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Help: UK Catter at Risk
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: Bernard Date: 21 Aug 01 - 04:23 PM Thanks. I've just had another inconclusive session at the Clinical Psychology Dept., so I'm feeling very down. I'm just getting nowhere... BTW, don't forget to tune in to Hollyoaks between 6:00 and 7:00pm tomorrow (Wednesday 22nd Aug) on Channel 4 to see my British Television debut...!! |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: GeorgeH Date: 21 Aug 01 - 06:10 AM Yes, Bernard, I'm with KingB there . . however bad it gets do remember that your good sense, honestey and openness are greatly valued here, and would be sadly missed. If Mudcat has a fault it's that we too often take the other 'catters for granted, and too seldom express our appreciation of them. Good luck! George. |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: KingBrilliant Date: 21 Aug 01 - 05:28 AM Keep your loose ends dangling Bernard. You're too much of a really nice geezer to lose. Sorry to hear about your friend. Kris |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: Bernard Date: 20 Aug 01 - 07:21 PM When someone feels so unloved, unwanted or useless that suicide seems the only way out, they will do it. A week ago a man who I considered to be a friend (although I only worked with him once a year) did exactly that. Next week I have to do that annual job, and he wont be there. It's still possible that I may do it - sometimes the 'downers' are unbearable, and one day there may be no 'crutch' to lean on which will help me out. Attempted suicides are often a 'cry for help', but mine won't be attempted. I already know how to do it quickly and (I hope) painlessly, and it will be easy for me to do it undisturbed. It won't be a cry for help. it will be final. CraigS, you meant well, and nobody here wants you to feel that we are dismissing what you said out of hand. Your point may be valid - certainly in many cases you would be right - but not this time. GeorgeH - I fully agree that her child is probably the one 'loose end' that she cannot easily tie up which may just prevent her from going through with it. Let's just hope her problems aren't too overwhelming. Each time I plan my end, there is some loose end or other that I feel I must tie up before I do it - but one day... who knows? Suicide threats must always be taken seriously - of that there is no doubt. |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: GeorgeH Date: 20 Aug 01 - 02:24 PM Craig, to present your speculation as "fact" is dangerous - especially when you say "otherwise she'd have killed herself by now" - there were strong signs that the danger here was real. GuestFriend: One thing puzzles me, and if I were you I'd want to explore this with her . . she says she can't walk away from her situation because of the youngster . . yet suicide would be the ultimate walking away (and even if the death appeared natural that's still a damaging loss for the child to suffer). Good luch, as ever! George |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: CraigS Date: 19 Aug 01 - 09:25 PM The objective answer: She feels unappreciated and uncared for. She wants someone to care. She's giving people time to care before it all gets too much for her, otherwise she'd have killed herself by now. Whether she's too sensitive or her family use her as a doormat, we are not in a position to judge. But if she is being used, what is necessary is that change must take place in her life or she will wither. If she is to stay with her family THEY must start to appreciate and love her more than they are currently doing. If not, the best thing is a complete break with them, even if this is seen as desertion, until they appreciate what they have lost. Death is too easy a way out for THEM - in the words of Shel Silverstein *I'm sorry I messed up your rug, just roll my body outa the way*. |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: Bernard Date: 19 Aug 01 - 11:16 AM That's a relief... albeit temporary, perhaps, but it's breathing space. Yes - be vigilant. It's just possible that this is a smokescreen. A ploy used by depressed people when they are fed up of attention is to pretend that all is well. I hope I'm wrong in this instance.
You can wear them in the bath A groovy pair of Happy Pants Will always make you laugh! ...from one of my birthday cards!
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: katlaughing Date: 17 Aug 01 - 03:41 PM Thanks, friend, please keep in touch. Really appreciate your letting us know and would also like to hear back from you about how you are doing. Thanks, again, kat |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: SharonA Date: 17 Aug 01 - 03:38 PM friend: Good news indeed, but I would suggest remaining vigilant. As has been indicated above, her feelings of hopelessness could overwhelm her again... and again. I, too, hope you're all right. Please let us know how you're doing. |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 17 Aug 01 - 12:19 PM This is good news, thanks for telling us.Like smallpiper i hope you are ok. |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: smallpiper Date: 17 Aug 01 - 11:45 AM Good ho - but what about you how are you coping? |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: GUEST,friend Date: 17 Aug 01 - 10:32 AM She is off to Whitby and her Dad is out of danger. There has been to further mention of suicide. |
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Subject: Thanks, folks! From: Bernard Date: 17 Aug 01 - 05:18 AM Thanks! Sorry to be a bit late 'replying', but I don't log in that often these days... My daughter (bless her!) sent me a card with a picture of a hippopotamus, a small bird and two sheep on the front. Inside was the message 'Hippo birdie two ewes...!' I also got cards from my parents (nearly 80!) and my 5 month old grandson. So clever, being able to write at such a young age - incredible how similar his handwriting is to his mother's too... The Earl of Stamford Morris (the side I play for) sent me a card with 'Happy' Pants' on the front (should that be 'on the Y front'?!)... Any road up, I'm at work, so I'd better make this brief, as I'm about to try a data restore on our new server before I put it fully on line. No point in having backups if they don't restore!! Thanks again for all your kind wishes! Much appreciated! |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: katlaughing Date: 16 Aug 01 - 03:34 PM Happy Birthday, Bernard, sorry it is a day late! Hope we hear some good news, soon. kat |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: smallpiper Date: 16 Aug 01 - 03:26 PM Have a good birthday Bernard I'm impressed at the way you've opened up (and the rest of you who have experienced depression) things like this are the best way to help people understand depression and its insideous nature. Thanks John |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: Mr Red Date: 16 Aug 01 - 03:09 PM Bernard turned 35 sounds better it's a digital thing!!!! **G** BUT more to the point is there any refreshing (sic) news? |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: Bernard Date: 12 Aug 01 - 02:14 AM Go, Sister, go! One advantage of being 50+ is being old enough to know better, but young enough to say 'Sod that for a game of soldiers!'... I want to grow old disgracefully... 53 this coming Wednesday! |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: Wyrd Sister Date: 11 Aug 01 - 03:35 PM The bugger about depression is it's so easy to cover up from anyone except those closest. To keep "going through the motions" even when too apathetic to do anything else. As Bernard said, on auto-pilot. And, Bernard, at 50+ I fully intend never to grow up! Looks like I'll be taking the tablets for a long time yet - thank goodness. Good luck to all in similar situations.
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: John Routledge Date: 11 Aug 01 - 07:42 AM Thank you Bernard and Sorcha . John |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: Bernard Date: 11 Aug 01 - 07:29 AM Thanks, Sorcha. I was trying to say that, but couldn't find the words... It's surprising how many people can't take on board the complexity of clinical depression, though people are a lot more aware than they used to be. Doctors are in a difficult position, as no two people have symptoms that are exactly alike, so they have to use blanket terminology to lump people together who act and respond in a similar way. This is why there is such a wide variety of treatments, some of whivh are chemical, some are counselling, and some are a mixture of both. I believe that I've had depression-related problems from being a child - either that, or I just haven't grown up yet... As to coping with something like her father in intensive care, the strange thing about depression is its 'ability' to switch itself in and out unpredictably. I find that very minor things, such as the shop having no bread left, can send me on a wild downward spiral, yet if my daughter rings in the middle of the night because she's worried about my baby grandson's temperature, I can react 'normally'. Maybe 'focus' is an explanation. I rarely go to the Folk Club these days, unless there's a guest booked that needs our sound system. In that situation I find I can function 'normally', and even do the warm-up spot as well. Yet I can't be bothered otherwise. I can 'turn on the act' for a gig, although when I'm at home getting ready I'm thinking to myself 'I don't want to be doing this...' It's got nothing to do with nerves - it's total apathy. Yet when I'm up on stage I go through the whole thing as if on auto-pilot. It's a strange 'out of body' experience, as if I'm one of the audience. I've just been given a recording of a gig I did a couple of weeks ago. I thought it didn't go too well, but the recording tells me that I was on my best form - at least from the audience's point of view. All rather weird, really... Rest assured that her father going into intensive care has probably helped in the short term - it has taken her mind of her own predicament a little. It works for me like that. One of our beloved catters (who has posted to this thread) went through a difficult time not too long ago, and I am proud to say that I was a positive help, both via email and telephone. I was able to give this person a different angle on their problem, and give support when it was most needed. Luckily, I now have someone doing the same for me - though I can be really exasperating at times! The secret here is no hidden agenda - a 'safe' friend who isn't judgemental. They may have strong opinions, but they accept that you have, too. They don't try to make you see the error of your ways, but simply tell you what they might do in the same situation. Hope this helps...
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: Sorcha Date: 10 Aug 01 - 11:14 PM Clinical depression can also be cyclical and triggered by events. Clinical depression can also be defused short term by events but in the long run always comes back.
I know this for a fact. Even lifestyle changes do not necessarily affect Clinical Depression. It seems to be a chemical imbalance. It took several tries with different drugs but I am doing quite well now.
Before Zoloft, even if everything in my life was really OK I was quite unhappy and depressed. I do believe that Zoloft has saved my life and I have experienced no side effects from it at all. I plan to take it every day for the rest of my natural life. I (heart)my Zoloft and PremPro too. Keeps me sane. |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 10 Aug 01 - 09:22 PM I hope your friend is ok, like Bernard I have been very depressed myself a few times, this was caused by splitting up with girlfriend, family bereavement, etc, but I am ok now.Try to get your friend to accept some proffesional help. Shields Folk- I dont think this is a wind up, but even if it was and somebody else who was depressed read it and got better then that would be good, plus it shows that we all care about each other and somebody with a problem should slet people know.john |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: Bernard Date: 10 Aug 01 - 08:56 PM I write this to try to give you an insight to the way a depressive thinks. It may help, it may not... There are two basic types of suicidal depression (okay, a generalisation, but hear me out!). One is 'the blues', which you can be 'shocked' out of. I've had that. The other is clinical depression which you cannot be shocked out of and any attempt to do so could have catastrophic consequences. Protect yourself, as everyone is suggesting. If it happens it isn't your fault. I have lots of friends who would be devastated if I went through with it. But when a suicidal mood takes over, nothing else is in your mind other than to remove the pain quickly. So far I've been lucky - there's always been some reason why 'I can't do it until I've...' - some loose end that needed tidying up. I worry that one day there won't be any more loose ends... Maybe your friend needs your support, but be careful not to push too hard. I was pushed so hard by my best friend (ex-partner, which didn't help) that she doesn't speak to me these days. She took it too personally - as if my negativity was wilful. My problems are threefold: My income is barely enough to 'keep my head above water'. My wife and I parted fourteen years ago (we both preferred women), and I've been on my own since, with the exception of a far too short friendship which started two and a half years ago, and ended a month after my breakdown. If your friend is an ex-partner, and she didn't want it to 'end', you may be hurting her more by showing that you still care. A difficult situation, and I don't know the answer. On the other hand, if your friend is not romantically interested in you (or you in her), you are in an excellent position to give her the support she needs - but don't push! As I've said before, talking is important. But don't be judgemental, or try to impose your opinions and values. Think of a depressive as a child - she needs guidance, not control, and it's a very fine line... If she wants to give her stuff away, let her. Her true friends will give it back if she 'gets better'. It may just be a way of crying for help - I've done it myself. My email address is in an earlier posting - use it if you want to. Your friend may need your support, but you need the support of others who may be able to explain what she is going through in a way that you hadn't considered. I think we all understand the feelings of inadequacy you are going through. Rest assured that you are doing your best, and no one would expect any more than that. We have to accept, sometimes, that things are truly beyond our control. We all hope your patience is rewarded... |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: Shields Folk Date: 10 Aug 01 - 08:42 PM Could this be a wind up? Sorry if its not. |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: georgeward Date: 10 Aug 01 - 08:33 PM She wouldn't be the first seriously depressed person to respond brilliantly to someone else's crisis. But sooner or later the crisis will resolve and she'll be back to realizing she's still living with herself. Then she'll still have all the same work to do. Devious disease. You've got to stalk your depression as patiently as it stalks you. 'S why the condition is so frustrating for those around the depressed. |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: GUEST,SharonA at the library (on vacation too) Date: 10 Aug 01 - 01:17 PM Yikes! This girl gets all the (bad) luck! (not to mention her dad's luck) Here's hoping that she will take the lesson that other people need her to stick around and give them her support. I hope, too, that her father will recover and be well. |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: katlaughing Date: 10 Aug 01 - 10:40 AM Oh, jeez. Seems a tough way to get her to focus on something else. Thanks for letting us know. I hope all turns out well. kat |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: GUEST,friend Date: 10 Aug 01 - 07:24 AM something has happened to her Dad, he's in intensive care. But she seems to be coping with it. I am on holiday in Spokane for two weeks(visiting relis)don't know if I can use a computer there. but will get back to you. thank you |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: Paul from Hull Date: 09 Aug 01 - 05:35 PM Just found this thread & read it through... (I've only been Catting a week) some good advice given & a lot of support (& I know of which I speak....) Lets hope we hear some POSITIVE news soon....*S* |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: smallpiper Date: 09 Aug 01 - 04:24 PM This lack of news concerns me! |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: vindelis Date: 09 Aug 01 - 03:30 PM Kat you must have been reading my mind. I hope all is going well. |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: katlaughing Date: 09 Aug 01 - 03:27 PM Any news, Friend? Wondering if things are okay and if the dad was helpful. Thanks, kat |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: SINSULL Date: 07 Aug 01 - 01:28 AM Professional help is mandatory. Get her to a therapist any way you can. Even when seriously contemplating suicide, she probably does not recognize that she is depressed. Her world seems out of control. For me, the depth of depression was the inability to feel anything. Everything mattered but nothing touched me. She has some difficult times ahead. But with help, she can be fine. |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: GUEST,Patrish Date: 06 Aug 01 - 10:32 AM Lots of good advice. I hope it has helped.
I would also like to let you all know that I am not the mudcatter involved here. I have had a few calls - people worried that it was me. I would never give away my melodeon. And I have too many good friends to ever contemplate suicide.
Please stay in contact and let us know of any progress |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: John Routledge Date: 05 Aug 01 - 10:36 AM What a brilliant idea Mr Red. As you say the first few words are so important in setting the tone of a conversation. Keep up the good work everyone. John |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: Mr Red Date: 05 Aug 01 - 10:19 AM Plenty of good ideas still flowing - mine seems a bit wimpy by comparison but it doesn't conflict with those above soooooooooo....... when I ring my suffering friend I start-in with a song (say - one verse and a chorus) I don't ask, just launch as soon as I know it is her. It prevents that "how are you?" setting the mood and she loves it. Up-beat and frothy. It works for us. Sometimes I get to try out my new songs like the "Pencil Sharpening Shanty" (now in the DT) and she gets to be first to hear it. Win Win. |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: GUEST,JTT Date: 05 Aug 01 - 04:44 AM I've read - and this may or may not be correct, but it sounds the biz to me - that a good way to deal with suicidal plans is to help someone to make *other* plans. Thing is, when you're down enough, suicide can seem like a solution. "Ah, I have it now. If I top myself that'll end the problem." If the suicidal person can start thinking constructively about things, and find other, more sensible, solutions, suicide doesn't seem so attractive, and finally recedes to a realistic viewpoint of the mad idea it really is. Bad spouse? Kids walking all over her? Sounds to me like she's got a case of teenagers. Is there such a thing as "teen-anon" for parents of teenagers? As for the spouse, well, he's just joining in and being another teenager; not much she can do about that except what you do with teenagers - ignore him when he's bad and give him attention when he's good. Try to get her talking to Samaritan; sure, they're probably *sometimes* useless, after all, they're humans. But sometimes they're good. Try to get her making lists: lists of things to do, lists of what's bad and needs to be changed in her life. Try to get her taking some exercise - take her out to the mountains and walk with her. Excercise and fresh air will help a lot. She's probably worried about the kids; explain to her that teenagers need a lot of time alone thinking, and are creatures ruled by their raging hormones. The Good People will give back her real children later, and she'll forget she ever had those awful monsters who are living with her at the moment. And tell her that the thoughts and prayers and kind feelings of Mudcatters are with her. Courage, mon brave! |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: Liz the Squeak Date: 04 Aug 01 - 07:45 AM I was shocked out of my suicidal depression by someone suggesting ways of doing it. He asked what I would prefer, short and sharp or long and lingering. He then proceeded to give me all the medical details of what would happen if I fucked it up. The vegetable state seemed infinately worse than what I already had, and that was the turn I needed. It doesn't work for everyone. Just keep being there. The only way to work through crap like this is to just be there. If you wash your hands of them, it will be the last straw. Just keep telling them you're there and that you always will be. Liz |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: Naemanson Date: 04 Aug 01 - 07:32 AM Friend, you have to stay involved. You have to be supportive and you have to protect yourself. All this has been said above and all stands firm. Sometimes what is needed from a friend, a true friend, is to be smacked up side of the head. Not so long ago I was so deeply depressed I was talking of suicide to a dear friend. I too planned to make it look like an accident. She very gently, but firmly, told me that if I took that route she would tell the authorities I had planned it that way and then my family would be out the insurance money I wanted them to have plus they would have the stigma of knowing I had left them on purpose. It undercuts the determination a little. I'm not saying to do this. Each situation is unique. But it worked for me. I got myself to a counselor and started trying various antidepressants. I am doing much better now that I have my little pink happy pills. |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: georgeward Date: 04 Aug 01 - 03:44 AM Well, Friend, your last post above is heartbreaking.That's the sort of distorted thinking that brings about the suicides that should't happen. Like others above, I think you were right to involve her father...yet I also hope he's not part of the problem. It is genetics and chemistry right enough, but also social context and a lifetime of learning that feed the sort of thought patterns you've laid out for us. That I know firsthand. It may not be so in this case, but "people, places and things," can all be triggers, just as AA says. So... I'd say, first, don't let your contact with her slip because someone else is now on the scene. You are the one she turned to (A cry for help that you've answered as well as one can. May be enough, may not. You've just got to put it out there in hope and DO NOT BLAME YOURSELF if she suicides anyway. Others have addressed this. Take us to heart. We've paid plenty to learn this). Second, undoing that sort of thinking means a lot of capable, professional counselling. Keep that as something to come back to when and as you have the chance. As Bernard has said much better, THE world is not as she sees it, but HER world is. It can be a labor of years for a severely depressed person to learn that and to learn to use the knowledge. Third (or maybe first)...support for yourself. If I were in your shoes, I'd be on the first bus back to whichever of the good therapists I've worked with could give me the earliest appointment. You may want to turn to someone else. Either way, it is simply one of the necessary tools to getting the job done safely and well. And, oh yeah, by taking care of yourself emotionally, you are also modelling something she needs to see. She's got a damn good friend! - George ::-.--O |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: SharonA Date: 03 Aug 01 - 11:39 AM No, that's the woman in the "Suspect Physical Abuse" thread. Both are gravely serious situations; both women are in danger. |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: katlaughing Date: 03 Aug 01 - 11:32 AM Sorry, I thought she was newly married and there were no children involved. Did I miss something? Not trying to be picky, just a bit confused. Really glad to hear her father is going to be there, today. kat |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: Kim C Date: 03 Aug 01 - 10:05 AM Privacy? Sure. Respect? No. The people who love her will not respect her for leaving them that way. I think we all probably know how it is not to feel valuable at some time. Unhappy times eventually go away. Sometimes it takes a long time - a long, miserable time. I know that from experience. She is not the only person in the world who has ever felt that way. Do you have a crisis intervention center in your area, or a mobile crisis unit? They may be able to help. Don't give up on her. |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: SharonA Date: 03 Aug 01 - 09:45 AM We all hope so too, Friend. I'm guessing that it has done no good to point out to her that, by killing herself, she would be leaving her small child in a worse situation (motherless) than if she were an absentee parent, sharing custody or visiting. As to the "stigma": you and, now, her father know that she is contemplating suicide. If she carries it out, that's a secret with which you will both be burdened. Who knows whether the father would be willing to keep that secret? Either way (secret kept or revealed), it damages other people besides the one who commits the suicide. |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: GUEST,friend Date: 03 Aug 01 - 08:49 AM There are lots of reasons that her life is so unhappy. A bad relationship with spouse, children who walk all over her. she really needs to turn around and walk away. But she tells me that she is fed up of moaning to all and sundry, fed up of everything. She just wants a little privacy and respect and the only way she can achieve this is to be dead, and then no one can hurt her or abuse her kind nature.I am at aloss as to what to advise her to do, I have suggested she leave the situation but as small child is involved she wont. she has told me that she is going to make the suicide look like an accident so that her family and friends will not have any stigma. her Dad arrived today so hopefully he will pull her round MW |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: Penny S. Date: 03 Aug 01 - 06:44 AM Is there some situation which has triggered this? Can that be helped? I'm in a similar case at the moment, and there is a situation which needs altering before the pressure to suicide can be lifted. Has your friend mentioned what it is that makes her see this as the only way out? Penny |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: Mr Red Date: 02 Aug 01 - 04:52 PM Positives? I am helping someone who now laughs when I say "consider the benefits", it is our catchphrase. I couldn't be more serious and she knows it but it is a slow process and who knows what real effect I am having. In this case she is not what we would call suicidal (as far as we can tell) but is definitely that low. The problem is that people being positive and suggesting things is the last thing they want. AND The first thing they need and there we have the nub - the gap between need and want is too great - result unhappiness. I did see a report in New Scientist that the effects of losing weight quickly has many of the same symptoms as depression. In retrospect it rung bells with my youth and more recently with someone close. the comfort eating that preceeded it in the latter case was a clue to unhappiness we all missed. Does this apply? |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: Paul Mitchell Date: 02 Aug 01 - 04:47 PM When that catter returns here hopefully they will read this thread. I hope you get the idea that there are a lot of people out here who give a damn about you and about your friend. I hope you can find the strength to stay with us. There are so many songs and tunes to play and enjoy, and so many more to write! The best of luck to you. ragingpagan@hotmail.com (By the way, C.D. for sale, only a fiver. Bargin' guvnor.. I can tell ya') Paul |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: selby Date: 02 Aug 01 - 02:30 PM Hopefully our catter friend has continued to be a catter and has been reading the advice and words of comfort that are available to both her and her friend. I am no expert but reading this thread there are enough people who care enough to take time out to help you both, that alone should be help to get any one out of a dark hole and believe me when I say I have felt desperate a couple of times the best bit of advice I was given was look for & find the positive's of which this thread is one and act on that. Keith |
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Subject: RE: Help: UK Catter at Risk From: mg Date: 01 Aug 01 - 03:29 PM If you can, take her physically to see her doctor, your doctor, any doctor. If things seem eminent, take her to the emergency room if she will go. This is a life-threatening emergency. mg |
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