BS: Catholic come all-ye

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 02:08 PM

Anyone know much about this fellow?
a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7054181.ece">http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7054181.ece

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 02:08 PM

...we both know there isn't such evidence ...

Q.E.D. Thanks for the admission, Jim. Now you can shut the fu$k up.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 01:55 PM

We all know how one can play the statistics game to lesson offensive actions in a defense argument. But, on the statistic, the estimates of prevalence of child abuse includes abuse by immediate and extended family members, which account for the overwhelming majority of child sex abuse cases.

If you were to remove family members from the equation and only look at children who were sexually abused by non-family trusted professionals...many who have broad contact with children... one may find that the prevalence of abuse by catholic priests may in fact be disproportionate to the amount of contact they have with children.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 01:49 PM

A RC follower recently told me that because of recent RC reforms that "a child is less likely to be abused by a Catholic priest then abused by the members of almost any other profession.

Comment: Maybe so, but,is it not a little too late?

As to the "ofen" RC quoted" 5 percent RC priest child sex abuse figure,(I have also seen this # suspiciously quoted as finely as 5.1%) compared to a higher percentage liklihood of a child being sexually abused in the general population. Is this the best aspiration that the RC church can offer that "if you were one of us,(and possibly abused), you were less worse off than the general folks abused in society?" Kind of like saying "I beat my wife less often than my skuzzy beer slugging neighbour."

(BTW, considering the #s of priests in the world...then add on the ones who got away with it without being reported or found out...and considering sexual abuse reporting is low, and possibly even lower in the RC church (with the stigma).., that's a lot of kinky priests)

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 12:42 PM

"Also, please cite the evidence that shows what the incidence of child abuse is for the world at large."
Now you appear to be on the run - we both know there isn't such evidence and we have to base our knowlege on what has been gathered at the present time.
I've shown you mine, based on recently and officially gathered evidence on one institution - The Catholic Church - now you show me yours.
We have direct evidence that long term abuse over a long period took place at least over - that is our knowledge to date, unless you are able to top it The Catholic Church is hands down winner in the child abuse stakes - something to be proud of no doubt!
The rest is bullshit wiggle.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 11:34 AM

It just occurred to me that it is possible that the Catholic church, as an institution, may be stuck a few generations back where fathers used to be.

Let's see if I can say that better:

Not long ago at all, historically speaking, the head male of a household was the one who made the rules and saw to it that they were carried out. Not only was his own wife subject to his whims and opinions but the children were considered by him - and by law - to be his.

It is only very recently, historically speaking, that the teen years have been recognized as a discrete stage of life with separate and distinct needs.

Children historically have been considered powerless and their only function, really, was to serve.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this but my point is that the Church, as head of the Family, may have got into the mindset of seeing the people as powerless and expendable.

'Expendable' is not the word I want- can anyone help me out with this? :)

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 11:29 AM

Based on the evidence available, there is no organisation anywhere with a record of child abuse to match that of the Catholic Church.

Evidence to support this assertion, please. Especially RE: the other organisations.

Also, please cite the evidence that shows what the incidence of child abuse is for the world at large.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 11:06 AM

"If you can't read and understand my questions, then there's no point in any further attempts at engagement with you."
I understand your question perfectly and have answered it on the evidence gathered so far.
Based on the evidence available, there is no organisation anywhere with a record of child abuse to match that of the Catholic Church.
To date, where the Catholic Church has been investigated in the matter of child abuse, it has been found guilty to a horrific extent. I have little doubt that if those investigations are extended, as seems likely that similar abuses will be uncovered elsewhere - it appears to go with the territory.
Similar accusations have been made in Cyprus, Germany, Switzerland and Canada, though no full-scale investigations have yet taken place in these countries.
Now perhaps you would like to provide us with other denominations, or secular bodies for that matter, where child abuse is as endemic as it has been discovered to be in the Catholic Church.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 09:59 AM

Jim, the Roman Catholic Church establishment is a bit larger than just Ireland, last time I looked.

If you can't read and understand my questions, then there's no point in any further attempts at engagement with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 05:59 AM

"Well, gee, Jim, I don't know how it is around you"
Child molestation take place everywhere, but not habitually in one institution and not on the scale it has in the church.
I ask again - I will clarify in order that you don't try and dodge the question again
If widespread sexual abuse had taken place in schools throuhghout the education system and if the collegues of the abusers had ignored what was happening, the school authorities had hidden and not reported them to the appropriate authorities and had pressurised the pupils and parents into signing a pledge of silence, and then moved the offending teachers on to other posts where they were free to continue that abuse - what do you feel should happen to ALL the guilty parties, abusers and accomplices?
A straight answer would be appreciated please.
The monolithic side of the question is explicity in the fact that the abuse wasd endemic and fully accepted throughout the church - from pries to pope (not forgetting the abused altar-boys).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 03:33 AM

"Next contestant??? "
Oh please! Don't scamper away with your tail between your legs.
You asked for proof that the Catholic Church has more pederasts than any other religious denomination - I say it has in Ireland and give you the evidence of the Ryan and Murphy reports and ask you to name one other oganisation that can be shown to have more.
I add that it probably has where the church has any influence.
Where have I not answered your question and where have you answered mine?
Fact - the Catholic Church in Ireland, and, as it is now emerging, in other countries where it has influence, harboured one of the most successful and well-organised paedophile rings ever.
Not only were clergymen allowed to rape ands sexually and physically assault children for decades, but, if their 'little weaknesses' (the sexual ones - the beatings were taken as suitable forms of 'correction') came to public attention, they were protected by the silence of their fellow-clergymen and superiors and passed through the system to other locations, where they continued 'the good work'.
Their victims and families were sworn to secrecy by a church that was well used to using spiritual blackmail and political influence.
When these facts were placed before the present head of the church, his response was that the interests of the church and the welfare of the abusive priests had to be taken into consideration - and he did nothing. His response from the beginning of the exposures has been to keep it an 'in-house' matter rather than report these crimes to the authorities.
If you can show me that none of this happened, or can name one other organisation, secular or sacred, who ran, or was in a position to run such an organisation and behave like this, you have your victory and are welcome to it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 03:09 AM

Smokey, if you could look at the criminal records of the people around you, you will find that one in twenty has committed some sort of crime that you would consider horrible. So, do you go through life not trusting the people around you, since one in twenty is a criminal? Yes, it is certainly a reason to be watchful - but certainly not a valid reason for abandoning human trust.

Jim Carroll asks: You did not answer my earlier question; (if I have missed it, please point your answer out) if this had taken place within the education system, what would your reaction be?

Well, gee, Jim, I don't know how it is around you, but I DO know that abuse and molestation takes place all the time in the U.S. educational system. In the past year in my area, there have been several cases of child molestation reported in public schools, and not one in Catholic institutions. Does this mean that Catholic church here is squeaky-clean? Certainly not - but I do think the Catholic Church in the U.S. has done a lot to clean up its mess and make it difficult for child molesters to continue committing their crimes in the Church.

I think maybe your main fallacy is that you see the Catholic Church as monolithic, with a uniform and rigid discipline. If such were the case, then any incident of child abuse or molestation would indeed be a sure sign of failure of the entire church. But the Church isn't monolithic, and its discipline is far from rigid. The Catholic Church encompasses a far broader spectrum of thought and discipline than almost any institution I can think of. Think of it: Mary Garvey and I are both Catholics in good standing - but we rarely agree on anything, especially on religious issues (although I like and respect her, and I hope she has the same attitude about me).

I think I could argue that crime is an unfortunate side effect of freedom. I do oppose crime, especially crimes against children; but I also think there needs to be some moderation in our efforts to control crime, so that we do not destroy our own freedom in the process. And believe me, I couldn't be a Catholic if I didn't think I had the freedom to think and act as I see fit. Many people see religious creeds merely as authority systems. I'm sorry to disappoint them, but "authority" and "obedience" are not in my religious vocabulary. The Catholic tradition is an extremely important part of the essence of my life - but I see no obligation to obey ANY religious authority other than my own conscience.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 08:57 PM

Of course I can't prove Catholic dominance in the 'pederast stakes' elsewhere...

Well, then, Jim,me boy - you can't and haven't answered my questions.

So give it up.

Next contestant???

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 08:56 PM

If one in twenty priests are abusers, how can the other nineteen reasonably expect to be trusted? That isn't condemnation, it's common sense. The abusers have committed a crime, at least a moral one, against their church and fellow clergy as well as their victims so far as I can see. The rotten apples were left in the barrel too long.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 08:17 PM

Where do I get my five percent number? www.bishop.accountability.org (click) has a data page that gives pretty good information. The overall number they give is 5.1 percent of US priests were accused of child molestation, but some dioceses had ten percent.

Jim, I know that politicians commit political suicide in the United States if they oppose the spending of money to punish criminals. It's a favorite tactic of failed politicians, to hit hard on crime because nobody can dare oppose them. But the fact of the matter is that crime is not the only issue that confronts us, and crime is irrelevant to most of us, most of the time.

The crime that took place in the Catholic Church is a horrible thing - but it does not justify your irrational blanket condemnations.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 07:53 PM

"Jim, you seem so reasonable and analytical on most topics - but on this one, you come out with a shotgun. I'd like to see a rational discussion of this topic, but all you can do is blast away with your blanket condemnations."
Joe,
Please look at what happened and is still happening here.
Over at the very least fifty years members of the church systematically and without check brutalised and raped children in their care.
This behaviour, (only when it leaked to the outside world) was dealt with with secrecy by the church, despite the fact that the clergy involved had commited criminal acts. The officers of the church bullied the victims and their families into silence.
The priests involved were moved on to continue their abuse.
It transpires that many leading churchmen were part of the cover-up, yet, the few who have eventually resigned did so reluctantly and with extremely bad grace.
While expressing 'sadness' at no time has the church leadership taken responsibility for the crimes committed under the cover of the church.
A couple of weeks ago a group of victims stood up in church to protest the presece of a clergman who was involved in the cover-ups - they were booed and barracked out of the church by the congregation.
If this didn't happen, please tell me where I have got it wrong.
I find all this utterly and completely outrageous - what is unreasonable about that? What, of what I have just written, did not happen?   
You did not answer my earlier question; (if I have missed it, please point your answer out) if this had taken place within the education system, what would your reaction be?
I grew up in non-catholic England where the power of the church was much less than it is here in Ireland - even so, as the child of an excommunicated Catholic father (for opposing fascism in Spain), I was fully aware from an early age of the fear invoked by the church and the clergy. I saw that fear in my mother and in my Irish relatives when I visited them here and in the UK.
I have no wish to see the church disappear - I have associated with older Irish Catholics enough to know the important part it played in their lives. But I never again want to see it attain the hold over peoples minds and lives that it once had.
In the light of past events is that unreasonable?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 06:59 PM

Let's see...we can blame the media, the gays, the Jews (twas done by an elderly retired cardinal I think), not the Beatles, the nuns are getting too uppity. Anyone else? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 06:41 PM

I agree with Smokey... 5% is one out of 20... that could mean odds of a problem in almost every diocese. Granting that the 5% can mean more in some places and none at all in many, it will still take a huge effort to both find current problems and guard against future problems....and this is apart from the effort to regain public confidence.

   Decades of denial won't be undone in months. It is sad, no matter what one's view of religion in general is.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 06:11 PM

HOWEVER, this situation took place in a correctional system

The Industrial Schools were orphanages, and orphans don't need corrected.

Joe, stop trying to defend the indefensible. Defend the ordinary Catholics, who didn't know this was going on. Point out that abuse was rife in all child care whether religious (of any sect) or secular until recently- and is CERTAINLY still going on. Defend the majority bof decent folks in the priesthood- but recognise that they were all too often silent about what they knew. But DON'T defend the hierarchy- who had the power to stop it at any time, and demeaned and indeed criminalised not only themselves but YOU- the Catholic rank and file- by failing to use their powers when one word could have stopped unimaginable suffering, and delivered the criminals to justice. They've failed you and the children, and better that a millstone etc.

We see a high ranking cardinal squirming to avoid institutional responsibility again today- it's all the fault of the gays. If he isn't busted to the ranks by next Tuesday (don't hold your breath), you'll know where Nazinger's priorities lie, and lie, and lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 06:09 PM

If my local school or child minding service were to advertise the fact that only five (or ten) percent of their staff were known child abusers, what should I do?

It's not rocket science.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 05:17 PM

Jim, you seem so reasonable and analytical on most topics - but on this one, you come out with a shotgun. I'd like to see a rational discussion of this topic, but all you can do is blast away with your blanket condemnations.

Nobody is trying to deny any of the allegations that have been made with some evidence, but it would be refreshing to see some balance and proportion in the discussion. The Murphy and Ryan Reports are indeed a serious and factual condemnation of the abuse in the Irish industrial schools and reformatories. These institutions, which were operated for the Irish government by religious brothers and nuns, did appear to have a culture of abuse. I have no question that this was extreme wrongdoing, and reparations must be made and those who committed crimes must be punished.

HOWEVER, this situation took place in a correctional system, and correctional systems have problems that are not necessarily a reflection of the wider community. Were these institutions operated by the entire Catholic Church and were all priests and nuns involved in the operation of these institutions? Certainly not. A very small percentage of the priests and nuns of Ireland worked in these institutions, and the rest were most probably unaware of the situation - it's rare that normal citizens have much awareness of what goes on in their penal institutions. In many countries, priests and nuns serve as agents for penal reform because they visit such institutions as chaplains and witness and report abuses. In the Irish system, priests and nuns and brothers were the staff - so there were no visiting chaplains to discover and report problems.

I do not deny that things went horribly wrong in these institutions, and those responsible should be punished and the victims compensated. You look at the problem, find out who was responsible, and deal with the problem. And it does seem to me that in these institutions, abuse was the rule, not the exception to the rule. Most of the abuse consisted of corporal punishment and a draconian system of discipline. This system allowed sexual abuse to exist under the cover of a discipline system that did not allow questioning, but it does not appear from the reports that sexual abuse was anywhere near universal. Look at the facts, and deal with the problem.

Local Irish parishes were quite another situation, and we are only beginning to learn the extent of the problem of sexual abuse in parish churches. It does appear that there was an organized effort on the part of several successive Archbishops of Dublin and Primates of Ireland (Armagh), to cover up all information about sexual abuse in the Catholic Church (to protect the Church from "scandal"; and this secrecy allowed child molesters to operate quite freely. The attempt to protect the Church from scandal has involved it in a far greater scandal, one of unimaginable proportion - I think we will find this scandal was worst in Ireland, because the attitudes and discipline of the Catholic Church in Ireland are far more severe than they are in the Catholic Church anywhere else in the world.

Still, I have many friends who are Irish-born priests and nuns, and they tell quite a different story about growing up Catholic in Ireland. Most of the Irish-born priests I know are about my age, in their 60s, and they came to the United States from 1960-75. The nuns are older, age 65-85, and came to the U.S. from 1950-70 - all are members of an American branch of the Sisters of Mercy. Since this has been such a hot topic here for so long, I questioned many of them about what it was like to grow up Catholic in Ireland. They all had experiences similar to mine - mostly positive, some negative, no contact with molesters (although some had heard rumors of sexual abuse incidents). Somebody told me that Irish priests and nuns came from the middle class, and that the abuse targeted only the lower class in Ireland - but the Irish-born priests and nuns I know, did not generally come from the upper classes. Mind you, the nuns are currently not disposed toward having a good opinion of the Catholic Church these days, because the Vatican is currently conducting an investigation of women religious in the US, and the nuns are livid about it.

I haven't seen data on the extent of the physical and sexual abuse of children in the Catholic Church in Ireland. It appears that the problem was widespread, but certainly not universal. From what I've seen, I would guess that the number of priests in Ireland who are guilty of abuse, will be less than ten percent. That's still a huge number, but certainly not enough to justify Jim Carroll's statement, "the real mystery is why the Catholic Church is allowed anywhere near children given the atrocities committed by the clergy."

You're not going to control crime with an hysterical approach. You have to deal with it realistically and rationally. I'm afraid I have to say that several people here have nothing to offer the discussion but hysteria.

Too bad.

-Joe-

Ed T asks this about a qote from me:

Joe: "the vast majority of parishes had no such crimes, and the vast majority of bishops did not cover up the crimes that happened in their dioceses. Please remember that the number of priest-molesters was about five percent. I have no data on the number of bishops who covered up crimes - but I suspect the number is far lower than people might think".

Ed: Where is the proof of all that?

Ed, the best data I've found is at http://www.bishop-accountability.org/. Their approach is far harsher then mine, and they include priests on their lists that have not been proved to be molesters - but their data will give you an idea of the numbers involved. From all that I've read on this crisis, it appears that five percent is about the number of priest-molesters in the U.S. I suspect it will be higher in Ireland and other "Catholic" countries, and lower where Catholics are a minority.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 03:45 PM

Here is an elephant.            It is very like the elephant that all posters to both current threads on sexual abuse of young people have been ignoring.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 03:10 PM

Gotcha!
"I'd like to see the evidence that the Roman Catholic Clergy has a numerical superiority in pederasts over any other religious denomination or for that matter the population at large."
Here in Ireland - absolutely - Ireland is a Catholic country (the jury is out on how long that will remain the case) and the church has just been found guilty of carrying out and covering up horrific crimes against children under its influence.
Of course I can't prove Catholic dominance in the 'pederast stakes' elsewhere, but I would have thought that anywhere where the church held the power that it once had here and in other Catholic countries, it would have had no hesitation in abusing those powers - simply because it could.
Do you have evidence that other churches have been able to best the RC record - if so, let's hear them?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 12:34 PM

Jim:

See 13 Apr 10 - 11:31 AM, Below

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 12:26 PM

"Ya gonna get around to addressing my questions with factual information any time soon, Jim? "
What 'factual' information are you looking for? The habitual rapes and sexual abuse is a matter of record - see the Murphy and the Ryan reports (I suggest you let your own fingers do the walking on that one) but to give you a hand www.childabusecommission.ie/rpt/ .
If you are suggesting that other churches exceeded the Catholic score - fine by me - why aren't they banged up as the RC perpetrators should be?
What is your point - that none of it happened, or it was ok that it did because other churches were at it as well?
Jim Carroll
PS - Failing to find an concise summary of the report - here is the nearest bite-size one I could come up with.

'Endemic' rape and abuse of Irish children in Catholic care, inquiry finds
Beatings and humiliation by nuns and priests were common at institutions that held up to 30,000 children, Ryan report states

Rape and sexual molestation were "endemic" in Irish Catholic church-run industrial schools and orphanages, a report revealed today.
The nine-year investigation found that Catholic priests and nuns for decades terrorised thousands of boys and girls in the Irish Republic, while government inspectors failed to stop the chronic beatings, rape and humiliation.
The high court judge Sean Ryan today unveiled the 2,600-page final report of Ireland's commission into child abuse, which drew on testimony from thousands of former inmates and officials from more than 250 church-run institutions. Police were called to the news conference amid angry scenes as victims were prevented from attending.
More than 30,000 children deemed to be petty thieves, truants or from dysfunctional families – a category that often included unmarried mothers – were sent to Ireland's austere network of industrial schools, reformatories, orphanages and hostels from the 1930s until the last facilities shut in the 1990s.
The findings prompted the new Archbishop of Westminster, the Most Rev Vincent Nichols, to say that it took "courage" for those clergy involved in child sex abuse to confront their actions. In an interview to be broadcast tonight on ITV News at Ten, he said: "I think of those in religious orders and some of the clergy in Dublin who have to face these facts from their past which instinctively and quite naturally they'd rather not look at. That takes courage, and also we shouldn't forget that this account today will also overshadow all of the good that they also did."
The Irish Survivors of Child Abuse (Isoca), an organisation set up to help victims, condemned the newly appointed head of the Catholic Church in England and Wales for his remarks.
"Rubbish is too kind of word for what the archbishop has said. I believe I have heard this kind of twaddle uttered by politicians in Ireland like Bertie Ahern, the former prime minister. It is the verbiage of un-reason and it leaves me cold. What the Archbishop really has to do is take a long hard look at the character and nature of the people he is talking about and ask himself if they are capable of being good," said Patrick Walsh.
The report found that molestation and rape were "endemic" in boys' facilities, chiefly run by the Christian Brothers order, and supervisors pursued policies that increased the danger. Girls supervised by orders of nuns, chiefly the Sisters of Mercy, suffered much less sexual abuse but instead endured frequent assaults and humiliation designed to make them feel worthless.
"In some schools a high level of ritualised beating was routine ... Girls were struck with implements designed to maximise pain and were struck on all parts of the body," the report said. "Personal and family denigration was widespread."
The report concluded that when confronted with evidence of sex abuse, religious authorities responded by transferring offenders to another location, where in many instances they were free to abuse again.
"There was evidence that such men took up teaching positions sometimes within days of receiving dispensations because of serious allegations or admissions of sexual abuse," the report said. "The safety of children in general was not a consideration."
The Catholic church had been steeling itself for the report, which was repeatedly delayed by church lawsuits, missing documentation and alleged government obstruction.
The Christian Brothers delayed the investigation for more than a year with a lawsuit that successfully defended their members' right to anonymity in all references in the report, even in cases in which individual Christian Brothers had been convicted of sexual and physical attacks on children.
The church had already been under fire over the sexual misbehaviour of several priests in various Irish parishes. The commission's experts have sought to produce a comprehensive portrait of sexual, physical and emotional damage inflicted on the child victims. The thousands of survivors said they had no safe way to tell their stories until the investigation began because much of Irish Catholic society regarded them as liars.
Isoca today said it was now up to the Vatican to investigate its religious orders in the republic.
John Kelly, the Isoca co-ordinator in Dublin, said: "Now that the Ryan [Laffoy] commission is finished, we call upon ... Pope Benedict XVI to convene a special consistory court to fully investigate the activities of the Catholic religious orders in Ireland.
"Amongst other things, such a court could establish the whereabouts of Irish state assets that were misappropriated over many years by the religious orders and make restitution to the Irish state exchequer."
During the commission's investigations, oral evidence was collected from more than 1,000 people, mainly aged from their 50s to 70s.
Several hundred travelled back to Ireland from the US and Australia to describe their childhood of terror and intimidation.
One victim, John Walsh, of Isoca, called the report a hatchet job that left open wounds gaping. "The little comfort we have is the knowledge that it vindicated the victims who were raped and sexually abused," he said.
"I'm very angry, very bitter, and feel cheated and deceived. I would have never opened my wounds if I'd known this was going to be the end result. It has devastated me and will devastate most victims because there is no criminal proceedings and no accountability whatsoever."
The commission's original judge, Mary Laffoy, resigned from her post in 2003 over claims that the Irish department of education – which was in charge of inspecting the orphanages and industrial schools – was refusing to hand over documents to her.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Mooh
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 10:57 AM

I've known quite a few CofE/Anglican/Episcopalian priests over the years (in New Zealand, Scotland and England) and I'd estimate that more than half of them were gay.
Based on what?

Based on them telling me. You can be a gay priest in the CofE (in the places I've lived, anyway) without anybody being very bothered about it. And that's been the case for decades.

Seems like a high percentage to me, but I'll take your word for it.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 10:40 AM

Ya gonna get around to addressing my questions with factual information any time soon, Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 10:18 AM

PS - Even if I accepted the five percent figure, which I don't, or not without some proof to back it up, considering the size of the Catholic Church that's a lot of abuse by a lot of people.
Jim Carrill

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 08:05 AM

Five percent Joe - where did that come from? I get a little tired in pointing out the extent and time limits of the two enquiries held so far.
As far as the cover-up - that extended from fellow priests to, directly, at least three Popes.
It wasn't just a few abuses but a whole culture of abuse - accepted and covered up.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 07:36 AM

"the vast majority of parishes had no such crimes, and the vast majority of bishops did not cover up the crimes that happened in their dioceses. Please remember that the number of priest-molesters was about five percent. I have no data on the number of bishops who covered up crimes - but I suspect the number is far lower than people might think".

Where is the proof of all that?

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 06:12 AM

The situation in Ireland is factual, all right. Plenty of proof out there if you care to look.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 05:46 AM

"The situation you cite in Ireland - if factual- doesn't answer the questions I asked. Try again."
The situation in Ireland is most certainly factual - and becoming more so as further information is winkled out.
Is there any proof that The Catholic church is the worst? It is the one that has been examined and found very much wanting; if it is not the worst then a question-mark has been placed over all religions - which is fine by me. The behaviour of the Catholic clergy (as a whole) is horrific enough to condemn it to its own hell - even if it continues to evade earthly justice.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:47 PM

There was an Isaac Asimov story about that -- the planet where everybody lived miles from the next person, and they talked by the 1950s equivalent of Skype™ video. Seemed an unfortunate place. But no doubt safer than here. Although the novel was about a murder on said planet, so maybe not.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:41 PM

Adult males should not be alone with children. Neither should adult females

Presumably children shouldn't be alone with other children either, given some of the stuff that can happen.

Groups of people can do pretty awful stuiff too.

Maybe if everyone avoids being in anybody else's company at anytime, that would be best.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:34 PM

Jim Carroll:

The situation you cite in Ireland - if factual- doesn't answer the questions I asked. Try again.

Mary:

Does anyone really think that if this is happening in Norway and the Netherlands that is not really happening ......I am under the impression.....

To hell with your "impressions" & what you, and others, subjectively suppose- what can you document?

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: GUEST,MG
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:10 PM

Adult males should not be alone with children. Neither should adult females, some of whom are monsters. Everyone pretty much knows that. For their own protection as well as that of children.

And here is a story about my theology or philosophy professor at my Alma Mater, Seattle University..Father Toulouse.

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/the-pedophiles-paradise/Content?oid=1065017

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:07 PM

Click here for the database of bishop-accountability.org. This is an organization that is very critical of the bishops' handling of the sex abuse crisis in the Catholic Church in the U.S. This database attempts to keep track of all the accusations against priests in the US, and their handling and disposition.
As you can see, there are lots of instances where the cases were horribly mishandled. BUT you will also see that most of the time, the bishops did deal with the cases, and did not cover them up. Many, many cases were referred to law enforcement authorities for prosecution, and many of these molesters were convicted of criminal offenses. There were coverups, but the coverups were relatively rare.
There is no excuse for the crimes and coverups that did occur - but it is important to remember that, as with any crime, the vast majority of people did not participate in the crime in any way. It's easy to get a distorted view of crime from the newspapers, and some people live in constant fear of crime because of what they read.
Politicians are constantly accusing each other of being "soft on crime" - but the fact of the matter is that almost nobody approves of crime. Different people deal with crime in different ways. It IS a serious problem, but life goes on despite it.
The sex crimes in the Catholic Church ARE a serious problem - but those crimes are no reason for people to stop feeding the hungry and visiting the sick and burying the dead. Life goes on, despite crime. And most people, aren't criminals.

Jim Carroll, with his usual dramatic flair, says, "the real mystery is why the Catholic Church is allowed anywhere near children given the atrocities committed by the clergy." Following Jim's flawless logic, I suppose one could also say, "the real mystery is why adult males are allowed anywhere near children given the atrocities committed by adult males." The percentage of adult males committing crimes against children, is about the same as the percentage of Catholic priests committing those crimes - even in Ireland.

Now, Jim, let me make it clear that I do not approve of crimes against children in any way. I just think it is unfair to suspect every priest or every member of any class* of such crimes. If the crimes are committed, then prosecute the criminals - not their families, not their neighbors, and not their religious affiliations.

-Joe Offer-


*class: any group of people having some characteristic in common. This word is sometimes used to refer to social and economic classes, but that is not the only meaning of the word.

Emma - your "document trail" referred to the same case for which Mary Garvey condemns the Pope. I was referring to Mary's comments, not to yours. It may be that the Pope was guilty of wrongdoing in connection with the child abuse and molestation - that has yet to be proved.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 05:22 PM

"Evidence...."
The evidence is in two official reports published and accepted both by the church and the Irish State. Try googling The Ryan and Murphy reports, then Letterfrack and Ferns Industrial schools, that'll give you a head start. There are other investigatiions in the offing in diocese not yet investigated, not to mention the behaviour of those who had charge of the young women in the Magdalene Laundries who were sexually and physically abused while under their 'protection'. Then there's Canada, Cyprus, Germany and Switzerland to hit the fan yet.
The Pope has yet to answer charges of collusion in the German abuses - but, of course - he won't.
The only question hanging over the whole affair is why the abusers and their accomplices haven't been banged up for their crimes and the real mystery is why the Catholic Church is allowed anywhere near children given the atrocities committed by the clergy.
I do hope you enjoyed your trip to The Planet Zog - you obviously haven't spent too much time on this one over the last couple of years!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 04:53 PM

Joe, I posted the link to the 'document trail' to demonstrate that the local bishop and clergy had indeed handled the situation with the convicted Kiesle 'correctly'; although, retrospectively, it may have been better to have approached this as a referral of "graviora delicta" rather than a request for laicization from Kiesle himself
However we are not made aware of any supporting material about the criminal case so it's not possible to claim a Vatican 'cover up' in any form in this case just a resistance to 'release' a young priest.


The only thing I disagree with you about that is that is a 'moot point' as the case then languished for four years at the Vatican before Ratzinger finally wrote to Oakland Bishop John Cummins during which California church officials wrote to Ratzinger at least three times to check on the status of Kiesle's case and he returned to suburban Pinole (where he had served as associate pastor from 1972 to 1975) in 1985 to volunteer as a youth minister at St. Joseph Church, even though it appears apparent that he was not actually functioning as a priest at this time but was also not a member of the laiety either!

It was two more years before Kiesle was removed from the priesthood

The Catholic Church, because of its size, has much in common with the largest super tanker and appears to be unable to react with any alacrity or, it would appear, identification with the local situation even, in the time that it took to deal with the communications - it is maybe here that changes also need to be made.


Joe, I have respect for people who continue to fight for what they believe in within an organization - I myself attempted this for several years too although, in my case, to no avail except some personal distress. and disillusionment.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 04:44 PM

and the vast majority of bishops did not cover up the crimes that happened in their dioceses.

Is this really true? I am under the impression that exactly the opposite was true. Is there any example of any bishop who went to the police first? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 04:31 PM

The serious fault has been where there has been a failure to stop child abusers having continued opportunities to abuse, and that is a terrible fault. It seems to have arisen primarily out of attempts to avoid scandal.

However in itself seeking to deal with this kind of thing out of public view is not an unreasonable thing to do - the failure lay in doing so in ways that did not recognise that the absolute priority has to be the welfare of the children involved.

I think it's reasonable to hope that that isn't going to happen these days. Here's a quote from a typical contemporary diocesean policy: "The diocese confirms that in matters of the alleged abuse of children the 'Paramount Principle' will be maintained, that is the welfare of the child is the paramount consideration in all matters concerning the protection of children.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Paul Burke
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 04:28 PM

I think Jesus saved everyone

If Bonzo's saved, I don't want to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 04:26 PM

There was a fifteen million dollar settlement in Eastern Canada, paid
out to sexual abuse victims by priests, and the parishoners were told
that the money would come from the collection plates.
The parishoners in that area think that the Vatican should be paying
that money, but they won't.
The bishop of that diocese was then charged of possession and trafficking child pornography, and is now being charged of sexual abuse.

The Catholic Church is in real trouble, because this scandal has taken
place in several countries, and people are now leaving the church
because of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 03:31 PM

I would like to point out that in the Kiesle case that is the main subject of this thread, the molester/priest committed his crimes between November of 1977 and May, 1978, and he ceased functioning as a priest in August, 1978. He remained a priest until he was laicized in 1987, but was not allowed to function as a priest after 1978. His local bishop, John Cummins, took action and removed him from ministry as soon as the crimes were discovered. He was prosecuted for his crime. He received a suspended 3-year jail sentence and was on probation. Perhaps not the severe sentence he deserved, but that's a matter for the criminal justice system. Child molestation is one of the hardest crimes for a prosecutor to prove, so criminal charges are often settled by plea bargain, dismissed, or never filed. After his completion of probation, he was most likely forgotten - I'm afraid that happens a lot in a free society. And since he was a child molester, he continued to seek opportunities to have contact with children - by volunteering to work with youth groups.
But do note that in this case, the local bishop took action quickly and removed the priest from ministry. The fact that laicization took a long time, is moot - the man did not function as a priest after his bishop removed him from ministry.

The previous thread discussed the case of Lawrence C. Murphy, who served at St. John's School for the Deaf in Milwaukee from 1950 to 1974. The Archbishop of Milwaukee forced Murphy to resign in 1974, because of allegations of sexual abuse of children at the school. After that, Murphy lived in a home his family owned in far northern Wisconsin. He was never given an official assignment as a priest after his removal in 1974, but he served occasionally as a vacation substitute, celebrating Mass at various churches in his area. There were no incidents of sexual misconduct reported after 1974. He died in 1998, still a priest - but never had a job as a priest after he was removed from employment in 1974. Again, the local bishop took action, and also referred the case to local law enforcement authorities, who did not file charges.

Most likely, both of these cases could have been handled better. Most likely, every criminal case could have been handled better. But the fact of the matter is that both of these cases were handled by church authorities, and the priest-molesters were removed from ministry.

But Andrew Sullivan and other reporters are out to get Rome, so they've set the standards higher. They seem to be using these two cases to attempt to prove that Rome wasn't doing its job. Even though these cases were handled locally and the priest/molesters were removed from ministry, Sullivan and the others now thing the case isn't complete until Rome puts its imprimatur on the whole thing by laicizing the offending priest with alacrity. It's like demanding that President Obama sign off on the sentence of every criminal in Tucumcari - and if Obama doesn't, then he's "soft on crime." If a priest is not allowed to function as a priest, laicization offers little benefit to anyone. The priest is still technically required to remain celibate and to obey his bishop in clerical matters, so laicization allows him to get married in the Catholic Church and to function in the Catholic Church as a lay person. The unlaicized priest who is not allowed to function as a priest, is somewhat of a pariah in the Catholic Church. Seems to me, that Mr. Sullivan should prefer the criminal priest to remain a pariah. But yes, punitive laicization is a clear sign that Rome disapproves of child molestation. It just seems to me that it misses the point. The main things are to remove the priest-molester from ministry and to refer him to criminal prosecution. If the local bishop has done that, then I think he's done his duty. And if the bishop has done what he's supposed to do, there's no need for Rome to do anything further.

It's true that Catholic neoconservatives contend that the only true authority in the Catholic Church is the Pope, so they don't completely trust any decision that hasn't been made in Rome. But that isn't the way the Catholic Church is supposed to work. The Pope is "primus inter pares" (first among equals); but in most situations, the buck is supposed to stop at the desk of the local bishop. If the local bishop fails to handle an incident of child abuse or molestation, that's another matter. If Mr. Sullivan has his way, then Rome will be involved in every such case - thus furthering the "cult of the pope" and limiting the autonomy of local dioceses. No, thank you, Mr. Sullivan - I prefer that Rome keeps its grimy political hands out of the day-to-day activities of my parish and my diocese. And I'm mad as hell that Rome has rejected the American translations of prayers Americans use at Mass, and that Rome is investigating women religious (nuns) in the U.S.

The crimes against children in the Catholic Church and the subsequent coverups were a horrible thing. But as I've said before, the vast majority of parishes had no such crimes, and the vast majority of bishops did not cover up the crimes that happened in their dioceses. Please remember that the number of priest-molesters was about five percent. I have no data on the number of bishops who covered up crimes - but I suspect the number is far lower than people might think.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 02:43 PM

I've known quite a few CofE/Anglican/Episcopalian priests over the years (in New Zealand, Scotland and England) and I'd estimate that more than half of them were gay.
Based on what?

Based on them telling me. You can be a gay priest in the CofE (in the places I've lived, anyway) without anybody being very bothered about it. And that's been the case for decades.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 02:35 PM

"Does anyone really think that if this is happening in Norway and the Netherlands that is not really happening in in far worse numbers in countries with greater social and economic problems? Places where there are practically public markets for child sex trade?"

Using the RC Church's own logic, one would expect the behaviour to occur at least in the same statistical number in most areas(though one could suspect in greater numbers in some of the areas noted. That alone would justify the logic behind a belief that there are much more than reported yet....and it is likely the RC church knows of some of these, if not all that have not been made public. Thus the call to come clean and open the books, since many of these would be considered crimes in most if not all societies.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 02:28 PM

Does anyone really think that if this is happening in Norway and the Netherlands that is not really happening in in far worse numbers in countries with greater social and economic problems? Places where there are practically public markets for child sex trade? Places where errant priests were sometimes sent to get rid of them? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 02:20 PM

Nice anecdote, Jim, mow where's the evidence?

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 02:16 PM

"REAL evidence, not supposition or anecdotal."
Try Ireland where the church is rapidly heading for burnout.
Two official reports leading to resignations of several bishops - not enough yet, but more to come. Evidence of not only large scale paedophilia stretching over several decades, but also of a culture of abuse within the church, where child-rapists were protected by the hierarchy, who not only did not report their criminal behaviour but moved the abusers on to other parishes to continue their abuse - oh, and then forced the victims into a vow of silence, forbidding them to speak about the atrocities committed against them, except to officers of the very church who facilitated the abuse,
It now turns out that the Catholic Church in Cyprus, Germany, Canada and Switzerland (at least) were at it as well - real enough for you - or maybe it's not just Catholics but a 'Christian' thing?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 01:56 PM

Church of England for me if it's all the same to you - no raving queers for vicars!

I don't really think that comment was meant to be entirely serious, folks...