BS: Popular views on McCain

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:49 PM

All I can say is, he must be really, really bored!

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:37 PM

Not much, but it was all about Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:35 PM

"There is a lot more information in McCain's article about Obama's plan than there is about his own."


                      He must not have said nothin' at all!

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 06:34 PM

Bruce:

You are at liberty to start a "Defending the President" thread and place in it all the ratiocination you can find defending Bush and his actions. You should do it soon while there is still some to find. I am sure Teribus will be delighted to share the biurden with you.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:07 PM

The NY Times defends their position

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 03:08 PM

Bruce,

Even it it is true "I am as bad as you." is just not gonna do!

I would suggest that the next time that Amos, or anyone else doesn't do this

"making sure all the relevant factas are on the board here, ya know."

maybe you should simply provide the relevant factas?

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:59 PM

"Just making sure all the relevant factas are on the board here, ya know.

"

Why? You have never shown such concern when you posted anti-Bush articles.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:56 PM

BB:

The New York Times made their reasons explicit and they were well-justified editorial reasons--McCain's "op-ed" submission was redundant where Obama's was original.

Just making sure all the relevant factas are on the board here, ya know.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:49 PM

Having read McCain's submission, I think that Shipley made a reasonable request. I McCain is going to talk about "Winning" Iraq in the New York Times. He ought to say what he thinks "winning" is.

There is a lot more information in McCain's article about Obama's plan than there is about his own. If McCain were to write an Op Ed piece mirroring Obama's, I would be interested in reading it.

The article Bruce quoted.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:29 PM

"The New York Times has rejected an editorial written by John McCain defending his Iraq war policy in response to a piece by Barack Obama published in the paper last week."


Always good to know that fair play and equal time won't get in the way of the NYTimes....

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 03:16 PM

Your cut and paste is translating quotation marks and other suck symbols into vowels with spanish accents.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 01:59 PM

"THE best thing to happen to John McCain was for the three network anchors to leave him in the dust this week while they chase Barack Obama on his global Lollapalooza tour. Were voters forced to actually focus on Mr. McCainÕs response to our spiraling economic crisis at home, the prospect of his ascension to the Oval Office could set off a panic that would make the IndyMac Bank bust in Pasadena look as merry as the Rose Bowl.

ÒIn a time of war,Ó Mr. McCain said last week, Òthe commander in chief doesnÕt get a learning curve.Ó Fair enough, but he imparted this wisdom in a speech that was almost a year behind Mr. Obama in recognizing Afghanistan as the central front in the war against Al Qaeda. Given that it took the deadliest Taliban suicide bombing in Kabul since 9/11 to get Mr. McCainÕs attention, you have to wonder if even General CusterÕs learning curve was faster than his. ..."

More here.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 01:33 AM

IT was set to use the US character set. I have just modified the setting to "US Extended". Perhaps that will cure the buggers.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: GUEST,jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 01:04 AM

>>I am using OS X and Safari,<<

That's interesting Amos, so am I.

Is yours, by any chance, configured to show Spanish characters?

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 11:00 PM

I don't see 'em, even when I go back to an old post. But I can try using Word as an editor and we can see if that helps.

I am using OS X and Safari, a very comfortable combination.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: GUEST,Jts
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 06:44 PM

Amos,

Are you using a PC? If you paste into "Notepad" then copy paste the result to here, you might be able to eliminate all those crazy extRa characteRs.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 06:26 PM

"I provided the sources you asked for" . Yet more drivel.

1) Wording of survey question was not included.

2) " Survey" was several years old---as I pointed out at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 03:34 PM

"...What excuse is there, in 2008, for a politician who pretends to be a great friend to women while continuing to block any possible legislative changes that might actually improve womenÕs lives?

The wink-wink excuse for McCainÕs hypocrisy, for the contradictions between his good-guy persona and not-so-good-guy politics, is that he has to hold his nose and keep his bread buttered with the religious right. Another explanation is that, like our current good-guy president, McCain is a man blinded by ideology Ð in this case, by that rough-rider rugged individualism thing that he so admires and that is so inimical to real, functional gender equality.

Or it could be something else, something much more basic at work, something that, I think, showed very clearly in McCainÕs expression last week, as he fought, more or less successfully, to suppress a joke and the naughtiest bit of a giggle after reporters demanded a response to remarks by Fiorina in which the clearly unscripted surrogate had complained about the unfairness of health insurers reimbursing Viagra but not birth control.

You could see it in his mouth, in his eyes as, for a full five seconds, McCain worked to remake a face that said, Give me a break, will you? DonÕt you know that I just donÕt care?.

Teddy Roosevelt, remembered today as a big proponent of womenÕs suffrage, admitted in a letter once that, when it came to the womanÕs vote, he too didnÕt really care. ÒPersonally I believe in womanÕs suffrage, but I am not an enthusiastic advocate of it, because I do not regard it as a very important matter,Ó he wrote from the White House in 1908. A big part of the reason: women themselves, he said, appeared to be mostly ÒlukewarmÓ on the issue. ÒI am very certain,Ó he said, Òthat when women as a whole take any special interest in the matter they will have suffrage if they desire it.Ó

McCain, as he casts for votes among HillaryÕs last angry hold-outs, seems to be banking upon finding women who are similarly lukewarm to their interests.

LetÕs hope that heÕs wrong."


(NYT)

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 04:57 PM

In a time of serious economic depression, the New York Times writes, John McCain's economic proposals make no sense politically or aritnmentically.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 10:24 PM

Ron - We went all through this on another thread and I provided the sources you asked for. I don't have time to do it again, but the facts are all over the place. All you need to do is google them.

                   If you are going to try to treat Hispanic voters as a monolithic group I think you are insulting them personally, while at the same time you're insulting the intelligence of the very people you are trying to communicate with.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 09:42 PM

"my mind is not tortured..."   Well, I don't know, the poster sure does a good imitation of a tortured mind.   If it walks like a duck...


And as for the mysterious poll where 25% of Hispanics are against illegal immigration--that bears an amazing resemblance to total drivel.

I wonder why it happens to coincide exactly with what the poster wants to believe.

And a few more questions about it--before it can rise above the level of the poster's wishful thinking.

1)   Date

2) Exact wording of the question

3) Exact source of the supposed poll

And I wonder why it seems unlikely that any of this will be revealed.


Added to which, in fact 100% of Hispanics are against illegal immigration, I'm sure---they would all rather that legal immigration be broadened.

So the poster's assertion, as usual, is meaningless.

Situation normal.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 09:32 PM

And now McCain has promised to, if elected, balance the budget and eliminate the deficit. With no new taxes. And no end to the Iraq war.
He obviously should be elected--he knows the Tooth Fairy!

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 09:37 PM

"Some of them, anyway. I doubt the categorical assertion would hold up."

                   The last poll I say had 25% of them strongly against illegal immigration, and another sizable portion on the fence.
                   The Hispanic vote is not a monolithic block at all, though most media outlets seem to want to treat it that way.
   

    "If you want an idea why immigartion reform didn't go thru Congress all you have to do is look at a very obstinate Republican congressmen who have turned filibuster into a daily routine..."


               And, of course, they did that because a huge majority of the American people could see that the reform bill as written was a really bad idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 03:51 PM

The unfortunate part of this discussion is our ugly history of exploitation of not only people who have built our infastructure but those overseas working in sweatshops...

In 1619 we brought over slaves and for the next 250 years depended in them to build much of our infastructure... After the Emancipation Proclamation we had quasi-slavery for the next 90 years under Jim Crow and 14-B and so here we are a realitivelu wealthy nation built disporportionately on the backs of slaves and freed but highly discriminated blacks...

The Latino situation is not all that different than the Jim Crow erra where we have used Latinos much the way we used blacks during the Jim Crow days and our economy has benefited from their hard work... These people have suffered for our country... They pay taxes... Millions pay into our Social Security system... Yet when things get tough they become the latest scapegoat???

If you want an idea why immigartion reform didn't go thru Congress all you have to do is look at a very obstinate Republican congressmen who have turned filibuster into a daily routine... You can also look at Bush who didn't put up much of a fight to get it thru and lastly, you can probably put most of the blame on the corporate media for hiring demagogues like Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reily and Ann Coulter who are not journalists but loud mouthed corprate shills...

End of mini-rant...

B~





B~

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:52 PM

he ones who have been here for a generation or longer express concern about the immigration problem just like many other Americans.

Some of them, anyway. I doubt the categorical assertion would hold up.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:16 PM

Yes, heric, I agree with all you say here. The fence was far from a reasonable solution. But as I said earlier, it was the only solution the government offered the people.

                  I don't think it was just Congress, though, the president simply refused to do anything, or even to talk about it until late in his final term. The ICE raids that are going on now could have been conducted years earlier. I suspect Rove had concluded that raids would alienate the Hispanic vote, but if one takes the time to talk to Hispanics, the ones who have been here for a generation or longer express concern about the immigration problem just like many other Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:15 PM

MOst of them, in my experience, do not come to slash and burn, and I see no merit in using inflamed rhetorical devices. They come to garden, clean, tote, drive your trucks and build your garden walls, or anything else they can do for the price of survival. And they often do it in profoundly better ways than their competitors.

I suggest that your problem --if you have one other than mere rhetorical heat-- may be not with "immigrants" or "Mexicans" but with individuals you have run into.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: heric
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 11:58 AM

I agree with rig in that having no immigration laws properly in place and fairly enforced is no way to run a country. The question of who is taking advantage of the other is not so clear to me. We benefit in many ways from these ambitious people who desperately need money and work, but we also fail to account for public service expenditures. I just think the fence is an expensive, inefficient and inconvenient way to address the issues. A failure of Congressional leadership has allowed security contractors and others to tap into the public purse, when creativity and compromise could have served everyone in a better fashion. I still don't know how they intend to properly address the river access needs all of the riverfront ranchers, other nearby landowners, and animals, for these thousands of miles.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 09:18 AM

Possibly not, but there's no way to avoid the fact that runaway population growth harms the environment more than anything that's happening right now. And having compassion for Latin American people is no reason to give them a license to slash and burn North America.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:50 AM

Jest can't break out of the rhetorical circuit, I guess.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:55 PM

"The people whom you resent so badly do not disappear at the border magically; they produce as much CO2 and methane before they cross as after; maybe more because they drive older trucks with no emissions regulation."


                     Frankly, I don't think so. If they refuse to deal with reality and won't adopt any kind of family planning, when they find themselves in a standing room only situation, there won't be any place to drive trucks. This is strictly a circumstance of their own choosing.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:52 PM

"Rig, please take note: This is not a game. This is one of the most crucial elections the United States has had, equalled perhaps by only the last one."


                     Maybe, but it doesn't make any difference who wins. One candidate is as bad as the other. All of the good candidates were eliminated in the primaries.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:39 PM

"Billions of dollars since the 1980s in fencing, razor wire, electronic sensors and vehicle barriers. A major deployment of 6,000 National Guard troops in 2006, to bolster the Border Patrol. The trashing of the Endangered Species Act, the Clean Water Act and a host of environmental and land-management laws. (When Congress ordered the homeland security secretary, Michael Chertoff, to build 670 miles of border fence by the end of this year, it decreed that no law or judge, no wild creature or endangered homeowner, should stop him. Last month, the Supreme Court declined to intervene in one of the many legal disputes the fence has provoked.)

The National Guard is leaving the border at the end of the month. And even though the border states want them to stay, the Bush administration is declaring victory. ThatÕs how good things are down there.

Too bad, though, that the results that restrictionists predict from victory Ñ an end to illegal immigration, the expulsion of illegal immigrants, the restoration of jobs to American workers, the protection of American culture and language from a Hispanic invasion Ñ are not coming anytime soon. ThatÕs because fixing immigration has very little to do with any of the hustle and bustle along the 2,000-mile line from San Diego to Brownsville, Tex.

The Center for Comparative Immigration Studies at the University of California, San Diego, recently did the radical thing of talking to border-crossers about why and how they come. In a survey of undocumented immigrants from four Mexican states, it found that fewer than half are caught by the Border Patrol. Those who fail the first time try again and again, and their success rates for entering the country hover consistently above 90 percent. Sheriffs, police officers and elected officials in border communities Ñ some of whom have ridiculed the fence and sued to block it Ñ would readily confirm that.

The study offered another compelling example of enforcement gone awry: reports that illegal immigrants who are stymied by a tighter border are staying put, setting down roots and bringing their families over.

This is not to argue for giving up on enforcement. The real victory will come when a repaired, well-patrolled border coincides with a repaired, well-run immigration system that requires undocumented workers to come forward and be legalized, has expanded avenues for legal workers, including would-be citizens, and cracks down on illegal hiring as staunchly as it protects workersÕ rights.

There is a long list of things to do to make the immigration system correspond to American values and economic realities, and the country is doing just about none of them. WeÕre paying a huge price to pay for an ineffective fence and some symbolic victories on the border...."

NYT

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 10:59 PM

"So I've decided to root for the underdog until the election." Riginslinger

Rig, please take note: This is not a game. This is one of the most crucial elections the United States has had, equalled perhaps by only the last one. The latest government has done untold damage - that we know of, and I have the sickening feeling that we don't yet know the half of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 10:38 PM

Rig:

The people whom you resent so badly do not disappear at the border magically; they produce as much CO2 and methane before they cross as after; maybe more because they drive older trucks with no emissions regulation.

I see your concern about the strain on resources. But the quality of mercy should not be strained,.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 09:56 PM

Well, heric, I suppose you're right. When the Pope encouraged the Latin American people to go north and procreate, a bunch of them got caught up in the "Sound and the Fury." But cooler heads in North America have figured out that this migration is a really bad thing for the environment.

                And if you think the fence is ineffective, I would agree with you, but that's the only thing the American government has offered its people.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 09:38 PM

>>Maybe, just maybe, we are solving the wrong problem because a lot of people resorted to sound and fury instead of analysis?<<

Nail on the head. I can't believe the fence isn't dead yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 09:26 PM

Amos - You should know that my mind isn't tortured. More people place more demand on resources. More exhaust fumes; more garbage to the landfill; more farm land under asphalt; more cars on the highway; more non-paying patients in the emergency rooms, and the really big one, more children in the school rooms.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 05:29 PM

Rig:

That's a pretty sloppy statement on the face of it. How do you connect the unlikely proposition of closing the border and caring about the environment in your tortured mind?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 05:25 PM

"McCain---said he will do nothing towards a path to citizenship until the border is secured."

                     For those of us who care about the planet and the environment, that's the best reason in the world to support McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 03:14 PM

Securing the border is one of those phrases that rolls deliciously off the tongue, strikes a glow in the heart of anyone who fears the invasion of the Hispano-Catholic hordes to the south, and makes a great bumper-sticker, short and powerful. Three small words. But what do people really mean by it? Control every arroyo and byway along the Rio Grande, across the Sonora, all the way to the Pacific?

IF you want to succeed, my frightened friends, you have to get real about the problem and why it has been chosen as the problem to solve.

In this case the problem is not the sacred border, but the humans on either side of it.

This notion that Mexicanos are anti-matter to the decency of America is absolute bull; they are more decent and hard-working on the whole than many of those born north of the imaginary line.

It's a silly poturing proposition. We've already thrown millions, and the border is till 90% porous.

Maybe, just maybe, we are solving the wrong problem because a lot of people resorted to sound and fury instead of analysis?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 02:54 PM

As usual, the CEO of Smears R Us does not read carefully.

Obama has said the border needs to be secured--but he will not wait til that happens to start a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants.

McCain--- in a desperate and possibly futile attempt to curry favor with the Neanderthal Tancredo supporters--possibly said CEO?-- has said he will do nothing towards a path to citizenship until the border is secured.   So he has a handy dodge to never do anything for illegals--since the border will not be "secured" for, say, a few eons.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:24 AM

Bobert - Is your concern related to McCain's age or Obama's racist enemies?

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 10:59 AM

If one's greatest quality for being president is that you probabaly won't last too long at the job then look out, America...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 09:25 AM

Ron - Instead of addressing the issues, you continue to attack the poster. If you stand back and look at the effect of that, you will probably find that it doesn't really get you where you seemingly want to go.

                   But McCain.s position on securing the border first is the best issue in the world I can think of to support him. On the other hand, Obama has taken the same position. I don't believe him, however, and apparently you don't either.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:52 AM

But it's at least progress that the whining about Hillary's missed chance has stopped.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:50 AM

For anybody who thinks, the choice is obvious: as a Democrat you are either flexible on issues or you are pilloried by Republicans as a Stevenson , Dukakis, or McGovern--that is, a doctrinaire Leftist, .

There is still a vast difference between Obama---- and McCain, who:

1) still talks of the chimera (look it up) called "victory" in Iraq;   

2)   now says illegal immigrants will have to wait for the border to be secured--which will not happen this millennium --before any talk of a path to citizenship;

3)   wants only "market solutions" to the health care crisis,

etc.

Obviously the CEO of Smears R Us is not expected to think.   His postings will be treated with all the respect they deserve.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 08:33 AM

Probably the two greatest assets McCain has is (1) he's old enough that he probably won't be running for a second term all through the first one, and (2) the public believes we will have a large majority of Democrats in both the house and the Senate. Most people wouldn't want to turn an un-tried and un-proven Obama loose with that. Especially since he's started flip-flopping on all of the important issues--even the war in Iraq now.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 01:15 AM

Oh, and Rig...your remarks about obama, grounded in bile and marinated in whatever the bitterness within you really is, are without merit. He has done much, and is no empty suit, a meaningless label in any case. Why not get real here


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:27 AM

She lost above all by--needlessly--- alienating the antiwar wing of the Democratic party, a wing which has had much clout in primaries for quite a while now. And especially after losing to Kerry in 2004, the antiwar wing was not about to accept anybody it did not have to have this time. And to have a smart, articulate, charismatic, post-racial, post -partisan candidate who on top of all that was black--there was no comparison with Kerry, who never did elicit the kind of enthusiasm Obama has had from the start.

But in 2007, the nomination was hers to lose. And in 2008 she lost it. Had she been willing in either 2007 or 2008 to admit she was wrong in 2002 to authorize Bush to use force, she would have split the antiwar movement--and probably won the nomination.

But her campaign is now over--except for trying to assure herself another chance-- eventually-- by this time breaking her neck to help Obama. She knows that if she does not do this, there is no chance the Democratic movers and shakers would ever support another presidential run for her.