Folklore: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 08:02 PM

Romeo and Tybalt did not duel. They fought. A duel is much more formal and is a prearranged meeting, generally on an isolated ground. The Capulets and the Montagues were in the middle of a low grade interfamily war. For an illustrative example, see West Side Story, based on Romeo and Juliet.

Saw the Central Park "Much Ado about Nothing" at the Delacorte Theater last week. Strongly recommend. The play was well staged and the only technical glitches were when the batteries went sour on the body mikes, making them cut in and out. Why they could not do quick changes on them, I do not know, as in both cases, it was relatively early in the show.

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 07:02 PM

Gargoyle, I find that Polonius speech a bit strange. Generally in the play Shakespeare seems to take the piss out of Polonius as a pompous old fart. So, is Shakespeare satirisng this advice, as being laughably old fashioned? because it actually seems perfectly sound advice.

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 06:47 PM

Well done folks!

I believed it might have fallen (obviously NOT) into HAMLET

When Polonius gives chivalrous advice to his son before sending him off to school.

Yet here, Laertes? Aboard, aboard, for shame!
The wind sits in the shoulder of your sail,
And you are stay'd for. There- my blessing with thee!
And these few precepts in thy memory
Look thou character. Give thy thoughts no tongue, Nor any unproportion'd thought his act.
Be thou familiar, but by no means vulgar:
Those friends thou hast, and their adoption tried,
Grapple them unto thy soul with hoops of steel;
But do not dull thy palm with entertainment
Of each new-hatch'd, unfledg'd comrade. Beware
Of entrance to a quarrel; but being in,
Bear't that th' opposed may beware of thee.
Give every man thine ear, but few thy voice;
Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgment.
Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy,
But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy;
For the apparel oft proclaims the man,
And they in France of the best rank and station
Are most select and generous, chief in that.
Neither a borrower nor a lender be;
For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.
This above all- to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
Farewell. My blessing season this in thee!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 05:24 PM

I enjoyed that.....anything else about Shakespeare?

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 05:24 PM

This passage is also excellent advice for the right way to negotiate disagreements that arise in the course of threads on the Mudcat. Indeed there is "Much virtue in 'If'" in these circumstances.

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: Peter T.
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 03:49 PM

And do not forget Walter Raleigh's poem on the subject, "The Lie".

(Which plays shew courtesy? Certainly Love's Labour Lost, but I have always regarded Troilus and Cressida as the most interesting -- the graceful treatment of the Trojans in the Greek camp is contrasted with the unspeakable cynicism of the rest of the play.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 03:39 PM

Delighted to be of service, M Ted. When you are contemplating the size of your annual donation to Max, recall that your obscure Shakespearean query was answered in 2 minutes, on a folk forum. (I didnt need a computer, I got your allusion, because in my misspent youth I once played Amiens(the one who sings a lot of songs) in "As you like it" in an open air production in Stratford-on-Avon. And why I remembered the lines is because I played a very naughty prank on the actor playing Touchstone, during that very speech, at a matinee performance.(When a certain amount of naughtiness is traditionally allowed).

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 03:12 PM

Greg: Yes, this is it!

For your quick and kind attention to the point, one must needs recognize that you are a Gentleman, and for the fact that you have revealed so quickly what I sought in vain, your scholarship ever should be praised--

I had thought that it was somewhere in "Love's Labour Lost" at first, then culled through the Henry plays. Despairing on Shakespeare, I thought that it might be mentioned elsewhere in literature, and ended up parsing "THE COURTYER OF COUNT BALDESSAR CASTILIO"
(as translated by Sir Thomas Hoby), which had been partly responsible for the introduction of effront-based dueling into Elizabethan society--This, of course can be found by the curious or the perilously idle on-line, as can the Works Attributed to Shakespeare, from whence the following was culled--


TOUCHSTONE:

O sir, we quarrel in print, by the book; as you have
books for good manners: I will name you the degrees.
The first, the Retort Courteous; the second, the
Quip Modest; the third, the Reply Churlish; the
fourth, the Reproof Valiant; the fifth, the
Countercheque Quarrelsome; the sixth, the Lie with
Circumstance; the seventh, the Lie Direct. All
these you may avoid but the Lie Direct; and you may
avoid that too, with an If. I knew when seven
justices could not take up a quarrel, but when the
parties were met themselves, one of them thought but
of an If, as, 'If you said so, then I said so;' and
they shook hands and swore brothers. Your If is the
only peacemaker; much virtue in If.

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: alanabit
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 02:26 PM

I can't be bothered to look it up at the moment, but I know that Richard II starts with a planned duel between Aumerle (I think) and Bolingbrooke. If Greg hasn't cracked it for you already, you might try having a look in there. There must be loads of other duels in Shakespeare, but they don't all spring to mind at the moment. Jeannie is probably the one for this. She knows about that stuff.
Romeo duels with Tybalt in Romeo and Juliet. I can't remember whether an actual duel breaks out between Proteus and Valentine in Two Gentlemen of Verona... (The soppy gits kiss and make up anyway - not enough bloodletting for my tastes...) Hamlet duels with Laertes and muffs it, of course.... You have got me going. I'll probably be awake all night thinking about this now!

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 02:03 PM

I've had a look in my trusty "Complete Works", always on hand by the eating table in order to settle arguments.. I am not 100% sure it is the passage you are talking about, but "As you like it" Act 5 scene 4 has Touchstone discussing the seven degrees of insults in a dispute. Can't do any kind of clickie,sorry. Have a look and see if that's the passage you are remembering.

Subject: RE: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 01:53 PM

I think it might be Touchstone in "As you like it". I havent had a look yet, but you've intrigued me. I will have a browse.

Subject: Chivalry/Courtesy in Shakespeare?
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 01:51 PM

Help! I am trying to find terminology that I read somewhere in Shakespeare that refer to the different degrees of courtly response to insults--the first being    to ignore, the next being to laugh it off, then disagree congenially, then to take offense, on down to slapping the offender,and to dueling to the death.--I culled through all the places that I thought were likely--but haven't come up with anything--any assistance will be greatly appreciated!

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I think this belongs in the Folklore category.
-Joe Offer-