Music is 'The Word'?

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 11:21 AM

About what I woulda expected, Martin.

Some people approach the boundary between the material and the spiritual as an adventure; others bounce off it as hard as they can. It keeps them safe in the world of predictable solids.

A

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 11:16 AM

Talk about over-analyzing!

Is anal the root word of analyzing?

How about, "It's got a good beat and it's easy to dance to."

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 11:05 AM

MAck:

Preachers who don't know what spirituality is are being disingenuous or unqualified, one or the other. There is a universe of phenomena and concerns about them of which the core attributes are awareness and immateriality;non-locality and non-identification with specific material locations or forms. See defintions above, also; they seem pretty right to me.

A

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: treewind
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 10:59 AM

I appreciate that physical and electrical vibration aren't literally the same thing, but as we're all familiar with the concept of music coming down a wire and coming out as music again the other end it's true in some sense that something is interchangeable.

Anyway mysticism reaches the parts science cannot, and vice versa. The wave/particle duality thing is just one of those places where they reach all way round the conceptual universe in opposite directions and bump into each other on the other side.

"this is the extreme west"
"no, it's the extreme east"
etc...

And some very advanced theoretical physicists have admitted that their work is knocking on the door of mysticism. When you go too far beyond Newtonian mechanics and every complicated theory is found to have even more complicated exceptions you must start wondering if you've lost the way...

Similarly, you can get too wrapped up analysing the technicalities of music and foget to just sit back and enjoy the noise it makes and the feelings it creates.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 10:54 AM

I think the term spirituality means something different to each of us, so it's hard to come up with a one-liner definition. It can be anything from a powerful awareness to a warm fuzzy, "Tomorrow is the first day of the rest of your life" coziness. I would be hard pressed to give a definition that couldn't immediately, and rightfully be challenged. Spirituality to a minister is going to have a very different meaning than it is to an agnostic, although both may have spirituality in their lives.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Andrez
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 10:50 AM

I try to explain to my 10 year old daughter when she needs to be reminded that everything has its place in the scheme of things that it takes all colours to make a rainbow. Similarly with music it takes all kinds of vibrations to make one sound let alone a whole song.

So in this sense I dont have a problem with the rational/scientific contributions here or to Daylias original post although some of the sentiments expressed arent quite to my taste either. What I do want to take issue with for what its worth is the idea that "mysticism" and "science" are somehow mutually exclusive or that one or the other is bunk.

If you look at both systems they let us get closer to understanding something about what we are experiencing by being involved with music....... at what ever level or capacity. They way they do that differs as does the knowledge and understanding that we access through one or the other. Both ways of experiencing music are equally valid. I mean you can have a "rational", "logical" experience of music and thats fine but it would soon become boring if music just happened in your head and you never had the experience of getting carried away and just letting your feet and body respond to the music. At that level it really doesnt matter if you are dancing to the Sex Pistols, the Stones, Eminem or Stravinsky.

Daylia, I started this small datribe by just wanting to pass on a book that you might find interesting. Its called the Mysticism of Sound, the Sufi Message of Hazrat Inayat Khan. He talks about music as a metaphor for life and goes on from there. If you can get hold of it take what you want and then move on. Hopefully you will be a little richer for the experience.

By the way just to balance things a little find some books by Fritjof Capra or read about Chaos theory.......... different frames of reference to the one in your post but equally rich in what they can offer re a perspective on music and just maybe life in general.

One final thought though, for the sake of the kids you are teaching keep it simple and keep it fun. Let your students feel the music in their bodies and let them draw their own conclusions about it all from their own experience.

Nuff blah for now Bye.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 10:09 AM

I have a bad habit of sometimes being too terse. Perhaps I should have said that spirituality has ceased to have any universally recognized specific meaning. BTW, I've asked a couple of preachers exactly what the word means these days. Neither could answer.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 09:07 AM

I don't know any physicists who would say the whole universe is electrical energy; nor could it be sound vibrations, which by definition are molecular. That space and particles have a vibratory nature is real enough but the difference between science and mysticism, in part, is the rigor of the definitions.

But, mystics gain quite a lot for not using that rigor -- they traffic in ambiguity intentionally -- something physicists hate to do -- and thus leave logical holes big enough to drive a soul through.


A

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 08:01 AM

funny, tonight i was a session. theme was drinking songs. one guy was playing something faaantastic on the concertina. it was throbbing, waling and humming, and everyone was right there, nodding, rocking, eyes closed, listening. I found myself listening and thinking - what if someone from Planet X walked in and heard this for the first time ever - listening to how he was organising and controlling sound, creating moods and feelings, and how everyone was getting off on it.

it felt so good.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: treewind
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 07:05 AM

Amos and others : there's plenty of science in it, or not very far away at all!

This, as it happens, is where my name came from.
It was way back in December 1980, but of course it's timeless, and I think the first post to this thread is somewhere in the same domain.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: GUEST,KB
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 05:53 AM

Daylia - that's an interesting article - flavoursome stuff to muse upon, thanks for posting it. As I read it, it was using music as an analogy to express spiritual ideas - which works because they do seem so very much hand in hand. Like most inspirational writing it sets off all sorts of thoughts & associations, some of which feel like a universal truth and others of which will turn out to be complete red herrings. Its down to the reader to take from it what they will.

Regarding music being "nothing but background noise" - maybe that's not so damning a phrase. It does imply that its always around us. I like the idea of music being constantly available as background (ie part of the fabric of the environment) rather than being reserved for special occasions or being doled out as dollops of corporate pop.

Anyway - must get back to work & stop rambling on - but I'll be happily occupied musing away for hours now....

kris

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 11:07 PM

Eventually, someone probably should point out that "The Word" set to music is called gospel. There is certainly an enormous amount of music that is spiritual that isn't gospel, but when the phrase "The Word" is used the connection to Christ saying "I am the Word," is the first thing that would come to mind for Christians. If you're not talking about the "Word," what do you mean by the word?

The phrase "spirituals" also has a very specific meaning, referring to black songs from the time of slavery that aluded to escaping to freedom.

Words. They'll mess you up, every time.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: mg
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 10:49 PM

I liked it.. mg

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 10:45 PM

Mack:

I am inclined to demur -- I think it has very real and bounded meanings. Others, of course, may have their own variations, mixing the subject up with various icons and pictures, but that doesn't mean it has no meaning.

1. The state, quality, manner, or fact of being spiritual.

Spiritual:ADJECTIVE:
1. Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material. See synonyms at immaterial. 2. Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul. 3. Of, from, or relating to God; deific. 4. Of or belonging to a church or religion; sacred. 5. Relating to or having the nature of spirits or a spirit; supernatural.

(American Heritage)

Spirit: 1a. The vital principle or animating force within living beings. b. Incorporeal consciousness. 2. The soul, considered as departing from the body of a person at death. 3. Spirit The Holy Spirit. 4. A supernatural being, as: a. An angel or a demon. b. A being inhabiting or embodying a particular place, object, or natural phenomenon. c. A fairy or sprite. 5a. The part of a human associated with the mind, will, and feelings: Though unable to join us today, they are with us in spirit. b. The essential nature of a person or group. ...

A

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Cluin
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 10:44 PM

"'spirituality' has ceased to have any specific meaning, and thus has none at all"


Even accepting the first part of that statement, the rest doesn't follow. Spirituality is an individual thing, always was. We are each alone with our respective experiences and thoughts of it. It's a changing thing anyway, or else it dies. And if music is a part of that for any of us, so much the better. For us, For the music. And for our appreciation of it.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 10:36 PM

In the last couple of generations 'spirituality' has ceased to have any specific meaning, and thus has none at all. No matter, music is superior to whatever passes as spirituality. Except, perhaps, bad music, Or inept.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Cluin
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 10:11 PM

"You are sad," the Knight said in an anxious tone: "let me sing you a song to comfort you."

"Is it very long?" Alice asked, for she had heard a good deal of poetry that day.

"It's long," said the Knight, "but it's very, very beautiful. Everybody that hears me sing it - either it brings the tears to their eyes, or else -"

"Or else what?" said Alice, for the Knight had made a sudden pause.

"Or else it doesn't, you know. The name of the song is called 'Haddocks' Eyes.' "

"Oh, that's the name of the song, is it?" Alice said, trying to feel interested.

"No, you don't understand," the Knight said, looking a little vexed. "That's what the name is called. The name really is 'The Aged Aged Man.' "

"Then I ought to have said 'That's what the song is called'?" Alice corrected herself.

"No, you oughtn't: that's quite another thing! The song is called 'Ways And Means': but that's only what it's called, you know!"

"Well, what is the song, then?" said Alice, who was by this time completely bewildered.

"I was coming to that," the Knight said. "The song really is 'A-sitting On A Gate': and the tune's my own invention."

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 08:34 PM

The spirituality of music is found in between the notes, Fugs, folk, Bach or rock.

Poppa, I made the point because the article Daylia linked to is called  "The Conscience of Love: Esoteric Perspectives on a Science of Consciousness" which I found over-reaching. You don't achieve a "science of consciousness" by spreading grandiose poetic opinions and speculations couched as fact. As my favorite scientist says in such circumstances, "Ba-a-a-a-d scientist....".

A

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Snuffy
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 07:42 PM

Metaphysical bodhrans are the best sort

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Tinker
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 07:39 PM

Daylia, when you find words that resonate for you about what is otherwise as undefinable as the Spirit hang on to them. It seems to be a very tangible time here on Mudcat... oh well...
Music calls all of us here or we wouldn't be posting at Mudcat. Some songs are mired in the mud, others reach for the stars, just keep singing.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 06:19 PM

Amos - what's science got to do with metaphysics? "Meta" = "beyond"; that is, *daylia*'s message discusses something that is neither proven nor disproven by science.

I'm just putting my little $0.02-worth into this thread to endorse the original post and counter all the negative responses.

And I'd say yes, even the Fugs's music offers a spiritual element. Just because it's irreverent -- disrespectful of some estabished bullshit values -- doesn't make in any less spiritual. Insofar as it tends to reveal some kind of truth, I think that even the most iconoclastic art can be of great spiritual value (even where there's an obvious, er, carnal element).

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Cluin
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 06:03 PM

Nothin' wrong with feelin' good, folks.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 05:56 PM

well, upon reading that, I felt the rhythms of my soul corrusulate with sanguine perspicacity! The heirarchical layers of chordal vicissitudes that normally inundate me with Karmic torpor were blissfully eradicated in a swirl of Logi in all their planetary splendor. In fact, it still permeates my aura as I type this...

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 05:48 PM

Actually the "bird is the word"

Everybody's talking about the bird.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 05:46 PM

Gentlemen:

Thanks for the kind opinion, but I say what I mean. I think there may be some high metaphysical ground where music and spirituality are one, but I don't see anything scientific in thinking so!

"In the beginning was the Word; and the word was misunderstood...."


A

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 05:44 PM

Yep, right on, right on.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Ed.
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 05:40 PM

You should have said too polite

Indeed I should have, Martin.

Being poor at computer text entry, means only that, however.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 05:36 PM

Ed

You should have said too polite.

Anyway, This is truly stuff that originated from the tower of babble.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Ed.
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 05:28 PM

Amos was being nice.

What he really meant was:

Seldom have I seen so much unmitigated nonsense!

But he's to polite to say it...

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 05:27 PM

Do you think music by "The Fugs" fits this spirituality?

Another "sunshine pumped up your ass" thread?

Get lilly high.

Subject: RE: Music is 'The Word'?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 05:22 PM

Very pretty, Daylia!! Not much science to it, but certainly inspiring pleasantries.

A

Subject: Music is 'The Word'?
From: *daylia*
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 12:35 PM

I'm home battling the flu today, with lots of time on my hands to ponder two of my very favorite topics: Music and Spirituality. Seems they go hand in hand so well, almost to the point where sometimes I'm convinced that Music IS Spirituality!

These ideas I found on the net yesterday are some of the most beautiful I've ever read on the subject of Music, Spirituality and the "mechanics" of Creation. I'd like to share them with the musicians at Mudcat, not because I'm trying to convince anyone they are "fact" or "science", but because I find them so inspiring.

Ideas like this reinforce, for me, just how very vital and important -- and mystical -- music really is. I feel even more motivated as a teacher of music to "do right" by my students, to present the study of music in a way that inspires not only a great love and respect for the art, but an deep desire to continue learning, growing and evolving as a musician throughout life.

I've read comments (from non-musicians) here on Mudcat that music is nothing but "background noise". That hurts, because I know music is so much more! Music is sacred don'tcha know ... the very highest form of "magic" ...

Anyway, here's what I wanted to share:

"Every unit of consciousness is forging a vehicle of sound in the fires of existence in order to participate in the great symphony in the heavens.

In the book Glamour, a World Problem, we read that every human being is "perfecting an instrument whereby the music of the soul and, later, the musical quality of the Hierarchy (the kingdom of superhuman lives) can be heard....sound permeates all forms; the planet itself has its own note or sound; each minute atom also has its sound; each form can be evoked into music and each human being has his peculiar chord and all chords contribute to the great symphony, which the Hierarchy and Humanity are playing, and playing now. Every spiritual group has its own tune....and the groups which are in process of collaborating with the Hierarchy make music ceaselessly.

This rhythm of sound and this myriad of chords and notes blend with the music of the Hierarchy itself and this is a steadily enriching symphony; as the centuries slip away, all these sounds slowly unite and are resolved into each other until some day the planetary symphony which Sanat Kumara [the Lord of the World] is composing will be completed and our Earth will then make a notable contribution to the great chords of the solar system—and this is a part, intrinsic and real, of the music of the spheres.

Then, as the Bible says, the Sons of God, the planetary Logoi, will sing together. This...will be the result of...the correct relation between all parts..."

Love is the energy that ensures this correct relation. Through the power of its own commanding silence, it orchestrates the spiralling, musical relationship between the poles of spirit and matter, regarding every separated unit of consciousness that lies between them as instrumental to the symphony of the whole. As each of us awakens to the conscience of love, we take our place in this conducting force and the great Law of Love ..."

And here's the rest of the article:   The Conscience of Love: Esoteric Perspectives on a Science of Consciousness

Enjoy, and I look forward to reading any comments,

daylia