........

Sorry for any inconvenience Max but this site has grown tremendously and the net is what the net is. People will behave as adults (mostly) if they are given a well defined set of rules. On that point Clinton has it right.

I have been remiss in not sending in my bucks and running the occasional FUNd raiser thread. I'll get something in this month and try to get back to "something" monthly. I'll do what I can.

I know that rules have never been something you wanted to have on any formal basis but I've seen many types of moderation around the net and the best run sites where the folks act responsibly and adultlike are the places where a set of rules are strictly enforced with no questions asked. Mods may give warnings but they never give explanations. They just zap. The occasional "beef" is taken off thread and directly to an administrator. Joe is in an untenable position which makes him an easy target.

My bad of course for messing with Roger. He doesn't see he's been messing with us for years, but.........And to some degree, your bad too.   He's used an old quote hundreds of times and I know you'd like to have it that way (no rules) but it doesn't work once a site grows past a certain point which Mudcat has. Responding to Roger earlier might have saved some of this. I dunno'......So how about reinstating Roger and I'll agree to quit messing with him?   Just ask him to back-off the campaign against Joe. No more censorship complaints. If he understands that we are all playing under the same rules perhaps......maybe he might........well its worth a shot isn't it? Roger has written some beautiful poetry and songs and staying in that vein, he needs to be a part of this community.

I'm pretty happy just lurking these days anyway. The BS seems to have become less fun and the political stuff is too contentious even for me. Remember when we were all upset over the "Armalite" thread? Compared to today's threads, that was a friendly discussion.

The occasional great thread does come along still and I still enjoy posting to them though. See Jean Richie's beautiful video for instance. And I still owe you a kick in the balls, so maybe this year huh?

Spaw

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 12 May 06 - 11:09 AM

It is just as easy to hijack a thread as it is to start a contentious thread. And probably even more annoying.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 11:07 AM

I'd like to see an end to the BS section all together.... or put it on it's own page.... and let them do what they want there.... that way it doesn't really have to be part of Mudcat....

How likely do you think it is though John, that those contentious thread were actually started by members hiding behind the Guest moniker?!?! The only way to end that would be to not allow Guests to post at all.....

(just thinking outloud here)

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 May 06 - 11:04 AM

CH a couple of quite contentious threads have been started by guests recently, it would have been better had they not been able to do so. Perhaps if I said not able to start BS threads it might make more sense!
Giok

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 11:00 AM

The Shambles isn't the brightest bulb on the X-mas tree......

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 12 May 06 - 10:58 AM

I have been a member here for quite some time, mostly lurking, posting only occasionally, but I shake my head in wonder here, and have to ask Shambles, which part of "You too, should bid farewell" is ambiguous? You have been asked to leave by the owner of the place. Why are you still posting?

Thanks to Max and Joe & clones for a fun place that supplies a lot of information, some interesting chat, and more than a little comic relief.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 10:58 AM

Money: doesn't seem to me that if Mudcaat gets HALF the traffic it claims to get, that there's any good reason why it shouldn't be self-supporting...

Heck... if it gets the millions and millions of hits claimed, it should be MAKING money!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Bill D
Date: 12 May 06 - 10:52 AM

Once upon a time, Permathreads were sorta green, and at the top of the index.....now there are too many to do that way, but being hidden in the second level of the drop-down menu, they are too easy to ignore and miss. If there were a way to indicate what was in the menu, we all might read them more often. Same with "What's On"....I don't know how that might work, but am thinking. Right now, there aren't a huge number of 'local' events. If it gets out of hand, it will be obvious.In the meantime, those who post them should be clear in their titles.



As to other issues:
   "A camel is a horse designed by a committee"

We need to not throw too many personal ideas about management & operations about. If you think you have a serious one, communicate it privately thru channels, rather than creating a public free-for-all on how to run the place. If a general debate on some issue is needed, Max or Joe or Jeff can solicit it.

Money: Like some others, ready cash is not always easy for me....but I do have some LPs and occasional books...and I make things from wood that I could auction, like MMario does with shawls. I will start planning some system.

Max...pop in from time to time and say "hello" and give a nudge and maybe a clarification or two. (God supposedly handed down the 10 Commandments several thousand years ago, with no regular communications since.*wry grin* You see what has happened as his followers 'debated' the rules among themselves!)
   Let us know how things are going on the technical front, as well as the financial front....and a picture of the family, too, maybe. Last time I talked to you, you even said "hey, maybe so" to my suggestion that you post a picture of **Mudcat Central** so we can appreciate where all this mess resides.

.....keep on keeping on. We'll help.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 May 06 - 10:47 AM

You know what? My brother and I grew up and we don't argue anymore

If you and your brother grew-up on equal terms but at some point your brother could and was permitted to juggle the rules to have his way over every thing, was allowed to publicy abuse you, encourage others to follow this example and prevent you from saying what you wished - you may not argue with you brother any more - but you may have killed him.....

Max all that is expected is the level playing field you have always publicly stated that you beleive in - is clearly seen to be provided. This his not to prevent arguments but to enable us all to be able to agree to disagree and not want to kill one another.....

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Can you confirm if the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team's latest proposal to restrict the BS posting to members only and to 'review' all the Guest posting on the Music section - is going to be finally accepted by you or not.

And if this not going to happen (in the near future) - is our forum going to continue to be divided by and subject to the current imposed and personally motivated censorship actions that the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team has recently and publicy admitted have failed to impose the required 'peace'?      

Or is there now going to be a change to this approach? An end to anonymous editing button perhaps?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 10:41 AM

"Let guests post, but not start threads."

Honestly, why?

Is it really that important a distinction?

(No intended 'dig', but rather genuine curiosity)

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 May 06 - 10:34 AM

Let guests post, but not start threads.
If nasty Guest poster is Mudcat member hiding, add note saying 'Member' to the bottom of their post, and PM them with the warning, 'next time you may be named'.
Delete all rude Guest posts automatically
To do any or all of these things, all clones must sing off the same hymn sheet, and that will not happen while there is effectively only one final arbiter, as inevitably his/her POV will prevail.
Giok

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 10:34 AM

*Cross post*

" he does not hide behind anonimity when he has a go"

I'd never critizise anyone on the internet other than in the exact same manner that I would critize them to their face.... Nor do I expect to be treated any differently by anyone else....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 10:30 AM

Agreed... Guest postings are also a part of the problems here at mudcat of late.... Not so much the rare Guest that wanders in and posts, but I suspect it's the "Member", hiding behind the Guest moniker so they can sling crap, that is a MUCH bigger issue.... you know... cowards....

Just about every other messageboard online worth its salt requires a 'membership' to post (The most rigorous require an ISP email addy to be able to register)

Let Guests read... but make 'em join before they can post.....

(I suspect our software here doesn't have that ability though)

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 May 06 - 10:29 AM

Some of the posts in this thread are a good indication of the problems MudCat has ! Complaining that the Cat has became an English traditional site simply indicates that the Brits are active in their music - If there are no Bluegrass or Old Timey posts , WHY is That ??
Max and the clones are doing a damn fine job and just sniping at them anonymously does no good . I will at least give Clinton credit that he does not hide behind anonimity when he has a go !!
Personally , I think Mudcat is a wondrous thing that has brought me into contact with singers and musicians from all over the world , though perhaps some of them woould rather I stayed at home myself !
Max - Thank You , and more power to your elbow !!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: MBSLynne
Date: 12 May 06 - 10:24 AM

I agree with everything Max says, and even if I didn't....well it IS his site!

The members who have been mentioned as being a pain in the bum and unacceptable, and the one or two who have been hinted at but not named, are not, in my opinion, as bad as the Guests who feel they can say what they like and stir up what trouble they want because they are able to hide behind their anonymity. So if you are chucking out the named trouble makers, what can you do about the unnamed ones?

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 10:01 AM

" So it's time to grow up"

So have your mods moderate such posts.... Cause asking people online to be responsible is like asking people online to not download porn and bootleg music.....

If you want to raise the standards, raise them, and be sure they are enforced

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Max
Date: 12 May 06 - 09:56 AM

Of course I thank Joe and Jeff and the other Volunteers, they are the life-blood of this site.

I am simply attempting to raise our standards, and hold everyone accountable, myself included.

Arguments have become a virus that creeps into threads and takes all the joy right out of them. I am astounded at the absurdity of these arguments, just like the ones in this thread. People copy words and actually go hunting for a reason to disagree, complain and argue. This is ridiculous. People worry about their posts being used against them so much, they may not post anymore.

New people come in and start poking around and leave because it sounds as if we're all 3rd graders bickering.

Volunteers that engage publicly with anyone who is addicted to these petty arguments are making me as unhappy as those who start the arguments. I don't care about the small shit. It needs to be left alone. We have a lot of members, and it is impossible to please them all. We either water down to the lowest common denominator (which sucks) or we just quit squabbling. Joe has an impossible task, so I sympathize.

I used to argue with my brother all day and night about the stupidest shit. I am sure my mother was annoyed as could be. You know what? My brother and I grew up and we don't argue anymore. We accept that we are different people with different stances on simple things and very serious topics. We enjoy our differences because they are what makes our conversations interesting.

So it's time to grow up.


Oh, and I like local event posts. What's on is great, but a big job. I have no problem with threads for local events.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 May 06 - 09:47 AM

Max,
What can I say? Things have gotten nasty recently, again. Money is tight for me but I try to send what I can and use the Auction to do so.

I had not realized that my threads about Song Circles and House Concerts were a problem. In fact, I thought they were a way for people passing through to plan for a free meal and a bed along with some music. Many have taken advantage of the offer. But if Max wants it to stop, I am happy to post announcements in Susan's perma-thread. These are Mudcat events and I have no other means to advertise them. Also - I collect no money (except for the lobster boil and entrance fees for performing artists) so I have no budget for advertising. I will set up a tip bucket for Mudcat starting in June.

After giving this thread some thought I will have more to say on Tuesday.

Mary

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 09:31 AM

Did I ever claim otherwise?

That's not the point....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: redsnapper
Date: 12 May 06 - 09:27 AM

Pot and kettle Mr Hammond?

RS

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 06 - 09:23 AM

Shambles is no better than Martin Gibson or Peace....

"The "forum moderators"are doing much more harm than good"
"I wouldn't say there is much value to what is here anymore."
Well, you know where the door is obviously, right....

" I think this new demand for money"
Even the "Pretentious BS" station sends you a coffee mug or a fridge magnet for sending them money during one of their beg-a-thons.....

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,Former member/current occassional drop-in
Date: 12 May 06 - 09:13 AM

While some will feel vindicated and others admonished by Max's message, I believe it demonstrates that even Max has concerns with the way the forum has changed.

And I think his post may well be too little, too late for the forum. It certainly is for me. Why?

Number one reason: I said when the power was given to Joe and the clones to act as forum moderators, that it wouldn't take long before they were abusing their power. I was right, they did, and I and others headed for the door.

The problem? They allowed sociopathic posting by people like Martin Gibson and Peace to remain, and started attacking people like Shambles, who have NEVER retaliated or sought petty revenge.

The current forum moderators are very vengeful people, and vengeful people do not make good forum moderators. Nor do people who are emotionally involved in the day to day social network of the forum.

At the same time the forum was rapidly going downhill by being made safe for the Martin Gibsons of the Mudcat world, and the censorship of anyone or any post Joe and the clones didn't like getting deleted with ever increasing fervor and regularity, the forum reliability issues are really what drove me away for good.

It was such a pain in the ass to try and get into the forum for so long, and then you would get in and see what a shit hole it had become, it just wasn't worth the effort, especially because I originally started coming here for bluegrass and old time music. Which is nowhere to be found now--Mudcat is an English traditional music forum, not even "British".

And as to contributions? Well, why would anyone contribute to continue with this crap?

There once was a great resource online called Mudcat. But I wouldn't say there is much value to what is here anymore. Not even the Digital Tradition, because nothing has been done to upgrade it. When you compare DT to other excellent music websites, it doesn't come close to the quality you see elsewhere online.

So, like I said, I think this new demand for money (with no accountability, as always, which irks me too) is too little, too late. We not only haven't seen any improvements to the DT or forum in terms of reliability or upgrades. The "forum moderators" are a pain in the ass with their trigger happy delete buttons, and are doing much more harm than good to the social fabric here. The shit flinging is disgusting.

And I should send my money anyway because...??? Because it means more of the same? I don't think so. There are better online music causes to contribute to, where my money will be used more respectfully, and towards making actual improvements.

IMO, Mudcat has had it's natural life. If it dies, it dies. Everything does. Maybe Mudcat's time is up. It was for me over 3 years ago.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Dave Ruch
Date: 12 May 06 - 09:00 AM

My paypal contribution has been sent. Thanks for all the great work that goes into the site!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: MMario
Date: 12 May 06 - 08:53 AM

As I mentioned, I'd be happy to see the "What's on?" permathread further developed for this use rather than the general threads which are intended mainly for wide-ranging musical discussion (which used to be the case six or seven years ago when I first joined up).

Max asked me a while back to take on the support and maintainence of this thread. I've been slacking; I will admit. I will try to correct the situation soon.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: kendall
Date: 12 May 06 - 08:36 AM

Does anyone not know why the English are called "Limeys" ?

It was the English navy that discovered a cure for scurvy. Vitamin C. as found in lemons and Limes(Just another thing that they get no credit for. I see that title as a compliment.
When I call my wife, Jacqui, a Limey, she just smiles because she know is origin of the term.

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: sian, west wales
Date: 12 May 06 - 08:23 AM

I too would like to say thank you to Max. And to Joe, and to Joe Clones.

Re: argy-bargy on the threads, recently I've been thinking I must be a bit dim: people keep referring to bad blood in some threads ... and I've been completely unaware of it! But then, I really do think that, for the most part, you can tell from the thread title if it's going to be informative (BS or otherwise) and it's up to us not to participate. At all.

Micca, thanks for mentioning FoM. I contribute, and I've been wondering what the situation is. Please keep me informed. I've never seen the need for members-only areas here (particularly if you "Don't feed the Trolls") but I might make an exception for finances. It might be useful to have a 'space' where we could check on how WE contributors are doing. I have no interest in the Expenditure side of things though. If the Cat is up and running and providing the service, I will happily assume that all is well and enough said.

Re: Limeys v Americans (understanding that Limeys in this instance means Brits, and perhaps Aussies? and Americans includes Canadians) I'm here for the invaluable info I've had from both sides of the pond. I tend to respond atlength to things involving Welsh music, but I've often found that N Americans are very interested in this for heritage reasons. And I've had really useful info from the western side of the pond when I've tried to trace bits of the Welsh tradition 'over there'. And the Mudcat Libary thread was a Great Idea! (Although it ended up costing me money! Still is, for that matter.) Then too, it's great to be able to keep up with things happening in Canada, 'my home and native land'.

Mudcat is a tremendous resource. Long may she continue.

siân,west wales

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: kendall
Date: 12 May 06 - 08:14 AM

Max for King!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: jacqui.c
Date: 12 May 06 - 08:12 AM

Max - I told you at the Getaway that the Mudcat has literally changed my life, definitely for the better.

I quite often visit the UK and am grateful for the threads on local sessions, giving me the opportunity to visit different folk groups around the country. Redsnapper - where are you? I wopuld love to get to visit sometime when I'm over.

I must admit to being more of a lurker in the music session as I do not feel that I have sufficient knowledge of folk music to really make much of a contribution but I have learned a lot from the vast store of knowledge of those who do contribute.

In general I love the BS section. I can catch up with friends, laugh at the wit of some and even lock horns with others. I now have many friends on three continents, something that would not have been possible without this site.

At the risk of inviting opprobrium from certain quarters I would agree with Max about the two members he has suggested should leave the forum. Whilst both make valuable contributions to the music threads they both make the forum a more unpleasant place to visit. If they are unable to change they should be the ones to leave - the fact that their attitudes drive good people away is not, IMHO, acceptable. It is frustrating to find, again and again, that either of these posters are using the site for their own very selfish purposes, to the detriment of the majority of the membership.

However, whatever happens, Kendall and I will do what we can, within our means, to financially support the Mudcat. I would be happy to pay an annual subscription fee if it meant that this site kept going. We will put items on the auction and I will be talking to the other members of our song circle about possibly taking ua collection when we meet.

Long live the 'Cat!

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 May 06 - 08:04 AM

Lists for SE Queensland Australia

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: kendall
Date: 12 May 06 - 07:59 AM

Most of my contributions have been in the form of CDs, books, and the latest was the big poster from the gig with Utah Phillips. I still can't get over what that brought for the Mudcat!

Now, Jacqui discovered another copy of my book, STORIES TOLD IN THE KITCHEN, and that is going on the auction along with a tape of BEGINNERS LUCK.

In the near future, we plan to offer DVDs of that performance with Utah Phillips. It is a field recording and not perfect, but who is?

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 12 May 06 - 07:41 AM

Max - thanks for providing a great site.

As another of your Limey's I'd just like to say that my interest isn't only in the UK side of things. Although my interest these days is in British traditional song, when I started out in the 60s it was American singer/songwriters and American bluesmen that provided half the things I was singing. Although my days as a Tees Delta bluesman a far behind me now (US readers: the Tees is the river my hometown of Middlesbrough is on) I still read threads on early blues and I follow threads on American traditional songs, and post to both when I have anything useful to add. They have inspired me to listen to some new people and to go back and relisten to some of the ones I already knew.

Without Mudcat I might never have stumbled on American Memory or the Levy collection (and dozens of other sites I have bookmarked either because they were mentioned here or because me searching for something related to Mudcat led me to them). I almost never read BS threads (miserable bugger I am, no doubt) but I do post tunes (not everyone can) and I do try and answer song requests, whatever type they are (I am good with search engines, not everybody is. Trying to find information on songs had taken me to some interesting sites and taught me some useful things). I try to post only factual things - once you start posting opinions you're asking for a fight; give a man faith and you almost always give him blinkers. (And important issue though the PEL is in the UK, by the 2000th thread I admit I gave up on it!)

As albanit said above the UK is relatively small and the UK catters tend to meet up a lot at the same festivals; they know each other in the real world too. So it's not surprising they gather here. I've met only a few of the Americans (Joe Offer on a visit several years ago, Dick and Susan briefly, Alaska Mike and Twmmie stayed with us last year) but there are plenty I'd like to meet for various reasons, just from seeing their posts here (off the top of my head - MMario, Sorcha (missed her on her visit), katlaughing, Gargoyle who posts infuriating things, then occasionally catches you out with some deeply nice post about someone and plenty more if I was to look at a few threads) , and I intend to get over to the Getaway one year and make good on that. (There are also some of the other non-UK too - several of the Australians, Roberto, Wolfgang, Masato I'd like to meet too. And some still in the UK too - I've never met Malcolm Douglas yet, and he doesn't even live that far away).

Once again thanks for the site. I have no complaints about it (when someone's giving you a free site that provides such pleasure, how can you complain) or the people who moderate it (the few interventions I've seen, seem to be fair. I always exercise my own intervention - if I don't like a thread I just don't bother with it).

A paypal payment will be on the way.

Best wishes (from my longest ever, non song-related post!)

Mick

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 May 06 - 07:40 AM

Good to finally hear from you, Max. Thanks for writing. I have to say I, too, was disappointed you didn't say anything about the Clones and also show more support for Joe and Jeff.

I think it has been a blast to have the UKers and that, as someone else pointed out, with our great distances in North America, it's a bit more difficult for any of us to get together.

More stuff for the auction as soon as we get our house stuff moved around and settled.

luvyakat

Subject: RE: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: GUEST,Check my IP :)..a Member
Date: 12 May 06 - 07:25 AM

...who is doing what Bill D says.

Thanks for posting Max
I think I agree with most of what you say but I am having some trouble with your remark to Joe Offer.
Joe and the Clones have had a raw deal here lately and Joe Offer has been the target of one of the Troublemakers you have mentioned for a long time now.

So what I am thinking is that rather than publicly scolding this Man for doing all he could---- (which by the way does not send a very positive message to the other people who also give their time for free to help run this great place behind the scenes)---- with compulsive and vile posters I was hoping that, if you ever posted again, you would be publicly Thanking Joe Offer and the others that work so hard to keep your vision alive.

Anyways that is one thing that I have formed an opinion on (even before you started your Thread last night) and I also wanted to mention it before another Member takes over this Thread. This is "The Thread" this Member has been waiting for...sad eh? (a lot of valubale ammunition in your post Max for copy and paste purposes)

Thank again Max. I was directed here when I was in search of a resource to learn about American Traditional Music which, because of the Mudcat, has become something that I am learning more and more about and loving more and more by the Day, just not daily on the Mudcat anymore.
Being a Non American Musican now living in America the Mudcat was like striking gold.

I don't have much, but you can have some of the little I have at the moment, as the DT is too valuable a resource and that is not something I have to process in order to arrive at decision about helping the Mudcat financially..

For the record. Thanks to ALL the people that have made the Mudcat available to me. I can only speak for myself.

Just hope your message isn't too little too late.
Sincerly.