Who Wrote Shakespeare's..ummm..songs?

Subject: Who Wrote Shakespeare's..ummm..songs?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 12:00 AM

Please excuse this question if you've already seen it in the "Mummers" thread. I had an album many years ago of a man named John Runge (on Washington) who sang old songs like "Poor Old Horse" on one side and songs from Shakespeare on the other. Who wrote the tunes? Do we know? Were they contemporary or composed later. Any help or websites I could check out would be greatly appreciated. I've gotten interested lately in the Shakespeare/Marlowe/Oxford/Bacon..who wrote what? But no one mentions the songs. Thanks

rick

Subject: RE: Who Wrote Shakespeare's..ummm..songs?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 01:31 AM

Ah! the old Shakespeare couldn't have written Shakespeare, because he wasn't a nobleman gambit has raised it's ugly head again. Try Mark Twain's theory, Shakespeare was written by another man with the same name. Shakespeare didn't actually write all the songs in his plays, he borrowed some. For the songs and their tunes see Peter Seng's 'Vocal Songs in the Plays of Shakespeare', 1967 (there are several earlier on the subject). A few songs are on my website in Scarce Songs files (with tunes). Marlowe wa killed in a tavern brawl about 20 years before Shakespeare died. What did the Earl of Oxford or Francis Bacon ever write that was similar to anything Shakespeare ever wrote? (Hint: Bacon wrote plays in 1588, and posthumous ones were publihed in 1594 and 1595, and De Vere/Oxford had one in 1584. De Vere is too early and Marlow died in 1593, a year before the earliest possible date for a play from Shakepeare.) Also look at Sam Schoenbaum's 'Shakespeare's Lives' for factual information about Shakespeare. I think this recently came out in paperback.

Subject: RE: Who Wrote Shakespeare's..ummm..songs?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 02:04 AM

Thanks Bruce. I doubt they(Baconians/Oxfordians...etc.)could ever convince me, but my gosh are they passionate! I'd never read the Twain piece til a month ago and it was great fun. I'm afraid that after rejecting computers for so many years (on the grounds that I was just too damned stupid to even turn the thing on) I've become a total "net slut". I've even plowed through Virginia Woolf, so now Heather has someone to discuss her with.
rick

Subject: RE: Who Wrote Shakespeare's..ummm..songs?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 03:43 AM

Somebody said that there wouldn't have been many, if any, "mute, inglorious Miltons" in Gray's country churchyard, because talent will out. If old Will had been a genius, the chances are that he'd have got noticed; and if he was very good, he'd have got to the top. Remember, he had a grammar school education - he'd have read the Latin classics in the original, and so he'd have plenty of source material.

Well, it's not done for a Staffordshire man to support a Warwickshire man (although it's ok when it's against Americans!), so I'll pont out that there were many 16th century writers, who've had a raw deal from history. Go and read Marlowe and Jonson and Greene (who?), and see who you like best.

Steve

Subject: RE: Who Wrote Shakespeare's..ummm..songs?
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 03:26 PM

No, Bruce, Marlowe wasn't killed in a tavern brawl. He was likely assassinated under extremely suspicious circumstances by other spies in a lady's house (rented for the day), in Deptford. There is a recent elegant and scholarly discussion of the whole topic in a book called The Reckoning. The author notes, while canvassing various alternative theories of Marlowe's death, that some have suggested that Marlow didn't really die, but was spirited away and wrote all of Shakespeare's plays. He delicately remarks that this doesn't even constitute an alternative. On the other hand, there have been some reasonable arguments that Marlowe might have had a hand in one of the Henry VI plays (both he and Shakespeare worked for Lord Strange at the time). But the Henry VI plays are the TV trash of their day -- anyone could have had a hand in those scripts.

Yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Who Wrote Shakespeare's..ummm..songs?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 03:54 PM

I never got or kept a record of the author or title of a book that came out about 25 years ago, but my recollection is the author had turned up the official inquiry records concerning Marlowe's death, and put to torch all speculation that he didn't really die.

I was wrong about the earliest date of a Shakespeare play - c 1591 for Henry VI.

As to had a hand in someone else's plays, there will never be an end to speculations of that sort.

Subject: RE: Who Wrote Shakespeare's..ummm..songs?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 04:52 PM

The 'tavern brawl' description looks as good as any I've seen.

Coroner's Inquest into Marlowe's death

Subject: RE: Who Wrote Shakespeare's..ummm..songs?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 05:13 PM

Hi, Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm feeling a little bit like one of those "new mudcatters" who earnestly ask about the merits of Bob Dylan as a folksinger, and haven't a clue who Jeanie Robertson, Horton Barker or Bosie Sturdivant is. 'Fraid that's me in the Shakespeare thing. I'm getting the idea that anyone with half a brain KNOWS that there never actually WAS a controversy, and all those Oxfordians etc. are dumb kooks with far too much time on their hands. I may very well come to that same conclusion myself, but I'm still going to plow through the verbiage as long as it's interesting. All I actually wanted to know was do we know what tunes were played to the songs during Shakespeare's lifetime. The title of the thread was one of my weaker attempts at humour.
Hi Bruce, I'm embarrassed to say I haven't visited your website yet (forgive me Sandy), but if you'll let me know how to get there, you may never get rid of me.
Thanks,
Rick

Subject: RE: Who Wrote Shakespeare's..ummm..songs?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 07:18 PM

www.erols.com/olsonw

Subject: RE: Who Wrote Shakespeare's..ummm..songs?
From: Lucius
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 07:30 PM

Shakespeare's siongs, do you mean like Orlando Sleepeth, Kemp's Jig or Go from my Window. I believe that many of them were done by the popular lutenints. Re: John Dowland, Francis Campion, Francis Pinkering. If you have a question about a particular tune, I might have it in some of my lute music. OR AM I OFF THE MARK ENTIRELY? and you are refering to some other...ummm...songs?

Subject: RE: Who Wrote Shakespeare's..ummm..songs?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 07:35 PM

Nope, your on the mark. Thanks Lucius

Subject: RE: Who Wrote Shakespeare's..ummm..songs?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 09:35 PM

I gather you mean then songs from Shakespeare's period, rather than Shakespeare's songs.
Songs from all the English songbooks, 1597-1623 are in E. Doughtie's 'Lyrics from English Airs', except for those of Thomas Campion and the madrigal books. He doesn't give the tunes, but most are fairly easily found. Several are among the ballad tunes on my website. Lute ones of the 16th century are in John Ward's 'Music for Elizabethan Lutes', 2 vols., 1992.

Subject: RE: Who Wrote Shakespeare's..ummm..songs?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 21 Apr 99 - 10:01 PM

There are also 16th century ballads and songs as well as Ravenscroft's early 17th century song books on the SCA minstrel site which you can click onto near the bottom of my homepage. Sources of the text of all known 16th century broadside ballads that were sung are listed in the broadside ballad index on my website, with all kwown tunes for them in the broadside ballad tune files.

Subject: RE: Who Wrote Shakespeare's..ummm..songs?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 12:12 AM

G'day Peter T (& Bruce O),

A recent (early 1990s) book on Marlowe (since mysteriously gone missing from ... or amongst ... my 3,000 odd books) shows the the "lady" was the widow of a senior government official (~Minister for the Navy) and the house appears to have been (ironically) what we would now call an espionage "safe house".

Marlowe's killers were professional spies and they claim he attacked them with a knife and they, uninjured, grappled for the knife and inadvertently stabbed him directly to the brain, via the eye socket. Of course, that doesn't look at all like a professional contract ... does it?

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Who Wrote Shakespeare's..ummm..songs?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 03:30 AM

I read that book, Bob - or another one in similar vein: it was by a woman, whose name escapes me. Also recommended, Robert Nye (remembered the author, forgot the titles): a book of Mrs Shakespeare's diary and that business about the second-best bed; and one about Falstaff (called "Falstaff", I think).

Steve

Subject: RE: Who Wrote Shakespeare's..ummm..songs?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 03:57 AM

Lucius, Bruce and others - Were the songs in Shakespeare plays written by the playwright, or were they common songs of the time? Do we have any of the tunes used in the initial productions of the plays, or have the tunes all been added later?
I've never seen a Shakespeare script with a tune - are the tunes readily available? I have to say I've never heard a song I liked in a Shakespeare play. Give me Gilbert & Sullivan any old time.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Who Wrote Shakespeare's..ummm..songs?
From: Peter T.
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 12:32 PM

The original discoverer of the records of Marlowe was a 20's scholar named Leslie Hotson. The Reckoning (1992) by Charles Nicholl shows fairly conclusively that Marlowe was also a spy for Sir Francis Walsingham (Geoffrey Rush, for those of you who have seen Elizabeth) and others. Marlowe was involved in various plots, mostly to undermine the Catholic intrigues and assassination plots against Elizabeth. He was arrested from time to time, most notably for forgery in the Netherlands just before he was killed. It is fairly clear that the murder was a setup, and that the only witnesses were the three other spies in the room. It was part of a complex struggle between Lord Essex's men and Raleigh. The Shakespearean connection if any, seems to have something to do with the fact that Lord Strange was one of the people the Catholics were hoping might come forward in the struggle over the succession to Elizabeth (before it went to James of Scotland). What makes this interesting is the recent suggestion that Shakespeare was a tutor or player in the late 1580's in Lancashire, which was a hotbed of Catholics. And there have been persistent rumours that Shakespeare was a hidden Catholic (his mother was a Catholic). One of Marlowe's jobs seems to have been to infiltrate this kind of group -- why he was working for Lord Strange, why he was a very convenient member of Raleigh's circle, and so on.

And so on...

Yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Who Wrote Shakespeare's..ummm..songs?
From: Lucius
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 03:13 PM

My copy of teh colected works is packed away, so all I can speak to from memory is Orlando Sleepeth. Words by W. Shakespeare? Music by John Dowland..DEFINATELY. He also wrote a piece for one of the early masters of Shakespeare's plays "Tarkelltons Receseration [sp?]" An annonymous piece about another actor (and morris dancer) was Will Kemp of Kemp's Jig fame. I have played "Go from my Window" at concerts (on lute) and had people identify it as from Shakespeare, but I am relying on heresy. And I agree, great plays, but give me the Begger's Opera when it comes to tunes.

Subject: RE: Who Wrote Shakespeare's..ummm..songs?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 22 Apr 99 - 03:38 PM

Richard Tarleton died in 1587 or 1588, and didn't really overlap Shakespeare. Will Kemp was succeeded by Robert Armin in 1604. There's a version of "Go from my Window" in Tho. Dekker's 'The Rape of Lucrece'. By and large the tunes by Dowland, Morley, Jones, Campion, et al. weren't in ballad and folksong style. Most of the original songs for the tunes in 'The Beggars Opera', 1728, are known (see the Ballad Opera Tune Index on my website).

Subject: RE: Who Wrote Shakespeare's..ummm..songs?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 23 Apr 99 - 02:59 AM

G'day Peter T,

There are really two parallel threads running here - The songs and the spying/political/religious connections of Shakespeare, Marlowe et al.

The Reckoning sounds suspiciously like the book I havelost or misplaced. Maybe, if I keep the title in mind, I might find it.

Your comments on Shakespeare's probable Catholicism resonate with another book I have not lost ... this is by Ian(?) Wilson (author of The Turin Shroud and a devout Catholic). Title is something like Shakespeare - the True Facts and it covers this area in detail. From Memory, I think Both Shakespeare's father and his daughter were fined for 'recusancy' - failure to attend the major (and compulsory) services of the Church of England - Christmas, Easter &c. Significantly, Shakespeare paid the fines ... at least for his daughter.

Wilson explains just how serious Catholicism was viewed in Elizabethan days and shows how Shakespeare may well have done a lot to keep his head down ... and attached.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Who Wrote Shakespeare's..ummm..songs?
From: Lucius
Date: 23 Apr 99 - 09:02 AM

I'm obviously over my head, as my knowledge of Shakespeare's songs is just what other people have I dentified for me, but I'd be foolish to not take this opportunity to ask about some of the tunes that I've been playing for years. In particular, do you have anyinformation about the "morris dancing" Will Kemp, if there is any truth to this?

Subject: RE: Who Wrote Shakespeare's..ummm..songs?
From: Doug
Date: 23 Apr 99 - 01:49 PM

My understanding of the "common wisdom" is that Shakespeare wrote the lyrics for the songs in his plays, and others wrote the music. There is no certainty about what melodies were used because all such information disappeared during the Puritan Nightmare, when the theatres were closed for decades. There is a widespread tradition that the melody commonly used for "The Wind and the Rain" from Twelfth Night is "original" i.e. is the one used when the King's Men performed the show for the first time. Virtually all the other melodies have been composed since the Restoration for specific productions.

Subject: RE: Who Wrote Shakespeare's..ummm..songs?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 23 Apr 99 - 02:57 PM

"The Gods of Love that sits above", Much Ado About Nothing: this is the opening of an old ballad by William Elderton. Tune is on my website, B163. Song is in the Braye Manuscript at Yale, and the administrater of the SCA Minstrel website is contemplating getting a microfilm copy of the manuscript to get the whole song. The first verse is on the SCA Minstel website.
"It was a lover and his lass" in As You Like: It has a tune by Robert Morley, 'The First Book of Ayres', 1600.
"O Mistress Mine", Twelfth Night: printed and MS copies are noted in Seng book cited above.
"Farewell deere heart", Twelfth Night: Music and a version of the song in Robert Jones' The First book of Songs and Ayres, 1600.
"Hey Jolly Robin", Twelfth Night: Tune by Wm Cornyshe c 1520. Seng gives a complete copy of the song.
"In youth when I did love", Hamlet: Vaux's "I loathe that I did love", Tune is B216 on my website
"Take o take those lips away"; Measure for measure: tune composed later, c 1650 by John Wilson.
"The poore Soule sat singing, by a Sicamore tree", Othello: Probably not by Shakespeare. Broadside version of the song and its contemporary tune in Scarce Songs 2 on my website.
"Hearke, hearke, the Larke at Heauens gate sings", Cymbeline: See Sengs for tune in manuscripts.
"Jog-on, jog-on, the foot-path way", The Winter's Tale: Tune B251 and B252 on my website, but did Shakespeare write the song? Longer copies are known.
"Full fadom fiue thy Father lies", The Tempest: For an early tune by Robert Johnson see Seng.
"Where the Bee sucks, there suck I", The Tempest: for early MS copies of the tune see Seng.

In addition, there are several recognizable fragments of old ballads in Shakespeare's plays, (e.g., "Some men for sudden joys do weep, but I for sorrow sing"- John Carelesse) but the original tunes are unknown. There's also a tune used in Hamlet for Ophelia's song from the early 18th century, but it is not known how far back this goes, (Tomorrow it is St. Valentine's Day, on my website).

Subject: RE: Who Wrote Shakespeare's..ummm..songs?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Apr 99 - 01:28 AM

Peter T. Thanks so much for the articles on Shakespeare. The good news is that now Heather's interested. The bad news is that because of me this damn thread will probably be around for another day. That DeVere guy sounds like quite a piece of work. I think I'll call up Latoya Jackson's Psychic Hotline to finally put the whole matter to rest.

Subject: RE: Who Wrote Shakespeare's..ummm..songs?
From: Peter T.
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 02:13 PM

Dear Rick, Time to start a Maria Callas thread!

Yours, Peter T.