BS: G.B. and N.I.?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 04:57 AM

Just for Teritowelling

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 04:40 AM

Well you never know Jom your new word "cunturies" might just make it into the new Irish dictionary

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 04:38 AM

Steve Shaw - 29 Aug 17 - 04:07 AM

God, is he still at it?

"Your assumption on "Heather" is incorrect it is a species of plant life indigenous and native to the British Isles."

No-one has said any different. I haven't seen anyone making that assumption.

Now let us just refresh our memories shall we Shaw:

"Little if any heather moorland in the UK is natural vegetation." - Steve Shaw

Are you now denying that you wrote that Shaw?


In actual fact Shaw the UK possesses 75% of all the natural heather moorland left on the planet it is environmentally more endangered than the rain forest.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 04:31 AM

"Ireland still re-jigging the Battle of the Boyne."
You seem to have found your level with out two Little Englanfders Al
May you be very happy together
"Ah Carroll my little whinging scouser, to me, you will always be - Jom -"
Yup - insecure as ever - with a lack of imagination that has never taken you beyond a typo for invective
To me you will be the epitome of the worst of a dead Empire and, from the looks of it, a Britain that has been sunk by its own self-importance and fear of anything foreign
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 04:30 AM

Dublin should tell the EU that if a hard border is to be imposed on them, they will leave too.
Perhaps, in private, they do.

Steve, of course Dublin does not want a hard border, but it is part of EU.
EU/Dublin does want a hard border.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 04:15 AM

Couldn't agree more with what you have stated in your last post Big Al.

The "game" has indeed moved on.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 04:12 AM

no our aim is to leave the EU.

i was watching nigel lawson on late night telly a couple of days ago.

he was saying, that basically the remainers didn't understand that the game has moved elsewhere. the areas of rapid economic expansion in the world are the pacific nations and we have to get our relationship sorted out with these countries, tying up with Europe would screw that up.

its a point of view i hadn't considered.

either way - we can't afford to get bogged down with Ireland still re-jigging the Battle of the Boyne.

they've wanted independence for yonks. let them have it for gawdsake. they deserve each other.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 04:12 AM

That simple issue Shaw is relates to a question that you and your pals have asked of Keith A and I believe that he has fully explained it.

Now here is an equally simple issue for you and your pals to address:

The EU Commission dictates that hard borders must be imposed between the EU and non-member states - Does Eire as an EU member state comply with that ruling or is it free to negotiate it's own arrangements regarding the border between it and the UK?

Wonder how well they will cope with EU correspondence after we leave and English is no longer an "official" EU language.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 04:07 AM

God, is he still at it?

"Your assumption on "Heather" is incorrect it is a species of plant life indigenous and native to the British Isles."

No-one has said any different. I haven't seen anyone making that assumption. You accuse others of being too apoplectic to get things right, etc., yet you yourself routinely misread posts, fail to follow threads before wading in feet-first and regularly completely misrepresent others. Go and have a lie down. The older you get, the worse you become.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 04:01 AM

"Heather (Calluna vulgaris), the sole species in the genus Calluna in the flowering plant family Ericaceae found widely in Europe and Asia Minor was not natural - On the other hand I do believe that the vast expanses of heather that can be found in Scotland are perfectly natural and that no-one planted them."

This is all based on a complete misunderstanding both of what I said in the thread and of how plant communities come about. As I have no wish to "boast" about my academic prowess (oh, how the jealous and educationally-deficient do moan!), I won't belabour the thread with further explanations. Perhaps someone could be arsed to start a dedicated heather thread, in which I'd be delighted to put both "Historian-manqué Bill" and Iains right apropos of their lack of knowledge. Naturally, it would be an uphill struggle, as with any endeavour that has to begin at point zero, but I believe I'd be man enough to address the task.   

On the substantive, all we want to know is how Keith knows that Dublin WANTS a hard border. Stop shirking that very very very very VERY simple issue, Teribus. Otherwise you make yourself look like the willing captain of a ship of fools.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 04:01 AM

Ah Carroll my little whinging scouser, to me, you will always be - Jom - an incoherent ranting prat who gets so apoplectic that he cannot even get his own name right.

Here by way of an example you have done yourself proud - a real "Jom" classic - "examples of little the Britain strutting that plundered the world for centuries and left behind a legacy of destroyed cultures and impoverish people - effin' Priceless!!!!

What legacy of destroyed cultures Jom? What impoverished people?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 03:56 AM

The UK can't have whatever border it likes. It has to reach agreement with people on the other side of the border

That is true, but our aim is to achieve an open border, and if that is not achieved it will be because the other side does not want it.
That will hurt Ireland but EU is willing for its members to take a hit as long as UK is hurt too.

What they fear above all is UK emerging unscathed or more prosperous after leaving. They will accept a high price to be paid by remaining members like Ireland to avoid that.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 03:44 AM

"To state the bleeding obvious once again. THe UK can't have whatever border it likes. It has to reach agreement with people on the other side of the border."

Graphic illustration to disprove the above:

Eire - X to XX - Border - Northern Ireland

Where X = vehicle and goods checks, XX = checks on persons (Passport Control)

Everything on the Eire side of the border is dictated to the Irish Government by the EU Commission as the Republic of Ireland is an EU Member State and MUST abide by rules set by the EU Commission.

What happens on the UK side of the border is decided by the UK and as shown above that can consist of nothing (OUR choice - which is the whole point of leaving).

Your assumption on "Heather" is incorrect it is a species of plant life indigenous and native to the British Isles.

"Biologist" Steve can be as proud as he likes but what he has no right to do is to attempt to say in a discussion that "You cannot contradict me because I've got a degree in (whatever) and you must accept what I say". Which is basically what he did on that thread - Iains however stood his ground and subsequently demonstrated, with relevant links to back his argument up, that he did know what he was talking about.

The "Irish" have been fighting the "Irish" since the beginning of time (Note to Gnome and to Raggy in this context the phrase "the beginning of time" is merely an expression - it does not mean literally from the beginning of time). The very first thing they embarked on having won their "independence" was a civil war.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 03:28 AM

"Jom,"
My you really are an insecure little flower
Your bulling attempts to talk down people are living examples of little the Britain strutting that plundered the world for cunturies and left behind a legacy of destroyed cultures and impoverish people
Pakistan is at present remembering the million dead that partition brought to that part of the world
"it will be the EU who will dictate the border on the Irish side, not Britain"
It is the Little England, racist nature of Brexit that has brought about a situation of ruined economies and a possibly destroyed peace process.
Blaming Europe for the consequences and above all, the total incompetent way the Prime Minister has handled theses negotiations really is a joke.
Your "guess" as to whether the six counties will remain is on per with the amount of thought that has gone into this whole sorry affair, which has included billion£ bungs to political parties with terrorist connections at a time when the Government screams poverty whenever the health service is mentioned.
Your crowd has degraded Britain - its efforts on negotiation have become a daily running joke and any claims of democracy have become, like Woody Guthrie's soup - "so thin you could read a newspaper through it"
Rule Britannia eh !!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 03:13 AM

in truth its more the repeated claims of total blamelessness of Ireland for its many problems that piss me off.

its so bleeding obvious that it kept worrying at religious differences that the rest of the UK was getting secular and sensible about. not only that - they export this trauma. my own mother was threatened by Irish priests as a child with hellfire and damnation, because for some reason she wasn't brought up like the other kids in the family as a Catholic.

I think she spent the rest of her life trying to compensate for that - trying to be as holy as her sister, albeit as a Quaker. guilt merchants!

on your other point. To state the bleeding obvious once again. THe UK can't have whatever border it likes. It has to reach agreement with people on the other side of the border. Which leads me to think - we should up sticks and leave them to it. They want to be part of the EU - great! Let 'em go for it!

whatever happens, they're going to blame us. being blamelees must be marvellous. i suppose its the burden of all that original sin - its got to be shared out somehow.

Steve has every right to be proud of his academic achievement. i wish i had a few more. i suppose the heather is a bit like the hydrangea and the coypu rat. welcome immigrants. if only we could get the hairy mammoth back on the same basis!

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 02:31 AM

The "biologist jibe" Big Al comes from Steve Shaw boasting of his University degree and his specialisation in "The (in)glorious Twelfth" Thread. Where he attempted to academically intimidate and put down Iains who was absolutely slaughtering him in the discussion point by point - there was also something about Shaw's belief that:

- Heather (Calluna vulgaris), the sole species in the genus Calluna in the flowering plant family Ericaceae found widely in Europe and Asia Minor was not natural - On the other hand I do believe that the vast expanses of heather that can be found in Scotland are perfectly natural and that no-one planted them.

The thread which was proving to be very informative, in quite a number of ways, was closed for some obscure reason - ours not to fathom why.

Liked your point about debate indicators Big Al - Raggy has just demonstrated it perfectly. Having danced on the head of a pin over Keith A's "throw away remark" for long enough he reacted exactly in the manner described when the reality of the situation, i.e. that Eire is a member of the EU and will have to abide by the decision the EU Commission makes on the border between the North and the South when the time comes - The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland on the other hand can have whatever border they want and decide upon on their side and, as Keith A has pointed out a definite statement has been made by the British Government that they wish to see no change in the nature of that border.

Also totally agree with you on the attempts to portray "Oirland" as being an idyll of peace, tranquillity, equality, harmony and prosperity in the days before the arrival of those nasty Normans.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 08:47 PM

you get called all sorts of stuff on mudcat. sometimes you'd be made of iron not to get offended.

by and large. i suppose we ask for it - hanging round on this site. after a while you know which characters are going to trot out which insults.
basically theres two classic ploys to avoid saying 'you have made a fair debating point':-
1) gratuitous insult
2) cut and paste a load of garbage that no one has time to read

where does the biology jibe have its origins?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 06:08 PM

Actually, Raggytash, I rather like being called "Biologist Steve",though what biology has got to do with this thread does escape me somewhat. Anyway, to be called such a nice name by "Historian-manqué Bill" is rather a privilege. 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 06:03 PM

I missed the bit where Ghandi toured POW camps and tried to persuade members of his ethnic group to fight for Germany. Or where he tried to import guns to kill Englishmen.

Obviously that was left out of our textbooks.

England's behaviour contrasts so dramatically with the wise compassionate line on traitors taken by the IRA.

I certainly had been told about the Irish famine of the 1840's by the last year of my primary school in 1960. We were also told about England's disgraceful behaviour towards the people of Ireland. It was in our textbooks.

the relentless line about the perfection of Ireland gets a bit wearing you know.
Even Keith and Teribus aren't daft enough to pretend that.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 05:36 PM

Would you like me to trawl back through your posts Teritowel.

I am confident that you are far more aggressive than any other poster on this site.

Ever thought of taking an Anger Management course?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 05:21 PM

Oh dear Raggy:

Raggytash - 27 Aug 17 - 12:52 PM

"I should add that he is clinging on to that one quote rather than lose face, he really is a sad little cretin."

How civil, pleasant and reasonable of you.

Raggytash - 27 Aug 17 - 12:50 PM

"I know you think that personal abuse should not come into the equation but as another poster once said what do you do with a "Thick c**t"

Another example of what Raggy thinks is "fairly reasonable, tolerant and given the various protagonists polite, even the professor and myself have conducted yourselves with a good degree of sense.

Raggy you are a complete and utter JOKE.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 04:45 PM

"If Britain goes for a closed border Ireland gets the six counties back - even the North will not stand fro that"
Jim Carroll

Hope so Jom, but unfortunately what you state above is based on a founding assumption that to use Raggy's word is "Bollocks" because you see Jom - Britain is not going "for a closed border" as you put it. As Keith A has been at pains to point out it will be the EU who will dictate the border on the Irish side, not Britain, not London, not the Republic of Ireland, not Dublin.

But anyway the EU insist on a hard border, it is then up to the electorate of Northern Ireland to decide whether or not they want to be in the EU, and place that over all previous differences. They then call for a referendum, as is their right. They vote for Union and then the electorate of the Republic then get their chance to agree to that union with a referendum of their own. The Government of the Republic then get to take on an additional 1.8 million people along with all their advantages and problems. Irish unity would then have been brought about by concerns over trade instead of by the gun and bomb.

My guess? Northern Ireland will not vote for union over Brexit, they, like sensible people, will wait and see how it pans out. As for the electorate of the Republic I do not think that they will wish to take on the financial burden of the North.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 04:38 PM

"Steve, as I explained, I refer to EU/Dublin as a block because the nature of the border will be decided by EU.
Even Rag has accepted that"

Sorry KAOH I have not "accepted" that, although there MAY be some discussion to be had there.

The ONLY point I have argued is that DUBLIN does not want a hard border.

At present it would seem that the only party in this debate who DO want a hard border is the Democratic Unionist Party who hold the balance of power within the present UK Government.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 04:30 PM

Up until 09.51am this thread had been fairly reasonable, tolerant and given the various protagonists polite, even the professor and myself have conducted yourselves with a good degree of sense.

However, one poster, who has in the past complained vociferously about personal abuse has posted:

"Thanks for asking that rather childish and idiotic question "Biologist" Steve. Reveals and speaks volumes about you"

and

"Ah well Raggy, that's the trouble with "Biologist" Steve's SIDE - you fuckers wouldn't know Reality if it jumped up and slapped them about the face with a dead Flounder"

This one poster has altered the entire tone of the discussion, the same poster who has objected so much to abuse in the past.

I rest my case.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 03:45 PM

"but Dublin gets whatever EU decides."
Typical flag wagger
If Britain goes for a closed border Ireland gets the six counties back - even the North will not stand fro that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 03:42 PM

" 'interpretive distortions' with 'value-free history'. "
Keith
What Kineally said, in full
"interpretive distortions'
Your interprative distortions" referred to the fact that up to independence, no history including the Irish point of view was taught - none whatever.
Following independence, the new regime began to teach the bit that was banned - filling in the gaps and including the national Liberation struggles
These were filling in the gaps left by British censorship – the famine, the mass evictions, the forced emigrations, the land wars of the late 19th early 20th century, the centuries of national liberations rebellions – all the facts that had been left out of the British history books and had never taught in schools prior to independence
They were "simplistic" because, thanks to British administrations, they had never been deeply researched – they were there to give the Irish the culture that had been suppressed – no historian has ever at any time claimed that the facts were inaccurate, just that they were "simplistic".
This form of education, as Kinealy point out, went on till the late 1930s when, thanks to 'The Emergency', Ireland entered into economic crisis and needed a place to send its emigrants – Britain was the natural place to go
That's when the revisionists moved in and began writing history without blaming anybody 'value-free history'
All the bad deeds under British rule were totally ignored and an anodyne account was taught in schools
A typical example was that, up to that point, there was not a single work dealing with Ireland's great disaster - which included gross mismanagement, an accusation by the relief administrator that the famine was "God's Punisment"
The first book totally dedicated to "Ireland's Holocaust" ' The Great Hunger' did not appear until 1962, nearly 120 years after the events – and written by an Englishwoman, and that, while it castigated Britain for its cruelty, avoided political analysis – It certainly never CONTAINED ANY OF THESE DETAILS
It was not until the 150th anniversary of the famine in 1995 that Britain's role was examined in any depth and revealed the deliberate nature of the mismanagement.
The same with the 1917 uprising – it has taken a century to deal with it in any detail – now the Irish shops are full of scholarly studies.
Kinealy, who you quote without having read what she has to say , now totally supports Tiim Pat Coogan's view that the Famine was deliberately mismanaged. – but you have already agreed that
Britain has now officially apologised for its deliberate mismanagement o tha famine
For Christ's sake, if you are going to quote historians, read what they have to say instead of grabbing unrelated passages and quoting them out of context.
Irish historians are now back to examining Irish history in full and her Maj has all but apoliogised for history Britain's part in Irish history as a whole .
"It is a sad and regrettable reality that through history our islands have experienced more than their fair share of heartache, turbulence and loss ... with the benefit of historical hindsight we can all see things which we wish had been done differently, or not at all." "It is a sad and regrettable reality that through history our islands have experienced more than their fair share of heartache, turbulence and loss ... with the benefit of historical hindsight we can all see things which we wish had been done differently, or not at all."
MADGE SAYS SORRY
Al
If you believe Caement was a criminal, then so was Ghandi, Mandela, Moishe Dayan….. and every other national liberator who has fought for their country's cause
If any of you lot have any evidence that what was taught in schools was false – feel free to point it out.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 03:29 PM

Ah well Raggy, that's the trouble with "Biologist" Steve's SIDE - you fuckers wouldn't know Reality if it jumped up and slapped them about the face with a dead Flounder.

However, as usual, with you and your pals, while deriding something as being "bollocks", you somehow always seem to be unable to pick any holes in the line of reasoning or argument.

As someone who claims to read and listen to "news" from Ireland you seem to have forgotten that on two previous occasions the electorate of Ireland has said "NO" to the EU and on both occasions the EU told Ireland what to do and the Dublin Government secured the vote that the EU wanted and the electorate of Ireland did not.

What sort of border there will be between the EU and the UK will be dictated by the EU as far as their side of it goes ( - that Raggy is reality and another is that the Republic of Ireland is on the EU's SIDE ( "Biologist" Steve likes sides).

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 01:58 PM

Steve, as I explained, I refer to EU/Dublin as a block because the nature of the border will be decided by EU.
Even Rag has accepted that.

I acknowledged from the start that a hard border will be detrimental to the Irish on both sides, but Dublin gets whatever EU decides.

And we do have a clue that border sovereignty was an issue for many voters because surveys found it to be and it was a major item of the leave campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 01:48 PM

"You haven't a clue as to why the people voted to leave, Teribus, because they were asked only if they wanted to leave or not, not why."

Oh Dear, wrong again!

Sovereignty

On the day of the referendum Lord Ashcroft's polling team questioned 12,369 people who had completed voting. This poll produced data that showed that 'Nearly half (49%) of leave voters said the biggest single reason for wanting to leave the European Union was "the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK".

Immediately prior to the vote, Ipsos MORI data showed that Europe was the third most highly ranked problem by Britons who were asked to name the most important issues facing the country, with 32% of respondents naming it as an issue.
Immigration

Lord Ashcroft's election day poll of 12,369 voters also discovered that 'One third (33%) [of leave voters] said the main reason was that leaving "offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders."'

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 12:37 PM

You haven't a clue as to why the people voted to leave, Teribus, because they were asked only if they wanted to leave or not, not why. As for this Dublin thang, Keith said, without qualification, that the EU and Dublin WANT a hard border. We want to know what evidence he has for that. We know now that the answer to that is that he hasn't got any evidence. Nothing to do with what the EU might force Dublin to do. He clearly stated that Dublin WANTS a hard border. Why don't you read the thread properly before doing your feet-first Johnny-come-lately stunts?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 12:18 PM

That may be the stated position but how do they get the DUP to go along with it.

As the DUP effectively hold the balance of power any "stated position" could have the same chance as a snowball in hell.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 11:40 AM

It is not just May herself speaking personally Al.
This is the UK policy for the negotiations.

"Today, we publish a position paper which sets out how we want to approach these and other issues in the negotiations."

Not the "Royal We."
That is the stated position of the UK government, agreed by the UK government.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 11:29 AM

May is the leader. But only because Gove stabbed Boris in the back. She doesn't believe in Brexit - doesn't understand the faction of her party that does.

her hold is very fragile. if she had won the election convincingly, you could say with some confidence that she was in charge, as it is who knows how long she will keep this wonky wagon on the road.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 10:02 AM

There you have it.

A reasoned, well thought out, eloquent and intelligent resume of the picture.

Absolute Bollocks of course, but our resident oracle knows all.

Please feel free to put fuck into that last sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 09:51 AM

Steve Shaw - 26 Aug 17 - 05:32 PM

"Who's bloody side are you really on, Big Al?"

Thanks for asking that rather childish and idiotic question "Biologist" Steve. Reveals and speaks volumes about you.

By the way WE WILL see exactly what happens with regard to the border in Ireland - but it will be decided by Brussels and London - Dublin no matter what they want will be told what to do by Brussels - it's one of the main reasons the electorate of the UK decided to leave - It should be up to sovereign independent countries to decide what type of borders and border controls they have - not some remote, unelected "commission" sitting elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 07:31 AM

1. Teresa May spoke earlier this year and said there would be no General Election.

What May says and what May does are not necessarily the same thing, that truth applies to most politics and politicians.

2. "The first of those principles is stark: there should be no physical border infrastructure of any kind on either side of the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland. I want people to be absolutely clear: the UK does not want to see border posts for any purpose"

How on earth is she going to equate 2. with the DUP's stance of:

"The Democratic Unionist Party, which views the return of a hard border as reinforcement of Britain loyalty to Northern Ireland"

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 07:21 AM

Now that the government has to rely on the DUP for support who knows what may happen.

May made her statement under the current circumstances.

you've got a bloody funny idea of clarity. and the main ruling party has been running round like a headless chicken for decades on this very issue of Europe.

May spoke to clarify. All parties have their dissidents, but May is still the leader.
She said,
"Today, we publish a position paper which sets out how we want to approach these and other issues in the negotiations."

"I hope people in Northern Ireland and Ireland will see the UK Government is determined to protect the unique arrangements between Northern Ireland and Ireland, and the wider relationship between the UK and Ireland. Protecting your citizenship rights, and protecting the Belfast Agreement, are at the heart of our approach.
On the citizenship rights guaranteed by the Belfast Agreement, our position is clear. Northern Ireland remains an integral part of the United Kingdom, but it is also the permanent birthright of the people of Northern Ireland to hold both British and Irish citizenship.
This will remain the case, and people of Northern Ireland who are Irish citizens will remain EU citizens. The UK wants this guarantee confirmed alongside the other aspects of the Belfast Agreement as part of our withdrawal agreement with the EU.
We also want the EU funding that has helped victims of the Troubles and cross-community groups to continue at least until the current programme finishes.
We then want to go further, and explore a potential future programme of peace funding after we leave the EU.
This will need to be agreed between the EU, along with the UK and Irish Governments, but I have always said that as part of the deep and special partnership I want to negotiate between the UK and the EU, there may be specific and valuable EU programmes for which we want to agree the continuation of funding. Peace funding in Northern Ireland is one of them.
For those concerned about freedom of movement across Northern Ireland and Ireland, our proposal is clear: we want to maintain the reciprocal arrangements for the Common Travel Area and all the rights for our citizens that have existed in some form since 1922.
It allows British and Irish people to move freely across our islands, and is at the core of the deep social, cultural and economic ties that link us together.
It goes beyond just the ability to move between our islands without passport controls, and also means guaranteeing continuing rights for UK and Irish nationals to work and access public services.
We believe it is inconceivable that it could change, and we believe that can be agreed early in the talks.
Of course making sure the border remains as seamless as possible isn't just about free movement of people. We need to ensure there is no hard border enforced on the movement of goods.
While the UK will no longer be a member of the EU customs union, we have set out plans in this week's paper on customs to seek a deal that allows for the most seamless possible movement of goods between the UK and EU.
This is especially important for the movement of goods, not least in relation to agriculture. As Michel Barnier has said, we will need an unprecedented approach for the border here, and this will mean careful work and imaginative approaches but today we set out our key principles.
The first of those principles is stark: there should be no physical border infrastructure of any kind on either side of the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland. I want people to be absolutely clear: the UK does not want to see border posts for any purpose.
There are other vital issues we want to address: preserving North-South and East-West cooperation, and making sure the all-Ireland energy market is protected. All of this work only underlines the importance of getting the Northern Ireland Executive back up and running. That is an urgent goal for me and Secretary of State James Brokenshire. And it is one the Irish Government shares.
Today I want to reassure everyone in Northern Ireland, that the UK leaving the EU will not jeopardise things you value profoundly.
Your citizenship rights are permanent and inviolable; you will be able to work and live in Northern Ireland and Ireland exactly as now on a reciprocal basis; and we do not want any border posts between Ireland and the UK.
In addition, there can be no question of imposing a new customs border between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. That would be totally unacceptable to the UK Government.
I am determined to deliver a good Brexit deal for the whole UK, and my first priority is protecting the unique and special relationship between the UK and Ireland."

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 07:08 AM

" The tragedy now is that we have lost control over the outflow from the country of doctors, nurses, dentists, engineers and the other highly skilled people that we don't train ourselves."

Unmitigated rubbish! People came and went long before The EU was even dreamed of. Please give a link to the legislation where the UK prevented free travel of foreign nationals pre EU days.
And the idea that we do not train highly skilled people is a joke.
Perhaps a little rephrasing is in order?
and perhaps better research instead of quoting tired old ideology.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 06:49 AM

"Now that the net immigration figures are plummeting" ...

We need to be a bit careful here. We have the number of immigrants, the immigration rate (1st differential) and the change in the immigration rate (2nd differential). As I read the figures it is the second differential which is unusually high, but it is the number of immigrants that those who do object tend to object to.

I remember Mrs T once heralding an achievement because of a change in the third differential of whatever it was.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 06:06 AM

"Taking back control" was just one of the more brainless pro-brexit slogans. Now that the net immigration figures are plummeting, the phrase is redundant as far as controlling immigration is concerned. It never was an issue as far as taking back control of our laws, as all bar an infinitesimal number of EU laws were agreeable to us in any case. It seemed to me that every high-profile pro-brexiteer had been instructed to chant the slogan at least four times a minute. The tragedy now is that we have lost control over the outflow from the country of doctors, nurses, dentists, engineers and the other highly skilled people that we don't train ourselves. "Control of our borders" works one way only as far as people are concerned. Never mind. All those thousands of young people who are currently on "apprenticeships" (aka floor-sweeping and tea-making) on half the minimum wage will be able to step into the breach, I'm sure.

What a balls-up. Cheers, call-me-Dave. What a git.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 05:46 AM

Unfortunately the British side is not clear as some would believe. As Iains link states:

"In the EU referendum, Northern Ireland voted Remain by a majority of 56% to 44%. THE DEMOCRATIC UNIONIST PARTY, WHICH VIEWS THE RETURN OF A HARD BORDER AS REINFORCEMENT OF BRITAIN'S LOYALTY TO NORTHERN IRELAND at a time of increasing uncertainty about the future of the United Kingdom, will place Brexit at the heart of its general election campaign" (my highlights)

Now that the government has to rely on the DUP for support who knows what may happen.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 05:27 AM

One bit of the article which made me smile was:

"Critics pointed out that the absence of border checks would appear to contradict a key aspect of leave campaigners' pledge to "take back control"

A bit of a kick in the pants to some I would think, Farage, Gove, Johnson et al.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 05:23 AM

I hope Brexit does not reopen old wounds. The article below outlines the possible issues along with the history.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/apr/23/northern-ireland-brexit-border-old-wounds-troubles

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 05:19 AM

"A hard border will pose far more of a problem for Ireland than the UK."

I'm not sure about that statement Iains. The 2016 cross border trade from the Republic to the North amounted to 9.1 Billion.

The cross border trade from the North to the Republic was 13.6 Billion.

Together with all the other imponderables it is not clear who, if any, will benefit most and who, if any, will suffer most.

Border Control

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 05:11 AM

you keep saying that Keith - the British side is clear.

you've got a bloody funny idea of clarity. and the main ruling party has been running round like a headless chicken for decades on this very issue of Europe.

the idea that John Redwood and Theresa May would have similar views about anything regarding Europe is crazy. Both factions have some sort of claim to the middle ground.

how this translates into reality...god alone knows. and he's not letting on.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 05:01 AM

When I said "ensuring smuggling is not going on", I freely admit I chose the words carelessly. It is not a binary matter (it happens or not), but a quantitive one (how much does it happen).

So while Keith is right that 'some smuggling' has always gone on across that border, what matters is the amount, not whether it does.   And standard security analysis says if you want more control you have to harden the border, but if you are willing to accept a greater degree of cross border crime, you can soften it.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 04:28 AM

The reality is that nobody has a clue as to the border being hard or soft after Brexit.

The British side is clear that it does not want or need border posts.
Nobody has a clue what EU will agree to, but they do not want us to benefit from Brexit.

There has always been some smuggling across that border.
The paramilitaries raised millions by smuggling fuel at one time, and tobacco smuggling is still rife.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 04:02 AM

One of the strongest 'NO!!!' moments for me in the lead up to the Brexit vote was hearing Andrea Leadsom wave away discussion of the Irish border as a non-issue. Her case was that as we had a border pre-EU which worked (-ish), there would not be any difficulty doing that again. Brain not engaged, in my view at the time, and it is certainly turning out that way.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 03:14 AM

The reality is that nobody has a clue as to the border being hard or soft after Brexit. The entire issue is still up for grabs. Personally I see a hard border being introduced more out of EU spite than common sense. A hard border will pose far more of a problem for Ireland than the UK.


http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/taoiseach-very-confident-no-border-controls-after-brexit-457836.html

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 02:29 AM

theres going to be a wall, and the Mexicans will pay for it