The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: GUEST,van lingle
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 05:53 PM

Thanks, for your recommendations, folks and thanks, Mark, for remembering P. Kelligan for me. I used to see him and James Kelly at John Martin's in Miami. vl

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: Pauline L
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 03:11 AM

I'm not a guitarist but I know what I like. I just bought a CD called Celtic Guitar Summit, with guitarists Steve Baughman and Robin Bullock, and I love it. I've been listening to and loving Robin Bullock's music on guitar, bouzouki, fiddle, etc. for years. He used to live in my area and I heard him in person frequently, but he moved to France. I'm glad I got his new CD.

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: michaelr
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 07:07 PM

Maire Ni Chathasaigh (Casey, sister of fiddler Nollaig - THE GODDESS) and Chris Newman, "Out Of Court" (Old Bridge, 1991) and "Live In The Highlands" (Old Bridge, 1995). Great stuff!

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: GUEST,Declan
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 06:00 AM

Van Lingle,

Steve Cooney can be heard on many recordings often playing bass or Digeridoo. His guitar style is best heard on recordings he made with Co Kerry box player Seamus Begley - who I think have made a number of recordings, one of which is called Meitheal - pronounced sort of like metal with a h instead of a t in the middle.

Denis Cahil has also recorded lots of stuff but is best known in Irish Music for his work with fiddler Martin Hayes - try "Martin Hayes and Denis Cahil live in Seattle".

Chris Newman has likewise done a lot of work in various bands including a stint in Boys of the Lough - although I'm not sure if this line-up recorded anything. Chris can be heard in at least one excellent duet album with harpist Maire Ni Cathasaigh - Not sure of the title.

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: Kaleea
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 04:55 AM

I came up playing in Ceili Bands in the lower mid-western USA where I was "volunteered" because I could play piano in the old timey boom chuck style. When I picked up the guitar at about 13 or 14, I continued to play the bass lines--but with my thumb on the lower strings. The old fellers demanded that I play the bass lines cause it reminded them of when somebody would be playing the boom chuck Piano in sessions "back home on the Ould Sod," or when the button accordian player played the bass notes on the low chord buttons. I still play guitar in this style, no pick, especially when playing Irish Music. The 6 string has only 2 strings more than the Bass. The walking bass lines are right under your fingers in the chords, which are mostly open chords. It is something to think about if you really love the Music that much & want to be a part of it.

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: mooman
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 04:28 AM

Noted and thanks Brendy!

moo

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: Brendy
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 04:09 PM

No problem mooman. PM in your inbox... :-)

B.

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: kanevoices
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 11:42 AM

He is called Paddy Kelligan but James and he no longer play together. James Plays with a range of muscians now from Arty McGlyn to Zan McCleod. Recently he has brought out a brilliant, emotional solo album. He tours through out the year and while at home teaches.

I have played with James a good few times in the past few years. I am a tradtional folk guitarist, Mark Kane, www.markkane.com, [e-mail], presently working on my first Trad album. Just finished a contemporary song writers album, my own stuff, called Fool'd Dark Evening.

Take care, Mark Kane

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: GUEST,van lingle
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 10:59 AM

That's me at 10:41 a.m.

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 10:41 AM

What a fine, informative thread this is. I'm not knowingly familiar with the playing of some of the players mentioned above like Steve Cooney, Dennis Cahill and Chris Newman. Can anyone recommend some favorite recordings?
Also, there used to be a player in the Miami, FL area who backed up the fiddler James Kelly who had an interesting style. It's been some 15 odd years since I saw them last but anyone remember him. I think he played an archtop? vl

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 06:36 AM

Cromdubh, I take it all back. You're obviously one of the good guys. Careful with that amp, though.

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: mooman
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 04:59 AM

Kind words earlier in the thread from An Pluiméir Ceolmhar and I thank him kindly! One does one's best and having grown up "in the tradition" certainly helps!

But since hearing Brendy play guitar at Portaferry I've decided I can't play guitar at all and should stick to my ever-growing family of different-sized eight stringers where I belong! (;>)

BTW Brendy, I travel to Norway occasionally for work...be great to drop in for a tune or two if I'm up your way!

BTW (and off topic a little) Mudcat meetups are for sharing knowledge and tips with fellow 'Catters (some will know what I mean!)

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: Brendy
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 04:33 AM

Oddly enough, an uncle of the guy that started this thread, bought the same Bass as mine (Eko Chetro cutaway with nylon strings) not long after I got mine.

Great guitars.
Pity they dont make them any more.

B.

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: Brendy
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 04:25 AM

I was kicked out of Comhaltas for 3 months for playing an A7 on a run down from Em to D.

I was about 13 at the time, and was told in no uncertain terms the we'll have 'None of that oul' Bothy Band stuff in here'

By some folks' yardsticks, the only traditional Irish instrument there is, therefore, are a set of bones.

Of course they would have to be Irish bones, I would imagine.

There's 'purists' everywhere.
Don't mind them...

But I would have to ask cromdubh to look a bit closer at the Acoustic Bass.
I played one in a 'Ballad Folk' band at the end of the 70's, and accompanied trad on it, as well.
It is played differently from an Electric one, and it is always the case that the crossover from Electric to acoustic is much harder that if you started out playing the acoustic version of first.

Try the backwards step, cromdubh.
I'm sure, eventually, you'll appreciate the difference.

And not a double (contra) bass!
Not if you go to gigs in a Ford Fiesta......

Oh, God be with the good old days, what?

B.

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 02:04 AM

If a Greek instrument, the bouzouki, could "become" Irish so easily within the span of a decade or two, why is there such controversy over the bass, let along the common guitar?

Not too sure that there is any - involving any instrument in traditional Irish music. Whatever that is?

There are just some practical difficulties in amplified instruments in sessions.

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: PoppaGator
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:35 PM

If a Greek instrument, the bouzouki, could "become" Irish so easily within the span of a decade or two, why is there such controversy over the bass, let along the common guitar?

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: GUEST,cromdubh
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:17 PM

Thanks Poppagator and Jim.

I´m not the sort to impose myself on anybody´s session. I play very suble and soft bass and prefer to play along with acoustic instruments. The 20 watt amp, merely makes my electric bass an acoustic instrument too.

As a bass player I see my role is to not take away from any other musican, only to add some depth to the sound.

Irish music is my music and I want to get better and better at it. I love the bass as an instrument and maybe I´m wrong not picking up a fiddle or flute, but I feel at this stage in my life I could only ever get to master one instrument; the one I picked up ten years ago. The bass. There is a place for it in Irish Music, at least in some sessions.

I know the importance of taking the pure form of the music alive and safe for the future. My experience is the best Irish Musicans have respect for the pure form, but that doesn´t stop them having fun with the music and trying new things. They could play something experimental, then return and play a time honoured tune brilliantly.

Every tune was new at one time, every instrument was introduced for the first time, at one stage. The people then didn´t care if the instrument was traditional or not, they just wanted to play music, if not they lilted, danced and sang.

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 09:02 AM

Sorry folks, but it's not really about amps or no - it's about ear, touch and balance.

I know of "musicians" without amps who feel they have to stamp all over the mix in whatever way they can. I also know of one particular musician who makes beautiful music with or without an amp in any setting, and with a variety of instruments, right or left handed, right side up or upside down - makes no difference - he's just very special.

He plays a bass guitar (with amp) alongside acoustic un-amped players and his contribution is so sweet you want to bottle it and take it away with you.

So to you Cromdubh, I'd say IF you've "got the music in you" (you have the instinct for ear,touch and balance as a natural given) then go and join those sessions and add some magic to the blend. Your eyes and ears will soon tell you if you've achieved synergy.

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: PoppaGator
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 07:45 PM

Good for you, Cromdubh!

A double bass would not only be a huge additional expense, but would be exceedingly bulky and unweildy in a crowded pub environment. And I think you're right about those acoustic bass guitars (although there are one or two acoustic bass players hereabouts who would argue that point).

You seem to have the right approach: ask first, and be discreet with your amp, in terms of both volume and visibility. The purest of the purists will tell you no thanks, but you can still listen and learn at their sessions. Plenty of other musicians will give you a chance; assuming that you exhibit a degree of taste and discretion, they'll welcome you back.

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: Cromdubh
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:33 PM

I have no intention of forgetting about it. I bought the amp before I left for South America to travel for a year. Just before I left I did manage to join a few sessions. A session with Eoin O'Neill in Ennis and downstairs in the Craine Bar in Galway.

I approached them and simply asked and made it very easy for them to tell he it was not suitable. They didn't. The amp is small and tucked under my stool, you wouldn't know it was there. As for it's volume, it's just loud enough to be bearly heard.

Now these were relaxed enough sessions and were not strictly purist and I wouldn't expect to just in such a session.

I just want to learn and play Irish music with my choosen instrument.

Acoustic Bass guitars don't work and I can't afford a double bass.

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: Stu
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:15 PM

As a bouzouki player of not great ability who loves the music, I am glad to have caught this thread, which I must have missed last time around.

I have always really enjoyed Donal Lunny's percussive style of bouzouki playing, and learnt some of my stuff from the Gerry McKee tutorial CD (www.madfortrad.com). I have always had trouble emulating the flatpicking style of accompaniment, probably it only really works if you know the tune inside out, and I am not sure of exactly what I am supposed to be doing.

Plenty of food for thought in this thread!

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 02:40 PM

There are gigs (dances) and there are sessions. It is not always obvious to strangers in Ireland what to expect and very easy to get confused.

There was certainly no amplification at the traditional session where we played last year in Kilfenora........There was a guitar.

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: PoppaGator
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 12:48 PM

I'm no expert, just a dumb Yank, but during my one week in Ireland two years ago, I was surprised at how many amplified instruments I observed at supposedly traditional venues.

My relatives brought me to a truly authentic, locals-only, ceili where the band used a modern drum kit and electric keyboard. I suppose this underlines what was said earlier, that if one wanted to use an electric bass in Irish traditional music he should look into a dance band.

At Gus O'Connor's pub in Doolin, a supposed Mecca of traditional music, the fiddlers had pickups and one guy played an electric piano as a bass (one-fingered). The only unamplified instrument was the bodhran, and it was barely audible.

I suppose O'Connor's is too famous now to be as "authentic" as an obscure session in a small-town pub where everyone knows each other. Certainly, on the August weeknight when we visited, it was so crowded that the musicians would not have been heard without amplification. However, the tunes certainly sounded entirely traditional to my untutored ear, and were probably quite authentic in some sense even if the presentation (the amplification and, to some extent, the instrumentation) was a bit modernized.

So, it would seem to me that there must be some oppportunites for our friend to add some appropriately-modulated electric bass to sessions featuring basically-traditional Irish music. He's just got to pick his spots.

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 08:32 PM

I`m a bass player and I`ve recently bought a battery powered amp. Until now I was unable to physically join a session. Now I would love to take part and learn how the play Irish music.
I know there will be sessions I won`t be welcome. I won`t make a scene and sit, listen and hopefully learn.
But I hope I won`t always be on the outside of something I love.

If you took your bass and amp - but made it clear that you were also going to take and use headphones - so that only you would be able to hear your playing - I am sure that no one would object to this.........

There is always the option of a double bass.......

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 09:46 AM

Buy an Acoustic Bass Guitar

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 06:55 AM

Cromdubh, forget it. If you start briging an amplifier to traditional Irish sessions you are going to fuck them up.

If the player does not think that their instrument or the style in which they play is loud enough - the answer is to change their instrument or their style - never to bring in amplification.

Out of choice - I would play bouzouki at sessions. Howver, for carrying the melody it is not loud enough to be heard among lots of other instruments or in a big or crowded venue. So as a compromise I play tenor banjo for the melody and bouzouki for the chords.

Despite it being advertised as an 'unamplified celebration of the folk tune- - I find myself not only competing on a regular basic with one amplifier (for a bass guitar) but another regular - (who also has and plays tenor banjo) who insists on adding yet another amplifier in order to play melody on (amplified) mandola.

On a bad night in the course of a noisy evening - the two of them compete and turn-up their levels and at by the end of the evening - all that can be heard are the bass and (amplified) mandola. Do I now leave my banjo at home and take my amplifier as well - before the fiddle players decide to amp-up as well?

No amplified instruments do have their role to play - but NEVER at sessions. For if you accept one (say for a bass) you then have to accept them all...........

The ironic thing is that the chap who now insists on bringing his amp - once started a come-all-ye session where a chap welding his loudly amplified Stratocaster turned-up and treated us to the entire Jimi Hendrix back catalogue - while the rest of us listened and clapped..........

If you accepted an amplified acoustic guitar picking out melodies - it would be rather difficult to excude and Heavy Metal thrashers who also decided to entertain you.......

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 04:52 AM

Cromdubh, forget it. If you start briging an amplifier to traditional Irish sessions you are going to fuck them up. Sorry to be negative but as of now, how much Irish traditional music do you actually know? How much have you sat down and listened to at home for pleasure without wondering whether there is a place for you in it? If the answer is 'lots', then by all means give it a go. If the answer is 'not much but I know what I like' then you've got some homework to do. If you really want to do something useful with an electric bass in traditional music then get yourself into a dance band.

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 04:24 AM

And I should also have mentioned that Dianne Dugan's article was published in a journal called Eighteenth Century Studies.

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 12:58 AM

And I should have mentioned this was in the mid-18th century, and that the 'old ballads' sought after were of 17th century mint.

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 12:56 AM

Now this is definately thread-drift, but it may be important. While looking up something else, I stumbled across an article in which the author argued that printers William and Cluer Dicey marketed 'old ballads' to a lower middle-class and working class audience (that's probably not the right term, but nothing else comes to mind at the moment). The author was Dianne Dugan and she argued that the Diceys borrowed heavily from James Roberts' A Collection of Old Ballads. She insists:

"...the ballad revival was not confined to the 'sophisticated level'...but in fact flourished on the popular level as well.... The fact is, ordinary people...purchased ballads marketed explicitly for their historical and antiquarian value."
Dianne Dugan, "The Popular Marketing of 'Old Ballads': The Ballad Revival and Eighteenth-Century Antiquarianism Reconsidered," Vol. 21, No. 1 (Autumn, 1987), p. 72.

And while has nothing directly to do with the guitar in British-Irish-American folk music, it does offer an interesting perspective on past folk revivals and the role of commerce in middle- and working-class culture.

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 10:42 PM

One important qualification: that's material that we now think of as "traditional"; at the time most of it probably wasn't, though old songs were already being gentrified in Scotland, something that didn't happen in England or Ireland until quite a bit later. The guitar was a fashionable parlour instrument, not the mass-appeal thing it eventually became. It probably enjoyed a vogue in Irish polite society too, but that isn't something I know about.

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: Goose Gander
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 09:44 PM

I was interested to learn from Malcolm's post of several years ago that the guitar was popular in English and Scottish 'traditional' music in the 18th century. Now consider that there are references to fiddle and banjo sessions from the late 18th/early 19th century in North America, though the guitar was not commonly used in the US together with fiddle and banjo until the early 20th/late 19th(?)century. And now think of the all the music that has been made on both sides of the Atlantic with the guitar-fiddle-banjo line-up during the last 50-75 years. It's almost as though that particular combination was lying around waiting to happen. More evidence of the reciprocal relationship between British-Irish and American folk music.

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: skarpi
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 05:38 PM

Vá , this is a great thread, there has been many bands from Ireland
and all of them has one or two guitar´s , I have not yet heard of any band yet, who play with out a guitar who had come to Iceland that is folk music..


In my band we have four guitars only two guitar players and Helgi
coult be alone playing but sometimes it´s good to have some rythm
in the back ( right )and it is not always just ( strum, strum ,strum and strum ) sometimes it sounds very great.I my self play guitar´s
both six and twelve string and a Bodhrán .

The chieftains is a band without guitar and it sounds great,
Lunasa have guitar and it´s sounds even better, it´s great either way it is , but in some songs it´s good to leave the guitar out.

Micheal thank you for this , this is what Mudcat is for

All the Best Skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: Cromdubh
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 05:25 PM

Any instrument played with respect for Irish Music should be welcome.

I`m aware of purists being apposed to guitars in sessions. Why?

Stated earlier many accepted instruments were at one time imported strange things, adopted and added to the flavour of Irish music.

I`m a bass player and I`ve recently bought a battery powered amp. Until now I was unable to physically join a session. Now I would love to take part and learn how the play Irish music.

I know there will be sessions I won`t be welcome. I won`t make a scene and sit, listen and hopefully learn.

But I hope I won`t always be on the outside of something I love.

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 04:25 PM

I've tried to create a link to another relevant thread. Hope it works.
thread.cfm?threadid=75225&messages=79#1319023

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 11:17 AM

I suppose that retrospectivity comes from the solid and almost deified deified 70's!!

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 07:38 PM

I think there is an interesting contrast between the retrospectivity of this thread, and the emphasis on change in the thread on English folk.

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: Amos
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 09:46 AM

This is a wonderful thread, of the sort that makes the Cat what it is at its best; thanks to all of you for your thoughts.

A

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: number 6
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 08:46 AM

Most thanks divilthebit for reviving this!!

Never stop learning or listening for new ideas · The tune is all!


sIx

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 08:25 AM

Glad you did, divilthebit. I just reread it top to bottom and find it to be one of the better discussions we have had. Thanks for bringing it round again.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: GUEST,divilthebit
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 07:19 AM

Just thought I'd throw this one back into the mix!!

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 09:19 AM

When at the computer keyboard, try placing the banjo to one side - it will improve your fingering greatly.

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: GUEST,a banjo player
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 11:19 PM

i read most of what you hac wroitten and being a 'serious musician' i find you to be a pompous ass. I am 'ta;ented at the banjo and i try to be good to anyone learning an instrument. I realize that some people may not be eric claptons but i've picked up a storm with a many not so good rythym guitarists. I believe that if your not in it for the fun of music and the thrill of creating, than you should quit. Too many people become pompous and think they are the best. True knowledge is to admit to know nothing. I am a damn fast picker but i still will jam with beginners. Afterall todays beginners are tomorrows pros

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: MartinRyan
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 06:32 AM

Heard some wonderful music at a session last weekend. Two fiddles, button accordion and guitar. Don't think they'd ever played together before. To my ears, the guitar player was as near perfect as I've heard in such circumstances. Great time, plenty of chordal variety without distracting from the tunes - he just kept the energy level going without forcing it.

But...... that was so unusual as to be worth comment.

Regards

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 06:19 AM

Great thread. Mooman is only one of several very talented people around here who pluck various kinds of strings on both melody and backing with great taste and, where appropriate, restraint. Our sessions are, however, sometimes invaded by people who might be good guitarists but clearly haven't grasped what Irish trad music is about.

Coincidentally, just today, one of the denizens of Chiff and Fipple has just put up a web page on DADGAD designed to help people who want to learn. It's all Greek to me, but looks convincing. Haven't had time to listen to the sound samples yet for positive confirmation. It's here.

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: Gypsy
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 10:56 PM

Regards to Big Mick.....you haven't lived until you've heard irish music in middle eastern tuning.........such as little begger man! Anyway, i am a fool, and should've found this thread and refreshed it, instead of starting a new one. Thanks to Declan for the heads up and words of wisdom

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 02 - 11:22 AM

As a guitar palyer I confess to being a little jealous of the melody makers but your post has enlightened me to a few of my obvious failings. More meekish in future, thanks alot!

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: GUEST,Slickerbill
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 05:17 PM

Hey Mick, thanks for the title. Cheers. SB

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: Alice
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 10:45 AM

Mick you have me smiling, because an excellent hammered dulcimer player in our session has at times injected humor into a silent gap by launching into Inna Gadda Da Vida (baby!). Never fails to get everyone laughing.

Subject: RE: The Guitar and Irish Traditional Music
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Sep 02 - 09:34 AM

Shambles jsut because you happened to be at a festival where the owners of the Tenor Bahjos could not play a tune on them does not mean that one cannot play a reel on one.

No indeed and I played many such reels there on my tenor banjo, a worthy instrument. I just would never strum chords on it.

One of the two players I mentioned did play a melody once, and he played it very well. So it was a little of a mystery why he insisted on playing chords, especially when the other chap was already doing this.

Dennis Cahill's playing with Martin Hayes is fine by me too.