BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?

Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 08:39 PM

Not sure if I should be replying in the "plastic Paddy" thread or this one. While playing with the "Sons of Erin" I had to wear one of those Damn sweaters. Seriously hot! 'Course had a beard as well. Oh, and no other chords except 1,4,5. (with a 2 thrown in to be radical)

"Folk" is what young people play until they get a decent record deal (and can afford a band). After that it's called "roots-rock". Companies and festivals (on this side of the pond) don't want to scare off the public by calling it "folk".

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 08:18 PM

Sam Pirt, I'm listening to you and Bill Sables as I type this. It's a fine recording. You do a grand job with your squeezebox. Thanks for your role in my having the CD!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 08:05 PM

Never heard a cow sing? Well that's a change from the usual horse. It's not true anyway, in either case, as has been pointed out numerous times - though maybe cows are generally better singers than horses. They like music too. I remember hitching one time by a field full of cows, and there were no rides, so I started playing, and they all came over and looked interested. (I didn't say they had good msuical taste...)

So to distinguish our repertoire from that of cows and horses, maybe we should just call it human music. There's Real Human Music, which is what we try to do, and there's Phony Human Music which is what gets thrown at us all the time.

And you've said it there, Mike me marrer, so I'll put it in again in case people might have missed it

-"And the majority of music journalists and media-persons will continue to dislike 'folk' whatever name we dream up for it. Because, although the 'folk' genre has always had some space for growth and innovation, it's basically about continuity and tradition. And continuity and tradition are BORING! Especially if you earn your living writing a weekly column praising everything that's shiny-new, and trashing everything that's been around longer than a few weeks."

Exactly. It's not the image that is the problem, it's the reality of the music, and that's what we like about it. You don't get rid of prejudice by changing your image. You live with it, and you overcome it. (And how many Aran sweaters has anyone seen since the Clancys? If they said weskits now, at least they'd be in touch of the true image.)

Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 12:53 PM

I thought it was Aran, anyway, no double letters at all...

Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Rana who SHOULD be working
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 11:24 AM

Retro? Ducking for cover quickly. :-)

Seriously, FOLK is fine as others have said, change the image - no-one has mentioned the hand behind the ear (or is it finger in the ear)

Rana

Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 11:21 AM

"acoustic" seems to work quite well - or "unplugged" if you are aiming more modern still.

By the way, did you hear about the folk singer who had an Aaron sweater? I actually saw a poster with "Arran" spelt that way once! I sort of assumed the person might be into biblical roots music.

Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 10:49 AM

Folkies DO have facial hair, just check out the pix of the Great Adventure. Oh, OK, Alice doesn't, but everyone with a Y chromosome is giving their secondary sexual charactersitics free rein. Wonder if folky women are less likely to shave too, wherever it is that American women tend to shave... You don't have to answer this one!

No, but seriously folks, ha ha, I agree with Clinton who thinks that the term is fine, let's change the image. Actually not quite: The term is fine, and why worry about the image to outsiders? Anyone into folk has a pretty good image of folk even if that image does include beards. Anyone not into folk, who cares what they think?

Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: BanjoRay
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 10:48 AM

The only useful addition to the title 'folk' is a regional adjective like Irish, Appalachian, Chinese etc. This'll tell tell you most of what you need to know! The Aran sweaters were only ever worn by the Clancy brothers about 35 years ago, although there are still a lot of beards about (including mine, but I am a banjo player). People who like the music won't mind it being called folk, and people who don't don't matter (tee hee).
Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 09:44 AM

God damn! I knew it, I am a living stereotype! Actually the Aran sweater is a bit of a red herring. Any heavy cable knit will suffice. I get mine from craft fairs.

All the male members of the club I go to have beards ( and some of the women too but thats another thread) We sing all these ancient and traditional songs about beer, sailing in tall ships, mining coal and being ripped off by capitalist bosses. The songs have tunes and the pitch of the singers voices alters periodically. bet you dont get that on MTV.

Im folk and Im proud.

If you want me to sing that, hang on while I fill up my tankard and stick my finger in my ear. Oh Whack foll the diddle doll the riddle dill the dido...

Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: MandolinPaul
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 09:44 AM

As Big Bill Broonzy once said:

It's all folk music.
I ain't never heard a cow sing.

Paul.

Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 09:22 AM

"What's in a name? A tune by any other name would sound as sweet"

It matters not what we call the music/song/dance styles currently referred to as 'folk'. Those who know and like 'folk' will still recognise it, and be able to tell the good from the not-so-good. And those who don't like it won't be fooled by a new label - they'll keep on picking on the least attractive examples of the genre, claiming that they're typical, and mocking them.

Moreover,the Bastards in Suits who run the commercial music industry will continue to hate 'folk', whatever flag it sails under. Because 'folk' is home-made music, produced by the people, for the people. The industry needs us all to be docile consumers of their mass-produced wares. Any form of home-made music (especially when it's given away for free) is a threat to their profits. So they rarely miss a chance to sneer at it.

And the majority of music journalists and media-persons will continue to dislike 'folk' whatever name we dream up for it. Because, although the 'folk' genre has always had some space for growth and innovation, it's basically about continuity and tradition. And continuity and tradition are BORING! Especially if you earn your living writing a weekly column praising everything that's shiny-new, and trashing everything that's been around longer than a few weeks.

So, call it 'folk' , or 'roots', or 'traditional', or what you like - but just keep on DOING it!

Wassail!

Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Grab
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 09:22 AM

Should we stop calling blues blues, then, and get away from the hard-drinking black male stereotype too? Or stop calling country country, and get away from the "lonesome cowboy" stereotype?

Anyway, given the popularity of "Irish" music and events such as the Fleadh, is folk in need of help like this? Seems like it's on its way up anyway, so the stereotype doesn't matter.

Grab.

Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Gary T
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 08:08 AM

"Music too good to be commercially successful."

Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 07:20 AM

1) There is nothing intrinsically wrong with Aran jumpers or cardies. I own one although I never wear it during gigs....much too sweaty!

2) I think I agree with Mr Jansch on this one. While there is nothing wrong with the word "folk" itself it does conjure up an anachronistic image in most of the public's mind, unfortunately immediately prejudicing them against some fantastic music without actually bothering to listen to it. I've tried "acoustic music" and "roots music" but am not entirely happy with either for some of the reasons previously stated. Perhaps it doesn't need categorizing at all other than obvious labels like "contemporary" or "traditional" or "Irish traditional", etc.?

Peace

mcmoo

Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 05:12 AM

Sorry, Clinton, it was in very poor taste. I was alluding to the well publicised proclivities of Mr President.

Just off to see my therapist. This has put me back weeks!

Best regards, anyway.

Skipjack

Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 04:46 AM

My point was that we continue to call it FOLK, casue that's what it is... but we work hard to change the "Public Image".. I'd much rather see that happen anyway...

Gods know I'm not a huge fan of the diddly music... Give me a good singer-songwriter anyday...

And Skipjack K8?? I don't get the joke I think yer trying to make...

{~`

Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Bugsy
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 04:41 AM

Already spoken for Sam, Usually includes, Thrash, Punk, Hardcore, etc..

I was going to suggest acoustic, but then again not all folk is acoustic either.

CHeers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 04:39 AM

Clinton, with a name like that, I find it hard to believe! *BG*

I have come up against this problem for ages, especially trying to drum up support for pub gigs and sessions.

I decided to call it Irish music, in the post Riverdance world, and that really cured the problem. Irish is cool (possibly was, but that's another thread's worth) and folk ain't. Pull 'em in, most like it, some don't. But they wouldn't have come anyway if it had a folk label.

The Arran sweater thing stumps me. I've never seen one worn in anger. Perhaps it's just been handed down the last couple of generations, from the 60's and the Spinners.

Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: GUEST,Sam Pirt
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 04:29 AM

Lets get this back on track, a suggestion

ALTERNATIVE

Cheers, Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Bugsy
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 04:28 AM

Clinton, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I wasn't saying that, that is what folk singer/songwriters are like, I'm saying that is the "General Public's Impression" of what we are like.

Cheers

Bugsy

Whoonlywhackshisdiddle-ohintheprivacyofhisownhouse.

Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 04:22 AM

Here's a better idea.. stop wearing the damn sweaters like they are some kind of gift from the gods.... and stop singing "Whack Fol My Diddle-oh" if yer concerned about it... Learn or write some of the fantastic contemporary folk music that's floating around these days and play that instead...

I myself think there's a time and a place for both sides of the spectrum, but I do tend away from "Whacking" my "Diddle-Oh" too often in a gig...

{~`

Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Bugsy
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 03:58 AM

If it's the Doco that was screened a few years ago it's great! Presented by Billy Connolly, with heaps of living and now deceased folk/blues icons including Brownie Mcgee, Wizz Jones, Ralph Mctell, Hamish Imlach, Davey GRaham, John Renbourne, Al Stewart, Archie Fisher, and many more.

By the way I see his point. The general public's perception of "Folk" does tend to be of Bearded Wierdo's in AAron Sweaters singing "Whack Fol My Diddle-Oh".

Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 03:38 AM

No suggestions, don't own an Aran sweater (does a guernsey count?). BTW did you see in the article that there is to be a tv documentary on him on Channel 4 on 28th June? I'll miss it as I'll be en route for Greece.
RtS

Subject: Not 'Folk' - what should we call it?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 03:34 AM

I see in this morning's Guardian newspaper that Bert Snajch - sorry, Bert Jansch - suggests we should stop calling our music folk and get rid of the Arran sweater image.

Any suggestions?

Steve