Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Johnny J
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 03:24 AM

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned but the likes of Fairport Convention, Steeleye Span and others also included many Scottish and Irish tunes in their sets back in the day.

Also, Scottish and Irish bands would have included songs and tunes from each other's countries too. The Dubliners sang "Mormon Braes" for instance and The Bothy Band played "the Laird of Drumblair".
The JSD Band also played lots of tunes from Ireland and further beyond.

I think in recent years, traditional music has general become more ghettoised or, maybe, specialised (to use a less controversial term).
There now seems to be various groups, gatherings etc which like to focus on on certain genres in much more detail where as there used to be much more of a mixture and cross over. More "purist", I suppose, although the term has slightly different connations now and is not necessarily derogatory any more. There seems to be an exclusive project or gathering for just about every form of trad music in Edinburgh these days.

Yes, I do know that many of the younger bands still mix things up a bit, push the boundaries and so on but that's more a perfromance thing.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Johnny J
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 03:08 AM

There's also the Gary Innes request Show which is somewhat similar to what The Reel Blend used to be.... A bit corny at times, mind you.

I thought Take The Floor was still two hours? Sadly, thse programmes also suffer if there is a football match or other sport competing.

We still have a piping programme which is quite good but I miss Gary West. Also, one or two "countryish" things but I'm not sure if that counts or not.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 06:43 PM

Not sure where “over a dozen Scottish programmes” comes from, unless you are including the weekly country music and more pop orientated ones?
Radio Scotland has been progressively reducing its music output over the years, in favour of more chat shows and sport. Travelling Folk used to be on twice a week (same programme but repeated.) The Reel Blend was axed a few years back, and Take the Floor, for the dance band enthusiasts, is down to one hour. Then we have the Piping programme, but the rest doesn’t really fit the folk and trad genre, apart from some of what Iain Anderson plays.
But yes, we have BBC ALBA to be thankful for, albeit multiple repeats shown.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 11:17 AM

I'd argue that with England and Scotland, it goes both ways. It's pretty rare, in my experience, to hear English tunes in Scottish sessions.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 10:09 AM

Peter, I'm not suggesting for a moment that the Irish pushed their music unfairly. What I am trying to say is that in my experience during the 70s in England instrumental music seemed to usually mean Irish. Maybe that became a self-perpetuating loop - because we were playing Irish music we were perhaps more receptive to Irish bands. I just don't recall the Scottish bands having the same impact, at least not to the extent that their material was picked up in sessions.

English music at that time was largely forgotten and ignored until the English Country Music revival in the mid-70s, but I don't blame the Irish for that. Now English music sessions are widespread, but Irish music remains very popular. There is of course a large Irish diaspora here, and a strong network promoting Irish music and dance through Comhaltas and Irish social clubs, and that feeds into the wider session world and influences players with no personal Irish connections. The Scottish diaspora doesn't seem to have as strong a network, with the possible exception of pipe bands.

That doesn't explain why Scottish music still doesn't seem to have captured the English imagination in the same way. Having said that, Scottish tunes do sometimes get played in the sessions I attend, but I think sessions which are mainly Scottish and which aim to play in a proper Scottish style are comparatively rare in England.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Petet Laban
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 08:08 AM

I'll grant you though that in Ireland an infrastructure has been built, between the Willie Clancy Summer School setting a template for learning and passing on traditional music, ITMA, Arts Council grants, university courses etc that has been greatly beneficial to the traditional music community. Not sure I'd call it PR or how that would influence the nature of sessions outside the island but there you have it.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 07:06 AM

There seems to me, a bit of a tendency among some English folkies (and I am not pointing at you Howard) to dissmuss Irish music and say that the Irish pushed their music unfairly and that all things had been equal a lot of people would instead be playing/singing Englush, Scottish and what have you, material.

I don't think it's quite that simple. Thinking back to the seventies/early eighties, where I was at least, there was a lot on offer: the bands I mentioned above and other Scottish bands seemed on tour all the time. English bands too, I remember seeing the Etchingham Steam band at the time the Thompsons, various iterations of the Albion, Fairport offshoots and a wide variety of other English performers appearing alongside Irish bands at small venues, concerts and festivals. So I don't think it was for want of exposure that some types of music were to become more popular and widespread than others. Make of that what you will.

I do think the success of Irish bands lead to musicians in various aces to examine more local music. Within Ireland it became alright to examine local, Kerry, Donegal, Oriel, repertoires. And in other countries you had all sorts of groups exploring local music, the Netherlands and Flanders had Rum, Chimera, Wolverley, Perelaar and others, during the seventies I listened a lot to various French groups, Pierre de Grenoble,    Malicorne, La Bamboche, Gentian as well as some of the Breton music riding the wave Alan Stivell stirred up. So, really, it's not like this stuff wasn't there to be heard and taken up.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 04:15 AM

There are also lots of Scottish music programmes on BBC Alba, the Gaelic language TV channel which is available on BBC iPlayer

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 04:14 PM

I don't know if this has more to do with politics within the BBC than popularity but of all the regular folk on BBC radio there are two english programmes (Sunday-Tim Walker & Wednesday-Mark Radcliffe) a couple of Irish and Welsh programmes and over a dozen Scottish programmes.

---

Here's the BBC page which lists their current Weekly/Monthly/Seasonal radio programmes* (and a few one-offs).

- NB open the link in a browser; don't just click the link or it will try to open your 'Sounds' app and this doesn't provide the same information as the web page -
www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/category/music-folk?sort=title

*One regular programme missing from the page above :
Iain Anderson (country, folk, blues and soul) r2
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0074hkv/episodes/player

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 03:30 PM

I admit that "better PR" is a bit glib. Of course there were Scottish bands, but I don't recall them making much impression on the part of the folk scene in southern England I was involved in at that time, certainly not to the extent of the Irish bands. I'd certainly heard of those bands, but I don't think I heard their music much. There just seemed to be a lot more Irish music around then, whereas I heard very little Scottish, and that of course influenced what was played in sessions.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: meself
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 02:36 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't those Scottish bands play an awful lot of Irish tunes?

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 12:22 PM

I am not sure that 'better PR' isn't a bit lazy. As far as I remember there was a contingent of Scottish groups on the road doing their bit
The Tannahil Weavers, Battlefield Band, Ossian, Silly Wizzard, Five Hand reel etc were very much present during the later seventies and early eighties.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 10:53 AM

Quite simply, Irish music had better PR.

Before the rediscovery of English music around 1980 most of the tunes played in sessions in England were Irish. Bands like The Chieftains, Planxty, Bothy Band, De Danaan and others were popular. Scottish music on the other hand had a fairly low profile and was mainly associated with the White Heather Club and Scottish Country Dancing, and seemed old-fashioned by comparison. The exception was Shetland music, which had higher profile, probably largely thanks to Aly Bain (and which some would argue isn't really Scottish).

Nowadays the scope of music is much wider. Irish music remains popular, and not just amongst those with Irish antecedents, English music has had a revival, and French, Scandi, Klezmer and other genres can also be found. Scottish music still hasn't captured the English imagination and seems still to be mainly played by exiled Scots.

I also wonder whether the Scottish enthusiasm for playing in A is factor in a session world dominated by D/G melodeons?

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Johnny J
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 05:20 AM

Some good points, PMB.

Mind you, I think that's a large part of the problem today with landlords. They still don't want to encourage activities which might interfere with their business whether it be the football/sports fans watching the big screen or "family meals" and the like.

So many of the pubs were are quite "desparate" today as well.

However, I started drinking in the sixties(I shouldn't have been) but I can still recall some very nice pubs too. They often had nice snugs and lounges which were ideal for gatherings. Nowadays, most of these have been "knocked into" large rooms.

Glasgow and The West Central Belt may have been a bit different but there were certainly nice establishments "Up North" and in Edinburgh too when I visited. Also in Aberdeen, as I recall.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 04 Nov 24 - 03:02 PM

I'll add that in my experience, which is currently somewhat limited, Irish sessions in England seem to be slowly dwindling at the moment- a combination of pub closures, aggressive Sky TV, bistroisation, inept and uninterested landlords, and perhaps a reduction in migration from Ireland.

My memories of Irish pubs in the 70s/ early 80s are that if there was live music, it was likely to be either showbands, Irish and Western, or rather selfconsciously organised and curated trad sessions with a good deal of Comhltas about them. That would be rural- I also remember some cracking stuff in Cork city.

Quite right about GHB- there are other Scottish pipes and excellent they are too- but they were pretty uncommon until relatively lately. I can't remember seeing them in the wild before the late 80s. Back in the 70s, Pack Dyer in Manchester had a set of pipes- I can't remember whether GHB or Brian Boru- which he very occasionally brought out and played setpieces on. He'd thinned down the reeds to tame them a bit.

But back to the Scottish sessions. One point that comes to mind is that back in the day, Scottish city pubs could be pretty desperate places, and landlords might not have taken kindly to activities that got in the way of drinking.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Johnny J
Date: 04 Nov 24 - 12:24 PM

As I said, even "Here in Scotland", there weren't too many Scottish sessions in pubs.

Even in the likes Sandy Bells and other "folkie" establishments, it was mainly songs and what tune sessions there were tended to be mostly Irish.

A lot of this changed from the late seventies onwards with lots of Scottish groups coming to the fore.. e.g. JTB and Silly Wizard in Edinburgh + Hom Bru who moved there, The Battlefield Band, Ossian, The Tannies...later the likes of Ceolbeg and so on.

So, we had Scottish Sessions emerging in places like The Fiddlers Arms, Sandy Bells, West End and so on. Even then, there was lots of Irish music dominating overall.

Some festivals such as Keith, Newcastleton featured a lot of Scottish music too but I remember when Irish tunes were even very common up in Keith and Newcastleton was always a good mixture of Scottish, Northumbrian, and Irish.

I also think Scots Music Courses and the like also helped to encourage the spread of Scottish music too but that was more from the 90s onwards.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: meself
Date: 04 Nov 24 - 12:02 PM

An observation from a North American perspective .... Every village of 500 people in North America has a Chinese restaurant; every town of 1,000 has an Irish pub (e.g., "Kelly's", with a shamrock on each side of the name). Drinking establishments with a blatantly Scottish connection, OTOH, are few and far between. Scottish music has been mainly in the home, in dance halls/venues (e.g., parish halls, community centres, schoolhouses) as dance music, and in community concerts. My impression is that for many Scottish-style musicians - in N. Am., at least - there tends to be some discomfort with large-group/session playing, as opposed to solo, duo, trio situations.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Jim bainbridge
Date: 04 Nov 24 - 05:39 AM

a few thoughts

   Historically, Irish music was never played in pubs in Ireland, it was in peoples' homes. The Irish workers who rebuilt London postwar lived in lodgings and had no kitchens & the modern pub music trsdition was the result.
   Educate yourselves about this time by listening to Reg Hall's talk about Irish music in London at ITMA some years ago. on youtube, see 'Reg Hall-Irish in London'- I don't do lnks.

   I moved to West Cork in 1985, and there was very little Irish music in the Mizen area. What did exist was played in the pubs by largely English people who had come through the folk clubs & aware of the real Irish tradition, while the locals were not. It had its limitations but maybe those 'blow-ins' woke something up & there seems to be a thriving scene there nowadays.
So-called 'sessions' vary a lot, but, I do note that the Irish are much more into actual participation, e.g in 'Rosie's of Ballydehob or 'Arundels' in Schull, locals were much more inclined to join in, or shout out 'I'll give you a song' than they are in rural Scotland, where I now live

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 04 Nov 24 - 05:06 AM

PMB makes some good points, but I don't really agree with the observation about the highland bagpipes. I would agree that they're not suited to pub performance, but there are other types of Scottish pipes which are more suitable - the smallpipes, for example. The highland pipes constitute their own ecosystem, I think, which is separate from the session scene - that's to say, they're not really a 'folk' instrument like the fiddle or smallpipes. They're more of a courtly and martial instrument.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Johnny J
Date: 03 Nov 24 - 05:13 PM

" English players "

It all depends what you mean by English, of course.

Getting involved in discussions about ethnicity can be a risky process on these forums and it's easy to upset people. So I'll be careful.

I think it's highly likely that many of these players will be of Irish descent and/or musical friends. There are and have been "Irish Music Scenes" in both England and Scotland for many years. The core of these usually have an obvious connection with the homeland but also attract many local non Irish musicians.

As I mentioned earlier, there was far less of a Scottish scene even in Scotland itself as far as pub sessions went until relatively recently...it only really took off from the late seventies onwards.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Greenfield
Date: 03 Nov 24 - 02:20 PM

This is really helpful, all - PMB, that all makes a lot of sense. I was pondering this question due to the fact that Irish music sessions in England seem to be frequented (mainly, where I live) by English players - some very fine ones, no issue there - and while Scots tunes (more than Scots songs) are played too, it doesn't appear to hold quite the same sway. I wonder whether the English feel more comfortable performing Irish music as it's more of a global brand, than they are with Scottish music? Inarticulate musings from me, but enjoying this thread very much, many thanks.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 02 Nov 24 - 07:23 AM

Back in the 60s/70s, Irish migrant workers in England got together in pubs in the larger cities and played their music together. And they were most welcoming to others who wanted to join in, at a time when instrumental competence was generally frowned on in the English folk scene. Combine that with a much smaller Scots community, and the general pub- unfriendliness of GBH pipes, and that Scottish music and dance was "showcased" by atrocities such as the White Heather Club on TV.

Scottish song fared better, having a reasonable airing from the likes of Robin Hall and Jimmy McGregor, the Hootenanny TV program and stuff like that.

And of course the fact that more recently many people don't realise that Alba exists, and the music is great when the budget allows it and it's not shoved aside by East Fife v Stranraer in the fog. By the time bands like Ossian were around, folk had generally disappeared from mainstream media and become ghettoised as a minority interest at listener- unfriendly hours on radio.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Nov 24 - 06:51 AM

Even Eric Bogle's "No Man's Land", for instance.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 02 Nov 24 - 06:00 AM

Incidentally, quite a few "Irish" tunes have evolved from Scottish tunes anyway.

It seems to me that a lot of songs, such as Dirty Old Town, end up as being described as Irish, no matter where they come from.

DC

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 02 Nov 24 - 05:46 AM

Northumbrian tunes seem to be popular all over the place: as with Irish v Scottish crossover, there is also a sharing of tunes between Scots and Northumbrians, with the same tune having different titles on either side of the Border.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 02 Nov 24 - 04:48 AM

In my experience, while the traditional music culture is fairly healthy in Scotland, in Ireland it's even more so. That fact, combined with the fact that there's been more migration from Ireland to England than from Scotland to England, might have go some way towards proving an answer to the original question.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 24 - 09:19 PM

Quite so, Guest, but I meant in among those predominantly Irish and Scottish tunes. Incidentally, quite a few "Irish" tunes have evolved from Scottish tunes anyway.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Johnny J
Date: 01 Nov 24 - 06:57 AM

There was a time when you didn't even get that many Scottish tunes in sessions "Here in Scotland" but, thankfully, that has changed now.

There was always Scottish music, of course, but it wasn't a pub session thing.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 24 - 06:10 AM

Steve,
          Northumbrian tunes ARE actually English although many Southern folk do not know that

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 11:24 PM

Most sessions in England I've been to have been a good old healthy mix. I've even sneaked a few Northumbrian tunes in.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 08:24 PM

A Scottish friend who lives south of London often joined us in Scotland during the Zoom era: he delighted in playing strathspeys, as he said his English session friends couldn’t get their heads or fingers around all the “Scotch snaps”.
Up here, most instrumental sessions will include a good mix of Scottish, Irish, American and Scandi tunes - even the occasional English ones!

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 01:28 PM

Based on population numbers there should be more Yorkshire songs than Scottish ones.

Robin

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 11:55 AM

In the 60's there were folk clubs in and around London run by Scots and Pseudo Scots, yet apart from one, (guess which) not that many Scots songs were sung, apart from the obligatory Wild Mountain Thyme, and some folks though that was Irish :)

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 11:14 AM

I don't think we get as many Scots as Irish in England.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 10:06 AM

It may be brilliant, it is also not quite as popular?

Subject: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Greenfield
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 10:04 AM

Hello all

I was wondering if anyone had any interesting insights into why there are so many Irish music nights in England, but very few Scottish ones. Scottish music is brilliant!

Any thoughts most welcome.

Thanks,

G.