BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Jun 12 - 01:07 PM

That's the wrong president. Check out what Madison and Jefferson had to say about corporations.

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 05:12 PM

When Lizzie Cornish brought up the Mankato,Minnesota affair, it reminded me that the State Bird of Minnesota is the Loon. Not sure why it came to mind, though...

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 11:07 AM

More importantly, what has it got to do with ANYTHING? A war measure, of limiter scope, involving the insurance of troops from the North being able to reach Washington, DC.

Or is this just the usual Neo-Confederate bullshit now stalking the land?

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: EBarnacle
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 10:49 AM

Saw, What has your post to do with the subject line?

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Sawzaw
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 08:27 AM

BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA:

    A PROCLAMATION

    Whereas, it has become necessary to call into service not only volunteers but also portions of the militia of the States by draft in order to suppress the insurrection existing in the United States, and disloyal persons are not adequately restrained by the ordinary processes of law from hindering this measure and from giving aid and comfort in various ways to the insurrection;

    Now, therefore, be it ordered, first, that during the existing insurrection and as a necessary measure for suppressing the same, all Rebels and Insurgents, their aiders and abettors within the United States, and all persons discouraging volunteer enlistments, resisting militia drafts, or guilty of any disloyal practice, affording aid and comfort to Rebels against the authority of United States, shall be subject to martial law and liable to trial and punishment by Courts Martial or Military Commission:

    Second. That the Writ of Habeas Corpus is suspended in respect to all persons arrested, or who are now, or hereafter during the rebellion shall be, imprisoned in any fort, camp, arsenal, military prison, or other place of confinement by any military authority of by the sentence of any Court Martial or Military Commission.

    In witness whereof, I have hereunto set my hand, and caused the seal of the United States to be affixed.

    Done at the City of Washington this twenty fourth day of September, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-two, and of the Independence of the United States the 87th.

    ABRAHAM LINCOLN

    By the President:

    WILLIAM H. SEWARD, Secretary of State.

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jun 12 - 09:36 PM

Agreed, John... Doesn't mean that Roberts and Alito didn't rule on exactly what we are seeing...

That is the real story...

Plus, they didn't have to go beyond the issues in the case...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Sawzaw
Date: 14 Jun 12 - 09:35 PM

A famous mudcatters said:

"Like they say, stats are for loosers....

You ain't gonna hear a bunch of stats outta me 'cause I don't need 'um"

And then:

"1/2 of Americans live at 125% of the poverty threshold OR LESS...

NBC reported on the evening news a few months ago that 64% of American adults could not raise $1000 if they had to"

It is very confusing.

Next it will be a reflexive Betty Ford, Betty Ford.

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Jun 12 - 08:58 PM

Yeah Bobert, but your points aren't dependent on "corporations being persons." They have been that for over 150 years. They hinge only on the Court decision that they can make donations, and the Court being prevented from saying "... as long as they follow the same rules as other persons" because the lawyers didn't ask a proper question about that.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jun 12 - 06:01 PM

Well, John...

Bottom line it sets 800 years of accepted legal principle on its head... The magna carta put forth the principle that a man has a right to face his accuser... With Citizens United, that no longer applies as money is being used to buy negative ads from completely unknown sources... In other words, anyone with money can accuse anyone running for office (or not) of anything without having to show his/their face/s...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Jun 12 - 05:54 PM

Lizzie, I categorically reject your efforts to assign collective guilt.

In fact, ascribing collective guilt to a whole group of people on the basis of what some members of that group have done is, in itself, immoral and unethical.

A blatant but accurate example of this was one of the propaganda points the Nazi regime made when some braver Germans raised objections to what the regime was doing to their Jewish neighbors. One of the arguments the Nazis used to justify the Holocaust was that "the Jews killed Jesus!"

Yeah, RIGHT! I'm sure that little Anne Frank was right there at the crucifixion, handing nails up to the other Jew who was wielding the hammer! So—off to the gas chamber with both of them!!

I might mention that, although (according to the Bible) the Sanhedrin found Jesus' preaching to be a general pain in the tuchus, it was the Romans who executed Jesus.

So shouldn't we blame all Italian people?

And there are people who assign collective guilt to Germans—some seventy years later, most of whom weren't even born yet!—for all the bad stuff the Third Reich did in World War II.

That's Bigotry with a capital "B."

But how to you assign collective guilt to someone like Rolf Holzmann?

I met Rolf at the University of Washington in the early 1950s. He was a German exchange student. He told me that he had been forced to join the Hitler Youth when he was a teenager, and when the war started going against the Axis, Rolf and some of his young friends were conscripted into the military. Germany was running short of fighter pilots and Rolf had the aptitude, so he was dragooned into being trained to fly Messerschmitt 109s.

He hated Hitler and his goons and the Nazis in general, but he flew missions for the simple reason that he would be taken out and shot if he refused. So he took off with the rest of the squadron and when the dog fights started with British and American pilots, he did his damnedest to disappear into a cloud bank. And, he said, he was not the only one avoiding engagement with "the enemy." If he did get involved in a dogfight, he tried to break away as quickly as possible, and when he found himself in an advantages position, he fired to miss.

He would often deliberately separate himself from the rest of his squadron, go off somewhere, fire his guns until they were empty, then fly back to base.

He actually tried to fly to England once and surrender, but was attacked by British planes and barely managed to make his escape alive.

Had Rolf been as gung-ho pro-Third Reich as some, there might be a whole lot more dead British and Americans than there were.

And you would blame Rolf Holzmann for the Holocaust?

No, Lizzie. Get a grip! Assigning collective guilt is, in and of itself, IMMORAL.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 11:20 PM

But Bobert, it is possible that in this case nobody would have complained, since recently it's only been the Republicans (and a few of the "Fundies" they've been pandering to) who've bandied the "activisim" charge about. And of course the decision about campaign donations was pretty much biased toward their (current) situation so it should be just fine.

Of course in recent past complaints, the basis has invariably been based on "I don't like that decision so it has to be wrong" rather than "The law didn't already say that." (Or perhaps more often it's been "God doesn't like that decision ...," at least in Kansas.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 08:47 PM

In law, it's called "obiter dictum", when a court goes beyond the issue at hand to make a decision that is beyond the issues of the case...

As John has pointed out... Activist!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 07:59 PM

corporations ARE "Real Persons".

As the Marshall Court developed it before 1830, corporations have been real persons since a decade or two before Lincoln was elected president. There have been some limitations on "in what circumstances" the "personhood" concept can be applied, and although we've reduced the circumstances in which there are "different rules for different kinds of persons," differences between "corporate persons" and the "other kinds" have existed.

The recent decision on political contributions implied that corporations are "superpersons" who can make donations in any amount, while the rest of us remain "ordinary persons" who cannot (legally) donate more than a predetermined amount.

The Court didn't "decide" that corporations are "persons." It merely interpreted the existing law as clearly stating that they were.

Since the only decision the lawsuits asked for was whether they can make donations, the Court said "yes." Nobody asked (in the lawsuits filed) what the limits were on any such contributions, so the Court couldn't specify any limits without being "activists."

John

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 07:24 PM

Obviously 'Ingidneous' should read 'Indigenous'

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 07:18 PM

"Why don't 'you people' just get over it?" is what they hear, over and over...

Well, you *can't* 'just get over' a HOLOCAUST.

You can't 'just get over' Continuing Genocide.

You can't 'just get over' being treated like Shite, for CENTURIES...

....unless everyone comes together, arms open wide, hearts open even wider to Embrace and Respect the Ingidneous Peoples of many countries and apologize, from the Soul, for what those who went before us did to them.


'Justice for Aboriginal Peoples' - It's Time

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 13 Jun 12 - 07:10 PM

If that's what you want to believe, Don...then you go right ahead....

Here though, is a message someone left me after I'd told her what deep respect I had for her People. It is why I fight so hard for them, fight to raise awareness of the centuries of shit they've been put through, the lies that have been told about them for so very long...


>>>"Oh Ka"piik'shi!!! (thank you) for your words! I haven't been told these things since many of my family elders passed! I didn't realize you knew my people! so many are unaware of Kikapoo or as we say Kiiwegapawa & Kikaupa, many even believe we are gone! whiped out!! Yet our numbers are the highest now since the very first occupation! But yes I face the horrors of racism everyday, in one shade or another (as we all do) which always shoots me back to the, much worse sufferings of our people. In my lifetime, & I'm only 40!, for instance: Three of my beautiful Aunties (& one unborn child) were murdered, & many dear ones fell victim to suicides-we've had 7. Unfortunately this list goes on-as well as for so many of our people out there. This current pain thrust upon us each day...combined with our Ancestral pain! I feel this is why we as Native people face such traumas in our homes as well-the Ancestral pain is so sadly embedded within our very spirit's, & many forgot how to live in the Circle. But Again I thank for you repect of my Tribe & me! For your beautiful words-that Help Now more than you can imagine!...it felt more like a Huge Hug of Solidarity and Compassion that I needed so much-beyond words! YES I am SO very PROUD of who I am! and YOU! and my Nation!! & I will til my day comes to join my people on the other side of this circle :) ..No'Ki'ki'no'w'Depana!! ...(we never say goodbye :)"<<<<


So don't expect me to kneel at the foot of Abraham Lincoln, or any other of those men carved into that sacred Sioux Mountain!

And I *DO* accept Collective Guilt on this occasion, because The White Man, no matter how decent he/she may be, has chosen to keep silent on all of this, to this day. "It's not *my* problem" when in actual fact, it IS, for we should ALL be standing right beside the Native Americans, beside ALL Indigenous People who are being threatened, all around the world..

And WHERE did I mention Slavery? Although I will, if you want me to....That was you, Don, not me.



From Greg: >>>"It is touching, tho, that Lizzie has apparently made pets out of the Native Americans."<<<

Oh, why don't you just .... off?

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jun 12 - 08:08 PM

Given the small proportion of people- white and otherwise - who could afford slaves, it is surprising to me that so many people were so willing, even enthusiastic, about fighting each other. Even before conscription was in effect, most able-bodied men on both sides left their homes to fight. Makes me wonder if settling the "right" to own another human being is what appealed to most people, no matter how poor they were.

(Of course, no one knew at that time the terrible cost there would be and how long it would take before the war ended. "I'll be home for Christmas" has always been a popular, if short-sighted, axiom.)

I once read an anti-war screed that proposed that instead of going to war, opposing sides should engage in negotiations seeking compromises, no matter how long a successful effort might take. Most wars, the writer said, end up with negotiation, so why not do it instead of.

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jun 12 - 07:49 PM

"The Native American Holocaust was kept well away from The People..."

Hardly!!

Also, Lizzie, I reject your attempt to lay a "guilt trip" on all white Americans. And I reject any concept of "collective guilt."

When I was a teen-ager, I had a good friend who was Native American. We were in the same Scout troop and often went to camp together. And I have a number of black friends. I never oppressed Native Americans, and I never kept slaves. In fact, I worked in the Civil Rights movement during the 1960s.

Nor, for that matter, did any of my forebears engage in anything of that nature. My grandparents on my mother's side came to the United States from Sweden and settled on a farm in Kansas. My father's great-grandfather came to the Pacific Northwest in the mid-1800s with the Hudson's Bay Company, commissioned to survey the San Juan Islands for sheep-raising. After a couple of years, he returned to the Orkneys where he was born, married his childhood sweetheart, and brought her to the San Juans where they settle permanently.

My mother's father was a shoemaker and her mother was kept busy raising ten children. They were too poor to own slaves and they had no way to oppress Native Americans. My father's grandfather got along quite well with the local Native Americans, and great flotillas of war canoes used to come down from the Queen Charlotte Islands (some 6,000 Haida Indians), not to make war, but to help the white settlers get in their crops—for which they were paid in trade goods and a share of the crops. And there were a number of Hawaiians—"Kanakas" (which is what they called themselves) who, somehow, also happened to be on the San Juan Islands, and they, too, worked with and for the white settlers.

Lizzie, your blanket condemnation of all white Americans for committing atrocities against Native Americans, and for the practice of owning slaves (provided one was rich enough to maintain them, which only a small percentage of people were) does not wash!

I refuse to accept collective guilt for something neither my forebears not I are guilty of.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jun 12 - 06:36 PM

Lizzie, I learned about "Manifest Destiny" and what it did to the Native Americans in high school. There is not an American kid who stayed awake in history classes who does NOT know about the Cherokee Death March and other such atrocities.

And what Bobert said is right. The different Native American tribes were not exactly sweetness and light toward each other long before the white man got to this continent. You seem to be buying the naïve concept of 18th and early 19th-century romantic primitivism.

You're a bit late with your condemnations.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 12 - 06:16 PM

whaddaya mean, John? According to the Supreme Court, corporations ARE "Real Persons".

You some kinda Commie er sumptin?

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Jun 12 - 06:09 PM

It's likely that Lincoln would have been concerned about the "rise of corporatism" since much of the groundwork for developing the concept is frequently attributed to "the Marshall Court" (1801 - 1835) when the US Supreme Court, under(?) Chief Justice Marshal "rewrote" a lot of the concepts integral to the existence of corporations, fairly shortly before Lincolns election (1861?), with just enough time for some of the results to be readily visible.

The decisions largely just provided definitions for things previously "undefined" but without them the more recent Court could not have decided that "a corporation is a person, but there's no limit on how much the "corporate person" can contribute to a politician even though a real person can't donate more than pocket change" (slightly rephrased).

John

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 12 - 03:52 PM

Ah jeez, who the hell wound Lizzie up THIS time! Now we're going to be treated ad nauseum to the usual repeated collections of "They Say", "Would Possibly", "it is also believed" pseudo-facts and fairytales masquerating as history.

It is touching, tho, that Lizzie has apparently made pets out of the Native Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Jun 12 - 03:43 AM

My skirts are very clean, thank you, for I recognize and talk about the bad things which were done, rather than try to hide them or make excuses for the Leaders of the time. For that I've gained quite a few enemies, but I truly don't give a damn, for the story of what has happened to the Native American People needs to be spread far and wide..

The shitty behaviour that went on in Britain is very well-documented and known about. The Native American Holocaust was kept well away from The People...and there are some folks on my Facebook page, Americans themselves, who knew *nothing* of the many things I've found out and passed on. They now are also passing on the story through their own pages...

Yes, as Bobert says, messed up humans create messed up human behaviour...but what is so awful for the Native Americans is that this behaviour is STILL going on! Read up about the many Native children being fostered, or worse still, adopted, into non-native families...NPR have the details...Read how certain States get paid far more for taking Native children into care, than for white children, because the Native children are considered to be 'at greater risk'...They are making a FORTUNE out of this!

Read about John McCain and his buddy who are trying to get the Navajo and Hopi to sign away their Water Rights FOREVER, in exchange for them having fresh water finally pumped into their homes..The river water will, of course, be used by his other buddies, Peabody Coal, for whom he relocated The Dine people back in the 1990s, causing 25% of them to die shortly after, so distraught and heartbroken were they! Watch 'The Broken Rainbow' which tells the story...read how they removed their animals, their sacred medicine bushes....

Read up on Klee Benally, awaiting Trial tomorrow for DARING to protest about them desecrating the Sacred San Francisco Peaks with man-made 'snow', made from recycled sewage water...They are, quite literally shitting over the Sacred Site of THIRTEEN different Tribes and they don't give a shit either!

Sacred is as Sacred does.....

Sadly, the White Man doesn't give a shit about Sacred ANYTHING!!

We have fouled up The Water, The Sky, The Land, The Mountains, The Forest...all in the name of Profit and Greed....to feed our insatiable desire for OUR way of life!

Well, I tell you what, it's way past time that Native America rose up and invaded everyone else, turning them to THEIR way of life, for only then will Mother Earth be safe once more.......

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 07:44 PM

You are both saying exactly the same thing...

Messed up human behavior is messed up... End of discussion...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 07:40 PM

In my opinion, the atrocities perpetrated by governments and other ruling bodies upon their own peoples stand by themselves; I think that burning people at the stake or purposely starving a whole nation or hanging a nine-year old child for stealing a loaf of bread is just as bad as what the US did to its indigenous people. It is a matter only of degree- the mindset is the same.

So clean your own skirts before getting too high and mighty. Incidentally, the first people of the land that became known as the United States of America were not as universally pure and spiritual as you prefer to believe. They were just as human as the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 07:04 PM

From gnu:
"Chilling, Ebbie"


Not nearly as chilling as the Holocaust which was visited upon the Native Americans by The White Man!

And WHO was it who started all of this, gnu?
WHO was it who created this whole mess in the first place?

Oh yeah, that's right....it was us..

It was the good ol' White Man, who, puffed up with his own arrogance, behaved in the most evil, violent and appalling way imaginable, for centuries...and it's still happening to this very day..

But hey, the Pope had started up The Doctrine of Discovery, so they felt they had the divine right to just mosey on in, kill everything around them, steal the rest and just keep going....

It is the most shocking, vile story ever...
And the Genocide continues, to this day...........

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 06:47 PM

Well, Ebbie, I suggest, politely, that you do your research a little better...

Lincoln ordered the deaths of 38 men. He felt he would be unpopular if he agreed to all the executions that were desired...It is said that he did a deal that in only agreeing to execute 38 of the Sioux, it would be written into law that the remainder of the Santee Sioux would then be driven out of their lands..

And of course, this whole thing happened due to the Dakota being told to 'eat grass' when they were starving to death..so a few young warriors went out to search for food....finding some eggs...and it all took off from there...

But WHO was it who starved them?

And like it or not, Lincoln ordered for 38 men to be executed, despite the trial being horrendously unfair, despite the guilt of most of them being highly questionable in the first place..

Read what they did to their bodies afterwards...read how they were taken away for 'medical research', where the man who started The Mayo Clinic dissected them.....Read how it is also believed the some of them were skinned as well, their skins later being sold.....

Do not tell me that Abe Lincoln was a hero...He was not!

HAD he been, he would have stood up for the Indigenous People of America in every way possible, apologizing profusely for all the evil injustice brought upon them...And he would have done ALL in his power to try to heal deep, deep wounds...Wounds which exist to this very day, in a People who, for so very long, have been told they are almost subhuman, with no rights, no respect due to them...

Well, Ebbie, I have the GREATEST RESPECT for Native Americans and for all Indigenous People who have, in the main, had total shite poured down upon them by the White Man for way too long...and it is STILL going on today!

Abraham Lincoln was a man of no merit whatsoever in my eyes....and I doubt he gave those 38 men, nor any of the other Native Americans who suffered hugely during his 'reign' any thought whatsoever for the remainder of his days...

I have no respect for what the White Man did, my own people included..and the sooner the Americans and the British have the guts to stand up and say "We are so fucking SORRY for what you have endured because of us!" and MEAN it, the better!!

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 02:54 PM

The fact that's it's been a long time since "you & I were in college" is a good thing... Gave them less time to sanitize history... I remember the centennial...

BTW, I was privileged to catch Dr, Rogers, who was the head of VCU's history department, "History of the South" before he finally retired welll into his 70s...

I'll see about them books... I do better with reviews and articles than books...

BTW, I just opened a box full of Life magazines from 1960-70... Talk about some great stuff...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 02:38 PM

Do us both a favor, Bobert & read 'em. I'm not pushing any particular agenda here- but there's a lot that's come out in the years since you & I were in college.

Dreserves to be considered. Then, lets talk, bud.

Best,

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 01:07 PM

No, Greg, I haven't read either of those works...

I've long contended that Lincoln, rather than re-supply Sumpter should have left Sumpter and just let the CSA slip away...

Of course that is a radical view that makes unionists go crazy... They say that those of US out there who hold these views are pro-slavery... That's just noise...

Sho nuff would have difficult for Lincoln to have done that but NOT impossible...

I have spent many hours imagining how things would have turned out and just about every scenario is better than what we got...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: EBarnacle
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 12:32 PM

Folks, check out the Honore Morrow "Great Captain" trilogy about Lincoln and the War by whatever name you wish to give it. Though it is a novelization of events, she sticks fairly closely to the known history and makes events accessible.

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jun 12 - 09:42 AM

Bobert -

I think you're being a bit hard on Ol' Abe by underestimating the role of the "Fire Eaters" in S. Carolina & elsewhere both in the 30-year run-up to the War and immediately prior to the Southern attack on Sumter.

Just outa curiousity, have you read Goodwin's "Team of Rivals" or Foner's "The Fiery Trial" or any of the more recent works on Lincolk and the war?

(And I ain't talking about Shelby Foote's Novels.)

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Sawzaw
Date: 10 Jun 12 - 11:41 PM

"Noam Chomsky- is he still around?"

"I don’t usually admire Sarah Palin," Chomsky said, "but when she was making fun of this 'hopey changey stuff,' she was right, there was nothing there."

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jun 12 - 10:57 PM

Sawz = Delusional...

(((No comprehension of what information actually means)))

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Sawzaw
Date: 10 Jun 12 - 10:47 PM

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power."
                "Benito Mussolini "

...came in modern Italian political usage to mean group, union, band or league. It was first used in this sense in the 1870s by groups of revolutionary democrats in Sicily, to describe themselves. The most famous of these groups was the Fasci Siciliani during 1891â€"94. Thereafter, the word retained revolutionary connotations.... The fasci they formed were scattered over Italy, and it was to one of these spontaneously created groups, devoid of party affiliations, that Benito Mussolini belonged...


HMMMMM. Do revolutionary Democrats always turn into dictators?

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jun 12 - 10:41 PM

Yo, Sawz...

Start a thread entitled "Who cares what Sawz say about Bobert?"

Please start it and you will see that you are talking to yourself and GfinS... In other words... No one!!!

Get help... Your OCD is out of control...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Sawzaw
Date: 10 Jun 12 - 10:34 PM

Bobert is really giving his lungs a workout in order to avoid answering straight-up questions.

Instead of your OCD, bragging, blowhard history reports, why not just direct people to look up your Fort Sumpter trivia on Google? Sumter that is to us knowledgeable people.

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jun 12 - 10:21 PM

You are boring, Sawz...

There is enough historical accurate info on the Dixiecrats on Google for you to give up what ever little OCD relapses you have over me to rest...

Get another hobby, man... And get back to your Betty Ford counselor...

(((BTW, do you have a clue what people here think about you when you have these little OCD episodes???)))

Didn't think so...

Check it out... You are losing big time on the attacks and on history...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Sawzaw
Date: 10 Jun 12 - 10:13 PM

Bobert is quite the historian until you try to get him to enumerate and actually name some of his mythological Dixiecrats.

Suddenly he is too busy with his latest blowhard project.

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jun 12 - 09:39 PM

As I have pointed out in the past here in the Mud-Pit, I have no love for Lincoln...

He misunderstood the South, pushed too hard in re-supplying Sumpter in the late winter of '61 and didn't walk the last mile in trying to avert the Civil (which is very much wasn't) War... He owed the nation that last mile... I don't care how obstinate the Southern Democrats were...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: gnu
Date: 10 Jun 12 - 09:28 PM

Chilling, Ebbie.

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jun 12 - 05:30 PM

I used to harbour a certain respect for the intellect and postings of a certain Mudcatter but the last two posts are beyond the pale. I will not let them go unchallenged. Fomenting a biased, one-sided, incomplete opinion and pretending that it is a true account of an event is unethical and dishonest. This is not an unknown incident in United States of America's history and presenting it in this fashion is USA bashing to the nth degree. (I'll let someone else do the clickies- I'm too po-ed.)

"The hanging, following trials which condemned over three hundred participants in the 1862 Dakota Conflict, stands as the largest mass execution in American history. Only the unpopular intervention of President Lincoln saved 265 other Dakota from the fate met by the less fortunate thirty-eight." Law2.umkc.edu/faculty

"On August 17, 1862, one young Dakota with a hunting party of three others killed five settlers while on a hunting expedition. That night a council of Dakota decided to attack settlements throughout the Minnesota River valley to try to drive whites out of the area. There has never been an official report on the number of settlers killed, although as many as over 800 settlers have been cited and is not out of line. Further consideration is given to maybe just as many settlers being taken captive as slaves, if not tortured to death as was customary."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_War_of_1862

"Known as the Minnesota Uprising or the Sioux Uprising, it cost the lives of perhaps 800 settlers, government agents and soldiers and led to 303 Sioux warriors receiving a hanging sentence. Only 39 of the condemned actually hanged at Mankato, Minn., on December 26, 1862, thanks to Lincoln's intervention, but that was still the largest mass execution in U.S. history."

http://www.historynet.com/lincoln-and-the-sioux-uprising-of-1862-book-review.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 10 Jun 12 - 02:16 PM

"In today's world I think corporations are in the forefront of every intractable problem we face."


I disagree entirely. WE are the main problem we face. WE have given rise to the Corporations, buying their goods, making them sickeningly wealthy and powerful.

We have *continued* to do this, turning away from what was staring us straight in the face.

We have the power to bring down the corporations in an instant, purely by NOT buying their goods, by withdrawing savings/money from banks...etc..

The most powerful thing we can do is to state that never again will we, The 99% buy ANYTHING from any corporation unless the can not only PROVE it has been ethically sourced, made and delivered, that their staff are well cared for and decently paid and that they use 90% of the massive profits they've made over the years to put right all the wrongs they have done to Mother Earth..

Failing this, we could do as the brave Indigenous People do and stand in front of vast trucks who want to take our Water, Land, Mountains, Forests, Clean Air etc..and simply refuse to move...

Their time is coming to an end, but it will end much faster if we remove this Bloody Cloak of Apathy which so many have pulled around them for so long...

And to those in the BBC/Smooth Ops who banned me for refusing to obey their order of NOT speaking out on Social Issues, due to it 'upsetting people', I hope you're resting easy in your beds these days....

Yeesh!!

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 10 Jun 12 - 02:02 PM

This is now on Facebook..and about an hour ago I wrote this in response to seeing it..

"Ironic that he did not ALSO see the very reason this would happen to 'his' country was because he helped to take it out of the hands of the Gentle, Spiritual, Caring and Respectful Hands of the Native Americans..38 of whom (Sioux) he gave the order to execute in the biggest mass hanging in American History, on December 26, 1862...And to this day, every year on December 26th, regardless of the weather, the Lakota run together, for many miles to the memorial in Mankota, Minnesota, to honour their Ancestors, who, as they waited to be hanged together, joined hands and sang the Sioux death song together, until the soldiers put hoods over their heads......

Abe Lincoln should be removed from Mount Rushmore, along with the others carved into that Sacred Sioux Mountain by a man who was in the KKK. Native American Chiefs should be carved in their place, but ONLY if that is what the Indigenous People of America want, for it is **their** Sacred Mountain..and should be returned to them as fast as possible...."

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jun 12 - 10:30 AM

[Lincoln] was unlikely to have been anticorporate because he was a corporate lawyer before he went to Washington as president.

Agreed- but that was long before the Guilded Age corporate excesses and before the idiotic decision that corporations were "persons".

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 09 Jun 12 - 04:11 PM

Meriam-Webster:


Main Entry:cor£po£rat£ism
Pronunciation:*k*r-p(*-)r*-*ti-z*m
Function:noun
Date:1890

: the organization of a society into industrial and professional corporations serving as organs of political representation and exercising some control over persons and activities within their jurisdiction
–cor£po£rat£ist \-p(*-)r*-tist\ adjective

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: GUEST,EBarnacle
Date: 08 Jun 12 - 11:24 PM

Rap has illustrated the point I was about to make. Although Lincoln had a very clear vision of corporate power in the future, he was unlikely to have been anticorporate because he was a corporate lawyer before he went to Washington as president.

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Jun 12 - 02:50 PM

Omaha, Neb., February 10, 2012 – When Abraham Lincoln signed the Pacific Railway Act of July 1, 1862, creating the original Union Pacific, his vision for the transcontinental railroad was to connect a nation from east to west. While Lincoln did not live to see the completion of the transcontinental railroad, his vision was fulfilled. Along the way, more than 7,000 cities and towns began as Union Pacific depots and water stops.

And, of course,

Abe Lincoln is best known in Rock Island County for his defense of the railroads against the steamboat company that owned the Effie Afton which ran into one of the pillars of the first railroad bridge across the Mississippi built in 1856.

So Lincoln backed the railroads, and there is some evidence that he was offered the position of Corporate Counsel for the NY Central (which he refused).

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jun 12 - 01:24 PM

Noam Chomsky- is he still around?

His statements on corporations were many, one that perhaps most strongly reflects his lefty-loonie philosophy-

"An array of mega-corporations, often linked to one another by strategic alliances, administering a global economy which is in fact a kind of corporate mercantilism tending toward oligopoly in most sectors, heavily reliant on state power to socialize risk and cost and to subdue recalcitrant elements."

Such statements not only expose a complete misunderstanding of globalization, but express Chomsky's desire to create a Marxian state- a simplistic idea impossible in the current world condition of large and growing population, with its individuals born with unstoppable competitive instincts who demand goods and services at the low prices (but scaled to reflect personal differences in the ability to acquire) that only a well-organized corporate sector can provide.
The corporate sector, to feed the popular demands, provides income that is user to pay for the goods, and encourages entreneurship to found new corporations that perpetuate and renew the global economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Abe Lincoln and Corporations
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Jun 12 - 10:19 PM

Yeah, Ronnie has caused our country a lot of damage...

B~