How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 07:30 PM

Just an addendum - We did Northwood again on Wednesday (Another Pickle Night ) and fooled em again - When we left they were talking about booking us for next year as well !!

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: el_punkoid_nouveau
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 01:30 PM

I believe that the Historical Maritime Society are involved in a few things around the country next year.

epn

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Les from Hull
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 03:30 PM

I've been meaning to add this here for you for some time. I'm sorry if you've done all this work while the information was available in JJ College 'Ships of the Royal Navy' (the standard work on this sort of thing.
HUNTER Dogger. Captured 1646. Sold 1649.
HUNTER (ex-CHASSEUR) Fireship 10. French sloop, captured 1652. Burnt 31.7.1653 in action with Dutch.
HUNTER 6-gun vessel, 50bm. Royalist, captured by Parliamentarians 1656. Foundered 1661.
HUNTER 5th Rate 30,26obm. Dutch, captured 1672. Listed until 1677.
HUNTER Sloop 4guns, 46bm. Portsmouth DY1673. Sold 1683.
HUNTER Fireship 8guns,277bm, 94 x 25ft. Shish, Rotherhithe, 29.4.1690.
HNUNTER 6th Rate 1710 ,24 guns. Captured 20.9.1710 by Spanish off Cape St Mary.
HUNTER Fireship 10. Purchased. 7.9.1739. = VULCAN 1740. Hulked Jamaica 10.1743.
HUNTER Sloop 10guns, 238bm, 89 x 24-sft. Wells & Stanton, Deptford, 28.2.1756. Captured 23.11.1775 by American privateer off Boston; re-captured by GREYHOUND. Sold 27.12.1780 New York unfit.
HUNTER Cutter 8guns, 72bm, 50 x 20ft. Purchased. 1.1763. Sold 1771.
HUNTER Sloop 16guns, 336bm, 103 x 26ft, 16—24pdr. Pender, Bermuda, 1796, purchased on stocks. Wrecked 27.12.1797 Hog I., Virginia.
HUNTER Brig-sloop 18guns ,310bm, 91 x 28ft, 2-24pdr, 16-6pdr. Purchased. 5.1801. BU 1809.
HUNTER Brig 10 (Canadian lakes), 180bm. Lake Erie 1812. Captured 10.9.1813 by Americans on Lake Erie.
HUNTER Wood screw gunboat, 'Clown' class. Pitcher, Northfleet, 7.6.1856. On sale list 6.1869. Sold 1884.
HUNTER Destroyer, 295 tons, 194 x 19ftt, 1-12pdr, 5-6pdr, 2-TT. Fairfield 28.12.1895. Sold 10.4.1912 Ward, Briton Ferry, for BU.
HUNTER Destroyer, 1,340 tons, 323 (oa) x 33ft, 4- 4.7in 8-TT. Swan Hunter 25.2.1936. Damaged in action, lost 10.4.1940 collision HOTSPUR at Narvik.
HUNTER Attacker class Escort Carrier 10,200tons 491ft 7ins x 69ft 6ins Ingalls completed 11.1.43. (Lend-lease returned to UAS 29.12.45
HUNTER Patrol/training boat 32tons, 65-6(03) x 17ft. Fairey Marine 1983. Sold Lebanon 11.1991 = JBEIL 17.7.1992.
(bm is builders' measurement, an idea of 'tonnage' derived from capacity.
I'm also sorry that Hunter has not a more distinguished name in the RN. Plenty of them but they didn't really achieve that much. The WW2 destroyer was part of the famous 'H' class at the first battle of Narvik, of course. Similar to the Hotspur in the Airfix WW2 destroyer set if you want to have a model of one RCNS Hunter's forebears.
If you need any more gen, please get in touch.
Les

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Devilmaster
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 12:07 PM

Devilmaster - a google search for HMS Hunter AND Trafalgar got no results. Interesting find: A midshipman serving on this ship grew famous later on: William Bligh of the Bounty.
Could it be that your old unit HMCS Hunter holds the battle honours of the old HMS Hunter who fought the Americans on the Lake Erie in 1812?

I have been doing some research myself. A google search on "ships at trafalgar" gave a couple websites and Hunter was not part of those lists. Odds are I was mistaken in that. To the other point, HMCS Hunter holds about a dozen battle honours, dating back to the 1600s. The last battle honours Hunter holds, matches the WW2 ship, HMS Hunter, Attacker Class assault carrier which garnered honours at Atlantic 1939 - 44, Salerno 1943, South France 1944, Aegean 1944, Burma 1945, Malaya 1945.

Naturally, now i'm more intrigued, and i'll probably head on down to the unit today to get the full list.

Steve

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Juan P-B
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 11:35 AM

According to yesterday's Daily Mail, Totnes Council, in Devon, have voted against any form of celebration of Trafalgar in future in case it upsets those people living in their twin town of Vire in Normandy.

We've already apologised for India, China, America and slavery! Why not, as a 200th Anniversary celebration, own up that we English were totally wrong to be at war with the French for so long and that we were bullies for three-quarters of the last millenium.

Someone once told me that the Champs Elysees is tree-lined on both sides so that the German army can march in the shade whenever it invades

JP-B

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 06:01 AM

Devilmaster - a google search for HMS Hunter AND Trafalgar got no results. Interesting find: A midshipman serving on this ship grew famous later on: William Bligh of the Bounty.
Could it be that your old unit HMCS Hunter holds the battle honours of the old HMS Hunter who fought the Americans on the Lake Erie in 1812?

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 02:51 AM

Devilmaster - thank you for translating my proposal of Oct. 06 into Navy language.

Another way to celebrate:
Folkies will gather at any port.
They will stand any temporary or reserve navy member of them any amount of tots as long as they are standing.
Folkies will sing "What shall we do with the drunken sailor" and proceed according to regulations of song.

Cheers
Wilfried (Inf)

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Devilmaster
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 01:20 PM

Steve - you've got me there - that one has gone straight over my head. Please elucidate?

AD28 - or Alfa Delta 2 8

Its the NATO signal code for 'Splice the Mainbrace'. (and its actually in NATO tactical publications).   Its the signal used nowadays when ordering ships to issue a tot of rum to each crew member.

The name splice the mainbrace comes from sailing times. The line to trim the sails was called a brace. The brace would run from one end of the yardarm to the other, and then straight down. It was easily one of the hardest jobs if you had to go up the mast and splice the main(sail)brace(especially in battle). If you did it, you were given a double issue of rum.

Nowadays, the official signal AD28, is used sparingly, but when it is used, the flag signal AD28 (seen here) will be hoisted, and all ships crews will line up waiting for their tot. (tot being 2 and a half ounces of overproof dark rum) You can drink your tot neat(straight) or you could have it as grog (watered down, perhaps with a little lime juice and sugar).

I am hoping that my old Canadian Naval Reserve unit, HMCS HUNTER, might be celebrating the battle, because she holds HMS HUNTER's battle honours, and I believe the namesake ship was at Trafalgar.

Steve

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 04:07 AM

And there's the "Gunner Joe" monologue that describes an incident in the Battle of T; curiously, it fails to mentions Nelson's death.

Steve

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 08:43 PM

I bow to your superior local knowledge. bernard Wrigley used to do that Sam Sam pick up thee musket monologue, in which Nelson had a walk on part - I think you're going to need a bit of light relief, lots of miserable songs about the navy - apart from the shanties I was thinking.

Indeed I think The Victory itself has a very oppressive atmosphere, I don't claim to be psychic or anything, but to me it seemed like the sort of place where people have had a very unhappy time.
dunno if it strikes anybody else like that.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 05:45 PM

How about an extended Falmouth Voice Tour?

I know there are plans to mark the route of Lapenotiere from Trafalgar in HMS Pickle via Falmouth and record-time post-chaise to the Admiralty, but I don't know where the post-chaises stopped en route from Falmouth to London.

Kitty

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Blowzabella
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 05:28 PM

..er, so are the Portsmouth Shantymen, weelittledrummer and Sooty Broughton is an old Matelot, to boot. They, like Shep, regularly sing on Warrior, Victory et al.

Steve - you've got me there - that one has gone straight over my head. Please elucidate?

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Devilmaster
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 03:38 PM

A simple yet effective celebration.

AD28

Steve

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 03:33 PM

Well....whatever happens Shep Wooley should get the gig, thats only fair. He's probably the only folksinger that anyone in the navy has heard of. And he'as already in Portsmouth, so it would save on the bus fare.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 10:34 AM

Acccording to Edric Connor, the Trinidad singer, the "Blow Nelson, Blow" song story is quite different. No Nelson getting down from a statue at all. According to him, Nelson's fleet, when chasing Villeneuve in the West Indies just before Trafalgar, were about to put in to Port-of-Spain Trinidad. The lookout saw them coming, and the local troops commander, fearing it was the entire French Fleet,set fire to an outlying fort, called Las Cuevas, (later the Ice-House), and retreated to the centre of town. He says in his book (c1960?) that th icehouse is still a hotel there.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Les from Hull
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 09:42 AM

Actually we got it all wrong! Here's a link to an account of the battle published in France.

French account of Trafalgar

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 08:42 AM

Let's invade France and finish the job! That would a fitting commemoration.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Les from Hull
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 08:36 AM

Actually he said 'Thank God that I have done my duty', several times and then 'God and my country'. This was reported by Victory's chaplain.

Kismet might be an interesting theory Dave, but it's wrong. I don't think that Nelson was requesting a snog, but saying goodbye to a friend. Hardy did kiss him, on the forehead. All the recorded memoirs of people who were there at the time agree on this

The plate is on the quarterdeck, where Nelson was shot, not in the cockpit where he died. And it did stand two or three inches proud of the deck.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 07:39 AM

Did you hear the story that a couple of years back, the plate in the cockpit of HMS Victory, proclaiming "Nelson fell here" was rebated into the deck (made flush with, rather than standing proud). The navy refused to comment on the theories that this was to finally kill all the jokes like "No wonder, I tripped over the bloody thing myself".

I once heard another interesting theory that Nelson's last words were actually "Kismet (ie Fate), Hardy" rather than the usually reported request for a snog.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 03:36 AM

Free rum for all the sailors!
Free rum for all the sailors!
Free rum for all the sailors!
(And his soul goes drinking on)

Tune: Glory, glory, hallelujah

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: HuwG
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 04:16 PM

In 1967, the IRA blew up Nelson's Pillar in Dublin. Here is a contemporary take on the incident, Nelson's Farewell, most memorably performed by the Dubliners.

I believe that Nelson acquired some slaves along with other property in the West Indies, through his marriage to Frances Nisbet.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 04:01 PM

Thank you Blowzabella, I did mean June!

Just put it dowm "Old Timer's Disease!"

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: GUEST,Richard H
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 03:19 PM

Here in Barbados (where of course Tiger Woods is getting married today and Oprah, Bill Gates and everybody else are in town) there is a statue of Nelson "the Preserver of the British West Indies in a moment of unexampled peril" as the locals who put up the cash at that time called him. Sir Richard Westmacott made it and it was unveiled on March 23, 1813, long before the Brits got up Nelson's column.

In recent years it has been a topic of controversy, most Bajans like Nelson where he is as do the tourists. Radical elements claim he is a symbol of colonialism who strongly supported the slave trade and was a slave-owner in his own right.

Some years ago Government renamed our Trafalgar Square "National Heroes Square" and said he has to move but he's still there.

Question: was Nelson a major supporter of slavery or just an officer doing his duty?

BTW, during a big fire in Bridgetown many years ago, eyewitnesses claimed Nelson (the statue) got down off his pedestal to direct operations. There's even a folk song about it:

"De morning de fire, Lord Nelson come down,
an' he put the soldiers in a line to blow The Ice House down." (The Ice House was a hotel.)

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: GUEST,Richard H
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 02:54 PM

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Blowzabella
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 02:32 PM

SkipperJack - I think that IFOS 2005 is actually at the end of June next year, not July. The place to look for info on events that are already organised is the SeaBritain website www.seabritain2005.com I think. (SeaBritain 2005 is a national promotion, spearheaded by the National Maritime Museum and linked into the British Tourist Authority's 'Visit Britain' campaign.) If you have a look at the website under events there ae lots of things. One of the most interesting I've heard of is a plan to plant a whole wood (not just a tree) for every British ship which took part in the battle - the different woods will be names after the individual ships.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 01:51 PM

The International Festival of the Sea is back in Portsmouth next year at the end of July. So I should think that the 200th Anniversary of Nelson's death would be high on the agenda there?

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 12:55 PM

I really like the idea of training a whole new crew to sail the Victory, and firing off a few broadsides. If the ship then falls apart and sinks, still, what a glorious end!

Sadly, there will be no call for shantymen aboard, given the Royal Navy's policy of prohibiting work songs aboard naval vessels. But there should be plenty of opportunity ashore in the pubs to revive the glorious old drinking songs and ballads of the time.

So, who knows where the major celebration will be? Portsmouth most likely, but would someone clarify so we can set our travel plans appropriately.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 11:37 AM

Thanks Mingulay -- I feel I'm getting une prise on the lingo!

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: GUEST,Mingulay
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 11:21 AM

There is only one way. Drink several bottles of Pussers rum whilst heartily toasting Horatio all the while amassing a fleet off Trafalgar to go and turn the bloody French into toast - again. The trouble is that they are so far up their own arses it takes a long time to get through to them. Hang on I'll have a word with Tony Blair, he's up there with them. Perhaps he'll have a word?

Steve Parkes - I like your translation!

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 10:09 AM

A quick Google reveals some ideas already in progress. I see that nice Mr Blair (a Briton, but not an Englishman!) has decided we should play it down a bit so as not to upset the French.

(The Scots were always a bit Francophilic, weren't they? I've always believed that God gave us the French because otherwise we'd have to make fun of the Germans or the Belgians, and where's the fun in that? Salut les crapauds! Voici les rosbifs!)

Steve
PS It means Hiya Froggies, here come the Brits, to save you asking.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 09:54 AM

Hijack French lorries as they come ashore at Dover and burn their contents; blow up a French ship in harbour, regardless of the saftey of anyone aboard; set off a nuclear test ... in short, do the same things the French do to show the entente is still cordiale.

Steve

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Schantieman
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 09:38 AM

My understanding of the way Nelson was brought home was that he was in a brandy cask. His blood stained it darker, so it looked like rum. When the Marines who were guarding the cask sampled the contents (as Marines will) they assumed it was rum. Hence Nelson's Blood for rum in the mob. And a drop of it certainly wouldn't do us any harm right now.

How about a Trafalgar Folk Festival? We could run trips round the harbour (I could try and get a yacht for a few days).

Steve

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Dead Horse
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 08:57 AM

I fear that the only way in which we may legally sink some French nowadays, is to drink their wine.
Personally, I prefer German!
But if there any good lookin' wimmen called "Hardy" that's willin', I don't mind havin' a snog or three.........

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: pavane
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 08:38 AM

In the Flanders & Swan song above, I think the tsk sound is supposed to be a kiss

I think a similar (maybe the same) meeting was described by David Frost as 'The week-old meeting of two weak old men'

I recall a story about Woodrow Wyatt, who was asked by a French official how he spelled his name.
The answer:

"Waterloo Ypres Agincourt Trafalgar Trafalgar."

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: johnross
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 12:43 AM

It would be nice to convince the BBC to either release or license the "Bold Nelson's Praise" radio programme they did for the 150th anniversary. It's a musical play, set on the deck of a ship of the line on the night of Nelson's funeral. The singers include A.L.Lloyd, Ewan MacColl, Stan Kelly, Isla Cameron and several others.

I have a copy, but it really ought to be in wider circulation.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: el_punkoid_nouveau
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 04:47 PM

I aim to learn a few more songs about our Nel, and his battles.

I also plan to make the pilgrimage to Pompey for Oct 21st - His Toniness may wimp out and not declare a public holiday, but we should make sure it is celebrated properly.

epn

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Blowzabella
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 04:34 PM

Well, it's a year closer - anyone got any more thoughts on the subject?

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 07:48 PM

Kevin. I wont ask !!!

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 07:43 PM

And Guy Fawkes. I've got an idea how we could commemorate that one...

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: The Walrus
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 07:24 PM

Herga Kitty,

"...There was a brief item on the radio last week (Today, BBC Radio 4) that suggested that the EU are proposing that member states should re-name places called after battle sites to avoid causing distress to visitors from the defeated nations.... so no more Trafalgar Square or Waterloo station. ..."

Yet again, I believe the official concerned was French, so I say fine, but let the French show the way, remove all references to Austerlitz, Iena(Jena), Auerstadt from Paris - oh and rename L'Arc de Triomphe (after all it was named for Napoleon's triumphs over other Europeans), then perhaps we should think about renaming bits of London

"...There's also the matter of the 60th anniversary of the D-day landings next year..."

And, of course the outbreak of the Great War.

Walrus

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 07:21 PM

I have indeed. And in my history the French have never been the enemy.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Gareth
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 07:01 PM

Ahhhh ! Kevin- have you no sense of History.

BTW for the confused - HMS Pickle brought home the news of Trafalgar.

The gun deck was where 'Jack' lived, and died.

Gareth'

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 01:21 PM

Remember, for the Irish and the Scots the French are traditionally seen as allies.

And also for the Americans, until many of them came over all of a tizz when France refused to cave in over Iraq. Which, from a country which has used its veto time after time to block majority Security Council resolutions, and is still doing so, is perhaps a bit rich.

Commemorating Trafalgar? I'd vote for filling the fountains in Trafalgar Square with wine. Maybe the French would supply the wine as a gesture of friendship, which might shut up some of the carpers. (Perhaps jointly with the Germans.) If Ken Livingstone promises that, it might help him get reelected.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Wotcha
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 12:00 PM

Time for a song:

Come all you bold seamen

Where ever you're bound

And always let Nelson's proud memory go round ...

Cheers,

Brian

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 08:58 AM

Kitty Yes Good old Northwood The Senior Rates Mess was renamed the Gundeck of H.M.S. Pickle,with lots of reading of despatches from the original,a smashing atmosphere and lots of approval for the music provided by us, and they want us back next year.Up the Navy.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 07:50 AM

I reckon we should capture French cargo boats, and set fire to any frozen lamb on board. If their tactics are still the same, we shouldn't have much trouble getting close: many of them closed up their gunports to keep out boarders, so our ships were able to come right aongside. And board.

Steve

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 07:37 AM

The bombs failed to explode because the pilots were going in too low.
The BBC helpfully pointed out the problem and the fuses were reset, to great affect.
Keith.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Blowzabella
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 08:02 PM

Gosh how times have changed - Nelson, what a guy...!

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 07:56 PM

Luckily for the British fleet sailing to the South Atlantic, the bombs which actually hit them that had been bought from Britain tended to fail to go off.

Vive la France!

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 07:54 PM

That song was properly entitled A Song of Patriotic Prejudice, which in itself makes the point clear.