BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 05:39 PM

There's no reason to think it has to work like that. In countries where there is good health care, better education and a good system of assistance for people who need it, notably in Western Europe, the native born population is actually declining. That in itself causes problems, but they are problems which can be handled.

There is every reason to believe that this pattern recurs wherever this situation exists. If you know that there is a good chance that some of your children will die, and a virtual certainty that you will, be totally dependent on their support as you grow older, it is hardly surprising that many children will be born. Where there are falling death rates, associated with better health care and other factors, that can mean a surge in population, but this is essentially a temporary phenomenon as people adjust to changed circumstances.

On this analysis it would be wise to encourage developing nations to build up their systems of social welfare and so forth. This is of course the reverse of what is actually the case. It seems likely that this is a factoir in delaying falls in the birth rate in such nations.

The main drain on the limited resources of the planet by a long way is the wasteful lifestyle of wealthy countries, notably the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 01:10 PM

Now I don't know the answer to this, and I take no sides on the matter but, if we keep [slowly] providing better health care and better education for the poorer peoples of this earth, then more will survive the diseases and starvation that kill so many now.
So then the already too large world population increases, and finite resources dry up, and eventually we will all die off. It's just that the way we're going now this process will happen more quickly than it otherwise would.
There are those who say that what we need is another world war, or a flu pandemic to reduce the world's population a bit, funnily enough it sometimes looks as though both are on the cards to happen fairly soon.
Lord help us all!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 12:34 PM

Well said!!

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 10:58 AM

Mainly works? In some places, and some times. On a global or longterm scale I think that is rather open to doubt. Our "system that mainly works" means destitution for enormous numbers of our fellow human beings, and devastation for the planet which puts a questiion mark against our very survival.

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 10:34 AM

If you don't like the system, suggest a better one. One that actually works, that is. If you can't, don't bitch about the one that we have, that mainly works.

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 10:10 AM

I see were back to blaming one another.
Competetive industry requires cheap labour, cheap raw materials and cheap energy.   Surely its obvious that unemployment ,then obsolesence, then a feeling of worthlessness will be the ultimate result.

All the political parties are engaged in the game of keeping this system alive, though its well past its SBD.
Theres some excuse for that ideology, but no excuse for not making a start on something new.

This society has been conditioned into expecting an ever increasing standard of living, regardless of whats going on in the rest of the world. The result is a large and ever widening gap between rich and poor, which will mean conflict in the future.

Were living in fairyland, the politician know it but nobody has the guts to break the news to Joe Public.

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 09:14 AM

And mass unemployment and the devastation of communities were a price worth paying for that?

Selective memories work both ways.

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 05:10 AM

Not misty eyed admiration WLD, merely an appreciation of the very few things she did that had positive results, e.g. paying off the huge amounts Labour borrowed from the IMF, and lowering the disastrous inflation rate.

Too many political fundamentalists have selective memories when it comes to the achievements of the other side, IMO.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 04:50 AM

Really Giok? perhaps its just me. I seem to detect a certain misty eyed note of admiration drifting into the conversation whenever her name comes up.

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 04:12 AM

No dafter than voting Monster Raving Loony - after all, the MRL came up with all day pub opening and passports for pets.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 04:05 AM

Don't see anybody yearning for the return of Thatcherism on here, what I do see in some cases is doctrinaire socialism and the unreasoning hatred of the Tories that it engenders. At least the majority of us on here can see the eedjits in the ranks of our own chosen parties. I mean look at me I vote Scottish nationalist how daft is that?
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 03:56 AM

No point Don, as I said earlier, they're all politicians and therefore not to be trusted. Where would you emigrate to? Australia? Sounds like their lot are as daft as ours. The USA? 'Nuff said about them! Canada? In a book called 'How To Be A Canadian' there's a chapter titled 'How Canadian Politics Works' which is two words long - "It Doesn't".

Better the enemy you know, mate! LOL!
S:0)

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 08:00 AM

Clark scares the s**t out of me too WLD, and Cameron is a cynical climber.

Perhaps merely inept IS the best of the three options, after all he could improve on past performance..................Naaaaaaahhh!, I think I'll emigrate.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 03:12 AM

Davis is easily their most able candidate, but he's scary and very right wing. Should be right up the street of some these buggers on here yearning for the glory days of Thatcherism. he'll make the trains run on time, but there will only be Thomas the Tank Engine, the rest will declared unprofitable and employ too many nasty trade unionists.

Clark wasn't much good at anything he turned his hand to and he occupied many of the major offices. what makes you think he'll be any better now?

I remember one time some teachers asked him to to try one piece of particularly ludicrous tory policy out as a trial to see if it worked before blowing all the nations money on a parcel of right thatcheritewing trash.

he said, no you lot will just bugger it up and try and prove it doesn't work. Thats how he regards professionals. they're just not to be trusted.

similarly with health there was that stuff about doctors sugeries being sort of turned into small businesses.

yet supposedly he was the one who tipped Thatcher the black spot, cos Major was pretending to have his teeth fixed and knew when to keep his head down below the parapet.

None of them could beat Blair, Davis might beat Brown.

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 02:22 PM

Starkey? I saw that, and my reaction was to remember how, unpleasant as New Labour often is, it's at least some way removed from the kind of vicious poison that contaminated the country during the Thatcher years, replicated by Starkey. I remember you'd wake in the morning and it seemed there'd always be some Cabinet Minister spewing it out.

But politicians are the symptom rather than the cause. An unpleasant society throws up unpleasant politicians. Society today is unpleasant in a different way from the way it was a couple of decades ago, but take one look at the front-benches on either side, and you can tell it's a pretty ropy time we are living through.

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 12:02 PM

I watched Question Time last night and saw New Labour apparatchik Douglas Alexander savaged by historian David Starkey.

Starkey called New Labour "one huge corporate lie" and included sections of the Conservatives and people like Vince Cable of the Lib Dems as moving in the Blairite direction.

I dont care for Starkey, who appears arrogant in TV, but he certainly put Alexander with his "New Labour speak" right in his place.

He looked like a rabbit caught in the car headlights.

Slightly heartening to think these people have retained enough humanity to feel embarrassment.

The point is, none of the parties want to talk about the big issues.
The politicians world exists within the confines of a term in office; and they have no wish to get involved in sorting out anything that they won't receive "political credit" for ..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 09:39 AM

North sea oil was mortgaged up to the hilt by the time it was first pumped in 1975. Millions had been borrowed by the labour government on the strength of it.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 09:26 AM

Heck WLD my time at secondary school, and indeed my time at primary school was the worst of my life. Mostly because of the rampent bullying which the school was unable to check. I started school under Maggie and finished it under Bliar and it was HORRIBLE from start to finish.
Contary to popular belief School days are NOT the best of your life, wether you are smart or stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 09:01 AM

Don

you're cock on with your analysis of how kids turn up to infant school with no real effort having been made with them, to socialise and give them facility in language. I doubt though whether the Kylies and Keanus thus described sprang from the loins of people who read Dr Spock, or anything else much.

someone on Friends Reunited website described his time at the Grammar School I went to, as the most miserable five years of his life.

I'm sorry - I think it worked out that way for a lot of us. if you didn't have semi photographic memory for Latin verbs - it was like being a one legged man in an arse kicking competition. I don't think anybody is particularly happy with the way things have worked out post Newsom - but things needed to move on.

As for Ken. Tam he was the guy who Thatcher to bugger things up in several departments, but notably the education one.. Under that bluff jolly exterior is a man who woldn't get a disabled access built to his local tory hq. listed building you see. I know which bloody list I'd put it on.

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)
From: Tam the man
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 07:50 AM

I don't like the tories however I think that Ken Clark would be a great leader than the rest, because he's a human being a real person, instead of the la de dah's that there, if I was a tory I would vote for Ken Clark.

Tom Hamilton Frae Scotland

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 07:45 AM

WLD, The destruction of education also started long before Maggie. Think back to the sixties, and the Dr. Spock inspired changes which took discipline away from educators.

The trendy psychobabble watchword was "Never say no to children, it will blight their development. We even had mainstream schools allowing children to choose whether to work, or not.

Contrast that with the education system of the late forties and fifties when far larger percentages were both literate and numerate before entering secondary education.

Ever heard of the "Brain Drain"? Young British people being able to write their own salary cheques in countries all over the world.

The education system that produced those youngsters must have been doing something right, wouldn't you say?

Some parents also must take a measure of responsibility for declining standards. My kids went to primary school already able to read, because we spent hours teaching them from the age of three, using flash cards etc.

I am not a teacher, but I have worked in schools for many years, and it appals me to see children in reception class who have never heard a nursery rhyme, or a christmas carol, but can tell you in great detail what's happening in Power Rangers, or any of the other pap they absorb from the television.

Dad's tired after a day's work, and Mum is busy cooking dinner, and the box in the corner makes such a good babysitter. So, at the time of their lives when they absorb knowledge like a sponge, they are not getting the input that they should be, and of course it gets progressively harder to learn after those early years.

Sure, Maggie made it worse, and Tony has done nothing to revive it, but neither started the rot.

Paul, Oil prices were a part, but not all of the reason for that inflation. Your comments about trade unions are somewhat simplistic.

Firstly, Arthur and the miners were a very small part of the problem. Impossibly high wage increases were demanded by many trades during that period e.g. Dockers, Transport workers, postmen, shipbuilders etc. etc. It's a matter of public record, which you can easily verify.

Secondly, the economic boom you speak of was a strictly short term, and unsustainable phenomenon, based as it was on domestic consumerism, without the backing of necessary revenue from international trade. This country is not, and has never been, self sufficient.

So when our industries were forced to supply the cash for your economic boom, their market share abroad took a dive as they had to increase prices to survive.

Negotiated pay rises were few and far between at that time. Most were brought about by strike and disruption, which also damaged industry's ability to meet delivery dates.

Thirdly, and this is probably the most important factor, when one group of workers got an inordinately high increase, others immediately demanded parity, then the first lot would demand more to maintain the gap. This vicious circle went on for years, culminating in the three day week of the early seventies. British industry has never recovered, and probably never will.


Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 06:22 AM

Don: The 70s and early 80s were a time of worldwide high inflation, due to, wait for it, oil problems (remember Shake yer Mahney?) The peak years were 1975 (under Labour) and 1980 (Con). the decline thereafter was accompanied by mass unemployment on a scale not seen since the thirties.

No one in their right mind would call the TUC leaders of the 50s to 70s radical, they weren't all called Arthur. The rise in the standard of living that trades unionism brought about after WWII caused an economic boom- ordinary people had money to spend- the best time this country has had in retrospect.

Remember Thatcher's economic achievements were done with the aid of British oil- that windfall was squandered in breaking the back of the union movement. Manufacturing industry hasn't got noticeably better despite 25 years of union impotence- in fact, it's got a lot worse.

As for strikers not caring about others, if that was so why did Thatcher make secondary picketing and other union activities illegal?

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 05:12 AM

I did my last teaching - a short maternity cover in an ex mining town/village in North Notts the term the autumn term that Diana died.

The kids in 4th and 5th year - some of the didn't even know vowel sounds. there was hardly any remedial department to speak of. Instead I was required to try and teach a Jane Austen short story that started My dearest Fanny.......

the results of Keith Joseph and Sheila Lawlors right wing think tank ministrations to the education policy of our country. Just pure snobbishness in action. pretend a 1952 Grammar School is the answer to everything.

There was one kid who had particular attitude problems.
Oh him, they told me, his brother is our one success story. he drives a BMW, black executive briefcase....he deals drugs for all this area, anybody wants drugs in the city of sheffield they come here to do the deals, the police couldn't keep track of these villages when they were rough mining towns ....no chance now!

These used to be places that were rough and ready maybe but they were full of miners, steel workers, etc just trying to pay the mortgage...attain some level of respectability.

It weird, you can get people to understand about the ozone layer - but the idea that the fabric of society needs some attention just whizzes over tory heads - didn't used to! Macmillan and one nation tories, but its Maggie and the days when her 'screw you' policies were in full flight that these boys are lusting after.

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 04:44 AM

And in the Wilson/Callaghan years inflation exploded from 11% to 21.9%.

Apply your mind to the likely outcome of all our money being de-valued by one fifth each year, and tell me how many beggars there would have been by now if that had been allowed to continue?

The Tories were far from what we needed as a government, but even a diehard labour man like WLD, loses credibility when he blames them for all our problems, and refuses to see those things they did which were good.

What most people don't seem to see or acknowledge is the fact that the social ills of this country go back way beyond Thatcher, Callaghan, and Wilson.

Back in the fifties we had the beginnings of the problems with radical trade union leaders demanding ever more pay in return for less production, and getting it. In a few short years they had made British goods so uncompetitive that we lost most of our export capacity.

This led to British companies either cutting their workforce, or going out of business.

A great deal has been said on this forum about the evils of capitalism, but, like it or not, it is the investment of capital that provides jobs.

If you put the control of production in the hands of workers who cannot see the stupidity of demanding pay that will bankrupt the company, then the end results are obvious. Those who, by strike and disruption, obtained 30% and 40% pay rises in the sixties didn't give a damn about the other workers made redundant as a result.

So Maggie wasn't the first to decide that every man for himself was the way to go.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 09:18 PM

Prior to 79.

we had
no beggars on the street to speak - apart from a few in the capital
no really really serious hard drugs problem

mass unemployment and the social disruption that it caused, was responsible for this

This was due almost entirely to the basic 'couldn't give a shit about the losers in society, which doesn't really exist' attitude of the tory party.

You have to face facts. the people at the helm of the tory party now were all very attracted as young people to this callous attitude. And bottom line, they would like to see the policies which visited these terrible disasters on us, pursued again. Higher profits, more unemployment, tax breaks for the already quite comfortable, less public investment in infrastructure.

If you vote for this ....you are not in my book a patriot. You do not love your country and its people.

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 04:33 PM

I must be getting old and bourgoise, because I agree with Don and Bhunnabhain and even McGrath. I dont agree with WLD as he's much to radical for me!!.

What I think we need politically, is to scrap all the labels and elect people who are going to work in the interests of all the people of Britain.
Blairs govt were strong on rhetoric but have achieved very little.

There are many serious problems domestically which they are either afraid of, or simply dont know what to do about.

First and foremost is the scandal of our old people living in poverty, on a pension that would hardly keep my two dogs for a week.
Add to that a 120% increase in Council tax for pensioners whose income has only risen by 20% during the life of this govt.

This govt has failed to meet the puny environmental targets laid down, and doubtless a Conservative or Lib Dem administration would fare no better. The environment and how we are to insure its continued wellbeing is the single most serious problem we face and nobody in the political mainstream wants to address it, (does this tell you something about the short term nature of our political and economic systems?)

THere are loads of other points ,like the lack of racial integration,
our aggressive foriegn policy, the anomally of our wasteful lifestyle set against dwindling energy reserves, is it to be ineffective and costly wind power, or nuclear energy which has the potential of poisoning the planet for our great- grandchildren.

The ever increasing gap between rich and poor could ultimately see a civil conflict in this and many other countries ...and dont think "it couldn,t happen here "..who would have thought five years ago that we would see suicide bombers on the London tube!!

Dont think I'm being alarmist for the sake of it, I'm just trying to illustrate the problems that urgently require to be addressed ,or at least to make a start at addressing.

Wouldn't it be great if we could cast our votes for men and women who really cared about our world and all the things it contains, rather than the vermin wo masquerade as democrats, but in reality care only for their "legacy",power and electoral success.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 01:27 PM

"... If someone on our side would stop talking and act.

Yup, it's all about acting. There's a lovely ambiguity about that word isn't there?

That Cameron laddie - doesn't he look and talk just like Piers Fletcher-Dervish, Alan B'stard's wet colleague in the TV series the New Statesman? Or one of Bertie Wooster's mates from the Drones Club.

Boris Johnson is the one they really should give the job to. He's a Drones Club natural too, but funny with it. A buffoon rather than a twit, who could make either Blair or Brown look like pompous asses.

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 12:08 PM

An electable opposition is the single best way of making the Goverment actually do something positive. Regardless of how much you hate the Tories, you should be hoping they become credible again. Either that, or the Liberal Democrats become a cohesive national party.*

It is in everyone's intrest that this happens. Soon.





*Cohesive is the key word. In my experince, the liberal democrats fight very good local campaigns, which mean their stand on most issues varies hugely. They are far more guilty than the others of this. They cannot be a true goverment in waiting until they actually have some kind of idea where they want to go on issue X, which is too often lacking.

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader. (UK)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 11:03 AM

ah yes! if only they confined themselves to such innocent pastimes!

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader.
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 10:40 AM

Their is a word that comes to mind about them all "tossers" just about covers it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader.
From: Crystal
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 10:37 AM

(Quote) P.S. I forgot one of Tony's major achievements. He embroiled us in an unjust war of aggression against a sovereign state (albeit one with an unsavoury government), a war which cannot be won, and to justify it he lied to parliament, and to the people of this country. (end)

Yep, then he tried to blame the BBC!

I'm seriously thinking of declareing my house as an indipendant soverign state.

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 04:36 AM

Right on Ake. Another posing personality cult-er is exactly what this country doesn't need.

I remember the comment of a labour voting friend during Maggie's reign, before she went completely off the rails.

He said "Two thirds of what she's done is wrong, but I've got to admit she's the first in a long time who has DONE anything. If someone on our side would stop talking and act, we might get rid of her".

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

Young Mr. Cameron is another from the slaughter 'em with rhetoric school, who will talk his way into power, and then settle into a mire of wet, ineffective policies.

Either of the other candidates would try to get some action going, but Davies scares me,because he is so far right I can barely see him.

Who does that leave.

Come on Kennedy, give me some policies I can vote FOR. I am very, very tired of voting AGAINST things.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader.
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 08:43 PM

Hi Don, thanks for the thoughts.
Looks like the Tories are heading for a Renaissance under Cameron, another victory for presentation over substance.

I didn't think the core tory voters would have fallen for that stuff, but I suppose like Labour ,its being elected that counts.
The trouble is, principles are usually sacrificed in the process.
It all becomes a charade of posturing and self promaotion.

I think that unfortunatly, Cameron is the leader who can make the Tories electable again....by becomming Blair!
The future looks bleak for UK politics.

I agree with what you say about the need for better government, but I also think that the problems facing us today are too important to be entrusted to a group of people (from left or right), who are simply short term thinkers, interested mainly in saving their political skins.

Cameron will definitly become Conservative leader one day and probably it will be this time around.
If my instincts are correct he has it in him to become even more hated than Mr Blair....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader.
From: Seiri Omaar
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 09:25 AM

I guess we start looking for a bridge then, don't we?

Seiri.

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader.
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 09:01 AM

Question, is Flamenco Ted an actual tory banker or a troll ?

eric

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 07:46 AM

If the Lib Dems would ditch their pro European stance they would capture all the old tory voters who are looking for a party to support.

BTW it was a labour [with help from the Liberals] prime minister who in the 'Winter of discontent' came back from a conference in Guadeloup and said "Crisis; what crisis?", the same man who devalued the pound in 1967 when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer. Following that he was home secretary, at which time he put British troops into Northern Ireland to protect the "minority population".

I vote neither tory or labour, but I get fed up with the endless unbalanced criticism of the tories as if they were the only party who cocked it up when in charge.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 07:01 AM

After sleeping on it, a further thought has emerged.

We do have a third choice in the UK, the Liberal Democrats.

They could make themselves highly electable, simply by doing some intensive homework, and coming up with a complete set of clearly stated policies.

Over the years, they have failed to do this, seizing on a couple of major issues in the run up to elections, but being vague about their plans for almost everything else.

I believe that, if they produced a comprehensive policy statement covering the whole range of issues NOW, they could easily double their parliamentary presence by the next election, and might well be contenders for government at the one after that.

I base this belief on the fact that I hear less complaints from people in areas where they have a liberal MP, which suggests that they've got the practice about right, but fall short on the theory.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 09:48 PM

P.S. I forgot one of Tony's major achievements. He embroiled us in an unjust war of aggression against a sovereign state (albeit one with an unsavoury government), a war which cannot be won, and to justify it he lied to parliament, and to the people of this country.

If that is the standard of integrity we can expect in the future, I feel that it would be immoral for me to vote for him.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 09:41 PM

In answer to Ake's request, a few ideas.

I have already posted most of this on another thread several months ago.

I heartily agree with the perceptive folk who have pointed out that all politicians are terminally dishonest, but I would modify that to "party politicians". I said long ago that what is needed is less politics, and more government.

I hasten to add that I am not suggesting more interference in our lives by government, merely more time devoted to running the country, as opposed to forwarding party interests.

To achieve this would, IMO, necessitate a radical change in the system, involving the banning of political parties as such. MPs should be representing the expressed wishes of the constituents who elect them, and it should be possible for said constituents to impose a no confidence sanction on those who do not.

O.K., that's my helping of pie in the sky, and will never happen, but unless some changes are made, arguments about which party to vote for will remain pointless.

I have probably seen more governments than most here, going right back to Clement Attlee, and from a narrow and selfish POV, I have had more of my income left for my personal use when the Tories have been in power. At the end of the day, we all vote for those who we feel benefit us the most.

I will honestly admit that I haven't a clue who to vote for next time, but my gut feeling is that I would prefer to vote for real tories rather than Toady Blair's ersatz variety.

Every government that I can remember has had to perform a balancing act between opposing forces.

Callaghan left us one million unemployed, and inflation at 21.5% in 1979.

Maggie left us many more unemployed (at least treble), but inflation of 2.5%.

Tony inherited that inflation rate, but has done little but maintain the status quo. What he has managed to do is to chase many teachers and nurses out of those professions, to signally fail to improve transport, to allow pensioners to fall even further toward the poverty line, and quite possibly to destroy live music in this country. Even Hitler never managed the last, try as he might.

Perhaps, if we all did the same thing, and voted for the best local independent candidate in the next election, it would serve as a wake up call for those who view us as mindless voting units.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 09:13 PM

Or don't the 3 day week and winter of discontent register as significant?

Productivity actually went up during the three day week.   They should have kept it.

As for "the winter of discontent", that phrase has hypnotised a generation. Yes I well remember "the winter of discontent" - for a few weeks quite a few public services were reduced or interrupted. The real winter of discontent set in when Thatcher strutted into power, and it lasted for long years. The public services that had been so rudekly uinterrupted by those strikes were cut to ribbons in ways that have meant some of them may never recover, especially with a Thatcherite "New Labour" administration in command.
........................................

Philip Pullman (of the Dark Materials trilogy) wrote a piece in the Guardian recently which outlined the best strategy the Tories could adopt for getting elected, which would be to move to the centre ground vacated by the Labour Party in to lurch to the right:

"So in a friendly spirit of helpfulness, I thought I'd point out some policies that resonate with old-fashioned ideas of the sort that a truly conservative party might well feel at home with. By good luck, these policies are without a current champion, and any party taking them up would find a natural body of support ready and waiting."

All right,he was writing tongue in cheek - but it would make sense.    On a whole range of issues New Labour is well to the right of Harold Macmillan (who wasn't exactly a lefty). At some point Tory hunger for power will make them bite the bullet and come up with something very like that.

As Philip Pullmann puts it: "As I said, no one else is putting forward these policies, and plenty of people would like to see them in action. Put them in a manifesto, and the Tories will sweep to power on a tide of old Labour votes. Carry those policies out, and the New Conservative party will be in government for a generation.

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 07:53 PM

no there are some thoroughly decent people who are tories. but the party is all those things. else why isn't Michael portillo leading them.

any system which has brought forward the last three(four) leaders has got to be corrupt. If you are a tory - you know there were better and more electable options every time. You know a lot of those policies were plain wrong - wrong for the country - and only benefiting small numbers of very rich people to the detriment of everybody else.

the race card is one they have played too many times for it to be mere coincidence.

the election choice is abit of dutch auction, who can be the biggest bastard to the perceived baddies - and claim to be charging less tax.

the tory effort doesn't really persuade.......

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 01:08 PM

Wha wadna be in love
Wi' bonnie Maggie Thatcher?
A piper met her guan to Fife,
And spier'd what was't they ca'd her;
Right scornfully she answer'd him,
Began you hall shaker,
Jog on your gait,
ye bladderskate,
My name is Maggie Thatcher.

Maggie, quo he, and by my bags
I'm fidgin' fain to see thee;
Sit down by me, my bonnie bird,
In troth I winna steer thee:
My name is Rob the Ranter;
The lasses loup as they were daft,
When I blaw up my chanter.

Piper, quo Meg, hae ye your bags,
Or is your drone in order?
If ye be Rob, I've heard of you,
Live ye upon the border?
The lasses a', baith far and near
Hae hear o' Rob the Ranter;
I'll shake my foot wi' right goo-will,
Fig ye'll blaw up your chanter.

Then to his bags he flew wi' speed,
About the drone he twisted;
Meg up and walloped o'er the gree,
For brawly could she frisk it.
Weel done, quo' he: play up, quo' she:
Weel bobb'd, quo Rob the Ranter;
It's worth my while to play, indeed,
When I hae sic a dancer.

Weel hae you play'd your part, quo' Meg,
Your cheeks are like the crimson;
There's nane in Scotland plays sae weel,
Sin' we lost Habby Simson.
I've live'd in Fife, baith maid and wife,
These ten years and a quarter;
Gin ye should come to Ainster fair,
Spier ye for Maggie Thatcher.

Poetic licence they call it!!   he he
Giok ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader.
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 12:32 PM

TED!! LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader.
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 10:21 AM

The sainted one will be back!

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader.
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 09:20 AM

What, Mark's second wife? The old bat will have gone back to the Planet Zog by then. The only way you'll get rich is to place a large bet on a Thatcher government getting elected in 2008. The odds should be huge.

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader.
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 08:58 AM

In 2013 I will be 56years old, and jolly rich thanks to the preceeding 5years of conservative government led by Mrs Thatcher.

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader.
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 08:05 AM

I don't care who they make leader. They don't stand a snowball in hell's chance of getting in next time, and by 2013 I'll be 66, and subsisting on a pittance of a pension, ignored by both labour and conservative alike, and probably in prison because I can't afford to pay the council tax.

They're POLITICIANS guys - you can't trust any of them.
S:0)

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 07:10 AM

I stand corrected, Giok

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 06:33 AM

Different Clark Richard, the one you are thinking of is no longer with us.
wld I must take issue with your sweeping statement about the tories being racist homophobic and corrupt, while some MAY be, not all of them are, and I don't imagine for a moment that the neo socialist party in government at present is completely free of those taints either.

Remember that many people vote Labour because of their history and background and not with any intellectual analysis, so you must get a few 'wrong uns' in that lot. It is only the later idealistic socialists like Tony Benn and his ilk that are in it for the aims, most of the rest do it out of habit and without thought.
The preponderence of Scots in government is because Scotland is historically a socialist country, there having been no 'middle class' up until quite recently, historically speaking. While the number of trade unionists is directly related to the Keir Hardy effect, and the fact that their movemnt gave rise to the Labour Party, and they haven't yet realised that the present day neo socialists don't give a fig for the working class.
Both will diminish with the increase of the middle class in Scotland and the realisation of the unions that New Labour has nothing to offer them.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: New Conservative leader.
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 06:25 AM

"Or don't the 3 day week and winter of discontent register as significant?"

That was when people had rights. And decent jobs, too, in many cases. Yes, it WAS better, though most have forgotten why, or don't care about the creeping authoritarianism that has overtaken the country.

A million unemployed, she said, Labour isn't working. It hasn't been less than that since, especially if you estimate it the way it was measured then. Despite all the minimum wage Mcjobs available.