BS: US personal names

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 05:11 PM

Correction:

What I meant to say that if my theory is correct, given the popularity of "James Bond double 007, it's interesting that "James" wasn't used as a source for multiplicity of male and female names.
{Of the top of my head I can think of the name "Jamesetta", and "Jamie" {both female} but not others.

Obviously, "Sean" would be used as a base for "Shawn" names...

:O)

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 05:06 PM

Alice,

Thanks for posting that list. It makes interesting reading, but I suspect that list doesn't pertain to African Americans.

Just a few comments about that lists: The names "Brianna" and "Brittany" were also big in the 1990s or so among African Americans, but I think their popularity has faded.

One African American naming tradition is the first letter conformity among family members. I have a nephew whose pre-teen and teenage daughters are named "Brittany" and Brianna". His sons also have "B" names.

****

There's been little mention yet about the role that popular celebrities and television characters play in personal naming traditions.

I believe that I mentioned my theory about the popularity in African American communities of Sean Connery's double 007 role. It's interesting that the name "Sean" and not the name "James" or "James Bond" became the name that was used as a base for so many Shawn names...{I think this goes back to my belief that there is something about the "sh" sound that we [African Americans] like...

****

Another celebrity name that haa been used by African American [and other?] males & females is "Jordan"- from Michael Jordan {Michael is too "regular", but it appears that "Jordan" is getting played out because it's getting too much play {being used too often}.


Azizi

btw: I'm slated to teach a Community College continuing ed course this fall on African American naming traditions. This thread will be included in the class's suggested reading list.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 04:47 PM

Dazbo,

I agree with you that contemporary African American names are difficult to pronounce-particularly if a person tries to use the English vowel sounds instead of the ah, a, ee, oh, oo, sounds that Spanish, Italian, Arabic, KiSwahili and some other languages use. Also after awhile, you learn that most of these names adher to a fromulaic pattern that dictates {or at least strongly suggest} which syllable receives the accent.

That said, I goofed on the pronunciation of the name "Deabalik" {which I have never heard or seen before-which is no excuse}.

Taht name is pronounced "dee-AH-bah-leek" The "AH" is only slightly accented, that syllable flowing into the syllables that follow it.

I admit that I'm not fond of this particular name. I "hear" your point that the name "Diabalik" is similar to the word "diabolical". However I'm not sure that these children will make that connection {I didn't until you mentioned it}.

The male {Arabic} name "Malik" and its female form "Malika" have been very widely used among African Americans since the early 1970s. You will note that the name "Deabalik" rhymes with "Malik".

Many contemporary African American children in my area and I suspect throughout the USA are familiar with many male & female names starting with "Dee". Given this context, and the large number of other name created by rhyming, I think that they may consider "Deabalik" just another name.

And besides, in my opinion, the personality and charisma {or lack of charisma} of the "owner" of any name will play a large part in determining if people disrespect that name.

I repeat my view that it seems to me that African Americans are much more accepting of "differnt names" and maybe that acceptance is growing among that age group and other African Americans {and perhaps also other races/ethnicities}.

In the 1980s or so, some middle class Black people had a term for these names-we called them "ghetto" name. And that wasn't a compliment.

I suspect that there are alot of older Black Americans who are still making fun of these "made up" names.



Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Alice
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 04:46 PM

Here is an interesting site of baby names that were the most popular in the US by decade since the 1880's. The lists were compiled by the US Social Security Administration.
http://www.thenewparentsguide.com/most-popular-baby-names.htm

Top Ten Boy's and Girl's Names in the 1880's, United States
        
Boy's 1.  John
Girl's 1.  Mary
2.  William        
2.  Anna
3.  Charles        
3.  Elizabeth
4.  George        
4.  Margaret
5.  James        
5.  Minnie
6.  Joseph        
6.  Emma
7.  Frank        
7.  Martha
8.  Henry        
8.  Alice
9.  Thomas        
9.  Marie
10.  Harry        
10.  Sarah

Top Ten Boy's and Girl's Names in the 1990's, United States
Boy's 1.  Michael        
Girl's 1.  Ashley
2.  Christopher        
2.  Jessica
3.  Matthew        
3.  Sarah
4.  Joshua        
4.  Brittany
5.  Jacob        
5.  Emily
6.  Nicholas        
6.  Samantha
7.  Andrew        
7.  Amanda
8.  Daniel        
8.  Katherine
9.  Tyler        
9.  Megan
10.  Brandon        
10.  Brianna

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Alice
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 04:11 PM

Dazbo, Heather was not a common US name until "nature" names became popular. It reminds me of the family of Keeping Up Appearances... Rose, Hyacinth, etc. Flower, plant, animal, "nature" names became popular in the US during the hippie revolution. One neighbor I had rebelled against her parents by legally changing her name, Kathy, to Topaz.

I just watched a rerun of the movie "Flash From the Past" last night. The character who has emerged from being raised all his life in a fallout shelter, educated in his parent's 1950's culture, emerges and meets a woman whose name is Heather... "My, I don't think I've ever heard that name before." (big laugh)

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 10:44 AM

Heather is hardly a "made up" name or rebelling. One of my aunts is called Heather and must be well into her late 60 or early 70's by now and was quite common over here.

Of course there was also Rolan Bolan - Marc's son, and Zowie Bowie - David's son. Am I right in thinking that many of these children of celbrities with names like this have converted to 'normal' names.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Alice
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 09:06 AM

I first noticed the new "made up" names for babies as an action of my peers in the 60's and 70's (hippies for the most part) rebelling against the "establishment". They started naming their kids names such as Heather, Sage, Sunshine, Hunter... and then there is Frank Zappa and his choices, Moon Unit and Dweezle.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 08:36 AM

Deabalik {dee-ah-BAH-leek} - I (potentially*) feel sorry for this guy sounds too much like Diabolic for him not to get a life-time of the mickey being taken out of him.

*Assuming US kids have just as much a cruel, name-calling streak as they do over here.

The main "problem" I would see from this trend is the difficulty in judging the correct pronunciation of the name from the written word and in remembering the correct spelling (how many different spellings of Darren did I see as a child). I've known people get very upset when their names are mis-pronounced and this certainly isn't going to improve it for people like that.

Of course I'm not saying that regular names don't have the same problem:

Anthony was always pronounced Antony or Ant-hony, with a very slight h sound, it was never pronounced Anth-ony.

Darren

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 12:42 PM

Correction, there is only one Tier in these classes.
He was moved from Class "A" to Class "B".

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 12:40 PM

My daughter teaches English, reading, and spelling to the public school's two 2nd grade classes. Here are the first names of the other class.

I include pronunciations for those names that most people would consider non-standard:

Class B:

Christiana {Female}

Deabalik {dee-ah-BAH-leek} {Male}

Malik {mah-LEEK} {M}

Erik {M}

Duane {M}

DaVonte {day VAUN-tay} {M}

Makayla {mah-KAY-lah} {F}

Raekwon {rayk-QUAN} {M}

Tyree {Tie-REE}M

Daelon {day-LON} {M}

Tier {tie-AIR} M

Larry {M}

Khamya {cam-YAH} {F}

Londyn {Lon-den} {F}

Andre {M}

Parish {M}

Gennel {gen-NELL} {F}

Aaliyah {ah-LEE-yah} {F}

Donasia {dah-NAY-sha} {F}

Jalayia {jah-LAY-yah} {F}

Dajon {day-JAUN} {M}

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 12:19 PM

Here are the names of 7 & 8 year old African American children who are in one Pittsburgh, PA 2nd grade class that my daughter teaches:

I'll include pronunciation for the "non-standard" names

Room A:
Dajanai {pronounced "day-JAH-nay"} Female

DeAzia {Dee Asia} F

Rashawn {Ray Shawn} Male

Keiare {key AIR} M

Marcel M

Kiarra {key AIR rah} F

Maneha {mah NAY ah} F

Gionni {Gee AUN-nee} F

Deontay {Dee AUN-tay} M

Satoria {sah TOR-ree-ah} F

Matthew M

Dan'ual {Daniel} M

Tier {TEE air} F

Sharif {shah REEF} M

Raaziq {rah-ZEK} M

Shawntre {shawn-tray} M

Ladajza {lah-DAY-shah} F

Qu'raun {COR-RAUN; the name oflike the Islamic holy book} M

****

These examples of personal names reflect the large number of
so-called "different" first names given to African Americans. Given the fact that most of their peers have these names, I would expect that if asked, these children would say that their names are "regular". It seems to me that these children have a wider range of "regular" or "standard" names.

When I was growing up in the 1950s, the only one if these names that I would have considered "standard" {or "regular"} is "Matthew".

This list includes European names such as "Marcel"; Arabic names such as "Sharif" and "Aaliyah", African American Arabic names such as "Dealbalik" and "Raaziq", and African American "made up" names that are based on European or Hebrew personal names, or are of traditional African languages, or were created "from scratch".

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 05:22 AM

Yes Ian is pronounced EE-an as you suggest (as is its variant Iain unless you are being very picky about pronounciation).

One of the greats of English cricket of the 1980s was Ian Botham and during a test match between England and India (or Pakistan)... Let me digress for a moment: on the BBC Radio commentary it is the usual practice to have at least one of the commentators from the opposing team's country. Right, got that? Okay, I'll continue... and one of the commentators from the Sub-Continent continually pronounced his name thus (to much hilarity amongst the listening public)

I-An Bot-Ham

but factor in his accent and it often sounded like:

Iron Bottom

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:32 PM

E-an as in EEE-HAW!
(Sorry, couldn't resist the impulse)
One yclept Ian lives in our block; he pronounces it e'an.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:28 PM

Find Azizi here, in the Kamusi Project Swahili Dictionary (Yale Univ.).
Swahili
Both adjectival and noun forms of Azizi given.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:25 PM

How does one correctly pronouce IAN? I don't hear it that often but it's always been pronounced EE-an. I don't want to sound like a knuckle-dragging dunderhead so please educate me.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 02:12 PM

It still strikes me a bit odd that KiSqahili would be Azizi, when I thought they followed the same gender as Arabic.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 11:00 AM

engl. foam; the surname of the cook. Can also be Schaumlöffel = skimmer, from his tool.
There are some stories spooking in the family about a bowman fighting in the second crusade called in combat: "schau um" = look behind you, but I don't believe this. My ancestors are well documented as innkeepers from the 14th to the 17th centuries, then a younger son had to go to university. So they changed to Lutheran ministers.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 10:13 AM

Wilfried Schaum,

Thanks. I have seen the meaning "my dear" {"my dearest one"} for the Arabic female name "Aziza". I was told that the KiSwahili form of this name is "Azizi". I have also been told and read that other meanings for the female name "Azizi"/"Aziza" are "precious", "darling", and "rare" {in the same sense that precious jewels are rare}.

I have also read that in Arabic the male form of this name, "Aziz" means "mighty"; "powerful". "Al Azizi" is one of the attributes of Allah {"The Mighty"; "The Powerful"}

****

According to books that I have read, "Wilfried" is a form of the Old German male name "Wilfred" or "Wilfrid" and means "resolute, peaceful" or "friend of peace"

I have not been able to find the meaning of the surname "Schaum".

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 02:49 AM

'Az^iz^i = arab. my dear [male]. Female form: 'Az^izat^i

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 09:52 PM

Guest, you name reminded me of Heywood Broun, the journalist and trade unionist, who coined many notable quotes. One of my favorites-

"Everybody favors free speech in the slack moments when no axes are being ground."

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 09:37 PM

Let me try to rephrase the first point of my previous post:

1. Two or more languages may have personal names which are spelled the same or spelled very similarly but these names may not have the same meaning

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 09:32 PM

Q, you have correctly stated what I was trying to say.

And I am also suggesting these points:

1. Different languages have the personal names which are spelled the same or very much alike but have different meanings

2. A "prefix" such as "de" should not be interpreted as 'of' just because it means that in Spanish or some other language.


3. Some contemporary "made up" personal names have no established meaning

4. Names that are spelled the same or similarly may be pronounced differently depending on cultural customs

5. Particular cultures have sound preferences. Some of these sound
preferences may change over time and some may stay the same for a long time

6. African Americans {and other people} use certain formulaic approaches to create variants of existing names or entirely new names

7. A person may 'borrow' the meaning of a similar spelled name to develope & reinforce self-esteem

8. A person may create a meaning for a name to help develope and reinforce positive self-esteem

9. Making up personal names is a creative activity that is accessible to most people.

****

I look forward to reading more about naming practices around the world.


Ms. Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: GUEST,Fun while it lasted
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 09:11 PM

Well, my first name is not all that common; it's Heywood.

That was my father's first name and his father's before him.

But I'm the last of the line and the name dies with me. Should have married and changed my habits long ago. The last male in the Jabloamy family line has let down his ancestors.

The name seemed like a great one when I was younger...

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 06:31 PM

As I think Azizi has shown (I hope I am not mis-reading), syllables that look like prefixes or suffixes in English or other languages may or may not perform that function in naming, and may or may not have the same meaning even if they do.
I actually knew of a baby named'Devon.' His parents had a friend who named their child (female) DeVonne, and they assumed that Devon vould be a male equivalent. They certainly weren't thinking of either the English Devon or the prefix 'de.'
There are only a very few African-Americans in the province (western Canada); they came here only because of the two professional football teams in the province which contract American players. Most with African origins here are from the Caribbean or Africa; their naming practices follow their particular homeland culture or, if Catholic or C of E, the church's practices.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From:
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 04:31 PM

Re Wendy as a "made up" name -- originally, at least. wasn't it a nickname for Gwendolyn? (and very popular in England a few decades ago).

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 03:46 PM

Unless you live there, in which case it's pronounced "Deb'n".

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 12:40 PM

Kendell, I would imagine that using a root name as a base and playing with it to arrive at a variant is done for the same reason that people "mess with" a good song-in other words, for the creativity of it all, and to put their own "stamp" on it.

Another way of saying this is to make the name their own just as jazz & blues and gospel singers & musicians [if not folk singers and musicians] make a song/music their own.

{Of course, there's some people who think that a song must always be played exactly the same way every time. Not me.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: kendall
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 12:17 PM

When you have a good name, why mess with it?

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 11:29 AM

Devun more or less.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 11:18 AM

Le Scaramouche you said "Devon is part of the West Country".

Do you mean England?

How is that "Devon" pronounced?

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 10:34 AM

Devon is part of the West Country.
Although nowadays dont think I could give it to anyone, it sounds like a porn star name.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 10:12 AM

Also to clarify:

I don't mean to imply that African Americans made up the name "Devon".

"Devon" may come from the Irish Gaelic Devin [meaning poet, savant].
I've also seen "Devin" listed as {Latin/French-Heavenly" .

Though "Devon" may be a variant of "Devin", "Devonte", "Devontae", Devontay etc are definitely male names of contemporary [post 1970s] African American origin.

BTW, I've usually heard "Devon" pronouned DAY-vaun' with the "von' rhyming with Shaun {which name I believe is responsible for it's promotion}, since one of the foremost ways we {African Americans} create names is by rhyming...Hence "Shaun" gave energy to the use of the name "Devon" which may have help birth Trevon {TRAY-vaun}; Trevonte, Trevontae etc. {seeing how many ways to phonetically spell an ending is also a biggy with us}

And speaking of "Shaun", my theory is that the name "Shaun" became very popular with African Americans as a result of the popularity of the 007 spy movies in the 1960s and on. Sean Connery was the actor who played 007. Since "Sean" doesn't conform with phonetic spelling, that spelling was changed to "Shaun" and "Shawn" and then "Shon".

And there are umpteen "Shaun", "Shon", and "Shawn" names for males and females. Just play with prefixes, add a suffix, capitolizations and maybe throw in an accent mark and-you've created a new name {that just happens to be the same as countless other new names, but oh well!}

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 10:00 AM

Omar is originaly a Biblical name.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 09:44 AM

Also see this excerpt from an online article on African American naming practices:

"These creative new generation names are not rooted in historical precedent, heroic sentiment or the appreciation of literature. The main reasons for concocting them is simply that they sound pleasing to the ear of the parents, are spelled in some unique fashion, give the impression of being unique, or all of the foregoing. Among other things, a strong affinity for French-sounding names is quite obvious with the articles L', Le, and La used in abundance. Also very popular are the prefixes Sha, She, Shi, Ja, Je, Ka, Da, and De; and the suffixes isha, esha, ika, ius, ante, and ita. We also note the prediliction for mid-word capitalization (examples: LaQunda, LucQuente, D'Livero, AuTashea, DeLisha, NeClea) and the rising trend toward hyphenation (Fa-Trenna, K-Rob, R-Kal). In our survey by far the most common name for males was Marcus and for females Latoya topped the list. Other common female names with variant spellings were Tawanda, Keisha, Lakeisha, Sheniqua, Chante, Ebony, and Tamisha; and for males Marquis, Lamont, Jamal, Tremaine, Jermaine, Daryl, Tyrone, Dwayne, Shawn, Darius, Devon, and Antoine. The stereotypical Leroy is no longer in vogue...

-snip-

For more see click
Afrocentric Naming

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 09:41 AM

As to the meaning of Shakil, Shakel, {and probably its African American variant "Shaquille"}- I did not find Shakil in my Arabic name books either but found it on a website of Arabic names- I believe it was one of the "Behind The Names" sites...

I found this noted on a website about Shaquille O'Neil:

"O'Neal was named "Shaquille Rashaun" ("Little Warrior" in Arabic) by his biological father"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaquille_O'Neal

-snip-

Both the names "Shaquille" and "Rashaun" might demonstrate African American's tendency to 'make up' meanings for names based on what they want it to mean or have heard or read {erroneous as it might be}.

"Rashaun" may be from the Arabic male name "Rashad" whose meaning a book I have is "symbol or sign of faith, integrity of conduct, reason, good sense; This name is similar to [from the same root as] "Rashid"; "Rasheed" which is said to mean "rightly guided; intelligent}

What could have been the reason for the change in suffix? We African Americans are much more "in to" the "aun" sound then the "id"; "eed" sound. Besides African Americans became familiar with Arabic names from famous African Americans and [if the sound preferences fit our liking] used those names {think jazz musician Rashaun Roland Kirk}...   

"aun"; "on" btw is a very hot ending for both female and male African American names. As in the male names "Devon","Trevon"; see also the addition of a suffix to add style and cache to the name {Devonte; Devontay} also add an accent mark or hyphen to be even more unique

"Uniqueness", "being in style" should be added to my list for what criteria African Americans use for selection of names. That's why you find so many similar sounding names among children in the same classroom.

My daughter is a 2nd grade teacher. What interested me about her class roster this year was the large number of "De" names for males. I'll ask her for that list of first names and post it here later.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 09:15 AM

Hmmm forgive me for that I didn't intend to press submit. If I may continue with my theory of what names seem to be most appealing to African Americans

2. the length of the name {two syllables with the accent on the first
                           syllable, or three syllables with the
                           accent on the next to the last syllable.*
                        
3. the positive association- {names of stars that meet the other
   of the name with someone   criteria are adopted; negative
   or something in popular    associations
   culure   

4. the use of established
   prefixes and or suffixes {this probably refers back to #1: for
                               example "La"; as opposed to the older
                               "Le" as a prefix for females:
                               "ika" as opposed to "ous" as a
                               suffix- contemporary "ika"
                               female: "ous" older, basically
                               retired suffix for males such as
                               "Theodous"      

5. the look of a name       {this appears to be much more importance
                              in the late 20th century and now; I
                              am referring to the use of
                              capitolizations {for instance DeAndre
                              instead of Deandre}; accent marks,
                              hypens
                              
                              
6,7, 8 ect I'm sure there are more; this is just a beginning
   
*Maybe all these criteria are the same as in mainstream America except that I think that we {African Americans} may not have the
same sound preferences and also may not have the same positive/negative associations. Furthermore, I think that African American culture values improvisation more than mainstream [non-African American culture}. IMO, we excel in creating things whole cloth and making creative use of already existing material to fashion something new. Thus the plethera of "new" or different "African American" personal names.

As to the use of Arabic names: IMO, religion is low on the reasons why we {African Americans} select names. Islam came to Western Africa in the 11th century as conquerors but the same could be said for the Anglos and the Saxons and Vikings [which ever group or groups conquered which ever...But English people have no problem using the names of their long ago conquerors, is that not so?

There are historical documents that prove that some Africans who were enslaved came from Muslim parts of West Africa. Some enslaved Africans were Muslim and gave Muslim {Arabic names, or Africanized Arabic names such as the female name "Habibatu" instead of "Habiba"}to their children}. Arabic names were [and still are] more known to us [and other Americans than traditional African names. For example wasn't [isn't?] there a White US General Omar Bradley? and what about "Ali Baba and the 30 Theives"? and Princess Shaharazade]. The Moorish American movement in the 1940s or so sparked the reintroduction of Arabic names [since followers of that religion give their children and themselves Arabic names and hyphenate their European last name with an Arabic suffix {Bey, Ali, or El}. The rise of Sunni Islam among African Americans and the adoption of Arabic names by famous African American jazz musicians and sports figures promoted their use among other African Americans, many of whom were not {and are not}Muslim.

As more African Americans learn traditional African names we have adopted them as they are and have adapted them to suit our preferences.

Language is alive for us, and change is a part of being alive.



Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 08:39 AM

Wilfried Schaum,

IMO, African Americans don't base their naming practices on linguistics or proscribed meanings of syllables. Here's what I think we base our personal names on:

1. The sound of the name {does the name "sound good" to us
                         based on certain sound preferences
                         that seem to be cultural, some apparentlylong
                         lasting some more recent.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 07:03 AM

The use of the mother's maiden name as a childs middle name was also quite common in the UK in the 19th centuary - e.g. Isambard Kingdom Brunel. (This also brings up one of my pet hates: the imported practice of the wife retaining her surname and adding her husband's at the end - for example Farrah Fawcett Majors. I'd much rather she'd kept her maiden name if she didn't want to change to her husband's!)

Also in my ancestory where the name of the father is the same as his son it is changed in the third generation - I'd not know about it being bad luck.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 06:41 AM

Yes of course, forgot them, but it's not something layity would use.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 05:48 AM

... and the bishops of Rome, patriarchs and other church dignitaries in highest positions

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 05:13 AM

When did the use of III (for example) come into practice? It used to be the preserve of royalty.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 04:09 AM

Azizi - Shakil I don't find in my Arab dictionary, only Shakila = cocotte.
The stem shakl has nothing to do with beauty, but with doubt, difficulties, forms and shackling.
It is not a variant of Shakeel; ee is used in English orthography for the long i (as in beer) instead of the original to avoid a mispronunciation (as in I) since the days of the Raj.

Latititia has no prefix la-; it is part of the root. Originally Latin laetitia = cheerfulness.

I can understand that African Americans are fed up with the classical names (Scipio, Cicero et al.) given to their ancestors by their slavedrivers, but why should they change to the names given by another bunch of former slavedrivers? I've met so many Africans at university with fine genuine African names.

And the prize for the silliest orthography, in my humble opinion, goes to the name Condoleezza (sort of rice?)

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 03:54 AM

Art - you are a rare creature - a IIIrd! In Britain in the 17th/18th Centuries, it was considered highly unlucky to name the third generation of first borns the same as the others. This is very obvious in my family where the pattern goes William (c1705) , William (b1731), John (b1762), John (b1790), William (b1814). There are similarities in sibling families too. In 5 generations (41 people) there are 9 male Christian names given, but never more than 2 consecutively for firstborn sons.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:25 PM

Correction:

The world wide web

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:23 PM

MARINER, it is interesting to hear that "American" names are being picked up in Ireland and elsewhere.

However, may I suggest that the adjectives "strange" and "weird" reflect negative valuations that "different" and "non-standard" do not.

Of course, one person's difference may be another person's "standard".

For instance, it surprised me one day to hear a young adult I know categorize "Louise" and "Roland" as "different" names. These names were relatively common when I was her age.

And by the way, "Leteisha" is probably a variant form of the Latin female name "Letitia" [meaning "gladness"]. I believe a Latin variant is "Leda". Other English variants are "Letty" and "Leticia". An Italian variant is "Letizia", Letycia {Polish}

True, "Rickie" used to be a male nickname for the Old German name "Richard" [powerful ruler], and I'm not sure what Rickie Lake's first name is [maybe it is "Rickie" and if so, more power to her}.

"Latifa" is an Arabic female name that means "delicate, sensitive, and kind" .

The world wide wide is making the world smaller. Once insulated places are not insulated anymore.

Things will change. And naming practices will probably be a small [or larger] part of that change.

You may regret it. You may attempt to preserve some customs, and succeed in that preservation. But sure as the sun rises and sets, change happens.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: mack/misophist
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:19 PM

The strangest names I've heard were all connected with war stories. Smyrna was the boat that rescued a woman's father. Torness was the last name (all he ever learned) of a marine who saved a man's life. Likewise, Stroad.There are a couple of others that won't come to mind right now. One man who thought he was going to die at the landing at Tarawa swore to name his first child after the patron saint of soldiers (Romanus) if he survived to have one. He did and it was a girl - Romalee.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: MARINER
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:32 PM

These strange personal names are not the preserve of America, although they certainly originated there . It's spreading. Last week a report in a local Irish paper referred to a young baby girl whose name was Leteisha !
       A friend of mine reckons that this trend , for weird names are becoming common here, is a single young mother thing that comes from watching too much daytime television shows such as Ricky Lake , Queen Letifah etc,. Both of these and others of that type , air over here in the afternoons.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:14 PM

Azizi, Gaeilge, Gaelic and Irish are names for the Irish language, yes.

Lee isn't an Irish name; sometimes you hear it used nowadays, but it's an importation from the US.

If you look on Google for "English-Irish online dictionary" you'll find a couple of dictionaries online that will give you words in Irish for any word in English.

Eoin or Eoghan is the usual Irish version of the name John; Seán is also sometimes used as a translation. It's a man's name.

Some people in Ireland are now using traditionally male names for girls - for instance, calling girls Dara or Naoise - but usually if they want to use "Shawn", a re-importation from America, they add an "a" at the end. I've also seen some trendy types spelling their son's name Shaun or Shawn.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 06:53 PM

My given name is Arthur Chase Brooks III, and my father was ACB Junior, and his father...anyway, you get the idea. I never heard of this being used for girl children. My grandfather's middle name was his mother's maiden name, which was a common naming convention in the US in the late 19th century. I expect that there are a lot more IIIs (and even IVs) around than you might think. It was very popular in my parent's day. so there were a lot of IIIs around when I was a kid. I dropped the III (unofficially) at the same time I began using Art rather than Arthur, and I think most other numerically designated people did as well (but I do allow anyone to put that name on a check if they want to....)

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 06:24 PM

Of people I've actually met, probably the one who had the most unusual English name was "Rebel Lee Smith" (a girl). She must have been born around 1960.