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EFDSS AGM , Wassup?
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 20 Nov 10 - 09:15 AM I guess a strong case might be made that if all those folkies who do things and enjoy the music etc. actually joined the EFDSS we might have an organisation big enough and rich enough to be considerably more effective? L in C# |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: The Sandman Date: 20 Nov 10 - 09:03 AM there was a point to mentioning train time tables, it was to correct a wrong post from jack campin, who tried to claim it was quicker to go by train from edinburgh to london than it was to go from edinburgh to sheffield, the train timetables illustrated that this statement was incorrect. |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 20 Nov 10 - 08:39 AM I have tried most things, so to speak, since about 1964 - gone to folk clubs, sung, played tunes, formed groups, ran folk clubs, morrised, mummed, busked and so on - like many others - and I'm not sure the EFDSS helped at any point. Currently I go out of our front door, walk to The Beech each Wednesday, sing songs and play tunes with likeminded friends and then come home. Maybe that's all that we really need? L in C# |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: Howard Jones Date: 20 Nov 10 - 07:47 AM If non-members are sufficiently interested in the EFDSS to criticise it, shouldn't they be taken seriously? Perhaps if their comments were addressed they might feel inclined to become members. |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: Spleen Cringe Date: 19 Nov 10 - 09:09 AM Dunelm said: the information about what the arts council grant was for was in ED&S. Can non-members read it please? Our taxes are paying for the grant. But as far as I am aware, your taxes are not paying for EDS. However, like other magazines, copies are available to anyone willing to pay the cover price of £3.00: EDS Winter 2010 I also think it's sad that so much energy is being put into criticising the EFDSS - particularly from non-members - and particularly when few realistic, acheivable and affordable alternatives are being offered. (The exception being Brezhnev's excellent suggestion about approaching American institutions). I don't think the EFDSS is perfect, but it's the only organisation of it's sort we have. The good stuff it does is more important than the stuff it can't or won't do or where the bloody HQ is located. And please: no more bus or train information. We can look that up if we need it. |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: The Sandman Date: 19 Nov 10 - 06:19 AM my comments are not crazy, i will repeat my comments, one doesnt have t be a member of the EFDSS to be allowed to criticise the organisation, neither does one have to be a member of a political party to be alLowed to criticise that particular party. by calling my comments crazy there is an implication that i am crazy. the people that are crazy are those people in the EFDSS who put on an annual general meeting and dont involve any musicians to provide music. |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 19 Nov 10 - 04:09 AM And the painted ponies go up and down - all without much help from the EFDSS L in C# |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: Manitas_at_home Date: 19 Nov 10 - 03:43 AM He didn't call you crazy, he said your rambling were crazy. That's criticism isn't it? The contents of your postings are as open to criticism as are EFDSS' policies. John has no more influence on what you are able to post than you have over EFDSS but he is still able to pass comment on your comments. And so it goes round.. |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: The Sandman Date: 18 Nov 10 - 05:30 PM "This is my last reaction to your crazy ramblings." my ramblings crazy? listen, you may not like it, but on this forum freedom of speech is allowed, you are not in a position to dictate who may or may not criticise the EFDSS,if the EFDSS organise an AGM without any music it is perfectly reasonable for non members as well as members to criticise that if they should so wish. you may be a member of the EFDSS but that does not give you the right to call non members who are critical of certain EFDSS decisions crazy. |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: GUEST,dunelm Date: 18 Nov 10 - 04:56 PM addison said the information about what the arts council grant was for was in ED&S. Can non-members read it please? Our taxes are paying for the grant. |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 18 Nov 10 - 03:47 PM For what it's worth I agree with Jon and a bit with Dick. Taking a long term view of the EFDSS it seems likely to survive but how much it has contributed, library excepted, to our post 1960's Revival is ................ erm not much? L in C# |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: johnadams Date: 18 Nov 10 - 02:34 PM Dick, This is my last reaction to your crazy ramblings. The coalition government is answerable to the people who, as members of the electorate of the uk, put them, willingly or unwillingly, in power. Those same people can vote them out. The EFDSS is answerable to the people who, by virtue of having bought into the society, have elected, by design or default, a bunch of trustees. Those same people can vote them out. You can complain as often as you like and as loudly as you can - but you ain't got a vote and you ain't got no influence. All you're doing is making noise, and a rather annoying one at that. |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: johnadams Date: 18 Nov 10 - 02:25 PM brezhnev wrote: And yes, of course, credit where it's due: the EFDSS has done really well to get the 'Take 6' and Cecil Sharp diaries online, but what's the plan/timescale with the rest once the catalogue has eventually been published? The library catalogue project has been a joint effort between existing library staff and a few volunteers. That's where the real praise should be directed. Being out of the loop these days I would have to guess that further digitisation on the scale of Take 6 will depend on further funding. In my experience, EFDSS is always asking but the answer isn't always 'yes'. The Arts Council Funding came with its hat and coat already on in terms of what it could be spent on, and if I remember correctly from the magazine quoted above, digitising wasn't on the list. Is it likely to be a priority when the Arts Council look round to see what they will fund with their sadly depleted allocation of funds? Answers on a post card please to..... maybe not. |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: The Sandman Date: 18 Nov 10 - 02:16 PM John, the particular hue of a government misses my point, people in England are free to criticise a government or political party they do not have to be a member of the party for it to be appropriate or inappropriate to criticise, its called freedom of speech. I do not have to be a member of the EFDSS, for it to be permissible for me to make a criticism. |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: johnadams Date: 18 Nov 10 - 02:13 PM Dick, Get a sense of proportion will you? Coalition - hospitals, jobs, defence, security, etc. ie. the things import to the survival of every person in the realm and supported by the compulsory taxation of every person in the realm. EFDSS has a library and venue and 4,000 or so members who expect their subs to be spent in a sensible way which meets their collective aims. In what way is it disrespecting professional musicians? It owes no debt to anyone who chooses to earn their living as a professional performer, including me when I was full time. It is a charity trying to further cultural aims for its members in whatever ways it can afford to do it. As a member I ask it to conserve, publish, educate, promote and disseminate folk culture without going bankrupt. Not a difficult concept surely? |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: brezhnev Date: 18 Nov 10 - 01:43 PM Dave, the online EFDSS materials behind the JSTOR paywall are: Folk Music Journal (1965-2004); Journal of the EFDSS (1932-64);Journal of the English Folk Dance Society (1927-31); The English Folk Dance Society's Journal (1914-15)and Journal of the Folk Song Society (1899-1931). What could American institutions do for the EFDSS? Well, they might have the resources and the desire to cherry pick and publish EFDSS stuff for open access online, like the (American) Country Dance and Song Society have just done with the Charles Bolton collection. And yes, of course, credit where it's due: the EFDSS has done really well to get the 'Take 6' and Cecil Sharp diaries online, but what's the plan/timescale with the rest once the catalogue has eventually been published? If American institutions have been asked and have said no, then so be it. But have they? £3.50 for access to the library is fine - as long as you live in London. Add on £100 train fares and the price of a room for the night and it's impossible. |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: The Sandman Date: 18 Nov 10 - 01:30 PM so its a hobby, so the EFDSS dont have to bother with tuition on a national basis, cos its only a hobby., its only a hobby so people who are not members , have no right to complain,its only a hobby, sp professional musicians, have no right to be treated with respect[waawaaa what do you do during the day]its only a hobby John, what a load of codswallop. |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: johnadams Date: 18 Nov 10 - 01:24 PM The coalition government have control over life and death issues. The efdss do not. Folk is a hobby for the majority of participants. |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: The Sandman Date: 18 Nov 10 - 01:09 PM "Reading up this thread, I'm still amazed at the depth of expectations of some people who want the society to provide lots of resources, services and lobbying and lord knows what else, but can't be bothered to stump up a subscription to support the work. There is no reason why the interests of tens of thousands of folk enthusiasts HAVE to be supported by 4,000 members of a charitable society. We who ARE members of the society are happy when the wider aims are met but it's not a given. Also, we who ARE members feel justified in criticising the society when it doesn't meet OUR expectations as card carrying members. Those outside the membership are already potentially getting more than than they are paying for, even via taxes, so they shouldn't be complaining - should they?" yes, they should be complaining, the EFDSS is supposed to be a national folk dance and song organisation, not just a london organisation.there is only one organisation that provides tuition on a national basis, and that is not EFDSS but Comhaltas. what happens if comhaltas is forced to reduce its tuition[quite a possibility as ireland is bankrupt]we could be left with no organisation providing national tuition, for years Comhaltas have been doing what the EFDSS should be doing. your argument is really stupid its like saying, those people who are not members of the conservative/liberal party should not be complaining about the state of the country or the coalition government. |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: johnadams Date: 18 Nov 10 - 12:53 PM Dave Eyre wrote: As far as I am aware there is no paywall of any sort to access material on-line - should anyone wish as a non-member wish to avail themselves of the library it is �3.50 a shot. Remarkably inexpensive I would have thought. But all the material on-line is available free of charge. And so is the library to members of the EFDSS. Dave, the journal is being handled by J-STOR, an academic portal for journal articles which is 'free' to academics from subscribing institutions and expensive for those of us outside the academic world. I was on the national council when the decision to go via J-STOR was made. It wasn't something I was keen on as I am aware that most of the research work done in the folk field is by people outside the academic framework, but there was understandably the opinion that, given the small nature of income from memberships, giving several decades of the journal away for free was not a viable option when it could be providing an income stream. There are many at the society that share my wish to provide a great free online resource but don't always know how to fund it. As it is, the society has spent public money providing public resources and where no funding has been available, it has sought an income stream which seems fair enough to me. Reading up this thread, I'm still amazed at the depth of expectations of some people who want the society to provide lots of resources, services and lobbying and lord knows what else, but can't be bothered to stump up a subscription to support the work. There is no reason why the interests of tens of thousands of folk enthusiasts HAVE to be supported by 4,000 members of a charitable society. We who ARE members of the society are happy when the wider aims are met but it's not a given. Also, we who ARE members feel justified in criticising the society when it doesn't meet OUR expectations as card carrying members. Those outside the membership are already potentially getting more than than they are paying for, even via taxes, so they shouldn't be complaining - should they? |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 18 Nov 10 - 12:25 PM Lots of good points Dave and well put. I guess I am having a longwinded stab at the fact that thousands of songs and tunes were collected and until the real revival of the 1960's onwards most rarely sa the light of day and since then it has been singers and musicians who went to CSH and the Library L in C# |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: GUEST,Dave Eyre Date: 18 Nov 10 - 12:20 PM And to Les's question about songs and tunes in hostage, frankly they aren't! Either way. |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: GUEST,Dave Eyre Date: 18 Nov 10 - 12:18 PM Let me state at the outset I am a member of the Society and I thought the AGM in Sheffield could have been done better. I think the society is currently metro-centric. I have a number of worries about the society's direction as well but we must not blindly wave sticks about and hope they hit a target. I am not sure for example what this means: And are the important bits already online going to remain forever stuck behind the JSTOR academic paywall? To what precisely are you referring? As far as I am aware there is no paywall of any sort to access material on-line - should anyone wish as a non-member wish to avail themselves of the library it is £3.50 a shot. Remarkably inexpensive I would have thought. But all the material on-line is available free of charge. And so is the library to members of the EFDSS. As for seeking the help of American Universities (the link goes to a page called Open Folklore) what precisely do you want them to do? Send people across to digitize material? I suspect they might just balk at that. My experience of the RVWML is that the librarian knows more about what is happening in the folk world than most and that he is an excellent librarian with top-class knowledge. Most people's experience of him is the same. So what do you want the Americans to do? What that link seems to show to me is that well-funded institutions to do with folklore can produce excellent materials on line. Well looking at the Take Six project and the Sharp Diaries so can RVWML as well. You might care to note that the RVWML is hoping to get its whole library catalogue on-line eventually, starting with the Leslie Shephard collection. It says so on the website. Digitising material like this is an enormous and an enormously expensive task and of course people involved have to spend a lot of time fund-raising rather than doing their "proper" job. Anyone who has applied for funding knows it only comes for specific projects. So first decide your project and then apply to the correct place and for a justifiable amount. Not the easiest of tasks. But it is simple given unlimited amounts of money. Compare the Irish equivalent of the RWVML, the Irish Traditional Music Archive. I suspect the EFDSS would like the £4,000,000 state contribution to the setting up and the €750,000 per year funding the ITMA gets. They started the process of putting their catalogue on line in 2008, and are doing a great job, but they have two full-time digitisation staff!! Plus a lot of others! |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 18 Nov 10 - 11:05 AM So, has the EFDSS kept all those songs and tunes hostage or is it the other way round? L in C# |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: GUEST,addison Date: 18 Nov 10 - 10:54 AM Looking at ED&S Winter 2009, there's a whole section on what the Arts Council grant is for. Page 26. perhaps someone at EFDSS could post the information here. addison |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: brezhnev Date: 18 Nov 10 - 09:20 AM Presumably the EFDSS' current activity is geared almost exclusively to meeting the targets it committed itself to in exchange for the £400,000 it received from the Arts Council. I presume too that EFDSS members have access to those targets (if not, why not?), but they're not available to the general public. Who knows? Their performance indicators may include the sponsorship of x number of artists over two years, or the holding of x number of AGMs outside of London, or the generation of x amount of income from gigs in Camden, or achieving x number of downloads by schools of songs from the (sadly stalled) Fun with Folk website. Whatever. Most of those activities aren't unique to the EFDSS. And it's only public money. The only truly unique asset the EFDSS has is its archive. Does anybody know how much of the £400,000 gets devoted to it? Is it their plan to press on with the work using volunteers? Have they sought the help of American universities/libraries with digitisation and hosting? And are the important bits already online going to remain forever stuck behind the JSTOR academic paywall? I don't expect any answers. Just wanted to get it off my chest. |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: Paul Davenport Date: 18 Nov 10 - 05:18 AM One of the 'sponsored' artists spoke at the AGM and expressed disquiet that the society had taken a step into so called 'artist development'. Their take on this was that they would 'sponsor' already established acts at such events. The artist concerned called into question whether a) this was part of the society's remit and b) whether the society actually understood the term 'grass roots' which was part of the rationale offered by the Chief Officer. The short answer to Howard's question seems to be - get established and then the society will take the 'risk'. |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: Howard Jones Date: 18 Nov 10 - 04:47 AM Out of curiosity, how does a performer get to be sponsored by EFDSS? |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 18 Nov 10 - 03:22 AM Good points Jon. Is it the case that since the 'Second Revival' that started in the 60's, what ever 'Folk' is simply out grew the EFDSS? Even today hundreds more of events happen weekly around the country and dozens and dozens of festivals are organised without any connection with the EFDSS. I have just been re-reading 'The Imagined Village' and the role of the EFDSS before WW2. It makes me think that the only serious Revival was ours of the 1960's and beyond. Some of the Folk Clubs, Folk Groups, singers and musicians of that revival were amazing and some were pretty dire but for quite a while if you lived in a large town or City you could walk or get a bus to a Folk Club and in some places many nights of the week! Some Revival hey? L in C# Still a member |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: johnadams Date: 17 Nov 10 - 05:21 PM I don't remember the joke Dick but I take your point. A No. 53 came along recently with some money aboard but we'll need to see what effect it has and if it comes around again. The Roadmaster might shrink to a minibus. |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: The Sandman Date: 17 Nov 10 - 04:54 PM 100, sorry leadfingers |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: The Sandman Date: 17 Nov 10 - 04:53 PM "I know we're all impatient for the society to really do what it says on the tin, so to speak." its a bit like waiting for a no 53 bus, you must remember the old joke Jesus is coming but he is still waiting for a no 53 bus |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: johnadams Date: 17 Nov 10 - 03:25 PM Mike I don't have a problem with events happening at C#H as long as they are self sustaining. Given the attendances I've clocked, this is probably the case. I'd be more concerned if my subs were being used to prop up the place as a venue. I'm happy for my subs to prop up the library, given its importance. I'd be even happier if there was evidence of some publishing (web or paper) going on other than that already funded. I still think that the society has yet to properly establish a regional strategy and the Sheffield AGM wasn't a way forward on that front. Having said that, I travelled to see Inge Thomson at the Boardwalk in Sheffield a couple of weeks ago (she's wife/partner of Martin Green of Lau and a very interesting Fair Isle accordion player and contemporary song writer). Two of the supporting acts were sponsored by the EFDSS. Make of that what you will. As far as the library being anywhere Les, anywhere is going to be inaccessible for someone and it's been debated ad nauseam. It's more important to get the stuff on line and there have been some good moves in that direction, partly through some excellent voluntary work and partly through funding. I know we're all impatient for the society to really do what it says on the tin, so to speak, but it's early day with regard to the Arts Council funding and although I have some serious reservations about recent strategy indications, I think it still needs time to prove it's worth. And there's nobody else in the frame as far as I can see. |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 17 Nov 10 - 12:52 PM Yer, Mike, lets smash some windows then? L in C# |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: mikesamwild Date: 17 Nov 10 - 12:13 PM I've stayed a member to support the work but not a venue for Londoners. It's another case of poor old pensioners paying for the arts for toffs in't South!! |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 15 Nov 10 - 01:37 PM I don't think I am a moaning old grump, but others may differ, but .............. I have been a member for a long time and I don't feel it has ever done much for me. The Library is brilliant but that could be anwhere. I feel it's a bit like a worthy charity rather than an organisation that might help promote folk music across the country. Has it withdrawn into a redoubt offering events for people in London and not much else? L in C# |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: The Sandman Date: 14 Nov 10 - 09:26 AM It seems like it Howard. Derby along wirth several other midland towns and cities has good rail access and road access. |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: Howard Jones Date: 14 Nov 10 - 09:08 AM Let me get this right - the national body for folk music failed to organise an event which might have showcased the Society and persuaded sceptical northerners that it might actually have something to offer, not because it was unwilling but because it was incapable of doing so? |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 14 Nov 10 - 08:53 AM Good points Paul. Wolverhapton is good for trains as is, you might not be surprised that I mention it, Manchester. L in C# |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: Paul Davenport Date: 14 Nov 10 - 08:21 AM Now here's a thing. I went to the Riley Technical High School in Hull. So did my Uncle and so did my brother in law. But you know what? We actually attended three different sites in three different parts of the city at three different times. The important thing was the name and the memory of the said Mr Riley. It was not about a piece of land or a pile of bricks. It was all about academic tradition. The school was rebuilt and relocated several times. I need hardly point out that Cecil Sharp Hse is clearly more important to a certain faction of the society than the memory of Cecil Sharp himself. The insistence on clinging onto a building which by the looks of the balance sheets is actually unfit for most purposes except as a place to hire out to other interests is creating a liability which affects everyone with an interest in English folk song and dance. This year the house is only valued at just shy of 1.5 million quid. Recession aside, it has been losing value at an alarming rate over the last 10 years! It seems that soon it won't have enough value to qualify as an asset. |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: The Sandman Date: 14 Nov 10 - 07:25 AM yes, les, I agree, but every time i mention it I am accused of having an obsession with EFDSS. it is not beyond the powers of be that run efdss, to have deliberately done this, so that they can argue, that it failed when it was held in sheffield therefore it has to be held in London. I am not saying it is so, but saying its a possibilty. |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 14 Nov 10 - 07:16 AM How about selling CSH and having a purpose built centre in a town convenient for public transport? L in C# |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: mikesamwild Date: 14 Nov 10 - 06:58 AM Well, only 30 members there. Some of us asked why no event?. The response was that the committee thought the staff were doing something and vice versa. So nowt!Cock up or conspiracy? Next year in London (or Marienbad?) and guaranteed events at Cecil Sharp House. Some probing questions from the floor about why things are Metrocentric. We tried! |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: mikesamwild Date: 05 Nov 10 - 08:52 AM Agree! And I am back in my own name , apparently you have to clock in occasionally! Looks like Bright Phoebus have the Greystones franchise for folk. |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: mattkeen Date: 05 Nov 10 - 06:13 AM Joybringer! Personally, I am most interested in the library and digitising it and it becoming avalibale on the net would be fantastic - that and educational work like Sam Lee was doing |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: GUEST Date: 04 Nov 10 - 03:49 PM That Guest is mikesamwild , why have I been so downgraded?
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: GUEST Date: 04 Nov 10 - 03:48 PM Anyway Sheffield has just had The Boardwalk ( ex Mucky Duck, ex Black Swan)named the 4th most Iconic Music Venue in the World! And Henderson's Relish has beaten Marmite to First Place in the the Vegetarian Society Best Store Cupboard Item category -- and the old Highcliffe is reopening as a music pub 'The Greystones' - opening neet toneet.
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe Date: 04 Nov 10 - 12:11 PM Hi Matt! Of course, thanks to you I now have that bloody Manfred Mann's Earth Band song buzzing round my head and I can't get rid of it... All together now: Come on without, Come on within... |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: Mo the caller Date: 04 Nov 10 - 12:10 PM I pay my subs for the insurance cover. |
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Subject: RE: EFDSS AGM , Wassup? From: mattkeen Date: 04 Nov 10 - 11:46 AM Agree with thge mighty spleen |
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