Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Pseudolus
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 12:25 PM

John, I understand what you're trying to say but to read your post would make one believe that there is a right way and a wrong way to post. Like there are rigid rules that if you don't comply, you're considered rude. I've seen folks respond to a VERY long post but they picked on one sentence, out of context, consequently making NO sense at all (IMHO) but I wouldn't think it a very good idea to pick on their "style" or their "personality". I stick with arguing/agreeing with their points. I'm not saying you're wrong, in fact I appreciate (especially in a long thread) referring back to the poster you have a comment for or acknowledging a poster that you are about to agree with, but I don't necessarily consider it rude if it isn't done. jmho.

Frank

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: John Hardly
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 02:13 PM

PattyClink,

It's not a "me too" post if it's not acknowledged as such.

If it's acknowledged as "me too" the original poster is not being ignored (or "shit on" as I so hyperbolically referred to it earlier)>

If it is not acknowledged as a "me too" (meaning with reference back to the original point and the originator of that point it does just as Alex and Jon were talking about in prolonging the thread needlessly and furthermore, it is the moral equivalent of plagiarism. If you meant to bolster the point made by a fellow poster as either an emphasis to, or encouragement of that poster, the appropriate way to do so would be to ACKNOWLEDGE THE ORIGINAL POSTER! This isn't that hard to understand.--JH

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Burke
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 01:56 PM

Alex has correctly interpreted what I meant on 'me too.' DJH, I don't have time right now to explain why I thought GET A LIFE was a troll, but will later, if someone else doesn't beat me to it.

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:43 PM

Ah those ones Moushief, thanks for explaining. I tend to call those the "I'm having the last word" posts.

Jon

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:36 PM

PattyClink, I fear you've missed the point. It's not all "me too" posts that were being argued against, but rather ones that prolong the "life" of a thread that would be better off dead.

Alex

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:35 PM

DJH, Mousethief and gnu have mentioned some but the benefits of membership can be found in this part of the FAQ. The comment about Hearme is redundant.

pattyClink, I think there are times when a number of us do feel the need to re-enforce or voice support to a comment and I don't think that is being rude. The problem is of course that if everyone who thought "me-too" posted just that we would have an awful lot of extraneous posts. I think, in general, it is a habit best avoided.

Jon

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:31 PM

Maybe one of the underlying things here is simply that people are not prepared for the real community nature of the Mudcat when first arriving-- I mean, if we acknowledge that Mudcat is special when viewed in relation to other sites, boards, etc., then we would have to notice that it would be impossible to arrive understanding how it works, how to get along... it goes beyond manners, which differ somewhat from place to place and generation to generation, or among different media... it's partly about culture, which is not the same as manners. Sometimes I see us judging manners when what is at work is culture.

And sometimes I see us judging behavior as permanent, intentioned, and thought out with calm deliberation, when it is people just doing the best they can at the point in time at which we view them.

I am not saying this right. I'll try again.

Every day, all we can really see is a slice of who each person posting is on THAT DAY in their life. The friends I have made here, above evey other quality I value, expect this. They welcome whoever I am, however I am, trusting that I move forward as a person; they want the same from me.

It is impossible to be adequately prepared for the overwhelmingly welcoming nature of most of the people here brought together the way Max has made Mudcat. So, for instance, if you aren't accustomed to being made so welcome, it might be a long time before it occurred to you that simply giving yourself a name (and going beyond that to join and open the door to PM's) would result in being adopted into a new tribe. You would not realize, first encountering the tribe, that is has a culture you will want to adopt, or be adopted into. You are just going from your own culture at first.

I think we tend to forget that once we have been adopted in. I think it's very easy, in the good feelings of community, to forget that becoming part of Mudcat is a continuum and that people are not the same old Joe or Jane, once they've been here ahile, as they were the day they arrived. I mean, in any setting, life develops people... and Mudcat ESPECIALLY does.

I have gotten correspondences underway with people who had been real difficult community members... people who flamed, people who trolled, people with unmet needs or undeveloped social skills... people who were stuck in a behavior and blamed for it instead of getting a relaxed hand with it.... and this is a part of what they have said, after awhile... "I just never knew a community could be like THIS." And I have had people give me a hand that way.

I never knew it could be like this, either. Think back... did you?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: pattyClink
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:05 PM

About the "rudeness" of me-too type posts: Geez, sorry! When I do this is it is A. well-intentioned and B. a habit developed from other message boards where you want to be sure you reply to the original poster, and don't link to another reply-er by mistake.

I will try to not do it again, but again, I don't think it is rude. When one polls a group with a question, sometimes there is value in several people responding in essentially the same way, it reinforces that answer. But if you would rather there never be an extraneous post, message received.

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: CamiSu
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:03 PM

gnu & Burke,

I would say that there IS a difference between you and the anonymous guests, in that everything you post is yours, and identifiably so. We may not know your real names, but you are consistently YOU, and since we mostly know each other only by our postings our "real" names don't particularly matter.

I must admit that I do not always say some of the things I think, because they are probably somewhat personally unkind and as I was growing up I learned "If you can't say something nice..." But if I don't agree with a person I feel free to say so, and I'll either learn something new, change the other person's mind a bit, or agree to disagree. But I must admit, that good manners go a long way with me, and while I have found some questionable manners from people who do sign some sort of name, it is more often there from people who persistently remain "guest".

All in all, I find this place refreshing and caring, probably as I would find the people here in 3D. And the trolls and flamers most likely would not come to our gatherings...

And I was probably not creative enough to think of a nickname..

CamiSu

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: gnu
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:59 AM

DJH - I believe you can find the benefits on the main page... personal messages, thread tracing.... but I just like being a member of a group which I admire. They are kind, helpful, knowledgible, etc ad infinitum.

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:57 AM

The problem is that DJH is not the only person who can type "DJH" in the guest name box. Anybody can type "DJH" there, and thus put words in DJH's mouth that maybe DJH doesn't believe.

When you join, however, only YOU can use your handle, so we know that everything that is said under the name "gnu" was written by our friend in New Brunswick.

Alex

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: GUEST,DJH
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:51 AM

What other benifits?

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:48 AM

I wish Max would write code that *required* some entry after the word 'guest', just to avoid the problem djh notes. I have NO problem with gnu's solution...be Rumplestiltskin if you wish...just be someone consistently, (preferably a member, so you you can get private messages and see the other services....but if you are Joe Schmoe in thread 'X', be Joe Schmoe in thread 'Y')...there can be continuity and understanding developed between people whether or not they know each other's real names, but disembodied comments make most regulars uneasy.

awww, to hell with it, YOU know the reasoning...and I am tired of begging folks to BE reasonable.

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:34 AM

If someone is a member and uses a moniker so that it is protecting who they really are, well I guess that is their choice.
If someone uses and moniker or their real name but periodically posts as GUEST to get a confrontational point across, well I guess that is their choice too.
Personally I like to keep my life uncomplicated. It is much easier to show up just as I am because eventually people will figure me out anyway so I might as well be myself now and not waste my time and energy on hiding.
Besides, I get so much more out of life when I really show up, even through confrontations and dumb comments I wish I never posted.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: GUEST,djh
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:21 AM

I am the Guest from a few posts back . I rarely think or bother to fill that field in. It aint about anonimity, it is just that I am not in the habit. I always have used it on the rare occasion when I start a thread.
Someone pointed out The get a life thread as a flame,so I went and read it. The original post seemed a valid opinion and not very "trollish". I like slang and have a friend who publishes English text books and VERY annoyingly makes a habit of correcting my grammar, when I am fully aware I aint practicing no good grammar. The littany of hostile insulting shots and "Why don't you leave then." posts seemed far more Flamish than the first post, beyond the title, which seems to be the only 3 words anyone responded to.
Anyhow, since it seems to inspire distrust I will tag all my posts when I stop by for now on. - take care DJH

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Spud Murphy
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:57 AM

In retrospect: It used to be a common saying that "an expert is someone who is ninety miles from home."

I think that in the same vein and with changing times, the saying can now be safely made that "an expert is someone who has made 90 posts on one or more 'threads'."

George MacClanahan

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:34 AM

I have nothing against people using handles, guest ones or member ones as long as there is consistency.

The biggest problem I have is the knowledge that some of these guests who flame have been around here a long while (they have to have been to make certain comments, know who to target, etc) and are probably members (in fact there is one well known case of a member) abusing the system to make remarks that they wouldn't have the guts to normally and this does leave a nasty taste.

I would suspect that this is why guests who make controversial statements can be treated in manners ranging from suspiscion to outright hostility.

Jon

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:06 AM

I like the term Guest, and always hope that once over the threshold they ARE OURS FOR LIFE, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
I thought that it was (thanks to Max) an elegant way of dealing with what was at one time a very, very serious problem that threatened to kill this place completely. It also requires the regulars to be patient, and hints to the guests that they might try and act like guests. Of course some people don't respond to these kinds of signals, but what can you do.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Burke
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:05 AM

I think John is objecting to people like gnu & me who do not sign our posts & use fake names in our handles. I'm not going to go into my reasons for doing it, but I will point out that unless there is a possibility of actually meeting a person it makes no difference if I use the name Burke or my legal name. I may have had illusions of not having to deal with consequences of what I say here in real life, but I cannot discuss the things I really care about without beginning to give clues as to my identity to those who may actually know me. While I am trying to sheild myself to a certain degree, the fact is that I have met Susan & when I have exchanged PM's I have signed my name. I'm planning to go to Susan's gathering. I'll be at Old Songs & if there's a Mudcat gathering I have 2 choices. I can skip the gathering & preserve my anonymity or I can go & meet everyone. Even if I still just say I'm Hi, I'm Burke I'll still be bearing the consequences of whatever I may have said here.

John, from your earlier post, I think I know why this pseudo anonymousnous bothers you. I am more familiar with that situation than I'll discuss here. I just want you to know that the people who did & still do come in for the most bile have had the opportunity to meet in the flesh & do know who it is.

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 09:37 AM

gnu, I don't think anyone here means to question the kind of anonymity you are talking about-- but rather, people who give no moniker at all and are simply Guest. And, further, I think, Guests who are invited nicely to take a name and then persistently don't, even though it is clearly the normal thing here to use some name.

Still this is a choice people have; we can opt to respond to the thoughts expressed instead of to the personality expressing them.

~S~

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: gnu
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 07:50 AM

I don't sign my name because I am paranoid about being in such a venue for the first time - never been in a forum or chat room or anything like it before. I've heard and read about internet horror stories which, of course, may be urban myths. However, given the choice, I prefer to remain anonymous, especially when there are so many anon's' in this forum and since non-members can post anonymously. If the rules change to incorporate some kind of certification of membership and security system, I'd be happy to sign my name. Until then, I'll follow the lead of so many others before me who obviously must have good reason for anonymity.

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: John P
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 07:33 AM

Guest, the fact that a post comes from a guest doesn't bother me at all. I take each post on it's own merits. What does bother me is people -- guests or members -- who post strong opinions or judgements without signing their names. Actually, almost any anonymous post bugs me. What's the point of speaking up if no one knows who you are? Why don't you sign your name?

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 07:29 PM

Some people have a distinct 'self-image' and want to appear that way to others....But, they may also have aspects of their personality that they realize doesn't fit that image and, sometimes, opinions that are out of character.....

Now, in person it is not easy for many to just SAY something to a member of their group which may be inflammatory and critical. How often have you wished you could tell someone you basically liked and got along with that they were all wet on subject 'X'?...Some do, but it can affect a relationship or worse...most of us stifle critical remarks when we have to face the person....but this is different!.. With a little effort, you can gripe about something and still preserve your image for other times.

....the trouble is, it can get to be addictive to freely rail against what you feel to be the stupidities of others and vent your pet peeves without 'you' being linked to it.

People used to scribble graffiti, or write letters to the editor, or call radio talk shows...but this internet/WWW thing has REALLY allowed anonymous commentary to take off, and most of us have had only 1-4 or 5 years to come to terms with the rules and the INTERNAL needs....and some never will!

I reply on some threads, but I am 'passing' on more & more. I am really working on deciding which of my opinions NEED to be visited on others, and how they might best be presented to have any chance of being heard and respected....One thing is sure, yelling and sniping seldom help!

I am reminded of an OLD Peanuts comic strip,,,Lucy is standing in front of her younger brother, Linus....

"Change your mind!", she yells.
"CHANGE YOUR MIND, I SAY!"
"I DEMAND THAT YOU CHANGE YOUR MIND".....
...in the last panel, she is walking away grumpily, musing..." I wonder why it's so hard to get people to change their minds these days?"

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 07:19 PM

Yeah, Burke. What really bugs me is when an obnoxious thread is about to drop off the message page, and someone comes in late and just has to add their .02, and it's often something somebody else has already said or "I agree with so-and-so." I don't dispute their right to say what they want, but it still bugs me. (This may be the "last word syndrome."

I think some folks just adopt a persona to flame. I honestly believe that if you pretend to be a certain way long enough, you stand a good chance of becoming that way. I think most folks see what's down the path they're on and turn around. Some don't.

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Burke
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 06:51 PM

I was a member of an e-mail discussion forum that had a couple of really bad actors. One I'd describe as a complete troll. He never initiated or participated in a discussion without somehow including a piece of bait. Initially he trolled the whole group, taking an extreme stand on an issue he later admitted he didn't care a lot about. He soon found one very easy target & then phrased his statements to incite flames from that direction. I never understood his motivation, but he was never disappointed, either. I did once have a discussion with someone acquainted with the troll. I was told that in person he also tended to try to get a rise out of others by the way he said things. In pre-net days I guess we'd have called him a tease. The main difference between him & some of the trolls here, is that he did have a consistent name & I did learn to read his messages for the valuable parts & ignored the rest.

Unfortunately the target of our troll was also a big flamer in general. Many messages were flamed for little or no reason. There were other generally well behaved sorts who would from time to time post a really witty message that seemed to be for no other purpose than getting yet another rise from the voracious barracuda. They usually got both the laugh from the general group & the fire from the target.

Much later I spent a couple of hours talking to someone from the group who has a paranoid relative. He outlined for me the indications that this most troublesome member of our e-mail group was possibly close to certifiably paranoid. Much as I was angered by what had happened to our 'friendly' 'happy' group, in looking back I could see how messages like those I've mentioned & some of mine own, helped to feed an already existing bad state. I had, in fact, gotten a fair amount of positive (You tell 'em) feedback about my contribution to the mess. The fact is that after a while, in reaction to frequent provocation, we were out to get her. There had been many who said just ignore it, but I & others could or would not.

All of this is a long way of saying what Bonnie said at the start No matter where you go you will find troubled folks. Not much you can do about that but follow the 'Golden Mudcat Rule' of not responding to their postings and hope that eventually these folks will realize they have a problem and will seek some help. Of course the difficulty is in actually doing this. It is really hard to walk away. I do laugh at the wit these trolls evoke. If someone is saying something really hateful, I do what to see others object. Just not everyone. Occasionally I will put my $.02 in, but try to avoid the general din. I do feel solidarity with those who are setting whoever it is straight.

Maybe a question to ask ourselves is 'Why, oh why, do I feel the need to have my say here? Am I really doing some good with this contribution?' It seems to me some other groups are better about the situation where one person can say, 'This is a troll, ignore it,' & have it ignored. It seems like here one will say, 'This is a troll' & a dozen others will come in with, 'X, you are so right, it sure is a troll, maybe we should ignore it.' Then the insults & jokes start and the thread keeps coming up to the top. GET A LIFE is a good example. I read enough to see what was up & stopped. Don't know what's keeping it alive but if it had died over the weekend as it should have, most of us who took the weekend off would have missed it completely.

Remember, the only person you can control is yourself.

Burke, Been there, done that. Want to see my scratches?

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 02:39 PM

I think most folks have been nice. I ussually only go to music related posts and there aint no problems there. It is in the BS posts that people are rude, Wittier than thou-AKA smug and pompous, or suspicious.When I have posted a question most folks ,especially MMario, have been gracious and helpful.

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 02:31 PM

Not all members are instantaneously suspicious of Guests. I take a post as I find it, or try to.

~S~

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 02:08 PM

Not saying it's not a problem, Guest. But we have been the victims (collectively) of 1,001 anonymous guests starting and/or fanning horrific flame wars. Anonymity appears to give certain people (at least in their own minds) a license to do things and say things they would never say if their identity were known.

Thus, guests that zoom in and say critical things are treated pretty roughly.

If you don't want to be lumped into that group, it's easy enough to sign up and not be a guest any more. So easy, in fact, that members are very suspicious of anybody who won't.

Alex

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 02:04 PM

Speaking for Guests, I have had more Mudcatters be snide and insulting towards me than other guests.

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Hollowfox
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 01:39 PM

Two thoughts came to mind while reading this thread. First was the image of a toddler slamming a door over and over. Toddlers love to do this; they're delighted that someone as small as they are can, with such little effort, move something so big and make so much noise. Second, the often repeated rationalization for misbehaving in children (true or not, I can't say) that negative attention (punishment) is preferable to no attention (being ignored). These thoughts may give insite regarding flamers, perhaps not.

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 12:38 PM

Home, like Cheers, is where "everybody knows your name." Nobody is anonymous at home. Why should this place feel like home to the anonymous? You're asking for more than mere mortal man can give.

Alex

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Chip2447
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 12:32 PM

Bernard, you beat me to it. Some one who creates a computer virus is just like someone who tips over headstones at a cemetary, or an anonymous, faceless flaming troll. From a layman's point of view they participate in this behavior because they can. The repercussions are virtually non existent. I tend to agree that it's a power trip, about feeding an ego. IMHO, ignoring a troll tends to send them packing, in search of easier prey... Thanks to everyone for the insights.

Chip2447

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Apr 01 - 10:47 AM

There's an obvious distinction to be made between anonymous posts and flames, alluded to only in passing in this thread, that unfortunately, some posters are unable or unwilling to acknowledge. To have one's head virtually torn off for stating an inocuous thought/opinion/observation is an interesting yet somewhat disheartening phenomenon to observe. It is very difficult to imagine the same people sitting themselves down in an empty seat next to an anonymous person on the tram, and responding with a string of invectives to an offer of "Nice day, what?" - but here in this forum this comparison seems to on occasion lack credibility.

Inappropriate responses to neutral stimuli are somewhat understandable if one considers the degree of traumatization some people have suffered as the victims of a flame, especially if their initial reactions were aimed at trying to ascertain the rationale behind an attack for which no rationale exists.

toadfrog alluded to a certain degree of freedom afforded by anonymity. Spot on, but the freedom afforded an anonymous poster is a two way street. As it is freedom from ostracism for stating views unpopular to the herd mentality, so it is also freedom from inclusion for echoing opinions widely regarded and held in high esteem. Either set of circumstances by itself is likely to exert undue influence on one's subsequent deliberations, a fate the anonymous poster avoids handily by dispensing with the dilemma altogether.

Insofar as the general consensus favoring a concerted effort to ignore all posts and opinions by someone who refuses to attach a "handle" by which his or her fellow readers may grab hold...well, that just makes this place seem all the more like home....

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Bernard
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 08:17 PM

To me it seems that the mentality of flamers is akin to those who dream up computer viruses.

Admittedly the virus originators have more power to wreak havok, and they do not necessarily see the results of their efforts, but they intend to hinder, not help, which is where they find their pleasure.

We meet people like this every day, and a large percentage of them are behind the wheel of a car at the time. It can be difficult to ignore them!!

Live and let live. Allowing them to get to you means they win!

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 06:51 PM

There are a couple of things I think about this issue.

1. I don't find commuication here at Mudcat any more messed up, overall, than it is IRL. To me this says Mudcat is not such a bad place.

2. There are fewer people here at Mudcat, in this large community, who I cannot deal with (effectively, functionally, and mutually productively) than there are in the small community in which I move, IRL. To me this says Mudcat is a pretty good place.

3. I DO find communication here is often more effective, functional, and mutually productive than it usually is IRL. The depth, frequency, and breadth of high-level communication here is actually amazing. To me this says Mudcat is a REALLY good place.

4. I run across more people trying to intentionally grow and develop as a human being, here at Mudcat, than I run into IRL, although I expect it equally in both settings. Part of this reality is that in doing this, those so engaged encourage and help and support others similarly engaged. To me this says that Mudcat is a special place.

5. ALthough I often fall short of implementing what I know works, what I know works is to affirm what is good, whether large or small, and especially if it is a step someone is taking in a positive direction... especially here at Mudcat.

6. I know through a long process of dedicated effort in a number of settings, personal and professional, that a smidge of attention placed accurately on a good thing trying to happen has a MUCH, MUCH greater total effect on the wellbeing of all that is occurring than does even the most informed, accurate, caring criticsm.

What I find to affirm in this thread is that we all (who are posting) seem to care about our Mudcat community, want it to function well, and that there are a large number of smart people who think about it.

What I think is worth acting upon is this-- that it is our own responses to whatever we find hard to encounter, that we can see with some accuracy, that we can hope to understand, that we can work on if we choose, and that we can be responsible about. The effort to make sense out of others' behaviors that, at heart, do not make sense, will bring us back to that each time we try to think about it. The problem we can address is never "That Guy Over There." The problem we can address is always, "How do I respond this time to what I perceive about That Guy Over There?"

I like to look at the potentially-long moments that flash by so fast. Here is one, and we can let it flash by or we can modify our awareness and see into it. Here is what I see when I do that... Whatever "That Guy Over There" has just done, each time, is done.... it's OVER. We cannot affect it; it is done. What we can do, each time, hasn't happened yet. And this makes a big, powerful opportunity, limited only by our flexibility and ingenuity. Our moment to respond is always before us, a blank slate awaiting our wisdom.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: John Routledge
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 04:45 PM

So succinct Peter T. Wish I could be so precise. Cheers GB

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Peter T.
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 03:51 PM

Another two cents. Some flamers here are people who believe that the world is fundamentally driven by self-interest and power; and that anyone who says or acts differently is either a hypocrite or a fool. It is a sort of pseudo-Nietzschean approach: only conflict really brings out the truth that we are really at war with one another. They proceed to try and create conflict, so that at the end of the day they can say: "See, your wimpy little masks of sweetness are off, and you are revealed to be a nasty bastard like me, but at least I admit it." It is a way of being superior. It is usually brought on by expressions of concern, prayer circles, and so on -- the flamer has to wreck these overt threats to his world view. More fundamentally, any expression of community like the Mudcat is a threat, and has to be unmasked as a potentially seething mass of mutual hypocrisy. It is all very childish and tedious.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: CamiSu
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 02:54 PM

I, having read this entire thread and had, and consequently lost, several responses and thoughts on the subject, would offer:

These forums are a wonderful place to speak, and usually be heard. (I guess it never occurred to me to read only the last post or two and respond to those. That's too much like coming in onthe end of a conversation and saying something that was said in the first two minutes of the conversation. While it might be, in John's words like shitting on the head of the person who said it, it also points up your own either rudness or unintelligence-- no matter how well thought out the posting.)

BUT, that said, when you post, it will show up in its entirety and no one can step on your lines or interrupt you or overtly ignore you. That feature has given me the courage to say some things I might just quietly THINK in a 3D group of people. (Yes, I am a bit shy when I feel I am not up to the quality of thought or ability in a group. Sorry.)

Perhaps flamers feel that they can say what they wish here, and people will at least have to START to read it. If they spoke that way in a #D group of us we might likely show them the door. I usually don't react, but then I'm not the one being flamed, (and when I was, my daughter stood up for me before I could react. Again it was a GUEST posting)

I must admit I have been called enough names in my life (heck, before I got out of High School!) to never wish it on someone else, so I can't quite get into a flamer's skin, but these are my thoughts.

BTW Liz, glad to see you up and posting! (I've not been around much, except to check in on Barry...)

CamiSu

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Morticia
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 02:11 PM

I had wondered if this thread would be flamed, interesting that it hasn't, don't you think? Are we getting too close for comfort, or do the people we think of as flamers not see themselves in that light? No man is wicked in his own eyes, sort of thing?
Liz, my poor memory is becoming both famous and an embarrassment.

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 12:50 PM

Oh, and Morty? You ARE turning into a TOG, go and apply for your 'Do I come here often' sweatshirt immediately!!!

LTS *BG*

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 12:48 PM

Better to have your say, than to feel you have stood by silently, while the rape continues.

This is also very sensible. Sometimes you have to say something or else be steamrollered into behaving the way the flamer wants. For flamer read bully. If we did not stand up to those who bully, then I personally would be in a rubber room right now, trying to drool out of both sides of my mouth at once, and playing with coloured string.

A flamer is calling for attention. If you give flame back, you are playing into their hands. If you take the flamer aside and make a private (PM) comment, then you get your point over without making a public show, which would then give the flamer more ammunition to flame in public....... see how the circles goes?

The problem is seeing the difference between thought out argument, flip comment (these are usually mine... ) by someone who doesn't understand what the argument/discussion is about and contradiction just for it's own sake. It's only by learning more about those involved that we can differentiate between the argument, the flippant and the awkward sod. And the only way to learn more about those involved is to communicate with them. Morty has the right idea, trying to understand these flamers, the same way that I would try to understand the bully at work. It doesn't automatically follow that we won't be flamed, or tempted to make a sharp retort back, but hopefully we can understand the psyche behind the flame and learn to deal with it sympathetically, or to ignore it with equinimity.

LTS

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 10:17 AM

JH, I agree with what you said, but also the same thing can happen regardless of whether it's a newcomer or a member who's been around for a while. They expect some sort of reaction or acknowledgement they don't get, and then attempt to get any sort of acknowledgment, even negative.

Kendall quoted "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing."

Well, except for terrorism, where the aim is to get the biggest reaction possible with the least amount of work. Or in other words, it's a way for a person or group with very little power to make a huge impact. With true terrorism, the victims aren't the true targets. What terrorists hope to accomplish is to disrupt the community - to make them afraid so they behave in ways they normally wouldn't. Authorities have to do something to keep victims from being hurt, but they also work very hard to keep the fear reaction and changes in behavior to a minimum.

Flames can be a sort of an attempt at mental terrorism...more like annoyance-ism. Take the physical danger out of the equation, and what do we have left? We have only the community disruption to worry (or not worry) about.

John P - I was there. There seems to be an overwhelming need to defend people, even when they'd like it if you wouldn't. It requires an act of self-control to not respond, which people in cyberspace are unwilling to understand or unable to accomplish. (Just ask me - I used to routinely shoot my mouth off in those newsgroups and I'm just getting to the point where I can walk away in Mudcat, or at least discuss and not react.)

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: sophocleese
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 10:09 AM

I think this is interesting. I 'd like to add that as I read down the thread there were a couple of times when I felt like flaming it. The origingal question was good and there have been many good answers. The ones that made me want to flame are the ones that self-congratulate the poster on his maturity as opposed to the presumed maturity of the flamer. As an iconoclastic canadian I have a great desire to puncture pomposity and self-adoration.

The logic for replying to flamers seems a little odd and one-sided. Given that it is possible to send personal messages of support to those who are attacked in a flame there is no need to respond to the flamer to show support. Being rude to those who are rude does nothing to improve the forum and merely allows the replier to vent while abusing the possibly frustrated and upset flamer for venting him/herself. Sometimes the evidenced desire of responders to prove superior mental capacity and emotional development reminds me of a 13 year old friend teasing her younger sister by jumping up and down yelling "Sister's Immature! Sister's Immature!"

The question of why people persistently respond to flamers is also interesting. Do they get a charge out of playing victim? Do they like the feel of their blood boiling in outrage, like people only reading about the gunshots and murders and ignoring beautiful babies and cheerful everyday life? Clearly I am better and more mature than they are as I don't respond to flamers just as they are clearly more mature than the flamers. Umm?

As you might guess I dislike rudeness from anybody, flamer or not. I'm not prissy I just think that after every flame war more of the fun of Mudcat has been lost. My pleasure in reading threads disintegrates as the degree to which people feel free to indulge wit and intelligence is hampered by angry self-aggrandizing first-thought-but-no-second thought posting.

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: John Hardly
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 09:27 AM

Bonnie,

You're an angel!

That's just what I meant--I just think it's more avoidable here. Most of the double posts reflect a laziness that has people saving time by only reading the last post of a thread--I say if you don't have the time to read the whole thread than you damn well might as well ignore the whole thread rather than contribute rudeness to it.

It also brings me back to one of my original observations. In the 3D world, the ones who become the flamers of the cyberworld have a physical personaltiy that may make being ignored less likely. Being ignored here is a relatively new experience.

Oh...did you say something?*BG*--JH

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 09:12 AM

John, I get what you are saying. See, how considerate I am responding to your posting.

:)

Just a thought......ever been in a 3 D conversation with a group of people and you states an opinion but no one seems to acknowledge what you said. Then someone else pipes up with the same thought, but words it differently or maybe even exactly the same as what you said, and everyone turns to acknowlege that person. I guess it is rude, but it is also human nature. People seem to have a difficult time listening. I figure 2 D reading of postings is the equivalent to 3 D listening which at the best of times isn't the greatest.

Ever notice in 3 D few people really, really listen to you. I've notice in postings when someone really reads what I have written and responds to elaborate or discuss my thoughts posted, I think to myself "Oh my goodness, someone took the time to really understood what I wrote". At that moment I think to myself how good it feels and in return I try harder to do the same for others.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: John Hardly
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 08:42 AM

Bonnie,

I wish we all shared your mental health![big smile]. Actually, what you describe is what I referred to as passive ignoring, and if the ones who misinterpret it understood that everyone is ignored in that way to some extent, they may be less inclined to become flame throwers.

As to the posting of duplicate information without acknowledgement--that's just rude. Understanding the limits of communication inherent in forums, that's the 2D equivalent of the 3D stepping between 2 conversing people and keeping your back turned to one of them.

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: John P
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 08:32 AM

I was, for years, the regular target of a flamer on the newsgroups. For some reason she had it in for me and lost no opportunity to bash me in whatever way she could. I tried to ignore her as much as possible, but was often drawn into discussions that she was part of. There were two reasons that I would respond sometimes:

1) She would often attack my honesty, the integrity and quality of my music, or the honor of my friends. Since honesty and integrity are important to me, and to the folk community in general, I sometimes felt the need to defend myself. Letting lies go unanswered means that some other person might read them and believe them. Answering her usually made it quickly obvious to all that she was crazy.

2) One of the ways that flamers get their jollies is to take over existing threads and, by the outrageous nature of their comments, change the subject matter in subtle or not-so-sublte ways to be about themselves, their target, or some pet peeve/enthusiasm. I spent a lot of time dropping out of threads I was interested in when my attack dog would show up, but then I realized that she was silencing me. It is sometimes possible to have a discussion around the flamer, but when everyone else in the thread goes off on the flamer's tangent, you either have to go along and try to post as intelligently as possible, or be silenced.

I agree that non-response is the best response to general flames that don't attack an individual or interrupt an existing discussion. And even then it's often the best response

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 08:13 AM

John maybe some postings are acknowledged silently. Often I read a posting and gain great insight from it but that does not mean I will respond to it. I acknowledge it silently.
If I find postings are repeating the opinion of previous posters I just figure, mmmmmm, more folks have those very same thoughts.
Sometimes I read a thread but I must admit my comprehension can be weak at the best of times and I have overlooked the fact that what I wanted to say has already been said and I wind up posting an opinion already stated. Oooops, guess that means I'm human.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: gnu
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 08:03 AM

Spaw said... Now I tell you, I will play the quiet game starting now for a month again....OK? I'm also going to make a list of the people I think cannot do it (now) and I'll bet that a month from now my list is accurate! Wanna'play???

Rules, please... eg, members, too ? I can think of a recent incident where a member deliberately posted something which was obviously inane and only meant to provoke a response.

Subject: RE: Non-music....Why,oh why, oh why?
From: John Hardly
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 07:31 AM

"What I think I'm asking is,are we non-people to flamers/trolls therefore what's said can't matter ( in which case why bother?)...or have we ( by which I mean any forum) assumed super-status and become the important reality in their lives..therefore would the normal instinct not be to want to be a constructive part of this forum?"

Here's my cop-out answer. (We're) both. The anonymity they feel foisted upon them, they can't help but want to retaliate and express the degree to which they think (wish) us anonymous. Of course they'd RATHER be accepted--they just don't know how that would express itself (for instance, I think they lack the understanding of just HOW MUCH EVERYONE'S POSTS ARE IGNORED)

I do think ignoring their posts is the best recourse though it is interesting that in a LARGE forum like this one, it also has a reinforcing effect. Maybe I should say that, if my initial theory holds water, it's the ignoring of their posts that began the behavior in the first place.

Additionally, don't forget that there are two very distinct types of "ignoring" that go on here regularly. There is the PASSIVE type that is just the lack of acknowlegement of posts that don't interest us (major cause--long posts like this!).

Then there is the real flame producing--ACTIVE IGNORING, caused by the excessive amount of people here who post without reading through the previous posts to see if the point they wish to make has already BEEN made. When THEY post they might as well just shit on the head of the poster with the original thought (if they don't AKNOWLEDGE THE PREVIOUS POST!!).

In any group it is just as hard to be accepting of new blood as it is to break into the established group.


Again, just my observation. --JH