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BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Jun 02 - 10:31 PM Deda - Excellent points all around! I believe you have hit on the key issue....the problem isn't with the people who become doctors...it's with the ruthlessly competitive money-driven system in which they become doctors. And that is the problem with just about everything else in modern society too. People are not being served. Nature is not being honored. Money is being served. If you've got a lot of it, expect the red carpet treatment. If you don't, well, too bad... - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: Deda Date: 13 Jun 02 - 06:09 PM I've missed parts of this thread, but here are my own reasons for not ENTIREly trusting doctors: 1. In my HMO, my doctor gets about 15 minutes with me, 20 max. After that, she's supposed to be on to the next person (I know that she's under these orders because an acquaintance of mine is a doc for the same HMO.) During those 15 minutes she has to ask questions, listen, make a determination, explain it to me, AND enter data about all of this into my electronic record AT THE SAME TIME, not later. I'm over 50, and she's been my doctor for maybe 2 years, so there's no possible way she could know much about my history. I don't see her often enough! This is the HMO's standard, which seems to me the irreducible minimum excuse for treatment. I'm sure my doctor's a smart, decent woman but she's being crushed into a VERY bad system.
2. In order to get through medical training, she had to be intensely competitive, and she had to survive a couple of years of absolutely brutal overwork combined with constant sleep deprivation, which is a form of trauma used effectively for torture and brain-washing. If all of your schooling had taken place under conditions of high trauma and very low sleep, how well do you really think you'd remember it? What kind of effect would years of intense competitiveness and sleep deprivation and threat of loss of status, what would that do to you in the long term? What sort of a person would you be likely to be as a result of that? I think our method of training doctors is god-awful, pretty much guaranteed to turn out egotistical, self-absorbed, but admittedly BRAINY in a tunnel-vision way, robots.
3. In all those years of intense training, here are courses that are NOT generally taught, or weren't until quite recently: The mind-spirit-body connection. Nutrition (a pretty vast subject, with many competing schools of thought; you could put together at least a full year of study on this alone). Study of miraculous recoveries (that's a baffling ommission; if you're trying to get people well, wouldn't you want to study people who have gotten well?). What constitutes true health. The effects of love and/or prayer on illness and recovery. Bedside manner, or loving your patients, or caring about your fellow human being. Which alternative therapies work on what and why.
4. Now that she's out of med school and practicing, my doc and her HMO get bombarded with an endless flood of promotional material, free samples, videos, handouts, personal phone calls, from drug companies whose primary motivation is -- what, do you suppose? Raising our national level of wellbeing? Diminishing the number of obese or diabetic or drug-addicted people in the country? No, no no no no, silly -- it's MONEY, of course! Profits. The bottom line. I don't think that my doctor or, more important, her bosses the HMO, are immune to all that financial incentive to hand out the latest high-profit drugs like so much popcorn.
I have an acupuncturist whom I've seen off and on over ten years, who ALWAYS schedules me for a full 45 minutes to an hour, always actually talks to me at some length, knows me and my history and the names of my kids. She's very knowledgeable, has often prescribed Chinese herbs for various things for me, but doesn't pretend to be able to cure everything, and has sent me to traditional western medicos when necessary. Acupuncture has worked very well on me for many things--obviously not for everything. Who would you rather consult?
The Wasserman Test for syphilis
Insulin, discovered by Dr. Minofsky
Chloral Hydrate, discovered by Dr. Lifreich
The Schick Test for Diphtheria
Vitamins, discovered by Dr. Funk
Streptomycin, discovered by Dr. Woronan
Polio Pill by Dr. Sabin
Polio Vaccine by Dr. Jonas Salk. Says Levinson: "You want to be mad at us? Be mad at us! But I'm telling you, you ain't going to feel so good."
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Jun 02 - 03:35 PM That is a distinct possibility. I wasn't in any of his courses, so I can't say for sure. I was majoring in Spanish at the time. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: Jim Dixon Date: 13 Jun 02 - 01:23 PM Little Hawk: I'll bet your professor wasn't wacky at all. By getting into arguments with students, he was forcing them to put together coherent logical arguments based on evidence. In other words, he was teaching them, by a clever approach, how to think like scientists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Jun 02 - 01:15 PM "most people "know" the earth is round only because their teachers told them so, and they believed it!" Wow, Jim!!! THAT is exactly the point I was trying to make in several of my posts on this thread...good stuff! Now you've got me wondering if the guy at U. of T. was part of such a put-on. If so, he was willing to keep at it for lengthy periods of time. If it is a well-organized put-on they ought to get a gold medal award for creative humour. I can readily see how the concept of a flat circular Earth can be used to glibly explain sunrise, sunset, orbital paths of satellites, etc...one wonders what is on the bottom of said flat Earth? Fascinating! We must get Captain Kirk and Spock to investigate this matter and deliver the definitive word on it. :-) - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: Jim Dixon Date: 13 Jun 02 - 01:04 PM Regarding the Flat Earth Society: I always thought they were a great put-on. I remember seeing a representative of that organization being interviewed on TV many years ago, about the time the first astronauts were going into space. I could swear the guy was wearing a fake mustache or some other semi-obvious disguise. I don't know who he really was, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't who he claimed to be. The interviewer was one of your typical TV hosts who had no particular expertise in science. I think this might have been on the Today Show or something like it. The interviewer asked the Flat Earth guy how it was possible, if the earth was flat, for astronauts to orbit around it. The Flat Earth guy demonstrated, with a flat polar map, how the astronaut was simply hovering in a circular path above the flat earth. I think he said the magnetic pull of the North Pole was what held the space capsule in orbit. He had an answer for every question the interviewer could throw at him. I always suspected, although I can't prove it, that the Flat Earth Society was simply a group of scientists, or maybe scientific-minded amateurs, who were having a laugh at the expense of gullible reporters. At the same time, they were performing the very valuable service of demonstrating that the average man-on-the-street, or even reporter, doesn't know enough science to put together a coherent argument for how he KNOWS the earth is round. In other words, most people "know" the earth is round only because their teachers told them so, and they believed it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Jun 02 - 12:39 PM Yeah, Graham, the Flat Earth Society is a spectacular demonstration of "common sense" and personal observation gone amuck! There was an elderly professor at the University of Toronto in '69 when I was there who was a lifetime member of the Flat Earth Society. He had all kinds of articles pinned up on his door, "proving" that the Earth is flat. Amazing stuff to read. He looked like John Brown, with the full beard...and was probably equally wacky. It's always a good idea to consult as many available sources as possible on any contentious issue, since one person's common sense may be another person's nonsense. Most sailors even in ancient times were well aware that the Earth was round, since they could plainly see the curvature of the Earth from the deck or mast of their ship in calm, clear weather. Even Columbus and his crew were well aware of it...despite Washington Irving's fictional nonsense to the contrary in his book about Columbus...after all, he was sailing west in order to reach China, wasn't he? That indicates a round Earth, obviously. He was however, mistaken in assuming that it was a considerably smaller Earth than it actually is. The reason his sailors grew fractious was not because they were afraid of "falling off the edge" but because they were afraid of running out of fresh water and food before reaching land! (A reasonable fear. If the Americas had not conveniently lain in their path, and there had been nothing but water between them and China, they would have died of thirst before ever getting there.) So, direct experience helps...but yes, it can be misinterpreted sometimes. I think what really scares people about planes is that the passenger has no control over the situation whatsoever...and the crashes frequently kill everyone on board. You're surrendering yourself to fate when you step on an airplane, and people don't like to do that. I'm surprised how few air crashes there are, considering how many planes are in the air every day. They must be very well trained and organized indeed. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: Grab Date: 13 Jun 02 - 11:06 AM Mrs. Lemon - that's called an immune system. Your kid's obviously got a pretty good one, which is lucky for him. Some kids aren't so lucky and would be dead or damaged by now, which is the reason for vaccinations. Little Hawk, re your "personal experience only" theories, I suggest you check out the Flat Earth Society for a laugh. Its basic tenet was that the Earth is flat and Antarctica is actually the rim. They based this on the fact that no-one had demonstrated Antarctica is a single continent by walking from one side to the other. All space research is therefore a massive conspiracy theory. Obviously they're wackos, but it shows what depths you can get to when you say "if I've not seen it, it ain't so". I guess you have to differentiate between faith based on the existence of scientific structures, heavy research, years of clinical tests and the like, as against faith without basis; and the relative benefits brought to the human race by both sides. Too many ppl aren't rational on this. To take an analogy, aviation has had some really bad crashes, but it doesn't alter the fact that it's safer to be flying than to be walking along the street! But ppl still say "I'm scared of flying bcos planes aren't safe". Similarly, medicine has cocked up very badly in the past (thalidomide would be an example of that), but it's still doing a damn sight better at keeping ppl alive than ANY traditional medicine system (AKA "folk remedies") has ever done. For proof of that, you only have to look at the population figures for any country before and after the adoption of vaccinations! Since this is the case, I'd be more inclined to trust the opinion of a modern medical doctor than someone who only knows folk remedies. I know that the medical doctor has the better part of a decade of training, that the treatments he provides have been through numerous clinical trials to find the nasty side-effects, that a system is in place to report any other side-effects which haven't been found during testing, that this system will also track all treatments to find which gives the best result for my illness, and that there is oversight of the doctor's actions in case what he does causes me harm. I do NOT know that any of this exists for any alternative medicine practitioners. Therefore my greater faith in the medical doctor than the alternative medicine guy would seem to have a pretty sound basis, at least for the moment until alternative medicine gets itself organised. I guess to some extent I'm also trusting the person to be competent - that they'll tell me all the facts about a treatment, and that they won't recommend a treatment that'll harm me or actively try to kill me for their own personal benefit. I don't know that there's any defense against this, bcos you have to accept that you're not an expert in the field and they are. Re specialists disagreeing with each other, that's bound to happen. As you yourself say, they have vested interests. But the emphasis is on each of them to prove their cases - usually the one going against the majority verdict has the tougher time. Which is as it should be - some revolutionary claims are true (eg. Pasteur's discovery of bacteria), but some are just bunkum (eg. Breatharianism), so you'd better have some decent evidence ready for your claim. And if you do come up with something revolutionary and have the evidence to hand (eg. pennicillin) then you can be sure that it will be accepted pretty damn quick. JohnInKansas's approach may be a bit OTT, but it's perfectly justified and rational. That's the same approach that an oversight/epidemiology check would be taking. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Jun 02 - 08:01 AM Another question is: Why don't some doctors trust their patients? (enough to keep them informed and to LISTEN to what they have to say) I have scoliosis, and I know EXACTLY what caused it to develop during my youth. I have tried to explain it to several different doctors and chiropractors, not one of whom listened seriously to what I had to say... They have their own preconceived ideas of what causes it...if they have any idea at all. Mind you, it doesn't really matter, cos they don't have a cure for it in any case. I find that yoga exercises and various stretches are the best remedy for easing up the muscle tension it causes. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: JohnInKansas Date: 13 Jun 02 - 12:07 AM I believe I have a reasonable degree of trust in my doctor, because she knows that: I will immediately review any diagnosis of any condition for which she recommends treatment in my current copy of the Merck Manual of Diagnostic Medicine (and possibly in one or more of my 9 earlier revisions). That I will be back immediately if I - and Merck - don't agree with either her diagnosis or recommended treatment. That I will not take any prescription until I have read and understood the applicable information in the Physician's Desk Reference. That I will have, and understand, a copy of every lab test that she prescribes for me, and will record and compare trends in lab results to verify (or refute) the efficacy of her presecribed treatment. That I will not accept any treatment that is not based on a diagnosis with which I agree. That I will tell her if I believe I have found a condition that requires her assistance - and that I expect her to respect, and confirm or refute my "diagnosis." I call it "self-defense," but it makes me feel reasonably secure. I suspect she calls me a "difficult patient." John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: the lemonade lady Date: 12 Jun 02 - 08:22 PM Just as a little update as to 'the boy's' "whooping cough"-he's had 5 doses of drosera and he's not vomiting quite so regularly now. His coughing fits are less; just limited to stressful moments like running a few yards or leaping about, as little boys like to do! There's a noticeable improvement. He helped us with some collecting of logs today-something he couldn't have done at the weekend. He'll be back to school on Monday! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Jun 02 - 05:31 PM Right on, Jack. Belief is a very powerful thing, particularly if it's belief at a deeper psychological level. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 12 Jun 02 - 04:23 PM Faith and Double Blind tests. Is it not a fact that in virtually all Double Blind tests a certian percentage see good results from the placebo? For many ailments, if you think it will help, IT WILL. Go read the disclaimers on virtually any prescription medicine. None claim to be 100% effective. Where does this lead us? If we are disinclined to trust our doctor, we are less likely to be cured. Because FAITH could allow us to be cured even by sugar pills. Interesting paradox? We need to educate ourselves about our conditions make sure that our doctors have our full cooperation and all the information they need. Then have some faith. BTW prayer is very effective if you believe in it. As is holistic medicine.
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Jun 02 - 03:34 PM Jim - Too bad we can't get together at the coffee shop and discuss this at some length... :-) Like I said, people's opinions are based on a mixture of faith, habit, and logic. The proportion of each in that mixture can be pretty crucial. Some people are highly logical, some only slightly logical, and some barely at all. When I use the word "faith" I'm not implying strictly the religious kind...but rather all forms of confidence that one may have in various notions or authoritative sources and structures. A lifelong Republican, for example, has a strong measure of faith in the merits of Republicanism. He will bring whatever logic he's capable of to bear in supporting that faith. His logic may still lead him astray, since it might be rather narrowly selective logic. Most people's logic is somewhat selective, and mirrors their prejudices. Even in the scientific community this is a very common problem. People have a tendency to cling to an accustomed position, and explain away or even dismiss hard evidence that appears to challenge that position. So when I say that faith plays a large part in forming people's opinions, that's what I mean...not just religious faith, but all forms of faith. Most people's view of reality is far less objective than they think it is. To realize this, and apply it in examining oneself as well as others, is to gain a certain measure of humility. I have often questioned my own longheld opinions by deliberately reading viewpoints that radically differ with my own...and sometimes this led me to eventually change my opinion. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: katlaughing Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:07 PM When I had my last child, 25 years ago, I almost died. I was in the labour room, she'd come fast and I was bleeding out. I had explicit faith in my doctor having grown up under his care and respect, plus he'd already delivered my other two children. I was dying. They couldn't get an IV line started to get the meds in to start my uterus contracting, in order to stop the bleeding. I was floating around above them ,watching with a sense of detachment, noting that it was my body they were working on. I remember being coherent for a moment, long enough to say to him, "Am I going to be okay?" I heard his strong, yet gentle voice, say "Yes, Kathleen, you will be fine." That was all I needed to hear. I had complete and utter faith in him and his abilities. Shortly after, I was back in my body, came to, and realised things were starting to get under control. Did my faith have anything to do with my recovery? I believe it did. I've worked in the health care field and I have seen the apathy of patients who do not feel as though anyone cares about them, or that have no faith in their doctors. They are the ones who have given up, who have no faith in anything. In one instance it didn't matter what kind of medical means we used to help a person, she gave up and died, for no good medical reason. I am positive, to this day, that had I not had the faith I did in my doctor, I might not have fought so to live, to hang around while they worked on me. Sure the meds and procedures helped, but there was some time there where I believe I was living through faith, alone, while they frantically tried to find someone who could get a line into my collapsed veins. My doc said I'd be okay and I believed him and so it was. There are many, many instances, written in books by medical doctors and others, which document the importance of some kind of faith, in the healing process. It is to our detriment if we do lend it credence, imo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: Jim Dixon Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:51 PM Little Hawk: Thank you for your long post at 5:29 PM. You now seem like a more reasonable person than you seemed before. Your mention of "faith" worried me. I GUESSED that you brought up the issue of faith because you were trying to say it's all a matter of faith; logic doesn't enter into it. Now you're telling me I guessed wrong and logic DOES enter into it. Well, it's reassuring to know that. So why DID you bring up faith? It seems to me the whole faith issue is a red herring. If we're ever going to get out of this mess, it's logic that will lead us out, not faith. So why is faith even worth mentioning in this context? If faith explains why some people are resistant to logic—well, I guess I knew that already, but I don't see how it helps. I know something about how to appeal to people through logic, but I don't know how to address their faith, and I have serious doubts that addressing their faith is a good idea. I'm glad to know you believe in sperm whales. I believe in sperm whales, too. I also believe in viruses, although I've never seen one of them, either. And I believe in insulin, although it looks just like a clear liquid to me. My reasons for believing in those things, and a lot more, are pretty much like your reason for believing in sperm whales. So where does that leave us? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Jun 02 - 11:53 AM Art - LOL! I think we have Shatnerization. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: Art Thieme Date: 11 Jun 02 - 10:44 PM Descarte goes into a bar. Bartender says, "Would you like a drink?" He answers, "I think not."------and he disappears. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: mousethief Date: 11 Jun 02 - 06:07 PM Currently no battles. Gathering my forces. Recuperating hit points. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Jun 02 - 05:57 PM Hey, Alex! How's it goin' in the "combat zone"? :-) (just kidding) - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: mousethief Date: 11 Jun 02 - 05:32 PM A fair nice bit of epistemology, LH. Well turned. [applause] Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Jun 02 - 05:29 PM Ha! Good one, Liz... :-) Jim - Read what I said again... "The only thing more powerful than that faith is direct experience, accompanied by accurate knowledge of what is actually happening." That is what the scientist in the lab has. Direct experience. That is what the patient has who has undergone a specific treatment, and seen the results. Direct Experience. That is also what the doctor, the acupuncturist, and the chiropractor have, regarding the treatment methods they use. As for those who do not have such direct experience, they are taking someone else's word on it...and how reliable that someone else is, is then the real question. I may consider him totally reliable, somewhat reliable, or not very reliable at all...and upon this I bring to bear my logic, and like you I am a very strong believer in logic! But I am an equally stronger believer in direct experience, which is more valuable than secondhand information, no matter how "authoritative" it appears. Do sperm whales exist? My sense of logic tells me that YES they do, although I have never actually seen one in the flesh. I have seen pictures of them, I've read books about them, I've seen films of them. Now...pictures, books and films can all be faked, can't they? However, my sense of logic tells me that it is virtually inconceivable that everyone from Hermann Melville to now...uncountable thousands of people...have all concocted a false story about sperm whales. Right? It would be highly illogical and paranoid to think so. So both you and I use our logic and we believe in sperm whales. We do so as a matter of faith, supported by a good deal of logic and common sense. Now are vaccinations, viagra, radiation treatments, and such a good idea? That's a much more complex and debatable matter than the existence of sperm whales. Accordingly, I am far less inclined to automatically have faith in those forms of treatment, despite the fact that a lot of present medical authorities support them. A lot of others do not. It depends whose book you CHOOSE to read. The conventional medical authorities have already been wrong in the past about a whole bunch of things (like bleeding people for every little ill...or like thalidomide), and I am not about to give them carte blanche now, plus there is some pretty compelling literature out there which presents a radically different viewpoint to theirs. My sense of logic has just as much to do with evaluating reality as yours does, I can assure you, and I ALWAYS bring logic to bear on any question that is in front of me. If direct experience contradicts what appears to be common logic, then there's a factor involved that is not commonly known or acknowledged, and further inquiry is necessary in that case. It was common knowledge in Rome that lining wine bottles with lead was completely harmless, and gave a good taste to the wine. They were dead WRONG about the "harmless" part. I reiterate my position that the ordinary man in the street bases most of his opinions on faith (supported by whatever amount of logic he is naturally inclined toward) and on what amounts to second or thirdhand information. Most opinions are based on a mixture of faith, habit, and logic. That's why people make that wisecrack "Opinions are like ***holes...everybody's got one." - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: katlaughing Date: 11 Jun 02 - 05:20 PM I was only quoting from them: The following satire is a humorous description of one man's interpretation of what happens when Western science attempts to understand a Chinese herb. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: Jim Dixon Date: 11 Jun 02 - 05:14 PM So that's an example of herbalist humor, huh? What herb do you have to smoke first to make that seem funny? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: katlaughing Date: 11 Jun 02 - 04:51 PM Art, I think you'll really enjoy this one: A humourous look at what happens when Western science tries to understand a Chinese herb. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 11 Jun 02 - 03:12 PM I think I always felt better after giving blood because I replaced the lost pint of red stuff with a pint or two of best bitter..... LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: mousethief Date: 11 Jun 02 - 03:11 PM Ditto on the well-said to L.P. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: katlaughing Date: 11 Jun 02 - 03:06 PM Well said, LadyP and Art, too, thanks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: lady penelope Date: 11 Jun 02 - 02:47 PM Here's another stick for the fire............ I think that there are valid therapies out there in the "alternative" medicine world. Several of them have even been tested by 'Scientific Method' and found to actually do what they are supposed to. Example, lavender essential oil. It does act as a calmative, it does help to lower blood pressure, it is anti bacterial. The British Medical Journal has articles on this, not to mention several hundred other medical publications / journals, never mind what you can find on the web. Let's not forget, asprin is only willow bark and digitalis is foxglove. I do think that herbal remedies ( especially when taken in the large doses recommended by some practitioners ) should be looked at as carefully as "normal" drugs. Just because it's 'natural', doesn't mean it's safe to use without caution. Rasberry leaves contain a high level of uterinal stimulants and shouldn't be ingested by pregnant women, for example. On the other hand,' western' medicine is now suffering because of a cavalier attitude to antibiotics. Over the course of the latter half of the 20th century, antibiotics were not only handed out at the drop of a sniffle ("just in case" attitude ) to humans, they are also now firmly entrenched in agriculture. We now are literally having to find things, other than antibiotics, that will kill bacteria ( not unlike the situation inthe 1920's ), as so many are now at least partially resistant to the antibiotics we have. In our hospitals we have a serious problem with "hospital aquired infections". This is generally "Methecillin Resistant Stapholococcus Aureus" ( MRSA ). Methicillin is the antibiotic given to patients ( especially those with open wounds ) when other antibiotics aren't working. Because of over perscription of this antibiotic by house doctors and surgeons, we now have a virulent strain that is a constant problem in every major hospital in Britain. In the microbiology lab where I work, I've seen the section that deals with this "bug" alone, go from being an afternoon job for one technician, to being a full section manned all week by one state registered Biomedical Scientist with two lab. assistants. Regardless of WHO gives the medical advice or WHAT form that treatment takes, medicine should be treated with a healthy (sorry) respect. This is why patients need good, consistant and most of all, accurate information when they are being treated. It should be given to them by their doctor, or else we end up going round in the circles that have started in this thread. I'll get me coat............. TTFN M'Lady P. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: Art Thieme Date: 11 Jun 02 - 12:48 PM This around and around discussion is nicely addressed in the film Contact. What we have here is what Carol and I have in our marriage, insurmountable differences in our world views of things faith based. We have solved it by not solving it---by agreeing to disagree. Some paradoxes simply must be taken note of -- stated as well as we can---and then left to hover in the air where folks like me and WUSSIEWYG can peacefully differ and, with little harm done (hopefully) move on our way... I like what you all are saying. Good polemics all. Some thruths are to be found therein. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: Jim Dixon Date: 11 Jun 02 - 11:44 AM Little Hawk: That's a pretty extreme philosophical position you're taking. You seem to be arguing that, since everyone has faith in something, that therefore all opinions are based on faith and not logic, and therefore all opinions are equal; there is no such thing as a good idea or a bad idea, and logic is irrelevant. Well, that's one way to get people to quit annoying you with logical arguments! But I can't believe you sincerely believe that. Surely even you are sometimes influenced by logic and insight. Surely sometimes even a person whom you have no particular "faith" in, can cause you to change your opinion by pointing out something you hadn't noticed or thought of before, but which makes perfect sense once you do think of it. Hasn't that ever happened to you? If so, I don't think you can say all your opinions are based on faith, or that all opinions are just a matter of deciding whom to have faith in. Science is NOT a matter of faith. That's why all science classes involve lab experiments. If science were taught as a matter of faith, it would be enough that you simply memorize equations like Boyle's law (PV = k) without ever doing the experiment yourself. The whole point of doing the experiment is so that you can see for yourself that Boyle's law is true; you don't have to trust anyone. And hopefully the idea will sink in that all scientific knowledge is simply the accumulated experience of thousands of people more or less like yourself doing experiments like this one, carefully analyzing the results, and carefully writing them up for other people to review, critique, and repeat. Apparently a lot of people go through the experience without ever "getting it." I wish I knew the solution to that problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Jun 02 - 08:46 AM Actually, bloodletting IS a good therapy...for certain forms of illness. It just isn't a good therapy for all forms of illness, which is where the "leeches" of earlier western medicine went horribly wrong. My father is presently getting some blood taken out at regular intervals (every 3 months, I think), in order to relieve some blood condition that was making him quite sick. I believe it's a situation of too much iron build-up in the blood. If some of the old blood is removed, then the body manufactures new plasma which is absolutely free of the iron, thus lowering the iron content in the blood overall. I believe there are also some other health problems which are relieved by occasional bloodletting. This all falls under the category of conventional western medicine, not alternative treatments. So the problem with the leeches was not that they bled people, but that they tried to make it a panacea...rather as present day doctors have tried to make the use of prescription drugs a panacea...with the encouragement, of course, of the pharmaceutical companies. Graham, unless you were there personally observing all that testing and experimentation by all those people in those labs which you allude to, and unless you were also thoroughly educated in the technical aspects of what you were observing...your opinion is based on faith. As is virtually everyone else's opinion. We all have faith in what seems most plausible to us. The only thing more powerful than that faith is direct experience, accompanied by accurate knowledge of what is actually happening. One person may see a light bulb turned on and say "It's a miracle!" Another may see it happen and say "It's black magic!" Another sees it happen and says "It's electricity." They are all calling it what their own life experience has prepared them to call it. But do any of them REALLY know what it is...? Just cos people have a convenient word for something, by golly, they think they know what it is. Usually they have only a fragmentary idea of what it is, if any idea at all. If they're used to it, they accept it, and think nothing of it. If they're not used to it, they look upon it with astonishment, curiosity, fear, or even complete denial. In these ways do people react to perfectly legitimate medical treatments with which they are (so far) unfamiliar. But if an authority they already TRUST tells them it's okay...then they usually accept it on faith. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: Grab Date: 11 Jun 02 - 07:14 AM Kat, my point was that blood-letting was Western "traditional" medicine. Medicine progressed beyond there, bcos ppl conducted proper studies to see what worked and what didn't. MDs share experiences of which therapies work and which don't, so that the central organisations can work out what's best practise and what should be scrapped. My worry with "alternative" therapies is whether there's anything corresponding to that, which can fulfill a similar function. For example, are Kat's acupuncturists changing what they use bcos a group of acupuncturists have researched many alternatives and found which ones work best in double-blind tests, or just bcos they can't get the other stuff? Also note that making you "feel better" or "seeming to work for you" is NOT a measurable criteria - as Liz says, blood-letting may make you feel great, but it's not a good therapy! :-) And if powdered rhino horn is genuinely the best remedy for some conditions (has anyone checked?), then maybe we should be farming rhinos to get enough of it! ;-) This is contrary to LH's talk of faith. LH says that the choice of therapies is based on all various cultural stuff. Frankly, I'd be more interested in choosing a therapy which worked! I don't have a baseless faith in Western medicine just bcos I've been told so, I have trust in it bcos I know that all the way up, there's ppl looking at which therapies work best. When "alternative" medicine has the same level of rigour in defining best practise, I'll be happy to have the same level of trust in it. Until that improves, I have little to base that trust on, which makes any such trust more of a matter of faith than rationality. I certainly won't rule it out, bcos there's plenty of anecdotal evidence that some of it works - the trouble is that it seems (to me at least) to be largely stuck at the same pre-scientific stage that medicine was before Victorian times. That NCCAM is certainly a big leap in the right direction (when I get time, I'll have a good look through that and see what the score is on all the various therapies - get myself properly educated on that). Graham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: fogie Date: 11 Jun 02 - 06:23 AM I cant understand why Mrs Lemons GP would be against confirming Pertussis if that what her children had. The alternative very similar viral infection is Respiratory Syncitial virus (do you know- I dont know if thats the way to spell it!.) I mean if the children havent been immunized thats where his statistics are knackered, not that they may have caught something that theres no cure for. I always remember the look on a local midwifes face when she realized that all her 4 kids had come down with measles at once. She didnt immunise them for similarly individual reasoning, and wondered why her caring GP seemed to throw up his hands in despair at her pleadings to help. Lets face it if youre not immunized the chances of catching the illness is greater, and the illness statistically is more lethal than the imms! Anyway I've always wanted to simply exclude those families who dont want to immunize, from the stats, after all its a free world, no matter that the illness if caught could cost the country lots more that the vacc. Perhaps the parents would pay for any extra treatment resulting from their decision to take an alternative view, just as we all have to pay for those rare side effects of vaccines on individuals via the NHS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 11 Jun 02 - 01:32 AM But we still practice blood letting after a fashion. I used to give blood, and I always felt fantastic the day after - physically as well as emotionally (1 in 7 blood type, Rh-, good deed for the month....). I can understand why it would be thought of as efficacious... if you've high blood pressure, why not get rid of some of it?! LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: katlaughing Date: 11 Jun 02 - 12:12 AM Sorry, Jon, my remarks were not directed at you. Of course Western med. has progressed beyond blood-letting. I was responding to Graham's reference to it and also to rhino-horn. I also believe the WHY is that Western medicine has by and large completely lost track of the person and the power of the mind and emotions to effect the body. We've seen it here, time and again. There are some Drs. who have written books about it and have made the connection, but most still do not. Trad. medicines always consider the person in an holistic sense, i.e. the mind, emotions, living situation, PLUS all of the physical stuff. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: Jon Freeman Date: 10 Jun 02 - 11:46 PM kat, Even though my posts have been largely "why not trust", I think one has to acknowledge things have moved on a lot since "blood letting" Overall, I think modern western medicine does have explanaitions for the functioning of the human body that make sense, understanding of which does seem to enable trained people to offer cures reasonably reliabliy... As far as I understand it alternative medicines do seem to work for many but they don't seem to always agree with western medicine. What seems to be missing is a big WHY? Could do with someone like Mark Cohen on that. Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: katlaughing Date: 10 Jun 02 - 11:34 PM It was so-called Western medicine which believed in blood-letting. There is also SO much more to TCM, Traditional Chinese Medicine, than the infamous rhino horn bullshit. And, what makes you think Chinese medicine does not progress? It adapts to the changing world. My accupunturist never uses animal parts, for instance. I've given western medicine all of my life and I don't like where it's brought me. What I have experienced, drat there's that direct experience LH mentioned, with TCM, has been much more efficacius AND my MD fully embraced my treatments in TCM and was as pleased with the results as I. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: Jon Freeman Date: 10 Jun 02 - 11:06 PM I will give one more in response to fogie... I can site a case where a friend of my mothers who actually worked within the health profession (as did Pip, she was a physiotherapist)... she had headaches and problems for a couple of years and trusted her GP who had her down as some kind of "mild nutcase with imagined symtoms"... turned out she had a brain tumour. She is still alive and I believe after a second op is doing fine but she would have been much better off if she hadn't have believed her own GP. Which leads me to... Those with supposedly minor mental health problems... It is strange range they are the case you cite with the most difficulty in accepting unless you consider... These people are, unless as in the case of the person I mentioned above who actually had a phyiscal problem to prove a point, are so easily branded "nuts". They have little means of proof on way or other. And it's so easy for the public to believe doctor's blunders without that proof when it is calimed "the patient has a mental problem"... Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Jun 02 - 10:40 PM Yes, and what I meant to say is this: People who have faith in conventional medicine (drugs, surgery, radiation, etc...) are acting out of faith just as much as people who have faith in alternative medicine (acupuncture, homeopathy, Ayurvedic techniques, hypnotherapy, colour therapy, aroma therapy, chiropractic, etc...ad infinitum). Somebody, some "authority" whom they decided to trust told them it works. Period. As for the "evidence"...there is a vast amount of it... both for and against both conventional and non-conventional methods of treatment. It just depends on whom you read, and whose opinion you trust the most. Furthermore, what is "conventional" in one society may be "unconventional" in another. Acupuncture is a part of conventional medicine in China. That's just one example. People usually read those authoritative sources which support a viewpoint they are ALREADY prejudiced in favour of...and they avoid reading opposing viewpoints or skim them contemptuously just so they can ridicule them afterward. That's how the human ego works. And that is precisely what is fueling the vigorous debates that arise on this thread and others like it. There is much of value in both conventional medicine and alternative medicine, and they would do best to pool their resources and help one another...as the wiser practitioners are doing already. My prejudice is against the AMA and the main medical establishment... Why? Because they've already got almost all the power, almost all the money, and almost all the perks that go with it. They don't need my help or anyone else's at this point. They run the friggin' show, and they intend to keep it that way. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: DonMeixner Date: 10 Jun 02 - 06:49 PM Graham, There is evidence that shows an incredibly small amout of children react very badly to the whooping cough/measles/chicken pox vacines. I was part of a team of technicians and therapists hired by the State of New York to develop a support system for a child with this allergic reaction caaused disability. This child was one of three in the state. Sure the numbers are minuscule but tell that to a Mom. My wife and I had serious second thoughts regarding our sons when they ad the vaccines. Don |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Jun 02 - 06:42 PM Graham, It's like the stuff the MD's do...some of it works, some of it doesn't. :-) Which method of treatment you decide to go for is a matter of faith, and how we acquire faith as we move through life is entirely unique to each individual, based on their cultural background, their parental influences, their religious mindset (if they are religious), the books they've read, and even in some rare cases direct experience!(Big Grin!!) - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: Grab Date: 10 Jun 02 - 12:44 PM Peg, I'm not sure where you get the stats about Indians and Chinese being so much more healthy. India in particular has problems with such nice things as typhoid and cholera due to the conditions in the slums there. I suggest you look at the stats for the ppl living in the ghettos and in the countryside, not the rich middle-class. And America's problems are caused by a failure of lifestyle to provide healthy diet and exercise, not by a failure of the medical profession - all the medics will tell any American who'll listen what the cause is, but if that 300lb Bud-drinking truck driver won't listen, then it's not the fault of the medical profession that the truck driver dies of a stroke or heart attack. I'd love to know on what basis you think the Chinese and Indian traditional systems have good, proven medical methods. Powered rhino horn for impotency is the most obvious one. I don't doubt that there's some useful stuff there, just as there was useful stuff in pre-1800s Western medicine, like Romans using amputation as battlefield surgery to prevent further blood-loss and infection, and various things like willow-bark (from which aspirin is derived). But equally there's a bunch of total nonsense like the belief in bleeding a person to improve their health. Until anyone cares to carry out proper studies to determine which bits of "traditional remedies" work, which are horseshit but don't hurt, and which are positively harmful, how do you know which one you're getting? That Kipling poem DMcG quotes is dead on the money. NCCAM (cheers for the link Kat) seems to be taking this the right way. But then there's the question, if NCCAM shows something doesn't work, do you trust them, or will you continue to rely on the anecdotal "evidence" supplied by the homeopath and say "well Indians have been using it for 1000 years so it must be right"? Remember that the same ppl also thought that the world was carried on the back of a turtle for much of those 1000 years... Basically, I don't doubt that *some* of it works. But until someone can tell me which bits work, which bits don't, and which bits will kill me if I try it, I'd be bloody worried about it. Western medicine says "up to now, this drug/therapy/surgery is the best technique we have for curing this disease/condition/injury" and if something comes along which is proved to be better, then that new method will become the new best-practise. Until you have some evidence, your belief in homeopathy or any other "alternative" medicine is simply religious faith, not a rational decision. Mrs Lemon, do you have the info about whooping cough vaccines causing problems with kids' brains? AFAIK there's been nothing, ever, that's come to a conclusion on that, and there's a helluva lot of evidence that says kids die of these diseases. There's also a lot of evidence that says your immune system is at its flat-out strongest when you're a baby, and you'll never be able to build up immunities as well in the future. Think on't. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: katlaughing Date: 08 Jun 02 - 07:14 PM For those who are intertested, there is a ton of information, at the National Institute of Health's National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine. This was a major breakthrough when our government became open-minded enough to begin studies of alternative methods. There is some very interesting stuff on accupuncture, I noticed. Haven't had time to explore the rest, yet. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: the lemonade lady Date: 08 Jun 02 - 03:44 PM None of my children had the Wooping Cough vaccine because I didn't want to play Russian Rulette with their brains. We used a homeopathic remedy called Pertussin for the prevention of the cough for the two girls. My homeopath sent me some Drosera for Joe and he's had an easier day today. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Jun 02 - 02:04 PM Yeah, I suspect the real problem is not so much with doctors but with the educational and social system that produces those doctors and shapes their attitudes. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: DonMeixner Date: 08 Jun 02 - 12:58 PM I have had nothing but exceptional medical treatment in my life. I trust the skill of my Docs because I take the responsibility to check them out. My mother the nurse did this for me whan I was very young. The one thing I don't trust Doctors to know is rehab techniques or the lates therapies. I don't think it is reasonable to expect the Doc to know this stuff. When I have a medical question I ask a Doctor. When I have a rehab question I ask people who may have had a similar experience and seek a direction from them. The end result of their advice is mine to accept or deny but the responsibility is mine alone. Which is as it should be. Don |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: DougR Date: 08 Jun 02 - 12:48 PM Some people do. I do. I'm sure some people have suffered because of poor medical advice or treatment, but I certainly am inclined to trust the doctors I have. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: DMcG Date: 08 Jun 02 - 11:24 AM I'm in the UK and have an excellent doctor who has treated the whole family for about 18 years now. Although in the past copule of years it has started to take a couple of days before we could see her, previously she would just extend her working day to see anyone who needed her and even now with the appointment system she will take as much time as you want. However, in the last month three members of my family have been referred by her to the local Hospital. * I had severe, sharp chest pains: they did ECGs and tested me for a major lung clot, but they couldn't find anything so sent me away without further medication or treatment * My daughter has had a strange pain in the left side of her waist. After urine tests and examination they couldn't find anything so they sent her away without any further medication * My son's had a knee problem: an MRI scan didn't show any problem so they can't find anything either - but at least he is getting physio. In each case, the approach seems to be that if the tests don't reveal a problem then there is no problem, even is we are still in pain. One of us might be a hypercondriac but three of us seems a bit unlikely! Even so, I'd still always go for doctors than folk-based medicines. As Kipling put it
Wonderful little, when all is said |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors? From: lady penelope Date: 08 Jun 02 - 06:52 AM I think part of the trouble with doctors is, that to become one you need to be accademically very bright and also believe in yourself to the point of arrogance ( some go too far on this ). This combination, plus very little training in "bed side manner" more often than not leaves us with a doctor that can be far too confident and has no particular urge to "share" with their patients, or the "doctor knows best" syndrome. Occasionally we get doctors who remember that they are human beings the same as the rest of us, but not often enough. I work in a teaching hospital, where potential doctors are trained in their craft. It can be down right scary, knowing that these people, regardless of how badly they handle patients ( or even just people in general ), will be given a medical degree and let loose on the public. I think HOW we train and socialise doctors is a large part of the problem. In Britain especially, GP's are very much left to their own devices, they are not encouraged to cross consult with other doctors on difficult cases and quite often, due to lack of finance / time / resourses, physically can't. This ends up giving you three types of GP.s. Those who refer at the drop of a hat, those who will hand out drugs like sweeties in the hopes that they'll finally figure it out and those who won't refer you even when they should. Lump this together with not being able to actually see your doctor for weeks on end and it becomes no surprise as to why people neither trust nor want to go to their GP. What makes it really bad is when you have a really good doctor and your local health authority muck him about so much that he leaves! Many GP.s and doctors in hospitals leave their patients in the dark even after requests for information. Then they wonder why the patient chooses to do something that may not be in their best interests, or they may just never see the patient again! I'm not saying that there aren't patients who will do anything to avoid either knowing about or dealing with a problem they have, but I think the majority of people are just plain lacking in sufficient information and nervous of what may or may not be happening to them. I think being able to talk to other people who may have been through the same thing as you are, at least gives you some direction to what action you want to take. If you don't know anything about a situation how can you make a decision on what to do? TTFN M'Lady P. |