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an embarassment as a blues singer
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: Vic Smith Date: 19 Jul 11 - 04:01 PM the bigger names still get the oxygen of publicity (even if they've produced a duffer) where as whatever the "quality" of an independent release (from a lesser known name) it is still (much?) less likely to get the same. I think that readers would expect to see a full review of album by the bigger names simply because they are the bigger names. If they are that popular then a poor opinion in a full review or dismissal to a short notice section in one magazine is not going to make a lot of difference to their sales. I also guess that a thumbs up and a good review in the "and the rest section" is actually as good an endorsement as a fully independent release could expect from fRoots then. Absolutely not! Full reviews in the current fRoots include the following:- LUCY PRINGLE & CHRIS WRIGHT The Speaking Heart (Modegreen Music) AILIE ROBERTSON Traditional Spirits (Lorimer) HILARY JAMES English Sketches (Acoustics) FRIBO Happy (Fribo Records) CORDELIA'S DAD Double Live (Own Label) MONSTER CEILIDH BAND (MCB Records) THE FLK The Flk (FLK) FAIRPORT CONVENTION Festival Bell (Matty Grooves) BLAZIN' FIDDLES Thursday Night In The Caley (Own Label) All these are the English language fully independent release or own labels and there are others in foreign tongues that are apparently a source of ridicule for some in this thread. |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: Banjiman Date: 19 Jul 11 - 03:36 PM Vic, "True, but I've read many reviews in fRoots, written some myself, where the message has been "not as good as we have come to expect from XXXXX"" Thank you for your honesty! So the bigger names still get the oxygen of publicity (even if they've produced a duffer) where as whatever the "quality" of an independent release (from a lesser known name) it is still (much?) less likely to get the same. It was ever thus I guess. I also guess that a thumbs up and a good review in the "and the rest section" is actually as good an endorsement as a fully independent release could expect from fRoots then. |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: Vic Smith Date: 19 Jul 11 - 03:26 PM I don't know, you tell me? Certainly no, then. Are any of the albums you highlight above not on a record label? No, they are all on long established specialist folk labels. However, with so many excellent self-produced albums these days, not being on a label is much less of a problem than it used to be. Many musicians now prefer to have full control of the whole process of album production from start to finish that self-produced albums can bring. The main drawback is distribution to shops which is very difficult for individuals to handle, but with fewer and fewer specialist music albums appearing in shops and with downloads overtaking CD sales at a vast rate, this is much less of a problem than it used to be. Musicians and groups who have the financial resources to bring out their own albums and who has a good website with the facility to pay on-line and that can handle downloads are likely to make more profit per unit sold, especially if they are doing lots of gigs. People still have to find out that these releases are available, however, so good targeted advertising is important if expensive. Reviews are the other way of letting people know about albums, as Spleen Cringe has pointed out. I've heard it said many times that a bad review is better than no review at all. But I'm pretty sure that if a big name artist produced a duffer of an album it would still have a very good chance of being in the main review section rather "and the rest" True, but I've read many reviews in fRoots, written some myself, where the message has been "not as good as we have come to expect from XXXXX" |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: Banjiman Date: 19 Jul 11 - 02:20 PM "I'm not exactly sure what you are saying here. Are you suggesting that fRoots are only interested in reviewing artists that have hype surrounding them?" I don't know, you tell me? But I'm pretty sure that if a big name artist produced a duffer of an album it would still have a very good chance of being in the main review section rather "and the rest". ..... and an independent, home produced CD (or one from a minor label)would have to be mightily, mightily impressive to make it into the "main" review section. Are any of the albums you highlight above not on a record label? |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: The Sandman Date: 19 Jul 11 - 02:19 PM should read I suspect that most of those people are people who unlike you have not been involved with folk music since 1962. |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: The Sandman Date: 19 Jul 11 - 02:18 PM Vic, I think that you are less affected by hype than most people, you have been involved with folk music for a very long time, 40 years plus,both you and I know the folk scene has changed a lot in that time,it is inevitable that elements of the pop scene e.g. hype should spill over to the folk music scene. Vic you are not typical[ imo] of the majority of reviewers who I think are influenced by the folk/pop machine, and hype. I suspect that most of those people who unlike you have not been involved with folk music since 1962 |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: Vic Smith Date: 19 Jul 11 - 01:51 PM Banjiman wrote (adding his correction) "So are they not worth the space in quality terms or is it just that there is less hype surrounding them Vic? In fROOTs that is." In the case of fRoots I know for certain that the decision on whether the the album goes into the .... and the rest section or rates a full review is the sole decision of the reviewer. I'm not exactly sure what you are saying here. Are you suggesting that fRoots are only interested in reviewing artists that have hype surrounding them? If you are, I would suggest you look at recent issues of the magazine and analyse the backgrounds of the artists involved. Of course, the opinion whether an artist is "hyped up" or not is as subjective as whether a reviewer's writing is "based on the technical work and quality .. not on personal taste" but here are a few albums and books that I, as reviewer, have rated recently as worthy of a full review in fRoots:- UN MONDE QUI BOURDONNE OU LA VIE PALPITANTE DES CORNEMUSES Presented by Daniel Loddo & Claude Ribouillault A book of French academic papers submitted by writers to a conference about the varied bagpipe traditions in Central & Southern France and the Iberian Peninsula. HARRY GREEN AND OTHERS The Fox & The Hare Veteran VT125CD An album of field recordings of traditional singers from Essex, now all deceased. SHEILA STEWART A Traveller's Life Birlinn ISBN 978-1-84158-979-4 An autobiography of the wonderful Scots traveller singer JOSEPH GOUDERC Chanteur du Ségala Cordae/La TalveraGEMP 67 An album of masterly traditional singing in the Occitan language of southern France. I think that it is superb but I don't expect it to find a huge market in the UK. Whether it sells or not, I would rate this as a very important release. BAGAD KEMPER Live Au Cornouaille Keltia Musique KMCD 20 A CD of a concert to mark the 60th anniversary of the leading Breton bagpipe and bombard band. I would leave it to others to decide whether there is "hype" surrounding all or any of these productions, but I would say that I have thoroughly enjoyed all of them (though I found the technical bagpipe terms in French a bit hard going) and think that all of them have enriched my knowledge of European traditional music and song. |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: Banjiman Date: 19 Jul 11 - 12:35 PM in not it quality terms, sorry. |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: Banjiman Date: 19 Jul 11 - 12:21 PM Vic says - "It is a very common practice in a lot of specialist music magazines to have a section of short anonymous notices for albums where the reviewer and/or the editor feels that an album is not worth the full space of a review but where that album can at least have a mention" So are they not worth the space it quality terms or is it just that there is less hype surrounding them Vic? In fROOTs that is. |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: Big Al Whittle Date: 19 Jul 11 - 12:13 PM Folk music is like a creaky old bus. There are some people trying to get the wheels to turn round. Like dick miles. there are some people pissing in the petrol tank,like this reviewer. A review like that makes it harder for Dick to get gigs. makes it harder for people to book him. the guys a twat. there are only negative repercussions from his smart arse comments. If you haven't got room to review the album properly, just return it, or if you can't afford that - bin it. My first and last cd was a great learning experience. Despite two four star reviews (Maverick and Rock n Reel) I wouldn't hazard the money on another cd project. if people want to know what I'm writing and singing - they'll have to come and see me, or contact me - and I post them a cd of my work in progress free. If the work dies with me - so be it. i understand there are some people who rely on cd sales for an important supplement to their income. My heart goes out to them having to submit to the humiliation of being....and the rest. Particularly in magazines where reviews exceed the european garbage quota every time I pick up a copy. |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: olddude Date: 19 Jul 11 - 11:51 AM Spleen your words are well taken, thank you for giving me the other side of it. |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: Spleen Cringe Date: 19 Jul 11 - 11:46 AM Old Dude, the problem for me is that you seem to be saying you can only really understand and appreciate the music if you perform. That seems pretty damning of the non-musicians in the audience, too... ;-) And how many performers can write? Reviewers have to be pretty good at that, too. I run a small record label. I want the stuff I bring out to be reviewed - its one of the ways people get to know about the music. You can't just shove it on Myspace and hope for the best (not if you want to break even, anyway). Ideally I want the reviewers to go crazy about the stuff I release, but you have to take the rough with the smooth. Although I'm not a musician, when I hear some new music, I know whether I'd like it for the label or not - and yes, it is very subjective and very much about taste, but then, why would I release a record I didn't like? Every time we decide what album we will buy and what we won't, what gig we'll go to and what we won't, whose music we'll recommend to a friend and whose we won't, in a sense we are reviewers. Every time you start one of your lovely threads saying 'check this person's music out', in a sense you're a reviewer too - somewhere along the line you've been moved to praise someone's work - but not moved to praise someone else's. Most reviewers aren't monsters - they are just people communicating an opinion. And at the end of the day - it's all subjective. |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: olddude Date: 19 Jul 11 - 11:28 AM Given that you are a producer and performer Vic ... I take much more stock in your writing than I would someone who just writes a review based on their own taste in music. It would be like me trying to write a review on Rap. I know nothing about it, don't know good rap from bad wrap so I would not attempt to review anther's work. But I think I could when it comes to folk and blues. But any review should be based on the technical work and quality .. not on personal taste .. or ax to grind .. I suspect the latter is what occurred in this situation. |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: Vic Smith Date: 19 Jul 11 - 10:51 AM It is a very common practice in a lot of specialist music magazines to have a section of short anonymous notices for albums where the reviewer and/or the editor feels that an album is not worth the full space of a review but where that album can at least have a mention..... which is not to say that I agree with this practice. All folk music magazines receive more albums to review than they can give full space to - so this is one way they have of dealing with the situation. A high percentage of folk albums do not made the grade as far as I am concerned, but as a reviewer who is also a performer and someone who has produced albums for others, I am always very loathe to write a totally damning review. I am also guided by my training in reviewing mentioned above. |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: olddude Date: 19 Jul 11 - 10:42 AM Those who do, well they do, those who don't write reviews. The only reviews that ever matter to me is when another song writer that I respect and cherish tell me that I need to work on the song more .. If I hear that from someone like my brother Bruce, I know it is correct and I need more work. Likewise if I hear it is a fine song I know not to mess with it. Many reviewers have an ax to grind. Some just don't like the music. Tastes are all different. I think one should not write a review unless they perform themselves. That of course is my opinion. I have had good ones I have had bad ones but I play for me. You been at this a long time. You have a strong following .. that tells ya something Dick. Forget it ... You do blues the way you want to do blues. Do it cause you like it not any reviewer. I play blues. I could not possibly be as good as Bobert or DWDitty ... who is, those guys are in a class all by themselves. But I enjoy what I do .. that is all that matters. Forget the reviewer, if that was true so many people would not buy your music and follow you in a performance. They do so that has to tell you the guy or girl that wrote it is full of crap ... ok |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: The Sandman Date: 19 Jul 11 - 09:59 AM no, both my review and chumbawamba were in the category and the rest. Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: GUEST,Shimrod - PM Date: 19 Jul 11 - 09:15 AM In my opinion it is dishonest to suggest that something is praiseworthy when you really feel that it isn't. correct shimrod, but,criticism should be explained,I had no problem with the vocal mannerisms criticism, It is not ggod reviewqing to agfit prop my arse, or from the same "and the rest"do we need another eric clapton or mick green at this point, or, a review of the Blues band, I tried to not let it wash over me but it insisted. That reviewer Sounds like he is too fond of the look of his own words in print. |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: GUEST,999 Date: 19 Jul 11 - 09:17 AM It is equally dishonest--imo--to do a review and not sign yer name to it. (I may be mistaken, but was the review signed by the reviewer?) |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 19 Jul 11 - 09:15 AM In my opinion it is dishonest to suggest that something is praiseworthy when you really feel that it isn't. |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: GUEST,Norman Jensen Date: 19 Jul 11 - 09:13 AM It's interesting, isn't it, when someone gets pedantic and persnickety about what is basically a folk style? I thought Miles's way with the song was a whole lot better than someone adopting a gravelly voice and fake southern dialect in a lame attempt to sound "black." |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: The Sandman Date: 19 Jul 11 - 08:30 AM I do want to make something clear, my purpose in banging on about reviews,apart from drawing attention to myself, is to try and get the standard improved, in fairness to froots, and folk roots, the magazine is/was well produced and these amateurish reviews are only occassional, and yes I agree the chumba wamba review, was much worse. As far as I am concerned it is a discussion aimed at all folk reviews/ folk reviewers, the readifolk review was another example of not telling people what happened but waffling on about other thing. If I had been writing a review of that night,I would have tried to make the club sound welcoming I would have mentioned the best floor singers,I would have talked about the residents. while it is important not to be dishonest,it is important to try and pick the best aspects of the club, and try and make readers feel they would like to visit the club on any night. |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Jul 11 - 05:17 AM "The world was a much safer place when people could smoke indoors." And a damn sight safer when they are banished permanently to the great big ashtray in the sky. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 19 Jul 11 - 04:59 AM The world was a much safer place when people could smoke indoors. |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: Spleen Cringe Date: 19 Jul 11 - 03:40 AM That sounds painful! Glad it wasn't a direct hit. I thought the most dangerous thing about Paul was supposed to be his banjo playing.... |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: Banjiman Date: 18 Jul 11 - 02:16 PM He did get a good song intro out of it though........much to my embarrassment. AND I couldn't say no when he asked to borrow my banjo! |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 18 Jul 11 - 01:17 PM Flipping heck, GSS! That was certainly close. I'm glad to hear that you're OK. |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: olddude Date: 18 Jul 11 - 12:35 PM OH sure sure, it is all fun and games until someone loses an eye !! |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: The Sandman Date: 18 Jul 11 - 09:20 AM you are right, this is unimportant compared to nearly losing an eye, A cigarette accidentally stubbed on the boundary of my nose and eye[ one millimetere away from blinding me]. Paul and Graeme, were walking slightly ahead of me, we decided that the pub to our immediate right[karaoke]was not a good place for a quiet pint. The pub I suggested was behind me up the street. Paul turned round quickly to his left with a lighted cig in hand, not knowing my exact position, and nearly blinded me. |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: Banjiman Date: 18 Jul 11 - 09:02 AM Dick tells it so much better than I could, though I can confirm that both cigarettes and alcohol were involved........ |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: Spleen Cringe Date: 18 Jul 11 - 08:06 AM Is there a story there you'd like to share, Banjiman? |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: Banjiman Date: 18 Jul 11 - 07:22 AM "though he does have the disadvantage in NOT being Blind" "thanks leadfingers, must keep working on those disadvantages." ....... I did (accidentally, honest) try try and help Dick out with this at the weekend (Scarborough Seafest), I hope his eye has recovered!!! |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: Big Al Whittle Date: 18 Jul 11 - 07:15 AM Well now that the dog's seen the rabbit. I think its a rather mean spirited review. Dick's cds are what they are. they aren't made by some vast marketing arm of the music industry. They are made to flog at his gigs. If someone asks - is that number on the cd - he has to keep producing stuff reflecting that his ever expanding repertoire. It takes a lot of financial committment to keep producing albums, and most of us can't be arsed. If someone asks me a song I've covered - I tell them who the original artist that I got it from was. I simply can't keep up with making cds of my own songs - let alone the other stuff. Someone once asked the late Ken Campbell to read for a part. he said - no - you know what I do - you know whether you want me! I think we're all cognisant of what Dick Miles has been up to these last umpteen years. You should have handed the writing assignment to a DM fan - of which there are no shortage. I feel sure in my own mind there must have been more positives to look for. As for the point about cattle drovers, sailors and buffalo hunters. Well thats what a lot of folksongs are about. No one ever says ....oh no! not another bleeding song about the 1st world war! Or more shite in a Yorkshire accent! when theres a Kate Rusby album. That's what the guy does. You know what he does - you know whether you like it. |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 17 Jul 11 - 09:21 AM Bearing in mind any music journalists requirement to provide readable informative entertaining copy [amateur, semi pro, or professional]; .. now I've finally read the 'offending' review and can see the perceived insult in context, it actually seems quite a tame objectively balanced neutral toned criticism. Certainly compared to the sheer unrestrained flagrant 'adolescent' callous cruelty dealt out in most other genres and vehicles of music biz publication reviews. If anything, I'd suggest Chumbawamba would've had much more justification to protest about and accuse their reviewer of prejudiced snide unfaireness.... |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: Vic Smith Date: 17 Jul 11 - 09:19 AM Decades ago, in my first few years of presenting a local radio BBC folk music programme, I opted to go on a course that the BBC were funding for their presenters of Arts programmes. Though it was funded by the BBC, it was run by an outside university academic. I remember that one of the exercises that we were asked to do as part of the course was to analyse every phrase or sentence in a number of reviews that we were provided with, to break them up and put them into three categories - positive, neutral and negative. A well balanced review, our tutor said, should contain roughly the same number in each category. I have applied this analysis to the 21 year old review that is that title of this thread:- POSITIVE This would seem to make the review in question rather well balanced. |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: goatfell Date: 17 Jul 11 - 08:42 AM He's is good. |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Jul 11 - 07:48 AM Dick might be on the road doing some gigs and away from his computer. I keep thinking - I must write to bruce! I'll get there sooon! Gig this afternoon. |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: Vic Smith Date: 17 Jul 11 - 07:47 AM Gibb Sahib wrote:- "What's even more absurd: we haven't even seen what the review said. Allegedly, the *title* of this thread is a quote from it (yet it's misspelled?). Is this verbatim? What's the surrounding context?" Happy to oblige, Gibb. Here is the complete review:- Whatever his pedigree on the concertina (and the sleevenotes list a few Wheatstone serial numbers for the trainspottingly inclined), Dick Miles hasn't turned in a record of much excitement in On My Little Concertina (Brewhouse BH8812). Any merits on the instrumental side are offset by decidedly uninspired vocals. Sitting On Top Of The World is a case in point: the duet concertina/ fiddle backing is rather good but Miles is an embarrassment as a blues singer. Tam Linn is sung with rhythmic vigour, vastly overdone echo and a bad dose of Folkie's Vowel: "ther Queen", "keep her comperny", "Tam Linn's erway". This idiosyncracy puts in quite a few appearances. Elsewhere the subject matter's down to seamen, cattle drovers and buffalo hunters (with nice backup vocal from Sara Grey), some of it composed by Miles himself. No especially gripping moments though. Perhaps, I ought to add that the Chumbawunba review referred to earlier as being by amateurish reviewers to hold forth,here is another oreview, that is disgraceful. is from the same page and same issue as the review that I quote above. |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: GUEST,999 Date: 17 Jul 11 - 07:44 AM Hey, Al. OP is Original or opening poster: that is, the person who started the thread. |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: Vic Smith Date: 17 Jul 11 - 06:46 AM Careful, Norman, you mean Folk Roots not fRoots. I got my wrist slapped for that if you read the earlier part of this thread. |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: GUEST,NormanD Date: 17 Jul 11 - 06:27 AM (Still logged out with a lost Cookie....) Mr Miles, I do wish that you'd live up to your nom de plume a bit more and show some of the subversive humour and anti-authority pranksterdom of Joseph Svejk. You do have a sense of broygis, that's for sure, quite impressive - almost as good as some in my own family. An anon throw-away comment from 20 years back shouldn't *really* reflect on your present competence or confidence, but only you can answer that one. Comedian / raconteur Stewart Lee revels in taking the worst one-line reviews he's ever received and using them proudly in his advertising. Now that's more Svejk: "Humbly report, sir. I'm an embarrassment of a blues singer, as stated in fRoots magazine. And they should know. They don't even give out stars". |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Jul 11 - 05:53 AM what's OP? |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: Lonesome EJ Date: 16 Jul 11 - 11:05 PM Right, michael, the old hammer 'n tongs approach! |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: GUEST,999 Date: 16 Jul 11 - 10:52 PM The OP ain't keepin' this thread going. |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: michaelr Date: 16 Jul 11 - 09:22 PM Pretty laborious way to go viral... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: Lonesome EJ Date: 16 Jul 11 - 06:27 PM Hmmm....motive? How about driving up hits on a youtube video? |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: michaelr Date: 16 Jul 11 - 05:50 PM Why should we care? |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: Gibb Sahib Date: 16 Jul 11 - 04:02 PM What's even more absurd: we haven't even seen what the review said. Allegedly, the *title* of this thread is a quote from it (yet it's misspelled?). Is this verbatim? What's the surrounding context? |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: Folknacious Date: 16 Jul 11 - 08:08 AM Does anybody else think that wingeing on and on and on about a minor slight in a review published decades ago in a small publication of little importance is carrying ridiculous grudges to a dangerous level of self-obsession? What are the ethics on a public Forum when we spot a fellow member who is possibly in need of counselling or medication? |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: Spleen Cringe Date: 15 Jul 11 - 01:13 PM Mongolian nose flutes, Eskimo rap artists, Zulu bongo players and tuneless geriatric ballad singers of any and all nationalities We need more of this not less! Meanwhile here's Love Will Tear Us Apart Tuvan-style... |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: Vic Smith Date: 15 Jul 11 - 09:46 AM I made a field recording trip to the Far East a few years back, with the hopes of taping stuff for the making of an album of the famed Japanese fisherman's arsehole singing tradition. Listening to the tapes back in my studio, I was disappointed to find that most of the singing sounded rather flat(ulent). |
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Subject: RE: an embarassment as a blues singer From: GUEST,Callingbird Date: 15 Jul 11 - 09:45 AM Mark Spoelstra's version I found really, really, good. Not a clue about technical merit..blah blah...or who SHOULD be better than another. I just know what I heard was good. Thanks for the link, Tunesmith. |
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