BS: Teenager problems

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 10:02 PM

Whoops!

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 10:01 PM

Comunication, comumication, comumication.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Peace
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 06:00 PM

Oh, yeah, that is the TRUTH!

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Cluin
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 05:56 PM

The smell of bacon frying and fresh coffee... there's motivation!

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 08:18 PM

One thing for sure that helps is the smell of a good breakfast. Might mean getting up a little earlier but it does get them motivated. Its worth a try.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Hollowfox
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 04:52 PM

After reading this thread, I just feel lucky. I seem to have lucked into the position between benevolent dictator and buddy. A lot of times I end up as a friend who nags. As for being tough, they still come to me with problems. They know I don't bluff when I say something, be it a threat or a promise. They know I'll listen to their side of the story, and I don't usually go off the deep end. As for obedience, well, good luck. Likewise gratitude, although you may hold to a faint hope that she'll acknowledge all your hard work in forty years or so. You're right that it's better to have her behave well in the rest of the world and poorly at home than vice versa.
To answer the original question, yes, you need at least some of your own time, or you'll be worn down like a fingernail by an emery board. Besides, you're the adult and there are some aspects of your life, no matter how small, that are for grownups, not kids; even if it's not having a balanced meal when there are no witnesses, or going to a movie that they're too young for. If nothing else, this lets the teen know they haven't got it all and gives them something to aspire to.
As for the specifics, I agree that you're giving up if you let her smoke because she'll do it anyway. As I said, I'm the mom who nags. You've got a sense of smell, right? So you can call her on it. Granted, she may be too addicted to quit, but why should you be the only one uncomfortable with the situation? If you have the fortitude to deal with the whining, you might just save her a lot of money that she could spend on something better than tobacco and painful medical procedures.
As for not getting up in the morning, well, my mother dropped me off at school on her way to work. Maybe this can work for you as well.(Of course, she'd have killed me if I skipped.) for getting her out of bed, pull off the bedclothes, cross her ankles and roll her out of bed by keeping the feet more or less together and twirling them until she's out of bed. Grogginess and surprise should work in your favor. Cold hands are a plus. And make sure she can't just reach out and grab the blanket. I only had to do this once.
One thing that works sometimes is giving a reason for something that they can understand. My uncle Jim (four years older than me) was a regular wolverine of a hellion in his teens, always getting into trouble in school. Then he figured it out...he liked the good things in life. If he wanted the good things in life he'd need money. To get money he'd need a job. To get enough money for the lifestyle he wanted, he'd need a good job, and that meant a college degree. Once he figured out a good reason to get good grades, he got them, got the degree, got the job he wanted. He was still a wolverine of a hellion, but his parents slept better at night, and were proud to attend all his graduations, through the doctorate.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 03:51 PM

When I'm making pancakes, the first one always looks a bit strange, but it tastes just as good, and that's what pancakes are for.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 03:13 PM

I'm sorry - I wasn't suggesting that the teen in question needs *more time* in the morning, and should be allowed to make the parent late for work indefinitely. I was offering my opinion that the issue of getting up and getting to school can't be allowed to linger on as a virtual stalemate. If it were me and my child, that is where I would choose to make my stand. I'm also not saying that the only allowable outcome is for the kid to get up and go to school, if the kid can come up with an alternate plan that doesn't involve staying in bed, ditching her responsibilities, and not addressing the problem, whatever it is.

I'm not suggesting there's an easy fix, but I am advocating a "I'm not going anywhere til this problem is resolved, whatever the cost" approach.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: JudeL
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 12:51 PM

I tried it... it didn't, it just made more washing

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Cluin
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 12:23 PM

The old tried-and-true... a pot of cold water gets `em out of bed right quick.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: JudeL
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 12:18 PM

Having a teenager refuse to get up & go to school can be a lot more difficult to deal with than suggesting they need extra time, & you should go to work late. One of my sons at the age of 15 started point blank refusing to go to school, refusing even to get out of bed. I tried everything I could think of, every approach from pleading to bribery, negotiation to removing quilt, thru trying to talk with him when he was in bed & out, changing his diet & talking to the school. I had letters from the Educational Welfare Officer threatening to take me to court. I told her that any suggestions that I had not already tried as to how I could get my son to get up & go to school would be welcome & if she thought she could get him to get up & go to school she was welcome to try, but sending unrealistic & threatening letters was distinctly unhelpful. The whole family tried family therapy & we had social worker involvement. My ex (by the way) had moved a couple of hundred miles away , & was no use at all having chosen to not even leave a phone contact number. Although he had repeatedly denied it, the initial problem had been one of bullying at school, but by the time the extent of the problem had been uncovered (resulting in 2 of the bullies being moved schools & 1 being expelled) the damage had been done & my son would not go to school at all. He eventually attended a program for school refusers which had limited accademic support which meant that he couldn't take the 10 GCSE's he would have taken (& had a good chance of passing well) which was not ideal but at least he was doing something.

I still don't really know why my son behaved the way he did, although bullying may have been involved at the start I'm sure there were other things going on which influenced his behaviour. One thing I do know & that it's a lot harder to have sole responsibility than to share that with another parent. & Whether you call it having a life of your own, or networking, or maintaining friendships with other adults, it may not reduce the responsibility but it does help you maintain a sense of perspective which is very important when interacting with teenagers.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: *Laura*
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 02:28 PM

"We ain't no delinquents - we're misunderstood!
Deep down inside us there is good!"

- the teenagers from West Side Story.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 10:09 PM

Not what I would call pleasant, liesure-time reading but fascinating none the less.

How sad. I think we are just beginning to realize that children, too, have mental health disorders. We are starting to recognize depression in children. At least now we are not so quick to blame the mother as in the past.

I hope people don't read the link and start thinking their kids are mentally ill just because they talk back and don't want to go to school! On the other hand, lack of success in school can be depressing and sleep is a great escape. I still remember my mother moaning, "All you ever do is sleep!" Looking back, I think I was depressed and wonder if I would have been co-operative if help was offerred.

When your hormones are raging, its pretty hard to control your mind.

More rambling. Good luck and remember they do grow up - usually in spite of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 06:20 PM

This oldest child (me) told you it's nuts, so why should I go ask another one? You can find just as many middle or youngest children who have problems. And it is a rare occasion when the pancakes that I'm cooking have ANY that don't turn out right--my recipe is just enough for the three of us in the morning, so if I waste a pancake someone doesn't get their full serving. It's all in your preparations and paying attention. But that can be said for parenting, also.

Jeffrey Dahmer was mentioned--his is such a bizarre case that I don't think he compares with any stories of teenage angst we might generate on this thread. Here's some of his story.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 09:14 AM

Excellent points, SueB. Especially that last one. It's a great idea to arrange with work to come in late for a week or two to deal with the issue. After the holidays might be a great time for mother & daughter to start anew.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 01:12 AM

I'm still trying to interpret the original question, the one that started this thread. I'm not sure that you CAN have a life of your own when you have kids - once you have kids, you and the kids are in it together, for better or worse. You can't have a life of your own, because everything you do affects them. Which isn't to say that you shouldn't have your own interests, or time to yourself. Everybody needs however much space it takes to not feel too claustrophobic about the other people you're sharing your life with day in, day out, 365 days a year.   But the operative word is sharing.

To me, even the language that the question is phrased in is potentially damaging - "a life of my own" suggests a desire to be rid of the responsibility for anyone else's life. It sounds ambivalent at best, maybe even a little passive-aggressive. And if one parent has already left to go have a life of his own, how scary for a child to feel that the other parent might do the same thing.

In my opinion, for what little it's worth, I would be wondering if the kid who is acting out isn't trying to tell you something or ask you for something. Then the problem would be to figure out what.

Someone made the point about choosing your battles - the one I would pick for a showdown would be getting up and getting to school. If getting her to school means being late for your job, so be it - but every minute you're late because of getting her to school is going to have to cost her BIG (loss of spending money, or phone time, or whatever it is that she likes that YOU PROVIDE that isn't necessary for her survival,) because it's costing YOU big, and you two are in this together. She doesn't have to know that you've arranged in advance to come in to work late everyday for the next week or two so you can resolve this family problem. She does have to know that she's more important to you than your job, and that if she was in trouble, you'd put her first.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Peace
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 11:50 PM

Did Dhylmer have a mother to love him?

WHO?

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 11:29 PM

Did Dhylmer have a mother to love him?

Where was mother during the Tate LaBianca murders?

Does Mr. Rodriquez have a Mrs. to visit him in jail/

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 07:04 PM

Not nonsense SRS, but I'll agree it is flawed! Ask any only/eldest child!

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 06:45 PM

The pancake theory is nonsense! (Sez this oldest child with two equally bright and talented children!)

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 05:57 PM

Ideally perhaps most people wouldn't have any kids, but there'd be a few who would have lots and lots, and they'd get quite good at raising children, after they'd learnt on the first couple; and the outcome would be that most of them turned out pretty well.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 05:30 PM

BTW Guest JTT, I have a friend who shares your theory--she says kids are like pancakes, because the first one usually doesn't turn out as well as all the rest!

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 05:19 PM

Having strong, clear boundaries, and teaching adolescents that they are accountable for both their good and bad behavior by giving them consequences (both positive and negative) is what helps them make their way through the transitional years from child to adult.

All the latest science shows that the adolescent mind isn't nearly as "mature" as we want to believe it is.

Just ask any parent or educator of great kids who make incredibly bad, sometimes dangerous, sometimes even deadly decisions. In a single day, I see a hundred examples of otherwise great, very bright, very mature kids making really bad choices and decisions in ways that adults don't.

I'm not saying punish kids, I'm not saying be negative. What I'm saying is that raising up teens requires boundaries and balance, and realistic adult consequences appropriate to their actions, both positive AND negative...and vigilance. They will wear you down much sooner than you will them, for sure!

Part of maintaining healthy boundaries is changing them, and updating them regularly as the teen matures. But ONLY as they mature. If they aren't mature enough to drive, then don't allow them to drive! PLEASE!!!! Teens kill more people with cars by far than any other age group. That is VERY real. If your kid can't handle a car, then don't give them the keys to one. Don't cave in to their constant begging, pleading, pressure tactics, etc. Make them drive with you until they are ready to drive alone AND responsibly with their friends.

BTW, saw an interesting statistic on the news about teens and driving last night. In the early 70s, 52% of 16 & 17 years olds had a license. Today, only 42% do, despite a huge increase in the number of cars on the road, in the number of drivers, etc. Yet still, teens kill 4,000 Americans every year, and while the number of teen drivers continues to go down, the teens that do drive are killing more people every year.

No one learns from their mistakes if they are never criticized, if they aren't analyzed by others--their egocentric views of themselves are just too myopic. That becomes very dangerous for kids too, and leads to them isolating themselves for fear of being looked at by others. Can you imagine teaching someone to drive a motor vehicle without being able to tell them what they are doing wrong, or only by "giving praise"?

That's what I'm talking about here folks.

I will never buy into the pandemic of "feel good, be positive all the time, and never a critical word" propaganda so prevalent in the public education system and among middle and upper class parents. Just plain don't buy it at all, because that is just not the way the adult world works.

Shielding teenagers from the realities of the adult world by playing these "only praise" games also makes them not trust you. They know you aren't giving them a realistic view of themselves or the adult world. Then they are cynical and manipulative (I see this day in and day out, watching the students who are savvy enough to have the "nice" teachers wrapped around their little fingers).

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 11:03 AM

If you micromanage they can end up beyond your reach and influence altogether.

My mother made the mistake of telling us that she wasn't going to date because she was focussing her attention on us. We heartily wished that she would date and focus a bit less on us. As it happened the attention was real spotty. There weren't social networks in place back then that exist now, and one brother fell through the cracks. Enough said.

I don't rule out a relationship, but I don't plan to shoe-horn one in, either. I've seen friends try "serial relationships" after divorce (sometimes after separation--talk about painful for the kids!) and frankly, it looks like they're including another kid in their households.

It would be nice to set the example of a good single-partner relationship, but that isn't happening right now. Instead, they're seeing the example of a good ex-partner relationship, in which each is treated with courtesy, respect, and affection, if not passion. We'll live with what we have for now.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 09:49 AM

I have always contended that the correct method is to start with the second child. First children are hell to raise.

But since most people don't do this perfectly sensible thing, I have a couple of suggestions.

Teenagers aren't children, nor are they adults, so the relationship you have with them is neither the one you had when they were children, nor the one you will have when they are adults. I know this sounds blindingly obvious, but it's not when you're actually dealing with them.

All the "not in *my* house you won't" in the world won't help with someone who's trying to find her way to the unmapped territory of adulthood, with only the knowledge of childhood.

The only thing that works with teenagers is faith and praise. Don't criticise: they have a strong internal critic, and it doesn't need any help. But "catch them being good" and praise, and reward good behaviour *on the spot*, and you'll be amazed at the result.

(For instance, it does no good to reward someone for bringing you a good report card. That way, you're rewarding the behaviour of *bringing the good report card*. What you want to do is reward the kid for doing homework by bringing up a cup of tea and biscuits *while she's doing it*, but when she's nearly finished.)

When I had a son who seemed to be trying to turn himself into James Dean, the only thing that saved us was the car; I'd say "Fancy a quick drive in the mountains" and he'd grab his guitar and hop onto the back seat, drape his legs over the front and play quietly as we drove, and we'd start chatting - instead of it being constant conflict.

Don't be insulted when I suggest you read a book by an animal trainer, but Karen Pryor's Don't Shoot the Dog
has some excellent tips for raising kids. She was a dolphin trainer, and the book is about the behavioural methods used for dolphins, and later for other animals.

I use her methods in work, with colleagues, and they really work.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: MBSLynne
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 09:47 AM

Funnily enough, I have few problems with my 14 year old at the moment. My problem is the 9 year old!

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Amos
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 09:29 AM

I think it pays to remember that what you are trying to raise is someone practiced in making their own decisions and living life. If you micromanage, you produce someone dependent on you for thinking who will have to learn later all the things they should have learned with you about thinking for themselves.

At the same time, as someone mentioned, the boundaries need to be clearly made known for them to learn about. Socializing a growing mind requires huge amounts of patience as the owner migrates from lizard-brain to primate-brain to forebrain in her thinking.

That's the high-wire balancing act. But all you can ever do is the best you can -- lots of patience, lots of love, lots and LOTS of continuing to communicate and be there.

They will reward you handsomely for your efforts.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 08:56 AM

If someone does something wrong, then ladies, are you suggesting they NOT be ashamed of their actions, or feel guilty about it? That children should be raised with no sense of guilt or shame?

Thank you very much, but I'm pretty fed up with the education system being the dumping ground for kids who have been raised with no sense of guilt or shame.

As a parent and an educator, I know that you never shame or guilt or affix blame to the person, but to the action. Follow that golden rule, and you can make remarkable progress.

But raising and educating kids with no sense of guilt or shame just results in really frightening, selfish, arrogant teenagers who can't and won't control themselves. No thank you.

I'm plenty open minded. Just not so open minded that my brains have fallen out.

And why am I not surprised it is women who suggest that we not be strict? You can be both strict and loving, strict and positive, strict and fair.    When we simply are "understanding and giving them space" kids never know where they stand, what the rules are they are expected to follow, and never experience realistic adult consequences for their actions.

I'm sick of being that dumping ground, like I said. Kids need strong boundaries, they need to know and clearly understand the simple rules we all live by, and they need to know and clearly understand the consequences for violating all of the above. If we don't teach them those things as parents and educators, just how in hell are they supposed to learn those things?

Life is not limitless. But once we know the boundaries in life, our potential is limitless.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Jeanie
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 05:33 AM

Lots of good advice on this thread ! I'm also bringing up a teenage daughter on my own and have been sitting here nodding my head constantly as I read all these situations and ways to deal with them. To all the good advice given here, I would add that it's so important to remember, in the thick of it all, that TIME PASSES, and it passes remarkably quickly.

This time last year, I was very much in the situation the originator of this thread was in. I don't know how old the daughter in question is, but (at a hunch) probably around 14 ? I've seen remarkable positive changes in outlook happening as my daughter has moved through this past year to be coming up to 16. I always noticed the same in the girls I taught. Years 9 and 10 are the most challenging - for parents, for teachers, and most importantly for the girls themselves. Add into the hormonal melting pot mum's own likely hormonal upheavals, being "of a certain age", plus maybe the odd demanding elderly parent or two, bills to pay, work that must be sought and a job that must be kept..... and "Hubble bubble, toil and trouble" just barely meets the description !

Do talk to as many people as you can. Find someone in the same boat who you can have a good laugh with.

Schools *can* be a bit slow on the uptake if you tell them about a problem situation, but generally I would say that if you keep reminding them, they will be extremely helpful.

The most awful thing, I think, about being a single parent (also applies to being the only child of an elderly parent)is the unfounded guilt, and the ongoing realization that the guilt *is* unfounded. If you are feeling guilty, you are a ripe target for being manipulated. It's something I find I have to keep working on, over and over, but it does get easier. As people here have said, it is crucial that you do something, however small, that is just for *you*. Otherwise, *you* disappear.

Talking to and laughing with kindred spirits is some of the best medicine. Original Guest: do PM me if you'd like to.

All good wishes,
- jeanie (seeing more light at the end of the tunnel than this time last year.... :)

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 11:28 PM

I think there may be a misunderstanding about "giving them space."

I mean that we shouldn't micro-manage our children's lives. At some point they have to manage without expecting us to jump in and sort it all out. They have to be responsible for their actions.

I, too, am a teacher and understand perfectly well why children need boundaries (thats why they have parents and teachers).

Sure, kids need to know that its a scary world and that they have to be careful but I don't think that includes fearing your parents. Fear, guilt and shame just shut down the communication.

I work with seven year olds. The children that are controlled by fear, shame and guilt are the most difficult to manage in class. When these kids are away from their parents, anything goes. In other words, they have no internal locus of control. When a child is tightly controlled by their parents, they do not develop the internal control mechanisms that are necessary to survive in the larger society. Its a fine balance.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 10:00 PM

"The kid has to know that no matter how ashamed you might be about any mistakes they make, you still actually *love* them, and are willing to let them make some mistakes so that they can grow from it, and are willing to help them to learn how to pick up from their mistakes."

Bingo. If the relationship isn't based on love to begin with, nothing will work. Not guilty or shame, not being understanding and "giving them space" (I'm sorry, but as the parent of teens, that saying just plain sounds like hippy dippy shit to me).

Everyone operates with a sense of boundaries in life, and those boundaries are based upon our desire to maintain the relationships that matter to us. If a parent doesn't really give a shit about their kids, they will demonstrate that fact over and over by trying to guilt and shame to control them, or by ignoring them and calling it "being understanding and giving them space". Neither will work if love isn't at the center.

I love and truly care about certain people in my life. If I ever did something to even slightly embarrass them in front of their community, I would feel really, really bad about it. So why do we not expect that our children feel the same as we do about that? Why should we dismiss the use of guilt and shame as deterrents, especially when it protects kids from their own stupidity and poor decision making ability when they freely choose to engage in high risk behaviors?

I want my kids to survive the teen years as strong, healthy human beings who are loving and compassionate. Like I said, I work in an urban high school and see the extremely negative results all the time of "understanding" parents who "give their kids space" and expect them to figure out what we ourselves have yet to get sorted out about life. I'm not advocating routine use of guilt and shame to control kids' behavior. I'm saying you don't exclude limited, reasonable uses of guilt, shame and yes, fear to explain the reasons why someone might want to think twice before doing something idiotic they very well may regret in the long haul. For those things, shame, guilt, and fear are fine as deterrents, not a control mechanism.

Or are we all going to suggest that kids shouldn't be ashamed for starting smoking? Or afraid of the health consequences to themselves and the people who breath their second hand smoke as a result of their smoking?

Give me a break. I have much less problem with a kid missing school because there are other ways of getting a high school education, that only effects them in the long run. But if they just drop out, never finish, and then can't support the children they bear because they have no education? In which case, they bloody well ought to be ashamed of themselves for not bothering to do the work of getting an education, and making their children suffer for it.

Sometimes I think my generation of parents has just plain lost their minds. If they ever had them to begin with that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Peace
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 05:03 PM

Thinking that households should be run as democracies instead of benevolent dictatorships is a mistake, IMO. Mom and/or Dad have to be in charge. As the kids get older, the decisions they participate in making should get progressively more 'important'. Basically, show as we go that you can make 'wise' decisions and you will be allowed to make more of them. I don't think shame has to play in it, but if the child DOES something shameful, maybe it's time for a talk.

I have seldom seen a use for things like spankings or corporal punishment. But I have seen a use for "when you decide to see things in a reasonable manner" I am here to speak with. Until then, you're grounded.

Lots of what goes on with kids is about trust and mutual respect. Sometimes, "this is the way it is my little darling" has to come first. Done from love, it can be a useful tool. However, I used to preface those kinds of talks with, "This is gonna hurt you more than it will me."

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 04:40 PM

I strongly disagree with Guest about using fear and shame as a method of control.

Everyone will rebel against this at some time in their life. It may happen when they are teen-agers but worse than that is if they rebel later in life. At least when you rebel as a teen-ager, you have a loving environment to return to. When you rebel as an adult, you may have no where to return.

SRS - I agree that a parent must always put the needs of their children first. Staying within distance of the other parent is often the best way to do this. I also agree that bringing a lover into the home when your kids are teen-agers is inviting conflict. This does not mean you must necessarily rob yourself of a social life outside the home. In fact, solid friendships are a great source of strength.

My daughter used to babysit for a woman that she could talk to when times got tough. I also became good friends with her. Later, when her daughter became a teen-ager, guess who ended up on my doorstep? Both girls are now living their own lives and both me and the other mom are best buddies. We are both grateful for the friendship and guidance we have given each other over the years.

Was this just luck? No. I knew that I had to find people to support me as a parent because I was a single immigrant with no family to fall back on. I made an effort to nurture friendships that would enhance my homelife and the lives of my children. As adults, they have told me many times how rich their lives were as children. They never felt deprived of anything. In fact, they had a much wider exposure to life than their friends who were raised by the parental unit who protected and controlled them with fear and guilt.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: hesperis
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 02:39 PM

You have to have a life. Or you'll be resentful and they won't respect you, because they'll resent that you resent them. So get a life, insist on having time for just YOU and let them know when that time is going to be.

You also have to be there for them, which mostly means open to actually listening to them. They may be insane by adult standards, but their own logic makes sense to them and is very real, and imposing your own logic isn't going to work. If you want the respect of a teenager, it's useful to respect them first. If you never see them, then begin insisting on time just for THEM individually as well as time just for YOU.

Yes, boundaries are needed, and you're going to have to hold tight as they test the boundaries, but so is understanding and space. The kid has to know that no matter how ashamed you might be about any mistakes they make, you still actually *love* them, and are willing to let them make some mistakes so that they can grow from it, and are willing to help them to learn how to pick up from their mistakes.

So, why is the kid not going to school? What's the problem? Why does the kid think that the only solution to the problem is to not go to school? Is it the wrong school? Is the kid being bullied and has no way to solve it? Is the kid not interested in normal measures of success and needs to do something *real* for a change instead of more paperwork and homework and boring stuff that the kid'll never use in the real world? Does the kid not have any clue about what the kid wants to do in the future and therefore has no REASON to go to school?

There are so many things this could be, and the only way you're going to know which boundaries are important in this situation is by listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 12:07 PM

I agree SRS. When we choose to have kids, we must also choose to make decisions that put their needs at the top of the list in our lives. I'm in complete agreement with the idea that kids need to be near their father more than they need a more progressive climate to be raised in. I have several divorced friends who did the same thing, putting getting a partner in their life on the back burner until their kids were out of high school for the same reasons you mention (well, ok, none of them was in grad school, but all worked, etc etc).

However, I also have divorced friends raising kids who just keep going on in temporary serial monogamous relationships too, and in this regard, put themselves before their kids. I haven't seen any pattern that one choice has resulted in the kids turning out better than the other. I think if it was me, I'd choose as you have, but that is because to me it seems that life would be easier without the relationship complications. But I don't know that means that path is more right than involving one's self in relationships is as a single parent, so I try not to judge parenting ability on that sort of criteria.

My friends with the real problem child are very decent people, but not very good people. I know that sounds crazy, but it is true. These are responsible people in terms of finances, in terms of being polite and well educated, no conflicts with the law, upstanding in the community, professional middle class, that sort of thing. But they aren't very good people because of their dysfunctions. Sorta like the old sexist descriptions of girls in high school being either good girls or nice girls. They aren't very good at parenting. With easy kids, that isn't much of a problem. With more complex and difficult to raise kids, it's a disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 11:41 AM

I was watching a news program, might have been Frontline, might have been one of the other networks. It was a long and detailed story about the deterioration of two teenaged daughters after their parents divorce and the mother's move to a new state. Their unhappiness at being distant from their father was manifested in lots of rebellion and pushing boundaries and more and more risky behavior.

As much as I want to raise my kids in a better place than Texas, I had to recognize that being near their father was much more important than living in the better climate and nearer my family. I've said it before on other threads--you have to put your kids first if you want them to be happy and have as good a chance as possible to get the support they want when they need it. Trying to add a new partner to this is more than I'm willing to attempt, and as I said before in this thread, I'm not looking. But since I decided I'm not looking there are occasionally men turn up who express interest. So far none has gotten past my remark that I'm a single mom raising teenagers who works full time and is in graduate school.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 11:27 AM

My kids and I have always been extremely close, and so once the teen years hit, it was, in many ways, much harder for them to separate from me than it is for kids who aren't that tight with their parents. I've also been really, really lucky neither of my kids have been into drugs and the party life. They are into the straight edge punk scene, which I will always be grateful for, because there is a strong abstinence component to it. I did absolutely nothing to get my daughter (our eldest) into the scene, she found it all on her own.

That said, I also have friends whose middle child, a daughter, has been an absolute nightmare to raise. She drove without a license, smoked, drank, disappeared for days, ran away constantly, kept flunking in school, and recently gave birth to her first child at 16. And she has parents who are very decent people, but not very good people. Mom is a very invasive and critical mom (like the mom mentioned above) and dad is a largely absent dad who ironically works with kids just like his daughter, whom he did virtually nothing to help. Mom went to court, to the social worker & principal's office, called the police when the daughter was missing or out of line, etc.

Both parents smoke cigarettes, and mom smokes pot (even gets it from her oldest daughter). So while on the one hand, mom is very strict (as her own screwed up mother was), she also is extremely permissive about the things she herself does, like smoke cigarettes and pot, drinks and drives, that sort of thing. So truly, the acorn doesn't fall far from the tree, but sometimes it grows up to be much bigger and stronger than the parent tree!

My heart just aches for all of them. This one child has nearly single handedly destroyed this otherwise pretty good (though obviously dysfunctional) family. They all refused to get counseling, BTW. They just wanted their problem child "fixed" not to have to face their own dysfunctions and contributions to the problem child being who and what she is being similar to who and what the parents are like.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Hrothgar
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 11:40 PM

Drowning at birth fixes this.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Cluin
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 10:54 PM

My mom threw pots.
At my head.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: LadyJean
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 10:51 PM

I remember spending my teen years wishing my mother would find an interest in life besides me.
I was a good kid. I didn't drink, I didn't do drugs. I didn't want to do either. I painted pictures, badly, wrote poetry, read a lot, and kept largely to myself.
I endured a great deal of music I was too young to understand, because mother liked to go to concerts, and she didn't have anyone else to go with.
I also listened to all her worries, concerns, and problems. I spent a lot of time wishing she would find some friends her own age, quit trying to micromanage my life, let me learn to drive for the love of God! (I got my license 7 years ago.) and try my wings a little. No such luck.
Every year, we'd go down to the Three Rivers Arts Festival, and mother would watch the potters throw pots, and wish that she could. She finally took it up THE YEAR I STARTED COLLEGE. She could have started a lot sooner, and we both would have been happier.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 10:44 PM

Nonono-- there are FIVE options!

5. YOU live under the KIDS' roof with THEIR rules. And enjoy watching THEM pay all the bills!

Oddly, the kids seldome choose this option when it's offered.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 10:40 PM

Four Options:
1. The kids live under your roof with your rules.
2. You leave the kids the house and find a new place of your own.
3. Retro-active Abortion (if not legal in your state) vacation to another.
4. Place the kids up for adoption - offer a cash incentive

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Cluin
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 08:29 PM

From Paint Your Wagon:

Horton: Mr. Rumson, I swore I wouldn't tell anyone. I hope that means except my father and mother.
Ben Rumson: That means especially your father and mother.
Horton: But I've never kept anything from them before.
Ben Rumson: Well, it's time you started. Because when you do, a whole new world opens up.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 07:20 PM

My daughter used to be surprised when her friends enjoyed talking with me. I expect by now she has figured out that her friends' mothers are pretty interesting. :)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: *Laura*
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 07:11 PM

I just wanted to respond to what Brucie said in his last post. When I, I suppose 'suddenly', had to get used to it just being me and my mum, it helped a lot to have other (particularly male) people to chat to. Not at first, but after a while.
There are a few people now who before I didn't think of as anyone other than a 'neighbour' or 'family friend' - and more recently it has been good to talk to people that aren't my mum. Especially if they knew my dad.
So - yes, I agree it helps to have someone 'outside' to talk to.

from *a teenager*
xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 06:29 PM

I find that parents who listen and let the kids talk (that is the insane part, because a large part of what they have to say is absolute psychobabble), instead of talking at the kids (I was notorious for doing that) do better with most kids. Kids hate being lectured.

As to the putting the fear of god into them, I'm going to stick by that, and add that shame is a great guardian of boundaries when we aren't around. I've talked about this with both adults and kids. If you have a strong, healthy family with a lot of love, most kids won't go off the deep end for fear of you or their aunties or grampa finding out about the stupid thing they did. In my book, we call that deterrence. The child would be so ashamed of themselves if they were caught out.

It isn't at all about making kids be afraid of you. It is about making them honor the bonds, the family, the community, and not want you to be ashamed of them. Not every kid will get that, but many of them do. Fear of bringing shame on the family is a great deterrence. Traditional cultures often go too far with it, but a healthy dose of the fear of shaming or embarrassing the family is A Very Good Thing in my book, especially in the teen years, when high risk behavior is prevalent among so many kids.

There is no greater motivator for most teens than the fear of being embarrassed in front of their friends/peers. The second greatest motivator is the fear of bringing shame to the family. Honest. Most kids care very much about that #2. Not as much as #1, I'll grant you. But still. As parents of teens, you take what you can get.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 05:42 PM

There are many things to remember when dealing with a teenager...one is...if you say "NO" have you a good reason for saying it? If you haven't then please don't say it!
TRUST your children...show them trust even when you may feel that they will abuse it....they have to live with it as well as you! When they abuse your trust...deal with it in the best way you see possible.
You have to trust your partner when he/she goes out of your sight so why not trust your kid?. Please don't try to anticipate what your child might do...or you may make difficulties where they may not exist.
Most of all...show your children LOVE...whatever they do and support them through thick or thin......that's life!
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 04:47 PM

" talk to them, talk to them, talk to them, all the time. Explain what you feel, what you think and why "

I'm sure that's right for a lot of kids, and a lot of times. But I suspect that for others that may not actually be the right way.

Companionable silence has a place as well, and putting some things on the side till it's a better time to talk about them.

Basically till they are down, they come first - but putting them first sometimes means really getting up their nose, when it would be much more fun to just go along with their wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 04:32 PM

...or as my dad once said to me:

"I've taught you every thing I could possible teach you. Now that you are a young woman, I have nothing else to say. I'm not going to tell you how to lead your life. If you want advice, you'll have to ask for it. I will support your decisions. Just remember that you will have to live with the consequences of every decision you make."

Thanks, Dad. I really miss you and remember you as a wise and loving father.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenager problems
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 04:22 PM

Yes, and a big part of what works about that is the "nothing is secret from Dad" part. It's when the adult or the child creates a secrecy rule that something's usually not right.

~S~