BS: Does the musician's character matter?

Subject: RE: BS: Does the musician's character matter?
From: Gary T
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 02:16 PM

Lots of food for thought here. The song, in and of itself, would normally stand or fall on its own merits. But...if a phrase in the song that would be perfectly innocent to most folks turned out to also be pedophile slang/code for something abominable, that would have to be considered. Some songs are very closely tied to the particular songwriter, others are of a more general or universal nature to where it doesn't seem to matter who wrote them.

I can see liking someone's songs but disliking the artist to the point of not intentionally contributing to his income (e.g., buying albums). And I can imagine being so revulsed with an artist so as to be embarassed to even sing the songs, an egregious example being "Here's a great song I want to sing/play for you--it was written by the person who raped you/your spouse/your kid."

Since we each have different criteria and threshholds as to what is unacceptable, there won't be universal agreement about which songs and artists we would shun. But I think the answer to the question is, to paraphrase Rick, "absolutely".

Subject: RE: BS: Does the musician's character matter?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 02:09 PM

Nabokov's Lolita is about an inappropriate relationship between a mature man and a very young girl. Although the subject matter is abhorrent and repulsive, he writes with such eloquence and style that the reader can appreciate the artistry of the book without compromising one's ethical and moral standards vis-a-vis pedophilia.

Subject: RE: BS: Does the musician's character matter?
From: GUEST,MoohTooh
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 01:52 PM

IMHO the persona matters.

I hope the echo of other's remarks is not too loud. When behavior, habits, addictions etc make a musician or artist unpleasant, or gives them a disagreeable character in the opinion of the listener, then yes the character matters. If this character is only self-destructive, it is not as important (to me) as when it's destructive of others and their surroundings. Taking into account the human qualities of forgiveness and temptation, the parameters of this are quite variable. Nonetheless, the PERSONA matters to the delivery of a song. (Example: Madonna singing American Pie, see another thread re that.) I might also point out that some very important and good songs have been written by people with qualities many find disagreeable, because it is that disagreeable experience/quality which gives the writer the ability/experience/knowledge to write the song in the first place.

Peace, MoohTooh (Mooh from elsewhere).

Subject: RE: BS: Does the musician's character matter?
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 01:37 PM

Tell ya' what Bob......Go sing "The Star Spangled Banner" since it has the same situation......Aren't the last two words...PLAY BALL?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Does the musician's character matter?
From: Catrin
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 01:33 PM

Mmmm, not sure about this one (when am I ever?) If we do use 'lifestyle', 'political beliefs' etc of the artist to influence our judgement of the piece of work that is created, then can we ever know enough to make an informed opinion? Perhaps we can never know enough about the artist anyway.

Some people who portray an image of purity, simplicity or whatever, might be just the opposite (but never get 'found out'). Somebody portrayed as being 'drug user' 'paedophile' or whatever could be falsely accused. Who am I to know?

But then again, is it possible to view the piece of work in isolation, away from our own prejudices etc.

Ed. you got me stumped.

Catrin

Subject: RE: BS: Does the musician's character matter?
From: dwditty
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 01:32 PM

First off, that a person may or may not use drugs or alcohol or cigarettes does not necessarily, in my book, determine whether or not they are of good character - they're judgement may be in question, but they may be fine people. But that's me. We all have personal lines drawn as to what constitutes character. I have to say that I can't think of any songs that I like by anyone I consider really evil - and I put pedophilia in that category. So I would say "yes" I think our understanding of the person's character does effect how we hear the music. This does not mean that music that I do not like is necessarily put out by a bad person - take Neil Diamond, for example. Probably a perfrectly nice guy, but....

Now I have to leave immediately and go listen to that Paul Brady version again.
dw

Subject: RE: BS: Does the musician's character matter?
From: Songster Bob
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 01:30 PM

Some comments. I'll put 'em in [brackets,] since we have no automatic way to mark what I just cut and pasted from Whistle-Stop's posting.

>There are a lot of musicians that I admire, but if I really knew them intimately, there would probably be something about most or all of them that I did not like or approve of. [True. Some of them are right bastards, when you come down to it. ] I reserve the right to like their work, regardless of other considerations. [Again, I agree, although it is sometimes hard to separate the one from the other, AND it's also sometimes the point that the artist is attempting to put his message into his work, and knowing about the artist makes the message-insertion more obvious. In other words, sometimes it's easier to see the method in the madness when you recognize the madness.]

What I think is interesting is that we exalt certain musicians because we admire their art, and deliberately try to distort their less-appealing characteristics to make them seem more appealing even in non-musical areas. Then we go even further when they die.

[Not only that, but -- and this ties in with so much of popular culture these days -- we also ascribe qualities to other aspects of their lives that may not be accurate. For example, you mention Lennon's politics below. Why did we even ask him what his political views were? Why did we care? Writers of "message" songs we should care about, but not pop songsters. I know, I know, the 60s turned EVERYONE into political pundits, and "freedom of opinion" came to mean "has to have an opinion," an equation I think we should negate as soon as we can.]

John Lennon is a great example -- talented guy, with a certain incisive wit and insight into the madness that is fame. But let's face it, the guy was a bit of a nut, and a lot of his political opinions were really half-baked.

[As a creature of his time, though, they were perfectly normal. That is, very much of the "truth" we took for granted then was poppycock, just as it is today (different days, different truths, same old song). And Lennon's "truths" were as half-baked as the rest of those on either side of the idealogical divide.]

For myself, I don't have any problem admiring certain things about the guy, and not admiring others. But there is a tendency to worship the man in all his various and complex aspects, which can really get pretty comical if you try to look at things rationally.

[See above.]

[The inability of the typical man or woman to think for him or herself is amazing, and the various media outlets pander to the quick and easy answer, which just encourages this.

The Big Lie technique in politics results in a "fill-in-the-blank" reaction on all sides. For example, what words do you "hear" preceding the word "liberal?" Because of the "Great Communicator's" ability to make the connection in our minds, we (US Americans, anyway) actually "hear" the words "tax-and-spend" preceding the word "liberal," even if we think of ourselves as liberals, as I do. A great effort to divide the populace in pavlovian fashion, and all for mere political advantage.

Damn. I'm depressing myself. Think I'll go sing a song. And I won't even care who wrote it!]

Bob Clayton

Subject: RE: BS: Does the musician's character matter?
From: Pseudolus
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 01:14 PM

I also think that the song is seperate from the composer but it really depends on what emotions the composer's life decisions evoke in me. I have two daughters and if I found out that the composer of a favorite song was a pedophile then I would probably not be able to sing the song again as much as I would like to. It would start a thought process in me that I would hate. If the composer was a drug addict or something along those lines, well, then, he/she is doing damage to themself and most likely I would be quite capable of singing the song.....unless the composer overdosed and left two children parentless or something like that.... It's amazing the effect two daughters can have on your own life decisions and opinions....hmmmm...

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Does the musician's character matter?
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 01:07 PM

I'm sorry if I've asked a question which has been dealt with recently in another thread. I don't have enough time to read everything here.

I'll go and read the Cat Stevens one.

Ed

Subject: RE: BS: Does the musician's character matter?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 12:58 PM

I agree that this does seem similar to the Cat Stevens thread.

There are a lot of musicians that I admire, but if I really knew them intimately, there would probably be something about most or all of them that I did not like or approve of. I reserve the right to like their work, regardless of other considerations. What I think is interesting is that we exalt certain musicians because we admire their art, and deliberately try to distort their less-appealing characteristics to make them seem more appealing even in non-musical areas. Then we go even further when they die.

John Lennon is a great example -- talented guy, with a certain incisive wit and insight into the madness that is fame. But let's face it, the guy was a bit of a nut, and a lot of his political opinions were really half-baked. For myself, I don't have any problem admiring certain things about the guy, and not admiring others. But there is a tendency to worship the man in all his various and complex aspects, which can really get pretty comical if you try to look at things rationally.

Subject: RE: BS: Does the musician's character matter?
From: rangeroger
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 12:57 PM

Ed,
why don't you ask your friend if she likes the music of Ray Charles and James Taylor? They were both heavy heroin users for a long time, but produced some excellent music.

I do believe a musician's character does matter,but I believe it shows in alot more things than just their use of drugs.I'm not trying to belittle the fact of their drug use,but I look at people like Madonna and Marilyn Manson and I can't stand them for what they are personnally.I won't listen to their music.

rr

Subject: RE: BS: Does the musician's character matter?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 12:54 PM

Well it depends of course on what each person sees as "good character" doesn't it? Regarding the Cat Stephens thread: I have no idea how Cat treats his fellow humans, so I'd have no reason to question the validity of his music, one way or another, except on the basis of whether I liked it or not (I love it)

Respect for other folks has been a biggy for me.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Does the musician's character matter?
From: Frankham
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 12:43 PM

Ultunately I do think it matters. We are all human beings and make mistakes that follow us sometime.

Lots of people who are "stars" are often misinterpreted and made ugly by the press. But they are just human beings subjected to everything we all are.

Some of these "stars" are paranoid and maybe there is a reason when you think of John Lennon.

It's a rough life. It's a crazy life. It's very hard work to be a pro musician/performer singer, actor or whatever. It's underpaid for the work you put in but you do it because you love it. There is always that period of beating your head against the stone wall before you become accepted by the public. This can make some crazy. It's like setting your guts out on stage and offering the audience to stomp on 'em.

When they stop stomping, you become accepted.

Musicians et. al. are no more mean or ornery than anyone else. And that might be a miracle in itself considering the gauntlet they have to run.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Does the musician's character matter?
From: DougR
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 12:43 PM

Hmmm. Rick, now that you have got that out of your system, could you elucidate a bit more? This Thread, it seems to me, is closely akin to the one on Cat Stevens a few days ago. I kind of gathered from your posting on that thread that you felt that the worth of the art outweighed any deficiences that the creator might have. Or perhaps you do not view the similarity of the two threads as I do.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Does the musician's character matter?
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 12:40 PM

Rick,

Can you expand a bit please?

Ed

(who's just heard Paul Brady's version of Arthur McBride for the first time, and thinks it's possibly the best thing in the whole world ever!)

Subject: RE: BS: Does the musician's character matter?
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 12:35 PM

I see it two different ways Ed.

I read a book. I like it....Guy's a pedophile it turns out. I'm likely to say, "Hmmm, but its still a good book."

I read a book written by a guy I KNOW is a pedophile. In this case, I doubt that I can seriously judge the book since my thoughts are already prejudiced.

And of course my prejudices differ from others. Drugs don't bother me, pedophiles do.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Does the musician's character matter?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 12:31 PM

God Damned Right it does.(sorry for the profanity...I don't usually express myself that way, and won't in the future)

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Does the musician's character matter?
From: Amergin
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 12:30 PM

The song is like the poem is always a part of the person who wrote it. At least that is if they feel enough for the piece. But if I found out something about the person who wrote a great song that I didn't like, that wouldn't make that song any less great...As usual I have no idea what the hell I'm talking about.....

Amergin....

Subject: RE: BS: Does the musician's character matter?
From: Mbo
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 12:23 PM

Well Ed, I was just listening to "Because" yesterday (no pun intended!) And I know it was written under the influence of drugs, as are many many pieces of music, from Classical music to modern rock. For me, it doesn't lessen the music at all, even though I despise narcotics and their effects. It's usually other things about the musician/singer/writer that tend to bug me.

--Mbo

Subject: Does the musician's character matter?
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 12:15 PM

Talking to a friend last night, the conversation turned to music, and my friend mentioned that one of her favourite ever songs is 'Because' by the Beatles.

In the course of the conversation, I mentioned that it (and this is fairly well documented) was written under the influence of heroin.

My friend (who has good reason to despise hard drugs) instantly changed her opinion on the song, and that had she known that 'fact,' she would never have liked the song to begin with.

So, my question is, does it matter what a musician, writer etc is like? Does the song stand alone, or is it 'part' of the person who wrote it?

To take the most extreme example that I can think of, if you discovered that your favorite song was written by a paedophile, would it change your opinion of how great the song was?

I'd be interested in any opinions

Ed