BS: An Easter Question

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 08:50 AM

1955 was a long time ago.
The oath required in court was like that then.

The forces now recruit people from all religions and none so that oath would no longer be acceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 06:04 AM

We used that Cockney ending to songs (you know, diddle iddle dah dah - BOM! BOM!) for the end of the Lord's Prayer. "Life everlasting - Amen!"
But our Brown Owl overheard us once and was Very Cross. No dancing round the toadstool for us that night.

I also remember several very irreverent Christmas Carols, which are no doubt on the music database here. One was very Norfolk as it had Anglia Square (a shopping centre in Norwich) in the verse:-

'We three kings of Anglia Square
Selling ladies' underwear.
They're fantastic, no elastic,
Seventy pence a pair...'

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 02:58 AM

Jesus loves me,
That I know.
Good old Jesus!
Jolly good show!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 01:01 AM

...errrrm.. well I had second thoughts about the first instant draft version of that daft gag...

..jesus loves you, yea, yea, yea....



not that he was ever as popular as the beatles of course.. 😇


[that one is for John Lennon fans]

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 08:25 PM

I'm relieved you used a capital Q there. 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 04:14 PM

The Queen loves you, yea, yea, yea...??? 👑

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 04:02 PM

Not enough yeas there.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 04:01 PM

Yet the good Lord is alleged to have said to let your speech be yea and nay nay.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 03:45 PM

Interesting question. According the Wikipedia:

All persons enlisting in the British Army and the Royal Marines are required by the Army Act 1955 to attest to the following oath or equivalent affirmation:

I... swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will, as in duty bound, honestly and faithfully defend Her Majesty, Her Heirs and Successors, in Person, Crown and Dignity against all enemies, and will observe and obey all orders of Her Majesty, Her Heirs and Successors, and of the generals and officers set over me.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 03:35 PM

..just to clarify - now I'm older and more experienced.. I'm not actually anti military..

Some aspects of army life appeal..

The question I was aiming at is would a healthy young keen committed volunteer
be rejected if he/she requested to abstain from any religious oath of allegiance to the monarch ???


Plus, I reckon my dad would have paid lip service to any old bollocks oath
because he was that excited about joining the RAF
and having a chance to play with all the toys...

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 03:18 PM

Sez Joe 03 Apr 16 - 05:51 PM : But yes, there are exceptions - lots of them.

Jeez, Joe - looks like those exceptions are increasing exponentially!

-----

Weeks after moving to name a high-powered rifle as the official gun of Tennessee, lawmakers in the state are keeping alive their prolific tradition of declaring official state designations by passing a bill that would make the Bible the state's official book.


>Article Here

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 02:45 PM

Out of interest, do some traditionalist monarchists genuinely believe the queen rules by divine right
and that royalty are a direct bloodline back to god !!!???

No.

.. and.. If I was a young bloke now.. who'd might find a life in the military quite fulfilling.

Many do. All volunteers.

what about all that swearing allegiance to crown and god..!!!???

Would I be refused entry if I said no thanks... ???

Of course. You have to volunteer.

Could my dad have got off national srevice if he'd insisted he was an atheist ???

No.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 10:28 AM

sorry.. for the tendency to overlook christian socialists..
mostly because my awareness of religious folk tends to be the vociferous right wing christian establishment who believe they still run society....

[oh.. what.. they do !!!]

Out of interest, do some traditionalist monarchists genuinely believe the queen rules by divine right
and that royalty are a direct bloodline back to god !!!???

.. and.. If I was a young bloke now.. who'd might find a life in the military quite fulfilling..

what about all that swearing allegiance to crown and god..!!!???

Would I be refused entry if I said no thanks... ???

Could my dad have got off national srevice if he'd insisted he was an atheist ???

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 08:56 AM

There are certainly a lot of "the religious right" but we need to be careful in our assumptions: I am definitely on "the religious left" being a Labour party member and currently mulling over whether I can afford the dent in my leave allowance to attend conference this year..

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 08:04 AM

I was born at the very end of the 1950s - a child of the swinging/hippy 60s..
a teenager of the glamrock / punk rock 70s...

I at least benefited from growing up in an era of progressive counter culture and radical politics..
Those extramural influences of lurid exciting popular culture which made it easier to see a different approach to life
than the authoritarian conformist brainwashing at school and in mainstream society & culture....

We thankfully no longer suffered National Service to make us get our hair cut and form us into compliant obedient militarised model citizens,
but we did have to endure the pernicious attempts of prominent organised right wing christian pressure groups
forcing their restrictive beliefs upon us
by their constant lobbying of government, press and media.

The likes of reactionary figure heads like Mary Whitehouse, may have been laughing stocks to us punk rock teenagers,
but she did wield real power over what we could or couldn't try to do in personal relationships and artistic expression....

Yes we can laugh now at christian parent groups picketing Sex Pistols Concerts,
but we had our own local petty version in our small town who did her best to close down our events and venues
and quell any positive 'insurrectional' freedom of expression..

we were just teenagers with electric guitars.. not anarchist bomb plotters fer f@cks sake !!!???..

Yes I was lucky my parents refused to have me christened and send me to church every Sunday.

But the religious right status quo still got to me at school with relentless subtle and not so subtle brainwashing.
So I still had my unfair share of worries and confusion about afterlife and eternal damnation to contend with until into my early 20s..

The Degree I chose to study concentrated on Ideology - theories and concepts of influence and control..
So up until my mid 30s I was something of an 'expert' on the topics churning up in this thread...

But i gradually caved in to the pressures of life and self numbed my intellect as a coping mechanism...

That's why [as I said a day or 2 ago] I find this thread a very useful and healthy refresher course....


btw.. sorry for this long freeform ramble, but I'm bored waiting in for an amazon logistics delivery..

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 08:03 AM

An interesting article here.

Article

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 06:22 AM

Grrr.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 06:21 AM

Well way back in the dim and distant past I DID rail against that as a matter of fact.

The reason we home in on Catholicism or Christianity is because that happens to be the background of most people here. I can read about Islam, for example, but I haven't had that lifelong learn-as-you-go immersion in it that would enable me to comment on it as fruitfully as I can on the faith that was foisted on me from birth. I'm guessing that that applies to most people here. I'm not scared of talking about Islam, but I wonder how many people here would feel comfortable as rank outsiders in extensively criticising its practices on this forum. I doubt that the mods would love us for doing that either. We talk more about Christianity because, to some degree, most of us are insiders.

Incidentally, one of the absurdities of religion is the routine enforced chanting of prayers. At school we did the morning offering, grace before meals and one or two others that escape me now. At my secondary school one Salesian brother even had us doing the Angelus if we happened to be in his lesson at noon. I can say with considerable confidence that absolutely none of it ever stuck with any of us. It was no more than inane jumping through hoops. I see the US pledge in the same way. These things shouldn't happen but they're hardly going to deprave or corrupt their victims. Religion, so adept at loading guilt on to people and making escape difficult, has far more insidious ways of exerting control.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 02:24 AM


You're supposed to wade in, not just read. Never admit to boredom. You have the choice to avoid threads that bore you. Yet here you are, commenting on issues that you say bore you.

The boredom comes from the predictability of the responses, and counter-responses, and counter-counter-responses.   There are other ways of avoiding boredom, such as raising an aspect that we haven't discussed before, such as, for example, why one form of indoctrination is discussed all the time and others are completely ignored.

It's a bit too easy to say I could raise threads on these other aspects, or that this thread is about religion. Of course I could do so. But that does not address the issue why there is such a disparity in the behaviours. A thread could be on any topic and if some people see a legitimate reason to reference what they see as religious child abuse they will do so. I am not objecting to that. If it is legitimate, bring it in. But they (almost) never throw in that they think the US is indoctrinating children with its daily pledge of allegiance, for example.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 06:43 PM

What's your explanation of why we ignore all the other things you consider child abuse?

'Cause nobody starts a thread on 'em? Be my guest.   ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 06:20 PM

just some idle thoughts.. again back to my student days in the early 80s....

In literature, plays, movies, etc... frequently encountered characters were "lapsed catholics":
driving the drama though angst, bitterness, confusion, guilt, etc, they were suffering...

What ever the situation, scenario of the dramatic story, they certainly didn't seem to be very happy people...

Maybe a lot of writers of fiction were catholics...???

Irrespective of denomination..
I recall religious guilt as being very problematic for characters dealing with adolescent confused sexuality..

"Oranges are not the only Fruit" being a notable example..

In a 1960s - 80s culture where I grew through various forms of brainwashing,
religion seemed to me to be the most overt form of attempted control..
thankfully offset to some extent by popular media presenting stories and characters fighting back against it....

If I was 35 years younger I'd be able to knock off a 2000 word essay on this between now and tomorrow breakfast,
get on my bike, and hand it in to the lecturer 2 mins before deadline... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 06:06 PM

" As for boredom, I admit to that, because I don't think I have read anything especially new on this topic on mudcat for some years."

You're supposed to wade in, not just read. Never admit to boredom. You have the choice to avoid threads that bore you. Yet here you are, commenting on issues that you say bore you. You love it really! Read what people say. It isn't all the same. There's nuance, There's different angles. There's always a lot to learn.

Start threads on those other issues. I'll be right with you. But this thread is about religion and I didn't start it!

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 06:01 PM

Aye, there is that. One of my proudest moments was when my second eldest was about 14 and he refused to wear a branded tracksuit:-) Surely it is not beyond the wit of other parents to instill the same ethos?

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 05:20 PM

I wasn't being dismissive, or lumping arguments together, and I was certainly not being threatening, Steve. The "we know where that leads" comment was simply observing past history. You yourself said "when I make these points, as I frequently do" and i was just agreeing with you. I also acknowledged your consistency.. (Consistently is not the same as constantly, obviously). As for boredom, I admit to that, because I don't think I have read anything especially new on this topic on mudcat for some years.

Which is why I made the point that actually we indoctrinate children all the time in lots of different ways, so it is interesting why we only ever seem to address one form.

I think I'd take up punkfolkrocker's bet, because you can't just look at individuals. You have to think of things like smog in cities because of overuse of cars (because, after all, we've got the money so why shouldn't we have a car?.) Maybe ISIS will prove me wrong by grabbing nuclear weapons somehow, but I would think out-of-control consumerism is more likely to damage us as a species than religion.


Dave of the Gnomish qualities: I did not mean we are formally teaching consumerism in
Economics lessons in schools: I meant how every advert, many children's programmes and, of course, adult example teaches children to be avid consumers. Schools, if anything, are one of the few forces trying to hold this back by encouraging children to "think green" but it is them against the rest of society.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 03:49 PM

Of the 3 you mention,cousin McGnome, I would only class patriotism as coming close to indoctrination and to that to any child is wrong. The other 2 are economic constructs which, as a child, I had neither clue nor interest in. When I began to study economics and politics at around 16 we were taught consumerism, free markets, socialism, communism and everything in between. If religion was taught in such a comparitive way I would have no issue. I am told it is now like that now but, like Steve, I was brought up in 1950s Catholicism and, prior to that, Russian Orthodoxy. I would like to say it did me no harm but some would agree to differ ;-) I wouldn't like to risk it happening to my own children and grandchildren so, I hope, I gave them the wherwithall to make up their own minds. Seems to have worked out OK.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 03:25 PM

"As you say, Steve, you make that argument frequently and consistently. And we disagree."

There are lots of arguments embedded, not just the one. It's typical of the defensive Christian to lump them together dismissively. Unfortunately, that is exactly what your post does. "Frequently and consistently." Gosh, you sound almost bored. And why NOT frequently and consistently? One day I may just get an honest response that doesn't waffle about deeper truths and things held sacred and that what Christians do to the children who are future of this planet is none of my business. But you absolutely don't owe it to me. Just like I don't owe it to you to stop making what I consider to be a fair case against the terrible harm that religion does to people.

"And we both know where that leads"

That is just negative. I'm happy to keep making the case. You're free to ignore. Look what's happened on this probably-doomed thread. Who's set the tone for the crash to come? It does not have to happen. Everyone here is free to rise above the crap. You, me and Joe, right? "We both know where that leads" almost sounds like a threat.

"So for a change of perspective, don't you think we also indoctrinate children with other beliefs - consumerism, patriotism, free markets and the like, which can also have huge impact? Are they also abusive? I don't see anything as many posts about those."

I absolutely couldn't agree more. Pity you're not here to hear me burbling on incessantly to Mrs Steve about exactly all those things. Unfortunately, I don't usually start threads. I suppose that makes it my fault that we don't discuss 'em enough. My wrist is considering itself slapped.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 02:31 PM

That's nice and clear, Greg.i agree it doesn't mitigate the role of religion. But we have discussed that to death. What's your explanation of why we ignore all the other things you consider child abuse?

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 02:21 PM

don't you think we also indoctrinate children with other beliefs - consumerism, patriotism, free markets and the like, which can also have huge impact? Are they also abusive?

Yes.

But that doesn't mitigate the role of religion.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 02:05 PM

Keith, I am not in the least surprised by your post of 10.23. In fact it was everything I expected of you.









Isn't religion a wonderful, all embracing thing. A delight to behold in all it's golden glory.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 02:04 PM

Maybe we need reports and evidence from mental health researchers
as to which of these institutionalised forms of societal indoctrination
are significant factors in most prevalent diagnosed mental health problems... ???

I might risk betting that religion screws up more individuals...

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 02:02 PM

Firstly apologies for the typing on the previous post. My android is contrary to say the least.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 01:55 PM

As you say, Steve, you make that argument frequently and consistently. And we disagree. And we both know where that leads.

So for a change of perspective, don't you think we also indoctrinate children with other beliefs - consumerism, patriotism, free markets and the like, which can also have huge impact? Are they also abusive? I don't see anything as many posts about those.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 12:34 PM

I walked into towwn for a pint. I passed one defunct catholic church, I could see aan abbey and protestant I church saw three union flags on this bit. I crossed the bridge aand could see another catholic church and another two protestant churches. Two English flags and a Scottish soltaire. I then passed aa methodist church and a c of e chapel. In the pub they are selling abbey ale and when I sneezed three people said bless you

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 12:28 PM

It's perfectly clear that my post went right over your head, akenaton. Try listening, but failing that don't bother to respond.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 11:58 AM

Faith is not about to make anyone ill? It can make you very ill if you happen to be a member of the wrong faith in the wrong place!

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 11:35 AM

Well in my world, I know of no one who is forced to practice religion, or to think Christianity is the only or true religion.

Where I live and I suppose the rest of the UK one can choose religion or reject it, personally I think there is good and bad in religion, but the good certainly outweighs the bad.
I know a few atheist/agnostic families where one or more of the children have turned to a faith based life and some devout families who's children have rejected religion.

I think perhaps you have got the whole issue completely out of proportion, obsessiveness can eventually become a serious problem when there is nothing to reinforce it.
It is surely all a matter of personal choice, after all, "faith" is not about to make anyone ill?

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 11:05 AM

Hell, Dave, the Professor doesn't know the rules of his OWN game!

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 11:04 AM

A very serious impact of religion on millions of people's lives is what is unashamedly my biggest beef with religion. Tiny babies are signed up into religions the world over. No choice there. Typically, they will spend the next decade and a half, or more, being force-fed the dogma of their parents' particular faith. This will be reinforced strongly by religious miseducation in schools and by clerics performing religious rituals in religious buildings in which the children will be told that mythology is the unalloyed truth and will be made to chant prayers or sing hymns which are full of certainties. No choice there either. Now many of us who went through all this (and my personal experience was relatively benign compared to many) managed to shake it off as adults. Many do not. Any choice they may have in the matter is swept under the carpet. Next time you speak to a Muslim, ask them what the penalty is for apostasy, then still tell me if you think they have free choice.

Organised religions depend on this early-life recruitment. Of all the disagreeable aspects of religion, that must be by far the worst (at least since they stopped burning people at the stake for heresy or imprisoning scientists). We are confronted by obscene terminology such as Muslim children, Catholic children and Protestant children. But without it there would be no organised religion to speak of. Very few adults in their right minds who had been properly educated, as opposed to brainwashed, would willingly sign up. Otherwise intelligent and caring parents see nothing wrong with their children being taught that the faith they themselves happened, by sheer accident of birth, to be born into is the only true one.   

In the above I have not parodied or caricatured religion. There is no ridicule and there is no personal attack. I have not said that it's wrong to have belief. When I say these things, as so often I do, the usual response from believers is shifty denial. Seldom is any convincing justification put forward for these scurrilous practices. My view is that they know that there isn't any justification, but it doesn't seem to matter to them because their religious practices with their children, no matter how morally shaky, are generally wrapped up inside a warm and fuzzy community ethos. Well to me that isn't right. In fact, it's abusive. Free choice, which religion fears, would consist of neutral and comprehensive education about world religions, which I'd heartily support, and a no-pressure invitation to sign up as adults only. The right thing, but zero chance of it ever happening.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 10:38 AM

Raggytash, the things you mention don't impact on my life at all.
They may make some people slightly annoyed, but "impact", isn't that a bit strong?
What sort of life is damaged by such an impact?

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 10:23 AM

Sorry Keith. I forgot that you kept a set of secret rules just for these purposes. Using the phraseology from another thread, my bad.

Tell me something though. Does it not get a bit boring playing a game that only you know the rules for?

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 10:23 AM

No.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 10:20 AM

"The thread was made into another anti religion bash"

Perhaps then you can start to understand how those of us who do not subscribe to any given religion feel about the constant, incessant, unrelenting religious battering we get on a daily basis.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 10:13 AM

Dave,

I thought we were discussing an Easter question.

Not for some time. The thread was made into another anti religion bash.

Are you saying it is acceptable to bring a persons previous posting history into play instead of addressing the actual points involved?

Previous posting history on the current issue, yes of course.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 09:48 AM

I remember the euphoria of Tony Blair becoming prime minister... until he publicly declared he was a christian...

Cameron's recent televised tripe about us being a christian country had me shouting at the telly like a lefty Alf Garnett... 😠

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 09:41 AM

"proceeded"... ????

of course I meant to type "presided"....

I need a strong mug of black tea.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 09:40 AM

Or the numerous radio and TV programmes every day or Cameron spouting on about a Christian country we all live in (which incidentally is nonsense, how many "Christians" actually attend a church)or swearing the bible in a court of law. I could go on, at length but it's all been said before.

Religion is deeply engrained in our daily life whether you accept it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 09:30 AM

Religion has no impact on my life. I can choose which parts to accept and which to reject.

How do you reject Sunday trading laws? Or the 26 unelected Bishops that sit in house of Lords and decide our fates? Or the fact that some of our national holidays are of religious significance?

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 09:24 AM

PFR Misogyny is not confined to members of the clergy. I myself have been accused of being a misogynist by a very intelligent member of this forum, because I did not believe Mrs Clinton was "Presidential material"

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 09:18 AM

Raggytash, what particular aspects of religion have an impact on your life?....Religion has no impact on my life.
I can choose which parts to accept and which to reject.
If I choose to reject it all I am at liberty to do so.
I do not feel the need to ridicule those who think differently.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 09:14 AM

My brother in law is a full time pro evangelical minister with his own church and congregation.
I'd guess I'd probably have not his first choice for seducing his sister away from the flock

[..errrr....but she did seem very keen and an enthusiastic learner...]

I meet him every now and then for family gatherings I can't get out of,
and I've seen him preaching and speachifying...

He's a decent sharply intelligent bloke with a very funny sarcastic sense of humour.

I'm aware of some of his fixed church views on certain keycontentious issues.

But away from his job, at family meals or restaurants we get on ok, as we never have discussed religion.

On the other hand one of the other ministers who proceeded over the wedding of my wife's nephew,
was a very nasty hostile piece of work.. instantly dislikable in his intolerance.
His sermon at the wedding even had believers cringing and wincing...
He definitely made it clear how much he he despised 'feminists' when outlining the wifely virtues...

I wish I had a recording of that vile shite's sermon for evidence, because it still leaves a bad taste when I think of it...