Foul-mouthed Folkies

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 20 - 03:14 AM

The hard U is a Liverpool usage - the Irish favour 'fecking' (also used in Liverpool due to the high Irish influence
The toffs us 'fawking' because they think it makes them sound superior
I never heard 'Facking' - north of south of the Thames - a dyslexic form of mining, maybe?
They don't know what the word means in Wales - they don't go in for that sort of thing since The Chapel took over!
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 30 May 20 - 05:07 PM

Jim,

Foghorns across water, Mersey in your case, Thames in mine bear no resemblance to church bells through a few miles of a built up city.

It is still my opinion that a cockney would pronounce the word FUCKIN' rather than FACKING

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 30 May 20 - 01:13 PM

I don't think these verses were penned specifically for Fairmtoon labourers Steve...…..more to amuse his well heeled aristo supporters.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 20 - 01:06 PM

"very much in the traditional style"
The description in the notes suggest it is probably traditional - explicit it certainly is
Fairmtoun Labourers, like navvies, were capably and willing to use language far in excess of that - not at the Kirk maybe
Unlike Wales, where the chapel succeeded in virtually killing off the tradition, the 'Presies' only succeeded in driving it underground, where it flourished
Ireland is only now discovering the all-but suppressed 'blue-vein in its tradition
The religious suppression of the real nature of the tradition merits a study in itself
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 May 20 - 12:48 PM

I think the best word to describe that Scots piece, Jim, is explicit. It is a dialogue very much in the traditional style and there are many such pieces. Fairmtoon labourers of that period would not have found that bawdy foul language. It would have been seen as a true depiction of life.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 20 - 11:28 AM

One of my favourite Burns Songs - from @Merry Muses'
I wonder how it woul have fared at the nads of some of out folkie Mary Whitehouses :-)
Jim

4. WAD YE DO THAT? (Tune: John Anderson, My Jo)
M'Naught (MMC 'll) referred to this piece as "An old song before Burns's time," It is certainly the original of Burns' song "Lass, When Your Mither Is Frae Hame" (Aldine, II, p. 156), which Scott Douglas referred to as "a silly paraphrase" of the present song.
The tune, "John Anderson, My Jo," dates back at least to the middle of the 17th century. It was certainly a favorite with Burns, who also knew it as the tune to a bawdy song of that title (MMC '59, pp. 114-115) on which he based his own song of the same name (SMM, #260), as well as the tune of "Our Gudewife's Sae Modest", another piece of bawdry collected by Burns (see MMC '59, p. 135).
The present text was learned from MMC '59, p. 122, and the tune from MacColl's father.

1. Gudewife, when your gudeman's frae hame,
Might I but be sae bauld,
As come to your bed-chamber
When winter nichts are cauld;
As come to your bed-chamber
When nichts are cauld and wat,
And lie in your gudeman's stead:
Wad ye do that?

2. Young man, an ye should be so kind,
When oor gudeman's frae hame,
As come to my bed-chamber
Where I am laid my lane;
And lie in oor gudeman's stead,
I will tell you what,
He fucks me five times ilka nicht,
Wad ye do that?

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 20 - 10:43 AM

Look forward to the world opening up again Shug
Might be able to reciprocate in kid
There's a lovely article here by the somewhat prim Edith Fowk on Bawdy Canadian Folk Songs
I haven't got round to digitising the Australian study of children's 'dirty' songs, 'Shocking, Shocking, Shocking'

Pehaps we should take note of the wrning given by Iona and Peter Opie in their book on Children's Folklore, 'The Lore and Langhiage of Schoolchildren:

"Genuinely erotic verse, however, is unusual. That there are villains among children, as among adults, the News of the World offers frequent testimony; and from somewhere the ogre child acquires his strange salacious prescriptions, taking criminal pleasure in pressing them on juniors, and inscribing them on the walls of the school lavatory.
But we are not here discussing delinquents. The usual group of youngsters whispering together, passing some verse to each other and giggling, though they refuse to tell what it is, are probably interested in nothing more sordid than the deeds of nature, an intimate garment, or a crude word."

Pp. 95-96, Chapter 6, ‘Parody and Impropriety,   Lore and Language of Schoolchildren.Oxford at Clarendon Press Publishers 1959

They knew a thing or one, those people :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Shug Hanlan
Date: 30 May 20 - 08:38 AM

Thanks everone. Only on Mudcat could the topic go from folkies swearing, the pros & cons of F'ing & C'ing, Steve Earle, a joke about deaf guys, language last heard on repeats of "On The Buses", the acoustic properties of East London and Rabbie Burn's prick!

As a way of thanks send me a personal email, and, once I'm allowed to get to the Post Office, I'll send you one of my wee books. FUCKIN' FREE.

https://lizziemlove.wixsite.com/kerfufflepress

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 20 - 07:41 AM

Just remembered - Crochallan Fencibles
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 20 - 07:27 AM

Re - thread topic
It was said that a coule of the Clubs Robert Burs frequented, 'The Tarbloton Drinking Club' and 'The Fencibles', had the motto,
"Sing a song, tell a story or put your prick on the table"
This is not a new 'problem. by any means
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 20 - 06:33 AM

"believe the bells could be heard."
The definition was set long before the roar of London traffic, when the sound of bells would easily carry those distances on a calm day - or night
When I was a child you could easily hear the sounds of ships horns from the Mersey at least across the those distance - one of the great features of New-Year's Eve
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 30 May 20 - 06:13 AM

Sandman / Dick,

I know exactly where both churches are situated having entered this world about half a mile distant from one. I was querying the size of the area in which you seem to believe the bells could be heard.

Wikipaedia ? I Never use it.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 20 - 04:34 AM

I'm not debating the use of language that may have been acceptable at the time of the Notting Hill Riots or Enoch Powell Ake - it shouldn't be necessary as those events say enough - and were not allowed to anyway
Move on before you close the thread
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 30 May 20 - 04:27 AM

Grow up Jim, my anecdote concerned the words Hamish used and I suppose many here see them as foul.....but that was the language of the time. Hamish and indeed all the revival folk singers used phrases which would be deemed by some as "inappropriate", but F'ing and C'ing was rarely used, as most folk singers had more wit and vocabulary than to swear for audience affect.
Btw Hamish was one of the nicest and kindest people that I've met. and is widely regarded as such.
Take your obsession down amongst the "real" members.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 20 - 04:01 AM

I regard racism as "foul mouthed" as do others whose posting you have deleted Jeri - can't really see your problem ("blue" is a reference to the pencil used to make deletions in my vocabulary)
You choose to delete the reaction to the term "Darkie" yet are happy to allow the word stand, in all its glory
Yeah - well !!
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jeri
Date: 29 May 20 - 08:50 PM

Jim, attempt to locate a clue.
The thread title is "foul-mouthed FOLKIES

What people do you wish to discuss?

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 20 - 07:34 PM

It seems to have become practice of deleting commenets about racist languge but leving the racist language in
I'll try to work that one out
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jeri
Date: 29 May 20 - 07:00 PM

And my bad for the "BS section" part. We've had numerous threads about racist songs. Not so much about "folkies", though.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jeri
Date: 29 May 20 - 06:45 PM

Mrrzy, this one's about "blue" language. If you really want to talk about racist stuff, start another theread.

In the BS section.

Because we've nevr talked about that shit before.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 May 20 - 06:40 PM

I was thinking of terms that used to be normal ways of referring to groups to which you do not belong.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 20 - 04:36 PM

and to the one you refer to at cheapside even less 1.3 miles

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 20 - 03:55 PM

shoreditch to bow church is 2.8 miles, reasonableenough to call him a cockney whereas someone living in lewishan , definitely not

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 20 - 03:48 PM

wikipedia

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 29 May 20 - 02:59 PM

Dick Miles,

Where did you get that fanciful notion of the areas within hearing range of the bells of St. Mary le Bow?

Were they using a Marshall amp?

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 May 20 - 12:57 PM

Cunt is vulva, not vagina, if that is what you meant.

What about songs using now-banned vocabulary, like racial terms? Is that a different thread?

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 29 May 20 - 12:06 PM

Well I've always despised people who use the word for a woman's vagina, the word which describes the act of having sex between a male and female, or the word which refers to someone born to unmarried parents, as in some way dirty or discriminatory. The word bastard is thrown about with regularity amongst the "liberal" brethren in this forum and most of them do not seem the mind the other two words being used as terms of abuse either?

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Shug Hanlan
Date: 29 May 20 - 11:28 AM

I understand, and I'm interested in the notion of a class-based look at swearing. You Mudcatters probably know that Trotsky argued for fines on workers who swore in Soviet factories, seeing it as a product of oppression rather than a means of resistance. I only wish that when the Bolshevik high command was touring a foundry in Kiev, some wee Ukranian man shouted out his version of the Connolly/Allen gag,"Hey, who's that cunt with Stalin?"

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,Ake
Date: 29 May 20 - 08:32 AM

Hi Shug "Greyhound for Breakfast" was also my first dip into the world of JK....he caught the atmosphere brilliantly.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Shug Hanlan
Date: 29 May 20 - 08:14 AM

Not sure Hamish would have got away with that one in a Minneapolis folk club at the moment.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 29 May 20 - 07:42 AM

From memory, cursing was not totally banned, but it wasn't encouraged due to the make up of the audience which included quite a few children and older folk.
Had to laugh at Guest RA's reference to Hamish Imlach…..Hamish had quite a few parodies to the Black velvet Band, specially for Dunoon and the American base
"Her eyes they shone like diamonds,
Her neck it was just like a swan
And her "baubles" hung over her shoulders,
Held up by a big darkie's haun.

The arrangement of swan and the Glasgow "haun" was brilliant.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 May 20 - 06:38 AM

The F word has been used as a running joke on the f--k scene for many years. Punning with 'ferkin' in 'Bring us a Barrel'. The Kippers' 'Norfolk and Good', etc.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Nick
Date: 29 May 20 - 06:19 AM

And I just had a listen to his Solo Concert from 1974 and it has less swearing in it (one 'arse' on first track) than I would have expected for a live album.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Nick
Date: 29 May 20 - 05:53 AM

Were folk clubs of the time not just generally reflecting the usage of swearing in society? So just a matter of art reflecting society?

It was only in 1965 that Ken Tynan uttered the first 'fuck' on TV and even by Sex Pistols time in 1976 swearing was an extreme thing to be done in public or a broadcast or public performance met with shock. Or the reaction of 'it's something common people do who can't express themselves properly' (as an aside it's always seemed the case that education or class or 'position in society' is not a predictor of swearing in conversation). It's weird to think that the first time I heard my dad use the word 'fucking' was in about 1971. He'd been through the war and life but just not something he routinely used though he obviously did know it. I had been aware of 'all the words' for quite some years before that.

Still something of a choice. I don't think we swear when we play live (apart from inwardly when I play bits wrong) whether it's pubs or cafes or wherever. But that's not due to the policies of places but rather something 'unwritten' perhaps?

Here's a joke I told my mother years ago having warned her about the language. Would I tell it in public? - perhaps. The figures need updating! The second is how an unexpected word can have a reaction (about 15 secs onwards). I could tell that in public but I'm not sure how it would have been received in the 60's.

"Two lip-reading deaf guys walk into a pub. One turns to the other and says "You go find a seat...I'll get the drinks in".
He walks up to the bar and says, "Bartender, could I please have two pints of lager?"
"Certainly," replies the barman, "That'll be £10."
"Ten pounds?" gasps the deaf guy, "That's a bit steep!"
"Oh, we've got some music on tonight," explains the barman, "That includes your entry fee."
The deaf guy starts doing the twist and asks, "Is it Boogie Woogie?"
"No."
The deaf guy does his best John Travolta impression and asks, "Is it Disco?"
"No."
The deaf guy shrugs his shoulders, "Well...what is it then?"
"Country and Western"
The deaf guy laughs, picks up his drinks and brings them over to his friend.
"How much were they?" asks his friend.
"Ten pounds."
"Ten pounds?" gasps the friend, "That's a bit steep!"
"Oh, they've got some music on tonight," explains the first deaf guy, "That includes our entry fee."
The second deaf guy starts doing the twist and asks, "Is it Boogie Woogie?"
"No."
The second deaf guy does his best John Travolta impression and asks, "Is it Disco?"
"No."
The second deaf guy shrugs his shoulders, "Well...what is it then?"
The first deaf guy laughs, "Some cunt from Preston."

But I guess it's not 'swearing as punctuation and emphasis' which is perhaps what changed with Billy Connolly and was more like the rhythms of how people spoke day to day or people spoke with friends/in pubs etc? That wasn't there at the time that Billy Connolly was playing in folk clubs in the 60's into early 70's

When you mentioned Swarbrick and Nicol I thought you meant this from Cropredy album

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Nick
Date: 29 May 20 - 05:10 AM

Offence by dialect reminds me of a local Manchester radio news report many years ago commenting on a visit by Sir Vivian Fuchs and pronouncing it as 'fucks' because to pronounce it correctly would offend the local listeners as you can't say 'fooks' on radio.
And 'facking' is estuary English rather than cockney.

Here's Steve Earle not offending Americans in the intro to a song - quite a good line actually

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Shug Hanlan
Date: 29 May 20 - 04:30 AM

Love the notion of bumping into Kelman at the dugs. "Greyhound for Breakfast" was one of his first books I read. I got to know him a wee bit when he was briefly teaching at Glasgow Uni.

The comments on Steve Earle are revealing. With a few obvious exceptions (Pryor, Hicks, anybody in a David Mamet play), I don't think Americans are any good at swearing. They even effect others. The first time I heard swearing on an LP was Lennon's Plastic Ono Band LP ("Working Class Hero", "I Found Out") and thought it was really powerfully done. A couple of years later he's over in New York, hanging around Greenwich Village with a gang of yippies and swearing lamely in "The Luck of The Irish."

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 20 - 03:52 AM

fuckin is more the way cockneys said it when i was a child with a short u not a long u or an a

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 20 - 03:47 AM

Derek Brimstone was ORIGINALLY from Shoreditch i think
To be really specific, you must have been born within the sound of Bow bells. These are the bells of St Mary-le-Bow church in Cheapside.
The areas of the East End considered to be within bell-hearing range are Bethnal Green, Whitechapel, Spitalfields, Stepney, Hackney, Hoxton, Shoreditch, Bow, Mile End, Polar, Wapping, Limehouse and Millwall. Some authorities include the south London area of Bermondsey in this list
.So. yes he was

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 29 May 20 - 03:35 AM

I recall Hamish Imlach singing a parody of 'The Wild Rover':

'I'll go to a folk club
Take a shotgun along
And I'll shoot the first bastard
Who asks for that song' "

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Gordon Jackson
Date: 29 May 20 - 03:30 AM

'Facking' does not rhyme with 'backing'.

It's more like 'faa kinell'.

I agree with Hagman that Steve Earle's patter leaves something to be desired, but I could (and often have) listen to his singing, and his songs, all day long.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 20 - 03:20 AM

"Not sure why, but the Irish "fecking" somehow doesn't seem half as bad,"
Our late drinking bar was run by a humorous, very devout elderly lady, Mary Fahy, who let us in when the other bars closed, if we knew the right knock - (she died last year and we miss her terribly)   
Her only 'cuss-word' was "feck"
One night she reared up at the constant "fucking" that was commonlace - fairly harmlessly used
Someone said, "But you say "Feck" all the time Mary"
She looked puzzled - it meant something quite different to her "feckless"
Come back Mary - we miss you!
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 29 May 20 - 03:06 AM

Was Brimstone a cockney?
I have never heard the word pronounced "Facking" and a cockney would never pronounce the 'g' at the end.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Hagman
Date: 29 May 20 - 03:02 AM

The Kelman "variants" include "fucking," "fucked" etc....

To address your original question, I don't know of any folk clubs or festivals that have any prescriptive rules re: strong language (I'm in Australia BTW). In my experience, it's not ever been overdone, with one exception - as noted above, Steve Earle. Started to watch his set at the Port Fairy Folk Festival a couple of years ago, and after five minutes of his stage patter sounding like every second word was "fuck," I gave up. His singing was equally as boring.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Shug Hanlan
Date: 29 May 20 - 02:50 AM

Love the idea of "fuck" variants. Must try them sometime.

The Pope/priest gag was repeated by Connolly in his "Tall Tales and wee stories" book.

Swearing on stage can easily go wrong and bullying children in front of an audience is surely stretching the term "comedy".

The initial point of this post was to find out if folk clubs allowed foul language on stage. Thanks to everyone who shared their opinions.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 29 May 20 - 02:35 AM

James Kelman was an author and used cursing in his novels and short stories to correctly represent a section of the community usually working class Glaswegians of a certain type. The usage was not done for effect, but to correctly capture the life and communication of his characters.
I met Mr Kelman one evening at Shawfield dog track many years ago before reading any of his books.....he was observing everyone, the language of the bookies, their sign language and relationship with the punters.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 20 - 02:08 AM

the worst offence i witnessed was a lancashire folk comedian, Williamson. he persuaded a child to join him on stage[chippenham festival] then took the piss out of the boy,the audience turned against him and booed

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Hagman
Date: 28 May 20 - 08:54 PM

It's actually 2114 "fuck"'s and variants in "How Late it Was, How Late," according to Mr Microsoft's Word-counter...

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 28 May 20 - 07:23 PM

Not sure why, but the Irish "fecking" somehow doesn't seem half as bad, and a lot funnier than "fucking"! Count the "feckings" in Fascinating Aida's song "Cheap Flights" about Ryanair. And the "feckity feckity fecks".
I'm not keen on the current vogue for using the F word quite so liberally, especially on photo-shopped images on social media: a strategically placed rare instance has far more impact than peppering it willy-nilly every second word in a sentence.
I remember once, during a care home gig, one of the singers thought it would be really good fun to sing "Bloody Well Boozing": eyebrows went up and lead balloons went down, as all the "bloodys" rang out - and as for all that boozing, well, I mean.....!

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 May 20 - 05:34 PM

I've talked to Kelman about this and he said much the same as what Shug reported from Connolly - it's just the way working class Glaswegians speak, if you want to be realistic you have to put those words in. Calling it "swearing" misses the point.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 28 May 20 - 05:30 PM

"I don;'t like gratuitous profanities - is shows a lack of imagination and a waste of useful words"
No disagreement with that, Jim.
Dave Allen used to tell your story, but he had a nun instead of a priest.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Shug Hanlan
Date: 28 May 20 - 04:29 PM

Some really interesting comments about Connolly's lack of cursing during his folk club days but surely we've got some favourite swearers. That article I've just read on Kelman's language claimed, " It's a question not just of frequency, or inclination, but of ability, range and intensity."

Richard Pryor would be fuckin'tops for me.