Playing your own stuff at folk clubs

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: Grab
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 03:55 PM

I think the whole 'girls singing their diaries' put-down is now a sad cliche which has an appeal based entirely on jealousy and is made by people who should really know better.

Still enough of them around to make you realise why the cliche started in the first place. More often guys than girls though.

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: JamesHenry
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 03:03 PM

Last I heard greg, Benny was due to have his hat surgically removed.

Great singer.

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 02:51 PM

Whaat about the famous and very wonderful NE singer Benny"the Whale" Graham?

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: JamesHenry
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 02:32 PM

I've never seen a whale performing one of its own songs in a folk club GUEST. Although on second thoughts.......

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 10:25 PM

4 : a distinctive or characteristic sound or series of sounds (as of a bird, insect, or whale)
5 a : a melody for a lyric poem or ballad b : a poem easily set to music

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: Effsee
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 09:57 PM

Scoville, ..."I don't write many songs with words"...umm, just what other kind of songs are there?

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: Scoville
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 09:47 PM

I've slipped in a couple of TUNES I made up, after I'd tested them on unsuspecting music buddies and gotten approval, but never sung anything I wrote. I don't write many songs with words. My best one is much too long for most performances (eleven verses); it's a good song and doesn't sound conspicuously "wrote", nor is it personal, but most audiences just don't want to sit through something like that.

I'm perfectly aware that I don't have any talent for "singing my diary" so I, personally, would never subject an audience to something like that (I'd probably never even write something like that--I tend to write ballads that have nothing to do with my personal life), but if you're good at it, what the heck.

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 09:29 PM

I think the whole 'girls singing their diaries' put-down is now a sad cliche

Possibly the "now" is relevant in my case. I've hardly been to a folk club in the past 5 or more years.

which has an appeal based entirely on jealousy

No, based entirely on past experience which includes watching the reactions of others.

I try not to do jealousy but if I'm going to have feelings on the "wish I could do that" side, it is invariably brought on by a musician who is so much better than me, but given there are so many of them, I don't worry about it for too long...

I'm pretty "tune orientated" (and sometimes don't even bother listening to words) and while there are some words written that I'd like to think I might have been capable of writing, I can't say I've ever had any wish to be a songwriter, let alone get jealous over someone being or trying to be something I've no desire to be.

Even if I did want to be a song writer, I can assure you I'd wanting to be writing stuff that is well received...

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 08:52 PM

Shambles, while I agee with some of your comments on this, I don't see much jealousy in this thread. Care to point a few names out? You arent usually one to spare peoples blushes...

I think the whole 'girls singing their diaries' put-down is now a sad cliche which has an appeal based entirely on jealousy and is made by people who should really know better.

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: JamesHenry
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 04:13 PM

Dg, will you just go and sing your songs.

After four days debate I'm dying to hear how they went.

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 03:18 PM

Shambles, while I agee with some of your comments on this, I don't see much jealousy in this thread. Care to point a few names out? You arent usually one to spare peoples blushes...

Dg, unlike many on here, am not a songwriter or a musician, nor am I much cop as a singer! If I was anything, when I was going to Clubs, sessions & Festivals frequently, I was a Professional Audience Member....*G*

That said, I would be more certain in my own mind of GIVING an honest opinion if I heard the song before knowing it was original. Folkies being folkies, politeness seems to abound, other than among those who need to be often brutally honest, like Club & Festival organisers.

Unless somebody performing was REALLY crap, I cant see many people being partiularly negative..... & that would be doing the 'less-than-competent' performer a disservice really.

It sounds like none of the above applies to yourself though, so think what an impression you will make if one of your own works goes down really well, then the audence find they have just raved over the 1st Club performance of an original work, by its creator....

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 12:35 PM

Tootler - the assumption is that you are playing your own tunes in a conventional performance setting, rather than in a session - is that the case?

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: Tootler
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 12:13 PM

If YOU really like a song, go ahead and perform it -- even if you happend to write it.

There's the rub. You might like it, but will others? On the other hand there may be a song which you did not think one of your best but which goes down really well. There's always an element of uncertainty.

One of my tunes that has had the most positive feedback was not one of my personal favourites when I wrote it. Although it seems to move along quite nicely, I thought I had made it a little too repetitive, but others seem to like it.

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: Grab
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 07:49 AM

Shambles and Genie dead right. If you've written it, sing it. Just make sure you think it's up to the same standard as everything else you're singing - don't give a song special privileges just bcos you (or a friend) wrote it. And if it has all the impact of a week-old haddock when you perform it, maybe it's not quite as good as you thought it was. ;-)

My way of protecting the public from any rubbish I produce is that I leave it a few weeks and then come back to it when the immediate attachment to the song has faded. I wrote one a few months back (based on the Lancashire myth of Peg o'Nell) - it seemed to write itself, and I was really impressed that I could do that. Then I looked at it the other day, and realised why it seemed to write itself - the fact that was a derivative load of balls was why! Hey ho, rewrite time.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 04:06 AM

I'd agree that it's best at first just to slip in a song of your own amongst the other material - which doesn't have to be traditional by the way, it could be from other contemporary songwriters you admire, possibly those who might have influenced your own writing. Of course it depends on the venue/club as to what would go down well - I echo the advice of others and if you can, go along first to observe whether the club has a bias towards trad or other material, and see what goes down well there (this may not always be possible, for example if you're visiting a different area for a short time and only have one chance!)

I also agree it's best not to mention that the song is your own, at first, until you've established yourself as a performer. That might prejudice people either way, for or against the song, before they've even heard it. Let the song speak for itself. If it's any good people will express an interest and probably ask who wrote it. If it's not so good or doesn't go down particularly well, maybe you could learn from that too!

If you are any good as a writer, over time people will get to know this and you will be able to start introducing new songs you've written without any need for undue modesty. Slowly but surely wins the race - don't try to 'break' yourself too quickly. But of course you might be an exceptional writer and if so you could probably get away with it!

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 03:37 AM

My two pennorth would be to go for it. I do trad,parody and original and I don't carry a strange shaped case.Just me and I'm still 'ere! Nil Carborundum Illegitimus.

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: Genie
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 02:12 AM

The Shambles said: "The bottom line is that if you don't sing your own songs - no one else is going to - are they? So if you don't sing them - they will die before they are born."

Word to that.

Writing songs and not letting the audiences hear them is a bit like having kids and keeping them locked up in your house away from the world.

(Of course, if they've no idea how to behave in proper society, that might actually be the preferred course of action.)

;-D

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: Genie
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 01:16 AM

My advice:

Never choose one of your own compositions just because you're close to the songwriter.

Unless the song needs an introduction that identifies the source, just sing the song and observe -- uncontaminated by TMI -- how the audience reacts.
(Often people will ask where the song comes from. If they don't, it's not always important to tell them.)

If you tell people in advance that you're doing one of your own songs, you won't get honest feedback untainted by the desire to be nice.

If YOU really like a song, go ahead and perform it -- even if you happend to write it.

Genie

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 12:10 AM

Take what you've got and do it--you'll know soon enough what the audience likes--then you have two choices, either do more of what they like, or ignore them and do whatever you feel like doing.

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: Tootler
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 05:51 PM

I don't write songs, but I do compose tunes. Before I started playing my own tunes, I tried to establish myself as a competent player of traditional tunes. I then started to slip one or two of my own in and I have been quite pleased with response. Quite a few people seemed to like the tunes I wrote, which encouraged me to keep going.

I still take the approach of mixing a few of my own tunes with mainly traditional material (using the term fairly loosely as a fair proportion of what I play has been written by people who are still alive or only fairly recently dead).

I reckon as you gain confidence and, if people like your material, you can gradually increase the proportion of your own material.

My 2p worth FWIW.

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: Ernest
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 02:34 PM

Guest DG,

after what I have read from you here you seem to care for the audience (very important) and you are prepared to present a good mix of original and traditional or covered stuff.

I am sure you will be successful that way.

Good luck!

Ernest

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: GUEST,John of Elsie`s Band
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 02:31 PM

Right on Cap`n Birdseye. Downe was an excellent club run by Jeff Dale who, I understand , is still playing in Sevenoaks from time to time. Also "!Four Square Circle" were regularly booked there and they gave a great night with "trad." as well as their own material and everyone seemed to appreciate it.

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: GUEST,John of Elsie`s Band
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 02:23 PM

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 02:17 PM

there often appears to be a lot of jealousy involved towards new performers singing their own material

While I'm sure we have all heard words we would have like to have (or to have been able to have) written, I can't say I've ever been aware of anyone being jealous of a song that bores everyone else to death.

To my mind, an honest introspective navel-gazing self-penned effort is often more entertaining than a safe but uninspired rendition of a well-tried classic.

Not to mine, I and others can at least sing (if only to ourselves) to the well tried classic.

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 01:58 PM

Shambles i agree with you, Liz t s iagree with you too. Nic Jones and The halliard did exactly that with Dorothy Drew and others.
   If I HAD A CHOICE OF CLUBS I would go to Sharps too ,good on you Sheila Finn.

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: GUEST,Dg
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 01:42 PM

Thanks again for the advice everyone - especially liked the post by Shambles.

What this thread has made me realise is that I need to add a few more Trad tunes to the repetoire. I'm working on a couple at the moment!!

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 01:29 PM

The tired old traditional stuff is still around because it is good. The jury is still out on the new stuff. If it's good, it will survive. Otherwise it will die.

The bottom line is that if you don't sing your own songs - no one else is going to - are they? So if you don't sing them - they will die before they are born. Should there be any real chance that having gone to the trouble of writing them that you are not going to sing them.

The reason I suggest that you just sing the songs but don't tell the audience that they are your originals - is because that is about the only way you will ever get an honest opinion and be able to gauge the strength of the song.

For as demonstrated to an extent here - rather than encouraging it - there often appears to be a lot of jealousy involved towards new performers singing their own material. Sometimes to the extent that a good original song will meet with a less than honest and sometimes a hostile response - from those who perhaps may secretly wish that they had been able to write it. It is difficult to understand this approach but it would be foolish to pretend that it was not there.

To my mind, an honest introspective navel-gazing self-penned effort is often more entertaining than a safe but uninspired rendition of a well-tried classic. The main point to remember is that it is the song and the performance that is more important than boosting the ego of whoever may be singing it.

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 05:11 AM

There seems to be an attitude from some quarters that 'folk' songs emerged from the ether many centuries ago and were not actually written by anyone. That or they have been subject to the 'folk tradition', which to my mind means badly misheard by some member of the audience, who then rewrites the song and passes it off as his/her own. I sing 'trad arr.' as well as my own stuff. A good song is a good song, an old song isn't always....

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 05:03 AM

Or as Les Barker says, 'here's a traditional one what I wrote'....

LTS

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 04:37 AM

>.where it gets introduced as a 'trad' song! (I'm not naming names but it happened!)
<<

Like Fiddlers Green from John Conolly

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 03:24 AM

The absolute best compliment is when someone steals your song and then it goes the rounds, coming back to you at another event where it gets introduced as a 'trad' song! (I'm not naming names but it happened!)

If Islington is on your beat, then why not go a little further along the Euston Rd and up to Cecil Sharp House on a Tuesday. Despite the stuffy image of the club derived over the years, it's not at all like that.

LTS

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: alanabit
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 01:36 AM

I would have to plead guilty to most of the charges, which are laid against the beginner singer songwriters, when I started out. A bit of busking and several years of Irish Pubs cured me of those habits. I like to say: The audience is there to forget about their troubles -not to hear about yours. It has been my motto for some time. I think in folk clubs, essentially people want songs which add to the sum of stories and characters, whom they can hear about.
At one time, back in the seventies, there was very much a vogue for the personal, confessional song. I think that was more a pop music thing though. Oddly enough,although a lot of those writers felt they were being very original - and the critics did at the time too - they now all sound remarkably like the same self obsessed person.
Folk club audiences are usually very generous. If you are trying to improve, they will give their best to support you.

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: GUEST,Bruce Baillie
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 01:27 AM

...From what I've seen of the folk circuit these days there aren't many people who don't do their own stuff!

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 09:33 PM

I think Dg's gonna do just fine, and may even compose a song based on some of these posts.

Reconnaisance is essential, via Mudcat but best by direct observation (wearing dark trenchcoat with the collar turned up and your hat brim tilted low over your eyes).

ClintonH- ;~) Where can we get a chance to hear you sing?

Good luck!
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 06:21 PM

"Just don't forget why they are called Folk Clubs."

Kendall is right. There's folk in there and they want to be entertained and get away from many of their cares and worries for an evening. YOU can help them do that. If you do, they will become 'fans' of you and your music. And one more remark from me before I leave this thread: NO ONE ever died from a bad performance. They are part of the business, part of the learning and part of the process. GO DO. And above all, have fun.

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: Pistachio
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 06:01 PM

I attended a 'local' event last night and recognised some of the comments made above - if you sing your own song(s) it really helps if you consider a brief explanation of the song/story and remember to sing clearly so your audience can understand your words and the sentiment of the song. A nervous performer played his guitar well but unfortunately mumbled his way through words and made me jump when, at the end of the song he used the 'mike' to say a very loud 'thankyou'. Had he only used the mike and clear diction I'm sure I would have enjoyed his performance more. Audiences are 'forgiving' and recognise newcomers nerves but like Shimrod said above, don't make it go on and on.
Whatever you do Dg, enjoy your performances.

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: kendall
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 04:19 PM

Just don't forget why they are called Folk Clubs.

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 03:45 PM

If they like your songs you will get great applause. If not, mild applause. When I performed, I did write many of the songs I sang. However, I always made room in various sets for some traditional music that I liked and owed homage to. Even when I reached a point in some places that people would come to hear the songs I'd written, I always found it important to include other folks' material and stuff from bygone eras. That included things the audience could sing along with, and on occasion do the whole song with only guitar input from me. Go sing your songs. You'll find out the way we all find this stuff out: experience. Best of it all to you.

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: kendall
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 12:41 PM

The tired old traditional stuff is still around because it is good. The jury is still out on the new stuff. If it's good, it will survive. Otherwise it will die.

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: Duke
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 09:03 AM

Just play your music. A good song is a good song no matter who wrote it. I must admit that I find it hard to listen to youngsters singing about the woes of life before they have even lived it.

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 07:01 AM

Dg - As Roughyed said , most clubs are welcoming though in my opiniuon sometimes a little too sympathetic to new performers ! But fortunately , the 'You cant bring a guitar in here , this is a FOLK club' attitude that some 'traddy' clubs used to have is now a thing of the past , and in my experience ANY form of acoustic music that is well presented will be at least listened to ! And if Islington is your nearest club , you have a fair few others within easy reach by Public Transport !

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 06:40 AM

Whatever you do don't hog the stage with some 10 minute epic and then, just when everyone has lost the will to live, REPEAT THE LAST F...KING VERSE!!!!!

Seriously though, please get some honest feedback on what you're doing. For years I've attended singers' workshops and I am convinced that good, honest, positive criticism makes for better singers and, ultimately, more enjoyable nights at the folk club.

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: GUEST,Dg
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 06:19 AM

"Oh, heck, don't assume Cambridge has been anything to do with folk music for decades!"

I knew someone was going to say that!

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: Roughyed
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 05:46 AM

I was asked this year if I wrote my own songs and said that I did but I didn't think they were very good. The reply I got was "What the hell's it got to do with you?" Brilliant! Try them out. If the audience like them, great. If they don't, improve them. Most clubs I know are very tolerant and encourage new talent. If they don't, try another one or start your own. You'll find a musical home somewhere.

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 03:24 AM

Oh, heck, don't assume Cambridge has been anything to do with folk music for decades!

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: GUEST,Dg
Date: 09 Sep 06 - 06:37 PM

Thanks again for the responses.

Just a couple of things - I was intending to visit the Islington club as an audience member first, to check what it's like.

Also, after playing quite a few 'open mics' and various 'acoustic nights' (both paid and unpaid gigs), I've decided I would much prefer to play in a folk club environment (ie, without a PA and to an audience that has actually come along to listen to the music), which is why I asked here.

I haven't really been put off by any responses, as I mentioned - I do play a fair few traditional numbers and my stuff is certainly as 'folky' as anything I heard in the club tent at Cambridge this year.

I just wanted to guage what the overall view was - my first ever foray into playing live was at a folk club run by my Dad! But I haven't had much experiences of folk clubs for a few years.

Anyway, any more thoughts would be much appreciated, and this thread is certainly interesting for everyone's views...

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Sep 06 - 06:15 PM

Play it: just do not pre-empt reactions by saying who it's by.

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: JamesHenry
Date: 09 Sep 06 - 06:09 PM

Rule No.1 Dg - never ask for a concensus.

Reading through the responses you have received, you have either been put off entirely as far as performing your original material in front of a folk audience is concearned or at best have decided to postpone the event until you have done some market research. It's you who has to have faith in your material. If you do then perform it and stand by the courage of your convictions. Listen to others' opinion of your work and learn from it.

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: Santa
Date: 09 Sep 06 - 05:42 PM

Don't ask us, ask the organiser at your nearest club. Even if he says the club wouldn't like your stuff (blues-influenced? Ohhhhh dear) he will be able to point you in the direction of another club that will. But I'd have thought most clubs would be willing to give you at least one try, though you might have to wait for a singers' night, depending upon the club.

Subject: RE: Playing your own stuff at folk clubs
From: Scoville
Date: 09 Sep 06 - 05:38 PM

I can even handle some teenage philosophers as long as they don't hog the singing time and whatever they moan, they moan with good tune and lyrics. Lots of good song ideas sunk by lack of melody and boring and/or contrived words. (Meant as a general statement, not aimed at Dg specifically.)

But, yeah, I agree--watch your audience response and go from there.